Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Why do people think making Lucas a Ness alt would be even remotely okay?


\(°|°)/

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There won't be any Smash announcements tomorrow. You already know what I'll do if I'm wrong. I'll even actually chew on a real shoe this time, no cop outs.

I'm still waiting on that shoe video....

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The GameCube Controllers do not work perfectly on the Switch. The L/R pressure system is treated as a single button click. They have to fix that up to properly port the game over. If it's not a 1:1 port, then it's not going to be popular or sell well at all. That L/R difference is a huge thing for competitive players, and people will definitely want to hold tournaments with the newer system. In order for it to sell, it has to be done right.

So if it they can't perfectly emulate every bit of it(removing some glitches aside, maybe, but note what I'll say later why this is fruitless), they're better off remaking it instead of having a lesser port of it. This isn't feasible either. But at this point, it looks more like a GameCube problem they need to fix before releasing it. I don't remember if other games depend on the L/R pressure system, but it's pretty important for Melee at least. So if they can fix that, they're golden. If not, remakes are just plain smarter and will do better. The only other option is to not bother with a VC release of some games. Melee may be wanted, but people want it the way it originally played or an update HD port. Realistically, there isn't a good 3rd option from a business perspective.

Melee needs to get on the ball with some kind of Smashbox/B0XX implementation. The Gamecube controller working identically on Switch shouldn't be seen as the holy grail of a Melee port.

 

[IanTheGamer]

Two things I do hope we get in the new Smash are the return of the Ice Climbers and Transformations, because there will be no 3DS version to hold the console Smash back, this time around.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why do people think making Lucas a Ness alt would be even remotely okay?/

Because Ness and Lucas are both way off canon anyway, so what's it matter?

 

[Deleted member]

Because Ness and Lucas are both way off canon anyway, so what's it matter?

I fail to see how that's relevant in any way.
They are 2 established characters with very different movesets. Having Lucas as an alt for Ness wouldn't be anything close to a compromise.

\(°|°)/

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I fail to see how that's relevant in any way.
They are 2 established characters with very different movesets. Havung Lucas as an alt for Ness wouldn't be anything close to a compromise.

\(°|°)/

I don't care that they're 2 established characters. Neither veteran status nor the fact that they are different characters make me think characters shouldn't be alts. I also wouldn't call their movesets "very different" in this context.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't care that they're 2 established characters. Neither veteran status nor the fact that they are different characters make me think characters shouldn't be alts. I also wouldn't call their movesets "very different" in this context.

You're still sacrificing a unique moveset that's very different from the other. Even if you're only looking at the animations.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't think they're that different. Custom moves can take care of it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't think they're that different. Custom moves can take care of it.

What about all of their normals, smashes, throws and aerials?

I can't think of a single move they share aside from their specials and Forward Smash.

You saying custom moves can fix this doesn't show some great solution.

It shows you haven't thought much about the situation.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

They have identical size, shape, weight, and falling speed. I would be fine with having two Earthbound characters, but not two that are so similar.

 

[Megadoomer]

I remember seeing a rumor that Smash for Switch would be shown in March.

Odds seem pretty good that there are rumours about Smash for Switch being shown in every single month of the year - a stopped clock may be right twice a day, but I'd say just ignore rumours about that sort of thing or else you'll wind up disappointed if/when Nintendo doesn't announce it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think they're that different. Custom moves can take care of it.

Well you are simply wrong. Not to mention custom moves were such a hassle and it wouldn't take much time to just add Lucas back

They have identical size, shape, weight, and falling speed. I would be fine with having two Earthbound characters, but not two that are so similar.

I see, you just spam their B moves and that's why you think they're similar

 

[Swamp Sensei]

and falling speed.

Now this part is just plain wrong.

Lucas has a faster fall speed.

Regardless...

They have identical size, shape, weight,

Even if these are the same or roughly the same, that doesn't change the huge amount of differences they have. Like Wolf, Lucas is far more unique than clone.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The smash wiki lists Lucas as a semi-clone of Ness. Wolf is given a passing mention for Brawl. I'm not an expert on the differences in play styles between the former two, because I'm more familiar with Melee, and PM players seem to use Lucas more often. If they are that different, then combining them would be a not insignificant loss without extensive (almost unrealistic) custom move support. However, I still think that in a reasonably sized roster, having both of them is suboptimal.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The smash wiki lists Lucas as a semi-clone of Ness. Wolf is given a passing mention for Brawl. I'm not an expert on the differences in play styles between the former two, because I'm more familiar with Melee, and PM players seem to use Lucas more often. If they are that different, then combining them would be a not insignificant loss without extensive (almost unrealistic) custom move support. However, I still think that in a reasonably sized roster, having both of them is suboptimal.

Well that explains it as PM also gave Falco his 100% clone moveset and. Besides, that doesn't change how your opinion is objectively wrong. People being excited for paying money for Lucas says enough. Besides, Melee's a bad game, you should try using good games as examples

 

[Cosmic77]

The smash wiki lists Lucas as a semi-clone of Ness. Wolf is given a passing mention for Brawl. I'm not an expert on the differences in play styles between the former two, because I'm more familiar with Melee, and PM players seem to use Lucas more often. If they are that different, then combining them would be a not insignificant loss without extensive (almost unrealistic) custom move support. However, I still think that in a reasonably sized roster, having both of them is suboptimal.

While it's true that Lucas might not fare well in the future, I don't think people would appreciate him being merged with Ness. He might seem similar, but overall, there's just too much in the movesets that distinguishes the two apart.

The only characters we have that you could turn into an alt without major complications are Lucina and Dark Pit (and possibly Dr. Mario since Sakurai did consider it), and that's only because those guys have movesets that are near identical to the character they were cloned from.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

opinion is objectively wrong

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people think making Lucas a Ness alt would be even remotely okay?


\(°|°)/

Because people are evil . Lucas in my opinion should never be a Ness alt. Sure Lucas starred in a game that was Japanese-Exclusive and did not get a lot of popularity besides Smash Brothers, but I feel very comfortable for him as a separate fighter.

They have identical size, shape, weight, and falling speed. I would be fine with having two Earthbound characters, but not two that are so similar.

You really need to learn more about Smash Brothers my guy. LUCAS AND NESS ARE NOT EVEN IDENTICAL. Lucas has different smash attacks, different taunts, and is just more different enough than Ness to be a fighter on his own. I love my boy Lucas, I would not want him having the same style as Ness. Ness has a different down b, different grab, different air attacks ( except for up air ) and more. Even the recovery is a little different, being stronger than Ness's recovery where someone can not hit the purple PK Thunder and hope it disappears like Ness. Lucas should never be an alt of Ness, got that?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Lucas should never be an alt of Ness, got that?

This makes you come off sounding like a child. Anyway, you didn't say anything that hasn't already been said.

 

[Deleted member]

This makes you come off sounding like a child. Anyway, you didn't say anything that hasn't already been said.

To his defense he is 14, and you don't exactly give any good counter arguement.

\(°|°)/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Melee needs to get on the ball with some kind of Smashbox/B0XX implementation. The Gamecube controller working identically on Switch shouldn't be seen as the holy grail of a Melee port.

Ah, yeah, I'm sorry, but it kind of has to work exactly the same way with Melee. There's multiple games where it not working right is beyond important.

Throwing out badly ported games is not going to go well with the fanbase at all. They need to fix this first, whether it's a new adapter, a specific patch for the Switch, or to modify every game. It's called "porting the game over 1:1 so people can play it how it's meant to be properly played." There was already enough backlash at them releasing N64 VC games that use the Memory Pak while not being able to emulate it properly. Not only were some games impossible to come back, some were already complained about for good reasons. They need to make sure stuff like this works because people want to enjoy the entire proper game, not downgraded versions. It's basic business.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

To his defense he is 14, and you don't exactly give any good counter arguement.

\(°|°)/

There was no new argument to counter. It was all addressed above his post.

Ah, yeah, I'm sorry, but it kind of has to work exactly the same way with Melee. There's multiple games where it not working right is beyond important.

Throwing out badly ported games is not going to go well with the fanbase at all. They need to fix this first, whether it's a new adapter, a specific patch for the Switch, or to modify every game. It's called "porting the game over 1:1 so people can play it how it's meant to be properly played." There was already enough backlash at them releasing N64 VC games that use the Memory Pak while not being able to emulate it properly. Not only were some games impossible to come back, some were already complained about for good reasons. They need to make sure stuff like this works because people want to enjoy the entire proper game, not downgraded versions. It's basic business.

You haven't given me any reason to change my mind here. All you've done is reiterated your belief that it has to work exactly as Melee and said not doing so would be porting the game badly. I already gave my opinion against that, so I don't know what your point here is. As for playing it "how it's meant to be properly played," Melee is far beyond that and has endured by adapting not only strategy and tech, but controllers through modification.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

Well neither do you considering you say they're too similar

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You haven't given me any reason to change my mind here. All you've done is reiterated your belief that it has to work exactly as Melee and said not doing so would be porting the game badly. I already gave my opinion against that, so I don't know what your point here is. As for playing it "how it's meant to be properly played," Melee is far beyond that and has endured by adapting not only strategy and tech, but controllers through modification.

They aren't going to want controllers modified, so that isn't going to work from a business perspective. They want people to buy the product and use it correctly. It's always how Nintendo is.

They aren't going to badly port it over(and yes, it's a bad port if it's missing any kind of content, including being able to play it properly. It's cutting out the entire way the shield originally functioned, which is a light shield that covers more of the body that can gradually be changed to a far stronger shield that only covers some of the body). Missing gameplay mechanics is absolutely missing content. They gain nothing by giving us a bad port. They gain everything by fixing the controller to work with every game.

Time for a reality check; people are either interested in having a proper port of the game that plays the way that it was intended to or would rather have a good upgraded one. Nobody likes pointlessly downgraded games. They do not sell. They're bad for the company and just piss off customers instead. Bad ports are highly unpopular for good reasons. I don't know why you think it would remotely sell at this point or actually be something people are willing to pay money for, only to find out it doesn't have what they actually want.

 

[Deleted member]

There was no new argument to counter. It was all addressed above his post.

Lampy does not just mean my post in general, he means you are not good at giving counter argument at all in this thread
I have to agree with Lampy here, sorry psychic.

I'm still waiting on that shoe video....

Me too, now you got me curious.
Mario does have some nice new epic shoes.

They aren't going to want controllers modified, so that isn't going to work from a business perspective. They want people to buy the product and use it correctly. It's always how Nintendo is.

They aren't going to badly port it over(and yes, it's a bad port if it's missing any kind of content, including being able to play it properly. It's cutting out the entire way the shield originally functioned, which is a light shield that covers more of the body that can gradually be changed to a far stronger shield that only covers some of the body). Missing gameplay mechanics is absolutely missing content. They gain nothing by giving us a bad port. They gain everything by fixing the controller to work with every game.

Time for a reality check; people are either interested in having a proper port of the game that plays the way that it was intended to or would rather have a good upgraded one. Nobody likes pointlessly downgraded games. They do not sell. They're bad for the company and just piss off customers instead. Bad ports are highly unpopular for good reasons. I don't know why you think it would remotely sell at this point or actually be something people are willing to pay money for, only to find out it doesn't have what they actually want.

You make a good point. Melee is competitive but overall it has flaws that needs to be fixed if a port were to happen. I say that Smash for Switch should come first, than a Melee port. Also I think the people are fine without a Melee port, I mean they already are still playing Melee. If you are going to make a Melee port, fix Kirby, Game and Watch's problems, and some hitboxes / hurtboxes, as well as some other glitches.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario does have some nice new epic shoes.

Swamp wasn't talking about Mario, I think it's an inside joke

\(°|°)/

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

They aren't going to want controllers modified, so that isn't going to work from a business perspective. They want people to buy the product and use it correctly. It's always how Nintendo is.

They aren't going to badly port it over(and yes, it's a bad port if it's missing any kind of content, including being able to play it properly. It's cutting out the entire way the shield originally functioned, which is a light shield that covers more of the body that can gradually be changed to a far stronger shield that only covers some of the body). Missing gameplay mechanics is absolutely missing content. They gain nothing by giving us a bad port. They gain everything by fixing the controller to work with every game.

Time for a reality check; people are either interested in having a proper port of the game that plays the way that it was intended to or would rather have a good upgraded one. Nobody likes pointlessly downgraded games. They do not sell. They're bad for the company and just piss off customers instead. Bad ports are highly unpopular for good reasons. I don't know why you think it would remotely sell at this point or actually be something people are willing to pay money for, only to find out it doesn't have what they actually want.

Somewhere along the line you missed my point that the Gamecube controller specifically shouldn't be the holy grail of a port. I never said replicating game mechanics, e.g., light shielding, isn't crucial.

Well neither do you considering you say they're too similar

Here is my point put plainly: an opinion cannot be objectively wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

I have to say, Melee aged quite well for a game. It is still very popular and active today, and it still feels nice. I do disagree with making a Melee Switch port, I think we can wait on that.

Two things I do hope we get in the new Smash are the return of the Ice Climbers and Transformations, because there will be no 3DS version to hold the console Smash back, this time around.

I hate transformations, I prefer Sheik and Zelda as well as ZSS and Samus different characters. If I want to combo someone with Sheik, I do not want to down-b. Ice Climbers are guaranteed for coming back, so there should not be fear that the ice Climbers are not coming back in Smash for Switch.

Swamp wasn't talking about Mario, I think it's an inside joke

\(°|°)/

I know that, I just wanted to pinpoint out another aspect of something.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Somewhere along the line you missed my point that the Gamecube controller specifically shouldn't be the holy grail of a port. I never said replicating game mechanics, e.g., light shielding, isn't crucial.

Except it is the holy grail here. The controller has to work correctly to port a game that explicitly uses that controller. It's no coincidence GameCube games have seen no VC releases. They haven't been able to properly emulate their entire gameplay correctly. You're forgetting that multiple games use the pressure system. It's an absolutely necessity and has to be treated as beyond important because it's about selling product to customers in a way that makes them want to buy it. They aren't going to buy half-assed ports enough to make a real profit. Once people find out that they can't play all the games well, they won't buy those games. It's a necessity for Melee entirely. It's a necessity for Sunshine. And other examples within this topic.

Think from a business perspective; if you want a port to sell, it needs to be better or at least the same popular one that people like overall.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't think I'm getting my point across to you, so that's all from me on that for now.

 

[Tailisu10]

Reminder that Ness got Lucas' specials as customs, but it didn't fill the hole in my heart from my Sunflower child's absence . (Not to mention that almost all of Ness' Lucas customs were inferior version)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ice Climbers are guaranteed for coming back, so there should not be fear that the ice Climbers are not coming back in Smash for Switch.

If 8-player Smash returns, then there could be a problem for the Ice Climbers. ALL fighters have to be compatible with 8-player Smash, and if the game ends up lagging when as many as 8 sets of Ice Climbers are present, then either they have to go, or 8-player Smash goes.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'd rather have Ice Climbers than 8-player Smash.

 

[FunAtParties]

Yeah I'm biased, but if I had to choose between a character and a niche game mode, I'm picking the character.

 

[Krysco]

Lucas has similarities to Ness, no doubt. Both have quick, short ranged, 3 hit jabs, a single hit, angle-able ftilt (though Lucas' has a sweetspot whereas Ness' does not), a quick, short ranged dtilt with a chance to trip, a single hit utilt that makes use of PSI (though Lucas's uses his leg while Ness' uses his hands. Also, I believe Lucas has a hitbox infront of him? Could be wrong on that). Their fsmashes are very similar and visually, their uairs are similar too though in Sm4sh, they changed Lucas' so it's hitbox is nowhere near as generous as Ness'. They also both have meteoring dairs but Ness' is a single strong hit with a very generous early autocancel while Lucas' is 3 hits that lead into a 4th hit that meteors.

Beyond that, their specials all behave similarly but with distinct differences, not unlike Fox and Falco or Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. PK Freeze moves way faster than PK Flash and is less powerful, Lucas' PK Fire is a more 'traditional' projectile, just sending the opponent away if it hits them and Lucas' always goes straight ahead, making it far more useful after a short hop. Ness' always goes at a more downward angle, whether he's grounded or airborne and upon hitting an opponent, it traps them in the fire. Both of their down specials are the PSI Magnet but Lucas' has a hitbox when it's deactivated and it only absorbs things in front of him (this was not the case in Brawl). Ness' has a windbox upon deactivation, absorbs all around him and I believe Lucas' heals slightly more. Both of their up specials are PK Thunder and they use it to recover in the same way but Ness' can be stopped by hitting the PK Thunder before it touches his body (though it's a bit less generous compared to the past 3 games). Ness' is also a single strong hit while Lucas' is a multi hit, both in regards to the PK Thunder and the attack after it connects with them. Ness' moves faster but the distance he travels is less if he hits something along the way.

Ness has slightly better air acceleration, their air dodges, trips, techs, spot dodges, ledge options, rolls, item toss and get up options are the same in terms of frame data, they have the same item toss strength, Ness has a higher air friction, Lucas has higher air speed, Lucas has a faster dash length, Lucas has a higher fall speed, Lucas has a higher gravity, they have the same jab lock window, Ness has a higher short hop and full hop, Lucas has a slightly higher double jump, Lucas has a higher ledge hop, actually having the highest one in the game, they have the same jumpsquat, Lucas' fsmash reflects sooner than Ness' but has a smaller reflector duration and it reflects weaker and slower than Ness' and Ness' also has a higher reflect threshold than any other reflector in the game, Lucas runs faster, Ness has a bigger shield, Ness has better traction, Ness walks faster and they have the same weight.

Their dash attacks, dsmashes, usmashes, nairs, fairs, bairs and grab are all different. Lucas also has a zair. They both have strong fthrows and bthrows and both combo off of their dthrows although Ness' is more horizontal based while Lucas' is more vertical based. And lastly, Lucas has a stronger uthrow. Oh and as far as I can tell, their Final Smashes are basically the exact same in Sm4sh.

I'm sure for many that that was all obvious but that's just to show how similar and how different the 2 PK kids are. I find them to have as many similarites and differences as Fox and Falco and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. Making Lucas an alt of Ness is actually likely the worst possible option since it cuts out the option of him coming back as a character with his own differences even if it's just through DLC. That goes for any character really. The likes of Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario could be made into alts or they could be Luigified to be more unique. Or, ya know, they could just be cut.

Tl;dr and have about as many similarities and differences as and or and .

 

[SlickWylde]

I'm still waiting on that shoe video....

I made that video years ago!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkBfECMenLc

 

[Ura]

Why do people think making Lucas a Ness alt would be even remotely okay?


\(°|°)/

The same people who think that Roy being a Marth alt would work despite his properties being unique from Marth's.

Or it could be just the camp that hates anything and everything clones.

 

[Deleted member]

Hopefully Smash will start to introduce characters who haven't made an appearance since SNES/N64 (at least outside of cameo). All NES games are over twenty years old and some are over thirty. It's inarguable that the 5th generation of games are retro at this point. Otherwise, the only plausible choice I can think of is Fighter Hayabusa/Starman from Pro Wrestling. I'd hate to see obscure character additions go away for good because Sakurai/Nintendo think anyone with an appearances after the NES can never be "old news".

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The winner of the poll was just what I've expected, the lovely Celica. Shame her brother didn't fare as well, but at least Alm was proven superior to Tobin and Leon.

Next up is the second and last Echoes poll, with some units from Celica's path and a certain villain. Your picks are Berkut, Mae, Gray, and Saber.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.