Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Still don't think it puts noctis out of smash possibility, I mean look at Cloud really

Point taken.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

1 of 3 for me

1. Terra - From my favourite FF game, my second favourite FF protagonist and another female fighter to the roster.

2. White Mage - I want some sort of healing character in the game, I don't know how it'd work, but I guess White Mage could fit the bill (my first choice for healing char would be Paula or Lissa)

3. NOT FIRST 6 FF GAMES BUT. Noctis - I love FFXV and Noctis is my favourite protagonist, I remember hearing something about FFXV on Switch a little while back so, maybe?

A healing character who works best in double battles sounds really interesting, actually.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Cloud is the most iconic rpg protagonist.

It never meant anything for FFVII's remake coming to Switch. It's not an advertisement. It's just a character getting in due to being iconic and having a strong gaming history.

Cloud is nowhere near proof of that. People wanted FFVIIr on Switch because it's FFVII, an extremely popular game that needed a graphical overhaul ages ago(seriously, the game was really really bad-looking outside of cutscenes. It made up for it in other areas, but that was just poor, even for its time).

Cloud still had Nintendo appearances(and Sakurai's own statement suggests he wouldn't have been sure to add him or not if there weren't any), not that it was completely relevant to his reasons for adding, but they may have played a role if he had no cameos/small appearances at all. Or they may not have. Who knows. Sakurai's been clear on one thing at least; "Being on Nintendo is a bonus." That means it's one factor, but not a requirement.

 

[Bowserlick]

I want Mog from Final Fantasy 6.

I wonder if his terrain-transforming ability executed a la dance can work in Smash. Perhaps changing a small area or changing the weather.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Remember when FE and Pokemon rosters used to be debated daily?

 

[Diddy Kong]

What are some unpopular opinions/logic about requested/likely characters? I think Impa doesn't deserve to be in the game because no mater what and how she represents, she's still low priority. Young Impa and Old Impa are clearly different characters because that's how Skyward Sword portrays them. You meet them separately and they have different personalities. So Young Impa only represents Young Impa, which means she has a handful of games to her name. Or you could say both Impas are the same character but then Old Impa is much more deserving. Why add a character that can't be in their main form?

So what? What is Ganondorf's main form again? Definitely not the guy we've seen copying Captain Falcon for more than a decade, that's for sure.

Skyward Sword actually had Young Impa appearing as the 'main Impa' in the story line. That Old Impa exists is a total plot twist and only known if you've actually finished the game. Not much different as the Zelda = Sheik plot twist in Ocarina of Time.

In fact -conspiracy incoming- with all the changes in Sheik's moveset between Brawl and Smash 4, I think they at the very least have thought about swapping Sheik for Impa. Probably decided against it due to Sheik's veteran status. But I do think it's real weird that Sheik out of all the Zelda characters has gained the most changes in her moveset while she has the LEAST to work with.

Why I think this? The Ike-Chrom situation. In the Pit-Palutena codec conversations, Chrom is mocked that he would fight too similary to Ike. And we know for a fact that Chrom was excluded because he couldn't offer too much unique too the roster, but Robin did. That Palutena codec just convinced me that Ike being replaced for Chrom could actually have happened. However, Ike was hardly changed only updated to match his Radiant Dawn look. Sheik changed a WHOLE LOT. Might as well have been intended for a different character...

K.Rool and Isaac's exclusion are also part of a conspiracy btw.

You gotta believe me, cause after all, I got all the inside info.

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud is the most iconic rpg protagonist.

It never meant anything for FFVII's remake coming to Switch. It's not an advertisement. It's just a character getting in due to being iconic and having a strong gaming history.

Cloud is nowhere near proof of that. People wanted FFVIIr on Switch because it's FFVII, an extremely popular game that needed a graphical overhaul ages ago(seriously, the game was really really bad-looking outside of cutscenes. It made up for it in other areas, but that was just poor, even for its time).

Cloud still had Nintendo appearances(and Sakurai's own statement suggests he wouldn't have been sure to add him or not if there weren't any), not that it was completely relevant to his reasons for adding, but they may have played a role if he had no cameos/small appearances at all. Or they may not have. Who knows. Sakurai's been clear on one thing at least; "Being on Nintendo is a bonus." That means it's one factor, but not a requirement.

Not to mention Cloud and Link have been "rivals" among nerds since like, forever.

Spoiler

**** what Death Battle says btw, Cloud would push Link's **** in so hard it's not even funny. Only way Link even stands a chance to keep up is if he uses the Fierce Deity mask.

 

[Ura]

Remember when FE and Pokemon rosters used to be debated daily?

They still do.

Once Smash 5 or whatever rolls around you're going to hear a lot about it. Especially from ol' Uncle Ura here.

K.Rool and Isaac's exclusion are also part of a conspiracy btw.

Yeah. It's the Sakurai conspiracy that's keeping them from being playable.

 

[LunchmanJ]

So what? What is Ganondorf's main form again? Definitely not the guy we've seen copying Captain Falcon for more than a decade, that's for sure.

Skyward Sword actually had Young Impa appearing as the 'main Impa' in the story line. That Old Impa exists is a total plot twist and only known if you've actually finished the game. Not much different as the Zelda = Sheik plot twist in Ocarina of Time.

In fact -conspiracy incoming- with all the changes in Sheik's moveset between Brawl and Smash 4, I think they at the very least have thought about swapping Sheik for Impa. Probably decided against it due to Sheik's veteran status. But I do think it's real weird that Sheik out of all the Zelda characters has gained the most changes in her moveset while she has the LEAST to work with.

Why I think this? The Ike-Chrom situation. In the Pit-Palutena codec conversations, Chrom is mocked that he would fight too similary to Ike. And we know for a fact that Chrom was excluded because he couldn't offer too much unique too the roster, but Robin did. That Palutena codec just convinced me that Ike being replaced for Chrom could actually have happened. However, Ike was hardly changed only updated to match his Radiant Dawn look. Sheik changed a WHOLE LOT. Might as well have been intended for a different character...

K.Rool and Isaac's exclusion are also part of a conspiracy btw.

You gotta believe me, cause after all, I got all the inside info.

I have Pig Ganon replacing Ganondorf in my roster lol

I believe you that replacing characters is feasible. Happened with Toon Link replacing Young Link.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not to mention Cloud and Link have been "rivals" among nerds since like, forever.

Soooooooo true. And it makes sense. They're the two big swordsman, and some still consider Zelda an RPG(where only one game is actually one while the others have some elements of an rpg), which adds to the rivaly.

Never really saw Death Battle enough to judge much, so I won't reply much to the other point. I simply don't care too much about fictional fights to go nuts over it. I've seen some dumbbbb debates. I think I saw one, which was White Ranger VS Scorpion, an that was it.

 

[Deleted member]

Soooooooo true. And it makes sense. They're the two big swordsman, and some still consider Zelda an RPG(where only one game is actually one while the others have some elements of an rpg), which adds to the rivaly.

Never really saw Death Battle enough to judge much, so I won't reply much to the other point. I simply don't care too much about fictional fights to go nuts over it. I've seen some dumbbbb debates. I think I saw one, which was White Ranger VS Scorpion, an that was it.

Ahh, I've seen those. Super dope. Those are settled more by fan vote counts than actual insight into what they can do.

I like how they got the dude that ACTUALLY played the White/Green Ranger, to do the fight. He does MMA too iirc.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ahh, I've seen those. Super dope. Those are settled more by fan vote counts than actual insight into what they can do.

I like how they got the dude that ACTUALLY played the White/Green Ranger, to do the fight. He does MMA too iirc.

Yep. I'm a huge Power Rangers fans. Jason David Frank was even going to be in Ninja Storm, but the move to New Zealand cancelled those plans. Also part of why there's no Ninja Storm Wild Force team-up.

I honestly remember(although it might've just been a dream) that he visited our schools to show a bit of his martial arts training. He was able to do a full moon kick, which is flipping over fully while their foot touched the ceiling(or a huge height). That was cool. I have a lot of similar dreams like this that said, so I can't remember what's real or not anymore. Celebrity visits did happen. Some Packers too. It's really cool, even if you don't particular like a team, it's still great to see them in person. Mad respect for that kind of rough gameplay, and how hard they work and train.

Yeah, I like the fan votes more. Sometimes they don't bother to do proper research. Most fights are apparently exciting, even if inaccurate. But isn't entertaining the point, after all?

Speaking of, I was speaking in chat last night, and a suggestion for Young Link was the Great Fairy's Sword. Honestly, that could work well, since it's far more unique than some suggestions while not relying on transformations(which were scrapped).

 

[LunchmanJ]

How come nobody wants Animal Crossing characters? It's ridiculously underrepresented and KK Slider would be an amazing choice!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How come nobody wants Animal Crossing characters? It's ridiculously underrepresented and KK Slider would be an amazing choice!

Ridiculously? It has tons of trophies, 1 key protagonist, more than one stage, tons of musics, at least 2 assist trophies among the games, has some items...

Remember, playable character isn't the only kind of representation. Also, he's playable via a costume, for the record. There's many choices for AC beyond Villager. It's just a question of making them interesting. You could do a semi-clone using Isabelle or Tom Nook. But there's other ways to do it.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Ridiculously? It has tons of trophies, 1 key protagonist, more than one stage, tons of musics, at least 2 assist trophies among the games, has some items...

Remember, playable character isn't the only kind of representation. Also, he's playable via a costume, for the record. There's many choices for AC beyond Villager. It's just a question of making them interesting. You could do a semi-clone using Isabelle or Tom Nook. But there's other ways to do it.

I was talking characters.

The costume doesn't do KK justice. They can be clones of someone else so long as they have key differences that make them play differently like Melee Falco to Fox.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I have Pig Ganon replacing Ganondorf in my roster lol

I believe you that replacing characters is feasible. Happened with Toon Link replacing Young Link.

Toon Link was a sort of graphical update at most, but yeah I totally see your point. It's not like it's forever impossible to do this either. And I could also imagine potential of recycling movesets. You know the joke of Villager being so similar to Snake in a lot of ways? It's a good example of what I mean...

Ultimately, Sakurai probably decided against it due to potential backlash. So I doubts it's gonna happen. But a few recycled moves from cut characters? That's a given.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was talking characters.

The costume doesn't do KK justice. They can be clones of someone else so long as they have key differences that make them play differently like Melee Falco to Fox.

I was pointing out that AC isn't underrepresented overall. As I said, more than one kind exists. It's part of a series' balance. Some series lack certain things in return for more characters(Fire Emblem has zero items, barely any Assist Trophies, not a lot of stages, with all they really have being music and trophies).

I'm not against the idea of another character. But how would KK play? He wouldn't be an easy semi-clone/clone either. He has a weapon, after all.

 

[LunchmanJ]

I was pointing out that AC isn't underrepresented overall. As I said, more than one kind exists. It's part of a series' balance. Some series lack certain things in return for more characters(Fire Emblem has zero items, barely any Assist Trophies, not a lot of stages, with all they really have being music and trophies).

I'm not against the idea of another character. But how would KK play? He wouldn't be an easy semi-clone/clone either. He has a weapon, after all.

His attacks would be musical notes from his guitar, that create a song if stringed together in a combo. His playstyle would be very relaxed and care-free. EDIT: I have more ideas. Wait. He would be a little reckless as he does bad business practices like free music and would have some physical attacks that hurt him but also a parry that heals him. Done.

EDIT: Some of his moves will be guitar bashing and his musical note attacks could vary in which direction the sound goes depending on what tilt or aerial he uses.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

His attacks would be musical notes from his guitar, that create a song if stringed together in a combo. His playstyle would be very relaxed and care-free. EDIT: I have more ideas. Wait. He would be a little reckless and

This kind of reminds me of Donkey Kong's Final Smash. Could you explain how to create multiple moves using this gimmick?

It sounds interesting. (I wonder if there's a K. K. Slider thread that could give you some ideas?)

 

[LunchmanJ]

This kind of reminds me of Donkey Kong's Final Smash. Could you explain how to create multiple moves using this gimmick?

It sounds interesting. (I wonder if there's a K. K. Slider thread that could give you some ideas?)

I edited my post to tell you all of my ideas. I don't know what multiple special moves could be made from this gimmick.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I edited my post to tell you all of my ideas. I don't know what multiple special moves could be made from this gimmick.

Hmm. Seems simple and serviceable. Do reply when you get an idea of his playstyle a bit more. Too little information to judge at the moment~

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

How come nobody wants Animal Crossing characters? It's ridiculously underrepresented and KK Slider would be an amazing choice!

Who the heck would they put in other than Villager? If Villager never got in I could see the reasoning for KK/T. Nook/Isabelle but with the only playable character in Animal Crossing already in Smash why does it need anymore?

Personally I hope for more Animal Crossing stages & items, there's still much potential there methinks

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes add Tom Nook to break kneecaps!
In all seriousness, Animal Crossing doesn't really HAVE much to work with in terms of characters. Closest I saw as a suggestion was Isabelle as a clown fighter (I think Opossum came up with this)

 

[LunchmanJ]

Who the heck would they put in other than Villager? If Villager never got in I could see the reasoning for KK/T. Nook/Isabelle but with the only playable character in Animal Crossing already in Smash why does it need anymore?

Personally I hope for more Animal Crossing stages & items, there's still much potential there methinks

Just because a character isn't playable doesn't mean they aren't important. Both playable characters and non playable ones have dialouge, appear onscreen, can be crucial to the plot, etc.

Yes add Tom Nook to break kneecaps!
In all seriousness, Animal Crossing doesn't really HAVE much to work with in terms of characters. Closest I saw as a suggestion was Isabelle as a clown fighter (I think Opossum came up with this)

Tom Nook, Isabelle, and KK Slider.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just because a character isn't playable doesn't mean they aren't important. Both playable characters and non playable ones have dialouge, appear onscreen, can be crucial to the plot, etc.

Tom Nook, Isabelle, and KK Slider.

That wasn't her argument and you know it

You didn't read as again, the issue is what you can DO with the characters, not the characters themselves! I even listed Isabelle as the only one I saw with any real suggestions yet you ignore that!

 

[LunchmanJ]

That wasn't her argument and you know it

You didn't read as again, the issue is what you can DO with the characters, not the characters themselves! I even listed Isabelle as the only one I saw with any real suggestions yet you ignore that!

If it comes to the point that you ask why a character is necessary, then why do you even want characters? More characters is always better IMO.

I already stated what you can do with the characters. You're the ones who aren't reading. All a character needs to play completely differently is a couple of differences. Case and point: Melee Fox and Falco.

 

[N3ON]

More characters is always better IMO.

Weren't you the guy who was planning to cut multiple unique series staples from your roster?

Your logic really bends quite a bit to suit whatever your current point is, doesn't it?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If it comes to the point that you ask why a character is necessary, then why do you even want characters? More characters is always better IMO.

I already stated what you can do with the characters. You're the ones who aren't reading. All a character needs to play completely differently is a couple of differences. Case and point: Melee Fox and Falco.

Maybe TeddyBearYoshi isn't an Animal Crossing fan and thus doesn't care for more characters? Maybe she's a fan and is satisfied with what Villager does? Plus, putting in characters just for the sake of having an extra character isn't usually seen as a positive, people like to try and justify additional characters
You editted the post, meaning it's possible people, myself included missed the post initially because it was editted. Plus, Melee was clone happy to add more characters to save time, but for AC, what differences would there be? Tom Nook's chubbier so that could work but it doesn't fit his role in Animal Crossing, a salesman who you need to pay off your debt too

Weren't you the guy who was planning to cut multiple unique series staples from your roster?

Your logic really bends quite a bit to suit whatever your current point is, doesn't it?

I think you're referring to Spirit

 

[N3ON]

I think you're referring to Spirit

It was in a different thread. The ideal roster one.

 

[Luminario]

Do y'all just ignore these posts on what Isabelle can do? There's enough material in AC for Isabelle, Nook, and KK to all get in with barely any overlap with each other or Villager (not that they'd all get in at once, lets take it one fighter at a time). The only things that would probably be similar are stats, with all of them likely being floaty and slow.

I mean, Isabelle could clearly attack with Public Display Projects and held items like the party popper and toy hammer, utilizing traps such as Resetti manholes for ground mines and floating bubbles from the bubble blower as air mines to control the stage. Tom Nook could take Villagers Pocket gimmick further by turning projectiles into leaves that are held as opposed to simply being pocketed, along with attack with various furniture, carpets, outdoor renovations, and classic Tanuki Mario abilities. KK could have something to do with instruments and sound waves, I haven't thought it through much yet, but there could certainly be something there to use the various instruments in the game along with his job as a DJ.

There's so much to work with, and the series is massively popular and a multi million seller on every console since its debut barring the Wii U, it deserves more that one fighter at this point.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Weren't you the guy who was planning to cut multiple unique series staples from your roster?

Your logic really bends quite a bit to suit whatever your current point is, doesn't it?

Ever heard of changing your mind and clarification?

 

[LunchmanJ]

Maybe TeddyBearYoshi isn't an Animal Crossing fan and thus doesn't care for more characters? Maybe she's a fan and is satisfied with what Villager does? Plus, putting in characters just for the sake of having an extra character isn't usually seen as a positive, people like to try and justify additional characters
You editted the post, meaning it's possible people, myself included missed the post initially because it was editted. Plus, Melee was clone happy to add more characters to save time, but for AC, what differences would there be? Tom Nook's chubbier so that could work but it doesn't fit his role in Animal Crossing, a salesman who you need to pay off your debt too

I think you're referring to Spirit

Then she has a pointless opinion that isn't logical.

I warned it would be edited. Not necessarily changes to their attributes but small differences in the moves.

Also, does anybody else notice half the people in this thread are ignoring me, treating me like a troll, or attacking me despite my usually correct, original, and different opinion?

 

[A Distant Demon]

correct opinion?

Well here is your first problem

Then she has a pointless opinion that isn't logical.

And here is your second.

Opinions are just that. None are inherently superior than another unless one is backed by incorrect facts, in which case is it is simply uninformed. And calling someone else's opinion pointless is rude and only going to cause people to react negatively to you.
EDIT And please stop double posting.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Well here is your first problem


And here is your second.

Opinions are just that. None are inherently superior than another unless one is backed by incorrect facts, in which case is it is simply uninformed. And calling someone else's opinion pointless is rude and only going to cause people to react negatively to you.
EDIT And please stop double posting.

I legit meant to say logic but I have memory problems that don't let me post what I want to.

EDIT: And her alleged opinion literally has no point of this discussion, which is using logic to determine what the next Smash should be and shouldn't be.

EDIT: My logic may seem initially untrue but is eventually clarified.

EDIT: And there can be no the point to a discussion in this thread because there has to be a goal to it and repeating opinions to each other leads to nowhere.

EDIT: Thanks for not saying why I was wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

More characters is always better IMO

Nay.

Quality over Quantity.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I think we currently have both quality AND quantity, TBH

 

[Deleted member]

I think we currently have both quality AND quantity, TBH

Depends how you look at it. A large chunk of the roster lacks genuine depth. Especially compared to the likes of Guilty Gear and Skullgirls.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Depends how you look at it. A large chunk of the roster lacks genuine depth. Especially compared to the likes of Guilty Gear and Skullgirls.

Well yeah, because those are traditional fighters, and Smash is a party game designed around being able to be picked up and played by anyone.
Different audiences here.

 

[Deleted member]

Well yeah, because those are traditional fighters, and Smash is a party game designed around being able to be picked up and played by anyone.
Different audiences here.

Not quite. One's an AirDasher, and the other a 3v3 fighter, both subgenres born at around the same time as Smash, and putting their own spin on things as well.

You're right that those two have a more competitive focus than Smash though.

I wont argue over which approach is better as "different strokes for different folks," but I'd also contend that even casual play benefits more from more gameplay depth. After all, by mere virtue of having FFA + items, you've given enough to satiate casuals fans.

Plus, there are plenty of people who are heavily invested on the competitive side of Smash.

Personally, I've given up on the dream that this franchise will ever reach its full potential, however, I'd still argue that quality > quantity any day and adding more and more characters slowly chips away at any sense of depth or genuine variety found in the character roster. So, on that notion "more Characters" isn't always better. There is an upper limit to things.

This is also not something due to how I might personally wanna see things, but rather something I think people should keep in mind while speculating, if they wanna be accurate that is.


EDIT:
As an aside, I also wanna add that Skullgirls is the sort of game that can be picked and played by anyone as well. It's incredibly user friendly and accessible, and it's got tons of design elements that TEACH players naturally by just playing the game. It's probably THE most accessible fighting game out there (barring games like Dive Kick and that one with the robots), probably even more accessible than Smash in fact.

Just because a game is made to be competitive doesn't mean it can't be accessible and easy to pick up and play by just about anyone.

I do think fighting games in general could stand to learn a lot from Skullgirls, and Smash for that matter. Such as giving players the option for more casual modes of play to help them learn the ropes in lower pressure environments. The inverse is also true though, I feel Smash could still learn a lot from competitive fighters. It's not just a party game, it's a fighting game with a casual, party game mode as an option. And constantly referring to it as a "party game" undermines very real design choices that go into creating the game. Smash isn't just a game to cram as much fanservice as you can into it to cater to casuals. If that was the case, then why not make everyone clones of each other with few distinctions, a la Mario Kart. Why go through the trouble of balancing and elaborating the game as a fighter, if it's just meant to be a dumb time killer like Mario Party? You DO know fighting games are the most difficult genre of games to develop right? Due to how meticulous you gotta be with the playtesting.

If Smash was JUST a party game, why would you go through the ardous process of making it a fighter, when a simpler game would have sufficed?

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

OK! Hypothetical time. Let's say that in Smash 5, Cloud sticks around and Square lets Nintendo use a second FF character, one from the first 6 games. Who do you pick? Black Mage, Firion, Onion Knight, Cecil, Bartz, Terra, or someone else?

I actually really like the idea of Onion Knight, FF3 on the Famicom is criminally underrated IMO

As my most wanted 3rd party character, I have to go with Bartz. His moveset potential via the Job System makes his moveset potential very high. Anything that is in the FFV Job System, Bartz can learn it. There are many directions that can be taken with him. The question with Bartz from the moveset department would be on which direction could they go with him.

Still don't think it puts noctis out of smash possibility, I mean look at Cloud really

Cloud has Nintendo appearances prior to Smash for Wii U/3DS; Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, the Theatrythm series, and Final Fantasy Explorers. Noctis, to my knowledge, doesn't have a Nintendo appearance as of right now. Until Noctis gets a release on a Nintendo platform, it is safe to say he's not getting in.