Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Phil Time]

I know this is really immature but seeing someone say it will take them over two years to afford a nintendo switch made me laugh out loud for a long time. I'll see myself out now.

I actually have to WORK for my money. Most of my money goes to paying BILLS.

Do you have a job? If you don't, perhaps that is why you do not understand the true, real value of money.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If we get an SM Pokémon as a playable, as unlikely as it is, my top five would be, from greatest to least:

1. Alolan Raichu
2. Decidueye
3. Kartana
4. Tsareena
5. Alolan Marowak

I now totally realise Alolan Raichu is indeed a possibility... And it could be a semi-clone even! That's a good thing for development costs sake. I could see them do such an addition because like Generation 2, a clear mascot isn't really there. So they can choose the simple option of having a Pikachu-family character again.

Also, am playing through Golden Sun Dark Dawn now for the very first time and let me say, it's a damn shame this hasn't became the fullfledged franchise it deserved to be.

 

[Deleted member]

Huh, I wouldn't mind Alolan Marowak, now that I think about it.
And it would use green "ghost" fire, so people won't be able to ***** about "too much fire" :V

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Like Roy and Marth, Skapon can be appealing without actually being known. All you need is a little introducting in the trailer.

The difference between Sukapon and Takamaru despite them being in the same boat is that Takamaru HAS indeed had small representation in the west with the 3DS VC release of Murasame Castle and with his minigame in NintendoLand. Sukapon hasn't had any sort of appearance out of Japan. At all. Sukapon is just one of those characters that Sakurai's mentioned before and people latched onto VERY quickly. Takamaru is guilty of this as well. Only thing he's got going over Sukapon I that he HAS had an appearance in the west and has remained slightly more relevant than Sukapon over the past few years or so.

 

[Delzethin]

What Pokemon is the most marketed/notable after the seven we have in Smash? I'm not talking only relevant characters like Decidueye because they won't last but rather a well known Pokemon whose popularity will last forever.

No offense, but that's not a good way to look at it. Treating newer characters as innately less important than old ones just because they're newer is a big mistake a lot of speculators make, especially with how much of the new blood we got in Smash 4 already. It's clear that Sakurai and the dev team think newer faces matter too!

That goes especially for Pokémon, as well as Fire Emblem and potentially now Xenoblade. These series all have casts that rotate, bringing in new characters with each new main entry who all have their own time in the spotlight. Since they rotate in and out, we can't really judge them the same way as characters from the likes of Mario or Metroid, who have a core cast that is basically always present. Applying consistent-cast guidelines to rotating-cast characters is another common mistake, and it leads to characters like Greninja slipping under the radar who honestly shouldn't have.

So with that in mind, we absolutely do want to look at Gen 7 as far as Pokémon goes, especially since it's been such a big deal and has so many standout mons. Though a couple in particular may have the perfect combination of relevance, prominence, moveset potential, and fresh new abilities that we haven't yet seen on the Smash roster. After all, it's pretty easy to stand out when there aren't any other plant- or earth/stone-based characters...

 

[LunchmanJ]

The difference between Sukapon and Takamaru despite them being in the same boat is that Takamaru HAS indeed had small representation in the west with the 3DS VC release of Murasame Castle and with his minigame in NintendoLand. Sukapon hasn't had any sort of appearance out of Japan. At all. Sukapon is just one of those characters that Sakurai's mentioned before and people latched onto VERY quickly. Takamaru is guilty of this as well. Only thing he's got going over Sukapon I that he HAS had an appearance in the west and has remained slightly more relevant than Sukapon over the past few years or so.

There are no more big Retro characters, which is why I decided to go with the most appealing. Read my posts.

No offense, but that's not a good way to look at it. Treating newer characters as innately less important than old ones just because they're newer is a big mistake a lot of speculators make, especially with how much of the new blood we got in Smash 4 already. It's clear that Sakurai and the dev team think newer faces matter too!

That goes especially for Pokémon, as well as Fire Emblem and potentially now Xenoblade. These series all have casts that rotate, bringing in new characters with each new main entry who all have their own time in the spotlight. Since they rotate in and out, we can't really judge them the same way as characters from the likes of Mario or Metroid, who have a core cast that is basically always present. Applying consistent-cast guidelines to rotating-cast characters is another common mistake, and it leads to characters like Greninja slipping under the radar who honestly shouldn't have.

So with that in mind, we absolutely do want to look at Gen 7 as far as Pokémon goes, especially since it's been such a big deal and has so many standout mons. Though a couple in particular may have the perfect combination of relevance, prominence, moveset potential, and fresh new abilities that we haven't yet seen on the Smash roster. After all, it's pretty easy to stand out when there aren't any other plant- or earth/stone-based characters...

Why? I don't see any reasoning backing up this post.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

There are no more big Retro characters, which is why I decided to go with the most appealing. Read my posts.

Why? I don't see any reasoning backing up this post.

Except Takamaru almost made it in Smash and Sukapon didn't. What's more appealing than a popular character? You have arbitrarily decided what people want and don't listen to counterarguments because "I chose that this is what people want based off of what I want". You're not the first here to do that though tbh

By not giving new characters a chance you indirectly insult their fans, and considering Fire Emblem adds the new Lord...

 

[LunchmanJ]

Except Takamaru almost made it in Smash and Sukapon didn't. What's more appealing than a popular character? You have arbitrarily decided what people want and don't listen to counterarguments because "I chose that this is what people want based off of what I want". You're not the first here to do that though tbh

By not giving new characters a chance you indirectly insult their fans, and considering Fire Emblem adds the new Lord...

I think Takamaru is a character people think they want but don't actually want, especially now that Nintendo Land has lost its relevance. I came to the conclusion that the next Retro character should be an appealing one, so I'm operating under the mindset of a movie critic: that there is an objective and true opinion consensus on each piece of art. All I néed to do is be honest with myself.

Nobody's stupid enough to let themself be insulted because their character has problems.

EDIT: What's the latest biggest fan poll on which characters people wanted for DLC or for Smash 5?

 

[Delzethin]

Why? I don't see any reasoning backing up this post.

Alright then. Fine. Let's take a good look at every newcomer that came to Smash 4. In bold will be the characters originating from the Wii era or later:

Villager
Mega Man
Wii Fit Trainer
Rosalina & Luma
Little Mac
Greninja
Mii Fighters
Palutena (who might as well be, as the inspiration for her entire moveset and personality comes from Uprising)
Pac-Man
Robin
Lucina
Shulk
Bowser Jr.
Duck Hunt
Dark Pit
Ryu
Cloud
Corrin
Bayonetta

That's 11 of 19, a majority of Smash 4's newcomers, coming from around Brawl's time or later. Take that, combine it with Sakurai's word that when the Smash team chose Corrin they were looking specifically for a newer face, and you get the conclusion I've been trying to emphasize:

We should not write off new characters solely for being new, nor should we assume older characters are more likely to be chosen as newcomers, because the Smash developers think newer characters matter too.

There's your reasoning.

I think Takamaru is a character people think they want but don't actually want, especially now that Nintendo Land has lost its relevance. I came to the conclusion that the next Retro character should be an appealing one, so I'm operating under the mindset of a movie critic: that there is an objective and true opinion consensus on each piece of art. All I néed to do is be honest with myself.

You're forgetting one thing: a willingness to understand others' viewpoints and adapt one's arguments upon learning more information. Trust me, I made predictions a few years ago that were far off the mark, but I've kept my ear to the ground and done my best (insert Nino here) to try and see what the developers are actually looking for.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Takamaru is a character people think they want but don't actually want, especially now that Nintendo Land has lost its relevance. I came to the conclusion that the next Retro character should be an appealing one, so I'm operating under the mindset of a movie critic: that there is an objective and true opinion consensus on each piece of art. All I néed to do is be honest with myself.

Nobody's stupid enough to let themself be insulted because their character has problems.

EDIT: What's the latest biggest fan poll on which characters people wanted for DLC or for Smash 5?

Yet Takamru ALMOST MADE IT IB THE GAME. Why? BECAUSE LOTS OF PEOPLE WANTED HIM IN FROM JAPAN. Why did he not get in? NOT ENOUGH WESTERN RELEASES. Sukapon has LESS on both ends! You aren't thinking what's appealing to fans, you're only thinking about what YOU want! Sukapon was only considered as an item, Takamaru as a playable character! There's also nothing objective about your belief people want Sukapon, go on, ask the average person if they even KNOW who he is in Japan

This s the Smash community, where if you want a character people think won't happen will be greeted with "Shut up you ******** piece of **** it'll never happen" by more toxic fans. By completely shutting out what you don't want, you're not giving others a chance. Plus you failed to provide a counter argument to the reasoning about why newer pokemon shouldn't be dismissrd

 

[Schnee117]

There are no more big Retro characters, which is why I decided to go with the most appealing. Read my posts.
.

Sukapon is not the most appealing. The most appealing is the one who is currently an assist trophy to make up for thinking they didn't have enough Western Popularity (but it turned out they were reasonably popular anyway). That's Takamaru by the way.

Why? I don't see any reasoning backing up this post.

There's more than enough reasoning to back it up. I suggest you read it properly.

I'm operating under the mindset of a movie critic: that there is an objective and true opinion consensus on each piece of art. All I néed to do is be honest with myself.

There's your issue right there.
You're approaching this from the complete wrong angle and applying YOUR opinion as a fact when it really isn't.
You need to be more open.

Nobody's stupid enough to let themself be insulted because their character has problems.

They're also not stupid enough to let the ignorance of others stand.

EDIT: What's the latest biggest fan poll on which characters people wanted for DLC or for Smash 5?

Fan polls are awful and should not be used when they've been proven to be a load of bogus.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I feel like this thread is turning into picking on one guy, even if his reasoning is flawed.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Alright then. Fine. Let's take a good look at every newcomer that came to Smash 4. In bold will be the characters originating from the Wii era or later:

Villager
Mega Man
Wii Fit Trainer
Rosalina & Luma
Little Mac
Greninja
Mii Fighters
Palutena (who might as well be, as the inspiration for her entire moveset and personality comes from Uprising)
Pac-Man
Robin
Lucina
Shulk
Bowser Jr.
Duck Hunt
Dark Pit
Ryu
Cloud
Corrin
Bayonetta

That's 11 of 19, a majority of Smash 4's newcomers, coming from around Brawl's time or later. Take that, combine it with Sakurai's word that when the Smash team chose Corrin they were looking specifically for a newer face, and you get the conclusion I've been trying to emphasize:

We should not write off new characters solely for being new, nor should we assume older characters are more likely to be chosen as newcomers, because the Smash developers think newer characters matter too.

There's your reasoning.



You're forgetting one thing: a willingness to understand others' viewpoints and adapt one's arguments upon learning more information. Trust me, I made predictions a few years ago that were far off the mark, but I've kept my ear to the ground and done my best (insert Nino here) to try and see what the developers are actually looking for.

I'm not talking likelyness. I'm starting these discussions for my IDEAL roster, unbound by what the dev team wants. I do listen to people but nobody gives arguments.

Yet Takamru ALMOST MADE IT IB THE GAME. Why? BECAUSE LOTS OF PEOPLE WANTED HIM IN FROM JAPAN. Why did he not get in? NOT ENOUGH WESTERN RELEASES. Sukapon has LESS on both ends! You aren't thinking what's appealing to fans, you're only thinking about what YOU want! Sukapon was only considered as an item, Takamaru as a playable character! There's also nothing objective about your belief people want Sukapon, go on, ask the average person if they even KNOW who he is in Japan

This s the Smash community, where if you want a character people think won't happen will be greeted with "Shut up you ******** piece of **** it'll never happen" by more toxic fans. By completely shutting out what you don't want, you're not giving others a chance. Plus you failed to provide a counter argument to the reasoning about why newer pokemon shouldn't be dismissrd

Why do people want Takamaru? Don't tell me it's because of Nintendo Land because that has lost its relevance.

Others CAN STILL POST and convince me why they love their character. Newer pokemon are less deserving because they appear less.

EDIT: I might actually leave this thread because these people won't read what I'm saying.

EDIT: I never said people want Skapon. I said he's appealing if introduced.

I don't shut out other people.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not talking likelyness. I'm starting these discussions for my IDEAL roster, unbound by what the dev team wants. I do listen to people but nobody gives arguments.

Why do people want Takamaru? Don't tell me it's because of Nintendo Land because that has lost its relevance.

Others CAN STILL POST and convince me why they love their character. Newer pokemon are less deserving because they appear less.

EDIT: I might actually leave this thread because these people won't read what I'm saying.

This isn't an ideal roster thread, it's a speculation thread

1: it's more relevant than anything Sukapon's ever been in.
2: His game was brought outside Japan after that
3: He made it in Smash as an Assist Trophy because Sakurai decided it's better to have a considered character as something
3: Takamaru was also playable in Orochi Warriors a while aho
4: Greninja didn't even EXIST before he was decided to be made as a playable character, Sakurai just saw concept art and used that

 

[LunchmanJ]

This isn't an ideal roster thread, it's a speculation thread

1: it's more relevant than anything Sukapon's ever been in.
2: His game was brought outside Japan after that
3: He made it in Smash as an Assist Trophy because Sakurai decided it's better to have a considered character as something
3: Takamaru was also playable in Orochi Warriors a while aho
4: Greninja didn't even EXIST before he was decided to be made as a playable character, Sakurai just saw concept art and used that

We can both service each other with the same discussion. Actually, the people over at the Smash 5 roster thread suggest to bring any discussion over there over here, so I was right all along. If they don't want ideal roster discussion here then that's a major problem because it can't be discussed anywhere.

Oh, dear lord, do I have to repeat myself a twentieth time? Read the discussion before discussing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We can service each other with the same discussion. Actually, the people over at the Smash 5 roster thread suggest to bring any discussion over there over here, so I was right all along. If they don't want ideal roster discussion here then that's a major problem because it can't be discussed anywhere.

Oh, dear lord, do I have to repeat myself a twentieth time? Read the discussion before discussing.

Nah, they probably tried to get rid of you because you keep going "mine ia a correct opinion and you all do not know how to read"

Honestly. Why should I? All you've been doing is ignoring arguments and pretending everyone but you is unable to read your majesty's Sukapon speech. Instead of counter arguments you go "Nonono, you simply aren't reading! Shame these peasants are unable to read my correct points such as my bias"

 

[WeirdChillFever]

No offense, but that's not a good way to look at it. Treating newer characters as innately less important than old ones just because they're newer is a big mistake a lot of speculators make, especially with how much of the new blood we got in Smash 4 already. It's clear that Sakurai and the dev team think newer faces matter too!

That goes especially for Pokémon, as well as Fire Emblem and potentially now Xenoblade. These series all have casts that rotate, bringing in new characters with each new main entry who all have their own time in the spotlight. Since they rotate in and out, we can't really judge them the same way as characters from the likes of Mario or Metroid, who have a core cast that is basically always present. Applying consistent-cast guidelines to rotating-cast characters is another common mistake, and it leads to characters like Greninja slipping under the radar who honestly shouldn't have.

So with that in mind, we absolutely do want to look at Gen 7 as far as Pokémon goes, especially since it's been such a big deal and has so many standout mons. Though a couple in particular may have the perfect combination of relevance, prominence, moveset potential, and fresh new abilities that we haven't yet seen on the Smash roster. After all, it's pretty easy to stand out when there aren't any other plant- or earth/stone-based characters...

To play devil's advocate, Pokémon Trainer slipped under the radar in Brawl.
Partly because of the unique gimmick, but partly because of the dogmatic focus on relevance that made gen 1 "too old"

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, they probably tried to get rid of you because you keep going "mine ia a correct opinion and you all do not know how to read"

But that's not true.
Zebei always tells us to drop the discussion when we debate about things other than rosters and directs us here.

 

[Zem-raj]

I'm not talking likelyness. I'm starting these discussions for my IDEAL roster, unbound by what the dev team wants. I do listen to people but nobody gives arguments.

Why do people want Takamaru? Don't tell me it's because of Nintendo Land because that has lost its relevance.

Others CAN STILL POST and convince me why they love their character. Newer pokemon are less deserving because they appear less.

EDIT: I might actually leave this thread because these people won't read what I'm saying.

I'm pretty certain that people want Takamaru because they like the character himself, and it's not based on appearing in Nintendo Land or being "relevant". Relevancy doesn't mean you get an automatic ticket to the roster. Despite whether or not Takamaru is "relevant" at the moment, he is fairly popular still. Takamaru is one of those retro characters that has made more of a mark compared to other retro characters from the same era as him.

 

[LunchmanJ]

I'm getting pretty close to crying because I'm now getting intrusive thoughts.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But that's not true.
Zebei always tells us to drop the discussion when we debate about things other than rosters and directs us here.

Other than rosters is exactly my point if you want to take about your ideal roster, go there

I'm getting pretty close to crying because I'm now getting intrusive thoughts.

I don't know whether you're serious or not but it's not my intention to make you upset. I just get incredibly annoyed by people at times. If you really are close to crying, I'm sorry

 

[Deleted member]

Other than rosters is exactly my point if you want to take about your ideal roster, go there

The thing is, almost every time we do that, Zebei comes and tells us to take it to the Speculation thread and threatens to lock the thread if we don't.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing is, almost every time we do that, Zebei comes and tells us to take it to the Speculation thread and threatens to lock the thread if we don't.

What kind of ideal roster thread doesn't allow people to talk about ideal rosters?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It might be best to drop this for now and start an entirely new discussion.

 

[Deleted member]

What kind of ideal roster thread doesn't allow people to talk about ideal rosters?

I don't know, I'm not the mod.
He says it's unrelated to the topic and that we should just post rosters and nothing else.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Let's not debate mod policy, ok?

Steering this i the right direction, Assist Trophies, anyone? I wanna see a human Pokemon character, maybe Prof. Oak?

 

[Megadoomer]

I'm honestly surprised that Rambi hasn't been an assist trophy yet. Donkey Kong has no assist trophies, and he seems like a natural fit - major enough to have that role, but not so important that people will get upset if he's made into an assist trophy. Besides, he could act like that goat Pokemon from Smash 4. (way behind on Pokemon, so I'm not sure of names)

I'm a bit late on the Sukapon topic, but I'd like to see him(?) in, at least. Even though he's Japan exclusive, I feel like it would be fitting to have the main character of Nintendo's first fighting game (I don't think Urban Champion counts) appear in Nintendo's big fighting game crossover.

 

[Curious Villager]

Let's not debate mod policy, ok?

Steering this i the right direction, Assist Trophies, anyone? I wanna see a human Pokemon character, maybe Prof. Oak?

I would love to see a few of the human characters from Pokemon as assist trophies. I think Todd Snap or one of the Pokemon Rangers might work out.

 

[UserKev]

I guess Meowth thanks to the anime.
But really you should just add Decidueye he's the best

I just looked this Pokémon up. Good lord. While it could be sick fighting, its design throws me off.

 

[Deleted member]

I just looked this Pokémon up. Good lord. While it could be sick fighting, its design throws me off.

Which one? Decidueye or Meowth?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which one? Decidueye or Meowth?

The latter, EVERYONE knows Meowth. That's right

 

[Deleted member]

The latter, EVERYONE knows Meowth. That's right

I think I had a brain fart when I posted that.
that happens when someone ****s on my boy decidueye

 

[Ura]

Fan polls are awful and should not be used when they've been proven to be a load of bogus.

That's not fully true.

Fan polls are legit but only for the select audience polled. Usually about 1,000-2,000 people are surveyed in those polls which is a very small portion of how many people voted in the Ballot.

Of course the two polls don't have to contrast to a very large degree. I mean Bayo was still ranking Top 10 in all those fan polls and she ended up winning the Ballot (whatever that's supposed to mean) so a small sample can still be indicative of a larger majority.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's not fully true.

Fan polls are legit but only for the select audience polled. Usually about 1,000-2,000 people are surveyed in those polls which is a very small portion of how many people voted in the Ballot.

Of course the two polls don't have to contrast to a very large degree. I mean Bayo was still ranking Top 10 in all those fan polls and she ended up winning the Ballot (whatever that's supposed to mean) so a small sample can still be indicative of a larger majority.

Only noteworthy polls that had Bayonetta as a popular pick were on neogaf and Source Gaming iirc

 

[Aurane]

Decidueye has a fantastic design, and if you disagree, then you probably are a Hanzo hater and I have no respect for you. :T

 

[Ura]

Only noteworthy polls that had Bayonetta as a popular pick were on neogaf and Source Gaming iirc

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/EPRKw1S.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150406190512
http://i.imgur.com/yR2ZPCq.png
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/017/066/080.png

Just a few polls that had her higher up.

 

[Deleted member]

Are we seriously gonna get into that discussion again?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/EPRKw1S.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150406190512
http://i.imgur.com/yR2ZPCq.png
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/017/066/080.png

Just a few polls that had her higher up.

Ooh, broken images! My favourite source!

 

[Deleted member]

By the way, is there a thread where people can post their ideal Smash game? Not just talking rosters (Game modes, Items, Stages, etc).

 

[KniteBlargh]

I'm honestly surprised that Rambi hasn't been an assist trophy yet. Donkey Kong has no assist trophies, and he seems like a natural fit - major enough to have that role, but not so important that people will get upset if he's made into an assist trophy. Besides, he could act like that goat Pokemon from Smash 4. (way behind on Pokemon, so I'm not sure of names)

I'd love to see Rambi turn up as an assist trophy! For that matter, Cranky could be pretty funny as an assist trophy as well (if not playable). Imagine spawning him and hearing the screams of your friends as they frantically try to outrun a grumpy old kong swinging his cane menacingly.