Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Frostwraith]

There's definitely going to be a new direct, I think, because they said they'll be showing off every available fighter before release and they also want to talk about the new mode.
Wouldn't be able to do either of those things in a general direct.

General direct was pretty much the best place to announce Isabelle haha. And to be fair, I already prefer her to the Villager.

Right. There are plenty of details yet to be known:
1. The remaining characters to be revealed regardless if they're unique newcomers or echo fighters.
2. Overview and explanation of new and returning modes besides what's known already. There hasn't been a focus on single player content all that much ever since the game was announced.
3. Likewise, we don't know much about side content such as the trophy collection, whether there will be unlockable music and so on.
4. Online play is another feature that hasn't been talked about and, for all we know, there could be new additions to it.

There's much we still don't know about the game, but I suppose these and potentially more features will be broken down in a new Smash Ultimate presentation. Maybe with a DLC tease as well...

 

[Opossum]

You don't need other people to say it wasn't well crafted. Nintendo said it themselves. They had to tell us to 'wait til the end.'
Not only does that show it was not a fakeout (as we were told to wait for the 'fake out,') but it is Nintendo admitting that they did not craft it in a way to let you know to stay until the end.

In art there is a power in the idea of show, not tell. And them telling us what to do ruined the power of the end of the direct, because it was just not well crafted enough at the end to show us to stay until the end.
They knew it was not made to their level.

They had a very good reason to stress "wait til the end." Nintendo fans tend to be impatient and reactionary.

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but ever since the Switch launched, Animal Crossing fans have been VERY vocally disappointed online whenever a Nintendo event happens and Animal Crossing is a no-show. A vocal segment were also disappointed that Smash got its own Direct not long after having a huge chunk of E3 dedicated to it. So when said fans get led to believe an Animal Crossing game is coming, only for it to be a Smash trailer, they were bound to be upset. They may have even rage quit the video thinking Smash was a "one more thing" only to be met with a confirmation of a new Animal Crossing.

"Wait till the end" is far from a slapdash transition. It's helping to ensure Animal Crossing diehards don't rage for no reason.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

King K.Rool is just a semi clone, sorry I don't make the rules:
He has DDD's Dash Attack, NAir and Neutral B
Ganon's FAir and DAir
Mii Brawler's FSmash
Bowser's BAir
Simon's Side B
Duck Hunt's Up B(it works the same, only the animation is different)
And most importantly, Ike's Down B

That doesn't make him a semiclone.

Spoiler

It makes him the Frankenstein's Monster of Smash Ultimate!

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Anyone who doesn't think Isabelle did at the very least decent on the Ballot is lying to themselves. She got a Mii costume! People wanted her, just not necessarily every smash fan, so what.

But Ken literally is a Ryu echo fighter

No, he confirmed that Ken Was an Echo. He was unsure if Isabelle Was an echo or not...

I feel like the reason he doesn't know much about echoes is because most of them were late additions, but Ken probably wasn't, not only is he 3rd party, but he's like the posterboy for clone characters, so when they drew up the echoes concept (which I'm certain was part of the project plan) Ken would be one of the first names on the list.

I haven't really played SFV where he's apparently changed quite a bit, but throughout the history of the series Ken has pretty much always been a clone, it'd almost be out of character for him to not be one.

Did he really say that? I'll have to dig for it then.

It makes zero sense for him not to be an echo... Maybe he was one of the first echoes designed. That's what I assumed Isabelle was and why he knew of her.

Ok so my predictions are Pokemon (Inceniroar probably but hoping for Decideueye), Bandanna Waddle Dee and Geno for unique.
Impa, Ken and Shadow for echoes.

Finally, I'm holding hope for Skull Kid and Dixie Kong </3

 

[Pyra]

Right. There are plenty of details yet to be known:
1. The remaining characters to be revealed regardless if they're unique newcomers or echo fighters.
2. Overview and explanation of new and returning modes besides what's known already. There hasn't been a focus on single player content all that much ever since the game was announced.
3. Likewise, we don't know much about side content such as the trophy collection, whether there will be unlockable music and so on.
4. Online play is another feature that hasn't been talked about and, for all we know, there could be new additions to it.

There's much we still don't know about the game, but I suppose these and potentially more features will be broken down in a new Smash Ultimate presentation. Maybe with a DLC tease as well...

My initial prediction for the next Smash Direct was October (and I won't change the post that I made it in) because it's 2 months from release and 2 months after the last Smash direct, but I think it would make sense for it to be in November, because surely the game would be pretty much done and in the DLC planning phases by then (if they're doing that) so it would definitely be something to tease.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Here is how I think the remaining reveals are going to be put:
-One trailer is randomly dropped in October after being annunced a couple of days before. Just like they did with Robin and Lucina.
-Another Direct is shown mid November, giving release date for some early 2019 titles like Yoshi and Fire Emblem. Another character is revealed there, and after that they announce the final Smash Direct.
-During the final Smash Direct they reveal the last two unique newcomers and all the remaining echoes.

That would mean 72 characters plus echoes.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

My two main takes after this Direct.

1: Isabelle being a Villager semi-clone shows semi-clone newcomers are still very much on the table, despite my doubts Sakurai would do them again after how far he went with Smash 4's newcomers to make them as unique as possible. As such, Dixie Kong could be quite a bit more probable to be the Diddy semi-clone she is mostly desired to be, instead of being just a Diddy Echo. However if the newcomer amount is on the lower end, the question remains if Sakurai would put the resources to doing two non-Echo newcomers from the same series, and the fact could remain that Dixie just got too overshadowed by K. Rool and was simply leftover, leaving her thrown in as an Echo.

2: I've noticed Vergeben's characters are being revealed roughly in order, I'm thinking for the next reveal we could be getting a Robin/Lucina style reveal with Incineroar and Ken.

 

[DJ3DS]

King K.Rool is just a semi clone, sorry I don't make the rules:
He has DDD's Dash Attack, NAir and Neutral B
Ganon's FAir and DAir
Mii Brawler's FSmash
Bowser's BAir
Simon's Side B
Duck Hunt's Up B(it works the same, only the animation is different)
And most importantly, Ike's Down B

We know basically nothing about how his Up B works just yet and whether or not it has a hitbox. This said, I otherwise agree with your point.

Isabelle does share some surface level similarities with Villager in a few moves and perhaps in a general aesthetic, but no more than you'd really expect given they're from the same series. Perhaps more interesting to consider are the moves that are different and we don't know about. She appears to lack Villagers Tree and Lloid Rocket specials, and she may not have his forward and backward aerials either. If so, she's lost most of the core constituents of Villagers style of gameplay, and she's going to end up playing a fair bit differently as a result.

 

[Rockaphin]

You underestimate Ken's "semi-clone-ess".

I have a hard time seeing Ken use a collarbone breaker or a joudan sokutogeri.

Perhaps Sakurai thought so likewise?

I agree as well, however, Ken does have some pretty similar moves that could "work" as a replacement of the two in Smash.

• Ken's Heavy Kick in Street Fighter Alpha 3, while not as iconic as the Joudan Sokutogeri, has a somewhat similar animation and could work for his Forward Smash.

• Ken also has a couple of overheads that could replace the collarbone breaker. Admittedly, those are pretty different in animation.

• Ryu's Up-Air would probably have to change to stay true to Ken's character. I'd imagine they could use Ken's aerial light kick since it's one of his only attacks that'd fit as an Up-Air.

I seriously doubt Ken will be a complete Echo of Ryu. I'm thinking he'll be more like Dark Samus or Chrom. Maybe even more unique than them.

 

[Chandeelure]

Is there a place where I can read all the documented "leaks", DaybreakHorizon ?

 

[DraginHikari]

I'm happy Smash Speculation is fun again before yesterday everyone reached a general agreement who was getting in.

Now it looks like its been thrown out the window.

This community enjoys it's bandwagons no doubt.

They had a very good reason to stress "wait til the end." Nintendo fans tend to be impatient and reactionary.

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but ever since the Switch launched, Animal Crossing fans have been VERY vocally disappointed online whenever a Nintendo event happens and Animal Crossing is a no-show. A vocal segment were also disappointed that Smash got its own Direct not long after having a huge chunk of E3 dedicated to it. So when said fans get led to believe an Animal Crossing game is coming, only for it to be a Smash trailer, they were bound to be upset. They may have even rage quit the video thinking Smash was a "one more thing" only to be met with a confirmation of a new Animal Crossing.

"Wait till the end" is far from a slapdash transition. It's helping to ensure Animal Crossing diehards don't rage for no reason.

Frankly, I think it would of been better if they had done it the other way around and announced the Switch Animal Crossing first then move into Isabelle's not tried to tie the two so closely together.

 

[Frostwraith]

My initial prediction for the next Smash Direct was October (and I won't change the post that I made it in) because it's 2 months from release and 2 months after the last Smash direct, but I think it would make sense for it to be in November, because surely the game would be pretty much done and in the DLC planning phases by then (if they're doing that) so it would definitely be something to tease.

I agree. I think late October or early November might be the likeliest timing for a new Smash Bros. Direct. It reminds me of the Wii U 50-fact presentation and how the Wii U game released in late November and early December depending on the territory, so I think something similar could happen here.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm just saying, in a game where echoes are a prominent thing, why not make Isabelle one of them? If this was Smash Wii U? Sure why not. But a lot of characters are turning out to be echoes because they want to churn out as many characters as possible with a limited time. The way I see it. Focusing so much time on Isabelle seems like a waste when some of that time could have been used to make... I don't know 2 more echoes.

I love how we went from "WHY ARE CLONES TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?" to "WHY ARE UNIQUES TAKING UP ROSTER SLOTS!?"

EDIT: well she's a semi-clone but you know what I mean

 

[Pyra]

Also a bit unrelated to the current conversation but it's my birthday today.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Anyone who doesn't think Isabelle did at the very least decent on the Ballot is lying to themselves. She got a Mii costume! People wanted her, just not necessarily every smash fan, so what.

I think she placed within the top 25 characters in the ballot.

 

[Dandelionel]

I love how we went from "WHY ARE CLONES TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?" to "WHY ARE UNIQUES TAKING UP ROSTER SLOTS!?"

also why is everyone obssesed with having so much echoes. adding them for the sake of it is kinda dumb like who is going to look at Hilda and say "YES SAKURAI THIS IS WHAT I WANTED ALL ALONG"

 

[Nonno Umby]

Also I've thinking for a while. Note that this is just a crazy conspiracy theory made by me, but I think it might be interesting.

So what if Isabelle started as an echo, but near the end of development they upgraded her to semi clone as a bonus, just like they did back in Smash For? That seems like something Sakurai would do, and it surely makes more sense to promote Isabelle instead of other echoes like Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus etc. etc. since she is actually a very big character among Nintendo's lineup.
That would explain why her trailer was so...meh. They probably didn't made that scene in CGI like the other reveals, they probably just used the new Animal Crossing assets to put that trailer together, which would also explain why it is the only trailer without any other Nintendo character in it.

IDK what do you think?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Also a bit unrelated to the current conversation but it's my birthday today.

I bet Isabelle was a nice early-birthday present

 

[Jetsurge]

Here is how I think the remaining reveals are going to be put:
-One trailer is randomly dropped in October after being annunced a couple of days before. Just like they did with Robin and Lucina.
-Another Direct is shown mid November, giving release date for some early 2019 titles like Yoshi and Fire Emblem. Another character is revealed there, and after that they announce the final Smash Direct.
-During the final Smash Direct they reveal the last two unique newcomers and all the remaining echoes.

That would mean 72 characters plus echoes.

The roster will be leaked by mid November

 

[osby]

I love how we went from "WHY ARE CLONES TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?" to "WHY ARE UNIQUES TAKING UP ROSTER SLOTS!?"

EDIT: well she's a semi-clone but you know what I mean

"WHY ARE CHARACTERS I DON'T LIKE TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?"

Something like that?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

"WHY ARE CHARACTERS I DON'T LIKE TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?"

Something like that?

He said he didn't mind Isabelle getting in Smash in and of itself though

 

[osby]

Also I've thinking for a while. Note that this is just a crazy conspiracy theory made by me, but I think it might be interesting.

So what if Isabelle started as an echo, but near the end of development they upgraded her to semi clone as a bonus, just like they did back in Smash For? That seems like something Sakurai would do, and it surely makes more sense to promote Isabelle instead of other echoes like Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus etc. etc. since she is actually a very big character among Nintendo's lineup.
That would explain why her trailer was so...meh. They probably didn't made that scene in CGI like the other reveals, they probably just used the new Animal Crossing assets to put that trailer together, which would also explain why it is the only trailer without any other Nintendo character in it.

IDK what do you think?

It think she just ceated to be an semi clone from the start. Her trailer didn't set the world on fire but she still got one unlike Chrom or Dark Samus.

She's in the middle, like her moveset.

 

[Frostwraith]

Also a bit unrelated to the current conversation but it's my birthday today.

Happy birthday. Hope you're having a good day.

Also I've thinking for a while. Note that this is just a crazy conspiracy theory made by me, but I think it might be interesting.

So what if Isabelle started as an echo, but near the end of development they upgraded her to semi clone as a bonus, just like they did back in Smash For? That seems like something Sakurai would do, and it surely makes more sense to promote Isabelle instead of other echoes like Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus etc. etc. since she is actually a very big character among Nintendo's lineup.
That would explain why her trailer was so...meh. They probably didn't made that scene in CGI like the other reveals, they probably just used the new Animal Crossing assets to put that trailer together, which would also explain why it is the only trailer without any other Nintendo character in it.

IDK what do you think?

That makes sense. Maybe they had time to spice Isabelle up.

Even now, she still seems to be very derivative of the Villager with even some of the new moves being clearly based on Villager, for example, what appears to be her down special where she buries the rocket and it launches up. Clearly seems to be a combination of the Villager's side and down specials.

 

[Opossum]

Here's what I'm thinking going forward.

- Nothing else this month besides music posts
- Nothing in October
- Early November, a Robin-style video drop happens revealing Incineroar. Said video is accompanied by a Final Smash Direct announcement for later in November
- Final Smash Direct happens, Sakurai explains K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar in-depth. He shows off Ken, Shadow, and maybe Impa as echoes. Spirits Mode is explained. Ends off with a Geno reveal as the final newcomer. May or may not tease a Spring Man DLC reveal a la Mewtwo in 50 Facts.
- Game releases



Just my thoughts.

 

[Murlough]

No one is assuming every trailer is directed at them, but when a certain expectation has been created for Smash reveals that was simply not achieved by Isabelle trailer. Not everyone who has a issue with the trailer has a problem with Isabelle specifically.

1. “No one” is loaded. There are pople out there who think like that whether they know it or not. Its abundantly clear with plenty of responses I’ve seen.

2. The only expectation that was created was done by the fans. Nintendo didn’t say anything about Smash being in the Direct, yet almost everybody expected something anyway. Thats what I’m saying. Anyway, I genuinely don’t care as this isn’t worth arguing about anyway.

3. Yeah, I know that. I didn’t say “everyone hates Isabelle who disliked the trailer.”

 

[Nonno Umby]

It think she just ceated to be an semi clone from the start. Her trailer didn't set the world on fire but she still got one unlike Chrom or Dark Samus.

She's in the middle, like her moveset.

Yeah, but that trailer is clearly a lot different from any other we have seen.
No CGI, no other Nintendo characters, and it uses models and assets most likely from the new game. That sounds like a last minute trailer to me, just like how they decided she was going to have one last minute.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Here's what I'm thinking going forward.

- Nothing else this month besides music posts
- Nothing in October
- Early November, a Robin-style video drop happens revealing Incineroar. Said video is accompanied by a Final Smash Direct announcement for later in November
- Final Smash Direct happens, Sakurai explains K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar in-depth. He shows off Ken, Shadow, and maybe Impa as echoes. Spirits Mode is explained. Ends off with a Geno reveal as the final newcomer. May or may not tease a Spring Man DLC reveal a la Mewtwo in 50 Facts.
- Game releases



Just my thoughts.

A whole month with no new information? This board will burn

 

[osby]

A whole month with no new information? This board will burn

Nah, people can discuss who 'deserves' being a more unique echo for weeks, now.

 

[DraginHikari]

"WHY ARE CHARACTERS I DON'T LIKE TAKING UP ROSTER SPOTS!?"

Something like that?

Probably the most accurate way to put it. Besides the issues with the trailer, I kind of accepted there are always characters that will be added that I don't get. Been like that in every Smash game ever. It's determined by Sakurai and his team decision after all.

1. “No one” is loaded. There are pople out there who think like that whether they know it or not. Its abundantly clear with plenty of responses I’ve seen.

2. The only expectation that was created was done by the fans. Nintendo didn’t say anything about Smash being in the Direct, yet almost everybody expected something anyway. Thats what I’m saying. Anyway, I genuinely don’t care as this isn’t worth arguing about anyway.

3. Yeah, I know that. I didn’t say “everyone hates Isabelle who disliked the trailer.”

I admit using 'no one' was a poor choice of words and probably something I wouldn't have used if I hadn't typed my response as quickly as I did.

Regardless, when a Smash trailer is revealed whether expected or not there has been a particular standard and expectation when it comes to them in general. The Isabelle one just felt off in that regards which is really what kind of felt weird about the whole thing.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

In my personal experience I completely and wholeheartdly disagree with this seeing as when designed decently small yet mobile bosses are one of the best boss battles ive fought in a myriad of different plataformers.

Hornet from hollowknight gotta be the most fun boss of the whole game, same with Albus in order of ecclessia (and that game was full to the brim with fun bosses) The Pardoner was actually the only boss that left me an impression on Momodora. Keeping with metroidvanias, J. battle in Aria of Sorrow was a high point on the game, and Richter battle in SoTn was the only battle that wasn't a slogfest, maybe along Gaibon and Slogra, and ironically, the doppelganger. the only thing you need to take into ocnsideration are the player character mobility options.

not saying that Skull kid is a boss. but saying that character sized and mobile bosses are inherently bad design or awful boss fights, I disagree.

It's not so much that they're generally bad fights, all of the fights I mentioned with smaller than average bosses are also enjoyable, but in the context of Smash they don't work.

Take Hornet like you mentioned, that fight works very well because you're playing as a character which has the tools to deal with her, and in a variety of ways aswell as you can build The Knight to have all sorts of different playstyles. Just as an example let's say we put Hornet into Smash as a boss exactly as she is in Hollow Knight, in theory she works just the same, except now try and take her on as Dedede, or Zelda, or Ganondorf, characters with low mobility, slow moves and less than favorable hitboxes, that's when the fight becomes a test of even landing a hit rather than a heated duel like it was originally designed as. And there are quite a few characters like those in Smash where they simply can't deal with that type of boss, it just undermines the fight's design as they'll spend so much time chasing it around, and that's nothing more than incredibly frustrating. Then we also have to consider that Skull Kid is only slightly taller than Young Link, so he'd be even worse in that regard, it's just really hard for me to imagine it working.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Nah, people can discuss who 'deserves' being a more unique echo for weeks, now.

I can hardly wait

 

[kylexv]

Here's what I'm thinking going forward.

- Nothing else this month besides music posts
- Nothing in October
- Early November, a Robin-style video drop happens revealing Incineroar. Said video is accompanied by a Final Smash Direct announcement for later in November
- Final Smash Direct happens, Sakurai explains K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar in-depth. He shows off Ken, Shadow, and maybe Impa as echoes. Spirits Mode is explained. Ends off with a Geno reveal as the final newcomer. May or may not tease a Spring Man DLC reveal a la Mewtwo in 50 Facts.
- Game releases



Just my thoughts.

Seems about accurate. But I feel they would have more than 1 unique newcomer in a theoretical direct, since they did for the August direct.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Anyone hoping for a Castlevania mansion after the Luigi's Mansion 3 reveal? I would love a crossover of both franchises now.

 

[Deleted member]

This whole "the Isabelle trailer has no CG, it must have been last minute!" just makes me think: did any of you watch Pac-Man's or the Mii's trailers?

Anyways, my predictions for now are
Smash only reveal ala Robin in October
Final Smash Direct in November
Nintendo general Direct in December, DLC is confirmed and a new ballot is opened.

 

[Over9000BPM]

It's not so much that they're generally bad fights, all of the fights I mentioned with smaller than average bosses are also enjoyable, but in the context of Smash they don't work.

Take Hornet like you mentioned, that fight works very well because you're playing as a character which has the tools to deal with her, and in a variety of ways aswell as you can build The Knight to have all sorts of different playstyles. Just as an example let's say we put Hornet into Smash as a boss exactly as she is in Hollow Knight, in theory she works just the same, except now try and take her on as Dedede, or Zelda, or Ganondorf, characters with low mobility, slow moves and less than favorable hitboxes, that's when the fight becomes a test of even landing a hit rather than a heated duel like it was originally designed as. And there are quite a few characters like those in Smash where they simply can't deal with that type of boss, it just undermines the fight's design and makes it incredibly frustrating. Then we also have to consider that Skull Kid is only slightly taller than Young Link, and you can see that it's a whole other ballgame.

Didn’t stop them with Tabuu

Stop teleporting around you total [REDACTED]

 

[Nonno Umby]

Here's what I'm thinking going forward.

- Nothing else this month besides music posts
- Nothing in October
- Early November, a Robin-style video drop happens revealing Incineroar. Said video is accompanied by a Final Smash Direct announcement for later in November
- Final Smash Direct happens, Sakurai explains K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar in-depth. He shows off Ken, Shadow, and maybe Impa as echoes. Spirits Mode is explained. Ends off with a Geno reveal as the final newcomer. May or may not tease a Spring Man DLC reveal a la Mewtwo in 50 Facts.
- Game releases



Just my thoughts.

Honestly I can't see them going into radio silence until November. Even after that huge Smash Direct we have got Isabelle revealed, all in less than a month (at least that was the initial plan before that unfortunate earthquake).

I really expect something out in October, since we just have 2 months left for reveals, considering that September is done and they wouldn't risk to be leaked by keeping things unrevealed until December.
Also we might even get a demo in November, and that is most likely going to be announced in the Final Direct where they will reveal everybody, since a demo in the wild will be datamined immediately.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Also a bit unrelated to the current conversation but it's my birthday today.

Happy birthday. Hope Isabelle was a good smash gift. I see quite a bit of excitement for her.

 

[Momotsuki]

Y'know, I should visit GameFAQs. My food does taste pretty bland, after all.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Didn’t stop them with Tabuu

Stop teleporting around you total [REDACTED]

But again, it's not about being big and mobile, or small and immobile, it's about being small and mobile, and I mean actually small, not even of average player size. And even with Tabuu being big and mobile, he was still designed as the last boss of the game, so was intended to be a greater challenge than the rest.

 

[osby]

Didn’t stop them with Tabuu

Stop teleporting around you total [REDACTED]

Tabuu was still pretty big. And he's the last boss, so he has an excuse for being super hard, unlike hypothetical Skull Kid.
EDIT: Greninja'd.