Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Chinderblock

Whip It Good
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
27,079
Location
Warp Zone
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
NNID
Irene4
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
The significance is marketing. Simply put, he's the one the Pokemon company is gunning for so he's the one that's probably getting in.
He was literally the only one of the three final forms to have concept art of him hanging out with Ash and co. There's no question he was intended to be important to the anime itself.

Marketing is a big factor. This doesn't mean Sakurai would've chosen him at the time for that alone, but it's definitely an important factor that heavily puts him above the other two. All 3 have great moveset potential, though only Grass Owl and Fire Cat have very easy to work with designs for Smash. Primarina would require a lot of work to think of, and making the idea click really fast(like what happened with Greninja) is very unlikely. It's not easy to imagine a character like that moving in Smash. Two bidedals with very clear and easy to see moves? Much easier choices. Incineroar definitely has the leg up among the other 3, with Decidueye blatantly having a good thing to look at, and the Merfokl... not exactly having an easy body design to remotely work with.

I could imagine Primarina as a Pokeball, though. That's pretty easy to program and keep the characterization. Characters like it aren't really designed to work well in Smash. Certain other games like Pokken would probably be more fitting, as it uses way more out there designs for playable, where Smash is far more simplified on how it works.
 

Deoxys911

Laughs and Logic
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
1,588
Location
Birth Island, FL
NNID
Deoxys911
Actually, yes, Incineroar WOULD bring something that Smash doesn't have, aka a Wrestler-type character.


The closest thing we have is Bowser, and even then, besides from a few moves, I'd HARDLY call Bowser a Zangief-esque character.
We got :ultisabelle::ultkrool::ultdaisy::ultchrom::ultrichter::ultdarksamus: and "doesn't bring any diversity" is still an argument?
Haha, don't worry, I was just making a joke about how we have so many buff fire-powered characters, I wasn't actually criticizing either Ken and Incineroar as character choices or the roster's level of diversity. I look forward to playing as an entire squad of firefighters in Ultimate!
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
13,622
I mean, it's easy cherry-picking when you include echo fighters, an almost echo fighter, and K. Rool who actually is unique move-wise and brings something new to the table.
We are talking about an echo and a unique character move-set wise, so I can't see what's cherry picking.
 

TheLastJinjo

Banned (6 Points)
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
9,220
Location
Luigi
I mean, it's easy cherry-picking when you include echo fighters, an almost echo fighter, and K. Rool who actually is unique move-wise and brings something new to the table.
That's not cherry picking. He/she included echo fighters because they are PLAYABLE CHARACTERS.

Cherry picking would be NOT counting echo fighters when they count as fighters just as much as anyone in the game.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
15,073
Location
Washington
Ash's Torracat is more or less Rocky at this point.


Started in the slums, grew up into a Torracat, gained a 'friendly' rivalry with the Masked Royale's Incineroar and now wants to beat it in a fight.



I fully expect it to finish it's 'arc' by evolving into Incineroar mid match and SUPLEX-ing the damn thing.
 
Last edited:

Guynamednelson

Smash Lord
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
1,600
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
NNID
Nelson340
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
Watch the anime.

Incineroar appears all the damn time in it as a 'rival' Pokemon to Ash, and Ash has a Torracat that'll evolve soon enough. It's the anime's Gen 7 Greninja.
I don't watch the anime and I still think it sounds like you don't.
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
13,622
Haha, don't worry, I was just making a joke about how we have so many buff fire-powered characters, I wasn't actually criticizing either Ken and Incineroar as character choices or the roster's level of diversity. I look forward to playing as an entire squad of firefighters in Ultimate!
My bad. Though, again, we hardly have an abundance of them.
 

CosmicQuark

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,308
I really don't see the harm in Ken and Incineroar being revealed in the same trailer, frankly.


"They're not from the same series!"


So what? We have characters cross over into trailers despite them not being from the same series.


I legit do not see a world where Ken, the OG echo doesn't get to be in a CG trailer if Richter did, frankly. As a 'third-party' character, he's treated moreso as an honored guest than a regular Echo.
There's no harm in it, but it would be very different from anything we've seen. Not only are they from different series, but one's first party and the other is third party--there's legalities involved in every single aspect of not just the character, but how they're advertised and granular details we wouldn't be aware of. I would not have wanted to be in the meetings discussing the E3 Direct, of how and what order characters would have been shown off. With the legalities involving third parties, it's difficult to know what would be important in the negotiations, so I can see it going either way, but leaning towards them not being revealed in the same trailer.
 

TheLastJinjo

Banned (6 Points)
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
9,220
Location
Luigi
Ash's Torracat is more or less Rocky at this point.


Started in the slums, grew up into a Torracat, gained a 'friendly' rivalry with the Masked Royale's Incineroar and now wants to beat it in a fight.



I fully expect it to finish it's 'arc' by evolving into Incineroar mid match and SUPLEX-ing the damn thing.
Litten's evolution line is my favorite in in the game so I'd be glad to have it, even though I dislike Incineroar's design initially. But, I think it's kind of pretentious to complain about the design of a Pokemon so I'm gonna be positive and warm up to Incineroar's design.
 

Glaciacott

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
1,442
Location
Skyworld
3DS FC
1504-6058-2691
We are talking about an echo and a unique character move-set wise, so I can't see what's cherry picking.
You seem to be responding to the idea of Incineroar not being diverse enough as being a weak argument, correct? Detracting from that by making it seem like recent newcomers aren't unique is inconsistent when you're ignoring the fact that Inklings, Ridley, K. Rool and Simon/Richter all added something new to Smash and so far only echoes and Isabelle piggy back from what was there already.

If you were arguing something different, then my apologies.

TheLastJinjo TheLastJinjo echoes hardly fit into the incineroar discussion given that by design they are meant to NOT be unique. The very reason they are called Echo Fighters is to point out to fans that these characters are meant to be clones and not counted as unique additions.
 
Last edited:

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
13,622
You seem to be responding to the idea of Incineroar not being diverse enough as being a weak argument, correct? Detracting from that by making it seem like recent newcomers aren't unique is inconsistent when you're ignoring the fact that Inklings, Ridley, K. Rool and Simon/Richter all added something new to Smash and so far only echoes and Isabelle piggy back from what was there already.

If you were arguing something different, then my apologies.
K.Rool's all specials are pretty much alternate versions of other characters' (except his neutral B, it takes from both :ultbowserjr: and :ultkingdedede:) and he's still moves very uniquely and brings a diverse fighting style.

So, just because "he's just a fire fighter", we can't say Incineroar doesn't feel unique or bring anything new to the table.

Same with Ken, we already have echoes, he doesn't need to be unique just because he revealed later.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
GRimer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
29,845
Location
This Thread
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
NNID
OpossumGuy
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Speaking of punching bags. Who are going to be yours?

Mine will be

:ultbayonetta::ultbowserjr::ultcloud::ultcorrin:
I have kind of a love-hate relationship with :ultfalcon: lol.

Look at this veritable criminal. Whenever he gets a grand introduction, something ends up on the verge of death.

Melee: Vehicular Homicide
Brawl: Genocide of Indigenous Species
Smash 4: Two Counts of Attempted Regicide.

The man has to be stopped. We've let him get far too powerful. So to level the playing field, whenever I use :ultchrom:, :ultfalcon: is the designated punching bag. :p
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
13,622
I think Incineroar, if he's actually in, would be arguably one of the more unique characters this time, frankly.


Smash has gone on for 20 years now without a "Dedicated Wrestler" character, while most fighting games have one from the start, like Zangief.


We've been sorely missing this archetype for a long, long time.
Not saying anything against your argument, but it's interesting how many suplexes we have, considering none of them are really wrestlers::4kirby::4metaknight::4charizard::4bowser:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I dunno about you guys, but I think now we're probably gonna get the blowout of Smash info much earlier than I thought. There's been some pretty exciting stuff coming out of the Nintendo sides of things literally just tonight, with the confirmation of a new Xenoblade game and a new Switch model coming in 2019. If this train wants to keep going, I can see probably a mid-Smash Direct/presentation so we know all the fighters before November and the release comes, would tie in with Sakurai's statements on development finishing up.
 

Zinith

Yoshi is Thicc in S P I R I T
Premium
Rankings Team
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
18,090
Location
All around you, awaiting to consume your soul
Switch FC
SW 4624 0132 9722
Well, they are my thin- oh, you mean as fighting style!

Well, I play :ultdoc: and :ultlittlemac: occasionally but that's it. Most of the character I play are pretty light: :ultzelda::ultjigglypuff::ultmewtwo::ultpalutena: etc.
My boi is actually heavier than people think due to his air speed. But yeah, you can say that (it's both for me :yoshi:)
 

Deoxys911

Laughs and Logic
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
1,588
Location
Birth Island, FL
NNID
Deoxys911
So, just because "he's just a fire fighter", we can't say Incineroar doesn't feel unique or bring anything new to the table.
All kidding aside, it really makes no sense to say that Incineroar wouldn't bring something new to the table. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are no character who are primarily wrestlers on the roster currently, and that's obviously a hugely important element of Incineroar's character. Actually, when you think about it not only will they bring something new, but they'll represent a major fighting style that has yet to be represented in a fighting game with a notable focus on new characters that play in unique ways compared to other characters.
 

Glaciacott

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
1,442
Location
Skyworld
3DS FC
1504-6058-2691
K.Rool's all specials are pretty much alternate versions of other characters' (except his neutral B, it takes from both :ultbowserjr: and :ultkingdedede:) and he's still moves very uniquely and brings a diverse fighting style.

So, just because "he's just a fire fighter", we can't say Incineroar doesn't feel unique or bring anything new to the table.

Same with Ken, we already have echoes, he doesn't need to be unique just because he revealed later.
What special in the game currently behaves like the blunderbuss? Or the crown? Or his up B? For that matter, do we even know how his Up B functions? We've hardly seen it.

And true, we don't know how Incineroar would work, there's a possibility it would be unique. But it's not hard to understand the concern of it just being too similar to other characters when
1) we have so many fire projectiles already with different functions
2) we have so many close-quarter attacks with fire properties
3) we have so many heavy-ish large characters with command grabs with different functions

Everyone says "but there's no wrestler in Smash yet" but I want to legitimately hear how a grappler/wrestler would differ from characters that exist right now that work command grabs and grab combos into their moveset, like Ganondorf.

So sure, while with enough imagination it is possible for Incineroar to be unique, it's much easier to see uniqueness in something like an owl ghost archer than anchors enemies with its shadow, a quadruped wolf that manipulates rocks, a water siren that sets up bubbles and can explode them remotely, etc.

Incineroar's not "diverse" enough? The pickiness just can't be quenched.
People have different opinions, it IS possible to accept that and simply let them be. While to you the current roster expectations may be enough, it's possible other people have different interests, like Pokemon fans wanting to see more interesting representation of Gen 7 or Game design fans wanting to see more wild/unique fighter archetypes. Or in my case, both of those.
 
Last edited:

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
13,622
All kidding aside, it really makes no sense to say that Incineroar wouldn't bring something new to the table. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are no character who are primarily wrestlers on the roster currently, and that's obviously a hugely important element of Incineroar's character. Actually, when you think about it not only will they bring something new, but they'll represent a major fighting style that has yet to be represented in a fighting game with a notable focus on new characters that play in unique ways compared to other characters.
Yeah, I liked Smash For gave us a boxer and a real martial artist and people thought they'd be boring, too. I disagree.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
GRimer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
29,845
Location
This Thread
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
NNID
OpossumGuy
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
I'm gonna get mucho mucho hate for this but


Decidueye's design is cool, but when it comes to diversity in movesets, Smash isn't lacking in 'Archers', while it doesn't have a single wrestler.
If Bowser's Flying Slam doesn't count as Bowser "being a wrestler," Link and Pit's neutral specials don't count as them "being archers."
 

TheLastJinjo

Banned (6 Points)
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
9,220
Location
Luigi
People have different opinions, it IS possible to accept that and simply let them be. While to you the current roster expectations may be enough, it's possible other people have different interests, like Pokemon fans wanting to see more interesting representation of Gen 7 or Game design fans wanting to see more wild/unique fighter archetypes. Or in my case, both of those.
My opinion is that other people have bad opinions. Now accept that, let me be, and never criticize this statement, because it's a different opinion.
 
Last edited:

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
14,090
Location
Redgrave City
NNID
Nero
Switch FC
Devil Hunter
Incineroar is a heel wrestler. He could use dirty tactics like crotch shots and spitting into opponent's eyes.
Also he attacks with chairs. If that's not unique enough for you I don't know what is.
He could.
The question is, will he really?

You call him a heel wrestler, but how do you convey that in a fighting video game?
In real life a heel would cheat, trash-talk, and use outside items, but you can't really do that in a fighting game outside of something like demeaning taunts.
I mean hell, canonically, his dirtiest attack is probably just throat chop.

In short: Machamp shoulda been Mr. Wrestler:

Cannot think of a single thing Incineroar would do compared to Machamp. He even has a goddamn lariat.
 
Last edited:

Chinderblock

Whip It Good
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
27,079
Location
Warp Zone
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
NNID
Irene4
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
I'm gonna get mucho mucho hate for this but


Decidueye's design is cool, but when it comes to diversity in movesets, Smash isn't lacking in 'Archers', while it doesn't have a single wrestler.
Smash doesn't have a moveset dedicated to archery either. They're about as archery-based as Bowser is wrestling-based. A tiny slew of moves(and that's all combined) and that's it.

So we do lack a dedicated Archer too. Just like we lack a dedicated Wrestler.
 

Starbound

Worlds Apart, But Still Together.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
4,082
Location
Canada
I dunno about you guys, but I think now we're probably gonna get the blowout of Smash info much earlier than I thought. There's been some pretty exciting stuff coming out of the Nintendo sides of things literally just tonight, with the confirmation of a new Xenoblade game and a new Switch model coming in 2019. If this train wants to keep going, I can see probably a mid-Smash Direct/presentation so we know all the fighters before November and the release comes, would tie in with Sakurai's statements on development finishing up.
Wait, what?
 

Noipoi

Howdy!
Premium
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
18,952
Location
The Galar Region
Switch FC
SW: 7210-0785-3330
What special in the game currently behaves like the blunderbuss? Or the crown? Or his up B? For that matter, do we even know how his Up B functions? We've hardly seen it.

And true, we don't know how Incineroar would work, there's a possibility it would be unique. But it's not hard to understand the concern of it just being too similar to other characters when
1) we have so many fire projectiles already with different functions
2) we have so many close-quarter attacks with fire properties
3) we have so many heavy-ish large characters with command grabs with different functions

Everyone says "but there's no wrestler in Smash yet" but I want to legitimately hear how a grappler/wrestler would differ from characters that exist right now that work command grabs and grab combos into their moveset, like Ganondorf.

So sure, while with enough imagination it is possible for Incineroar to be unique, it's much easier to see uniqueness in something like an owl ghost archer than anchors enemies with its shadow, a quadruped wolf that manipulates rocks, a water siren that sets up bubbles and can explode them remotely, etc.



People have different opinions, it IS possible to accept that and simply let them be. While to you the current roster expectations may be enough, it's possible other people have different interests, like Pokemon fans wanting to see more interesting representation of Gen 7 or Game design fans wanting to see more wild/unique fighter archetypes. Or in my case, both of those.
Is that what you really think?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top