Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[A Distant Demon]

The evidence is Bayonetta. Compare her requests to K. Rool, Snake, Wolf. Kinda seems like the tenth best character to me.

You can't base popularity on the echo chambers that are hardcore smash fanbases when the casual fans exist.

Not to mention places like NeoGAF which were 100% behind Bayonetta.

 

[Deleted member]

The evidence is Bayonetta. Compare her requests to K. Rool, Snake, Wolf. Kinda seems like the tenth best character to me.

To be fair, we really don't have any good indication of how requested the latter three characters were. Fan polls exist, yes, but those only represent a small portion of the Smash fanbase.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The evidence is Bayonetta. Compare her requests to K. Rool, Snake, Wolf. Kinda seems like the tenth best character to me.

Do you have proof Bayonetta wasn't the most requested character in Europe or Top Five in US?

Or do you only have fan polls which poll a small percent of the population?

Even then Bayonetta was fairly popular in those.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not a troll I just am not afraid of challenging the norm. I phrase things in that way because I'm tired of all the old expressions.

I was talking about Sakurai, not you. No worries. Sorry if I was too vague.

 

[Luminario]

The evidence is Bayonetta. Compare her requests to K. Rool, Snake, Wolf. Kinda seems like the tenth best character to me.

Even if Bayo wasn't the top spot, she's clearly incredibly popular, her moveset is aesthetically and mechanically unique, and she's a 3rd party newcomer. Y'all think a veteran or an antagonist that has been missing for a decade could compare to the hype that surrounded this queens reveal? She was a fantastic choice, even if her moves weren't balanced all that well.

 

[Zerp]

Plot Twist: The real reason Bayonetta is in the game is because Mr. Sakurai made an small mistake and accidentally read the Top 10 ballot results upside down.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Oh yeah. More ballot talk? My response? Who gives a ****.

Honestly, the ballot happened, it's over, Bayonetta came out of it, and she's awesome. I'm not mad in the slightest. Am I disappointed that someone I wanted wasn't the winner? Sure, but it's not like the ballot was going to be 100% most voted character only, cause at that point we probably would've got SpongeBob. Sakurai didn't cheat us out of a K. Rool, or Snake, or Isaac, or Ridley, or Goku or whoever else. He just chose from the more popular who would also be most interesting. And who could blame him? I'd rather have DLC go out with a bang like Bayonetta than a whimper like a cut veteran or, dare I say it, an irrelevant villain. Sorry, I love K. Rool and Ridley, but it's true.

Other than whether Sakurai wants to use the other results of the ballot or not I don't know why the Ballot question, and in turn, accusations of fraudulent results always has to be brought up. It's done, it happened, it may never happen again. At least we got 1 cool character out of it.

 

[Ura]

Top 5 worldwide in the ballot...

1. Goku
2. Shrek
3. Spongebob
4. Donald Trump
5. Bayonetta

I hacked the official Nintendo site to get this information. So yeah Bayonetta actually did place high. Relative to video game characters at least. Poor King Krusty Rool didn't stand a chance against the almighty Bayo.

*this is a very serious post*

Oh yeah. More ballot talk? My response? Who gives a ****.

Honestly, the ballot happened, it's over, Bayonetta came out of it, and she's awesome. I'm not mad in the slightest. Am I disappointed that someone I wanted wasn't the winner? Sure, but it's not like the ballot was going to be 100% most voted character only, cause at that point we probably would've got SpongeBob. Sakurai didn't cheat us out of a K. Rool, or Snake, or Isaac, or Ridley, or Goku or whoever else. He just chose from the more popular who would also be most interesting. And who could blame him? I'd rather have DLC go out with a bang like Bayonetta than a whimper like a cut veteran or, dare I say it, an irrelevant villain. Sorry, I love K. Rool and Ridley, but it's true.

Other than whether Sakurai wants to use the other results of the ballot or not I don't know why the Ballot question, and in turn, accusations of fraudulent results always has to be brought up. It's done, it happened, it may never happen again. At least we got 1 cool character out of it.

But for real though Snake would have been much more of a crowd pleaser than Bayonetta was. For pretty much all audiences. Willing to bet everyone would have been happy with that result sans the people that loathe the idea of third parties having any presence in Smash Bros.

Then again legal issues and stuff could have hurt him. I just feel like he would have been a better choice.

Plot Twist: The real reason Bayonetta is in the game is because Mr. Sakurai made an small mistake and accidentally read the Top 10 ballot results upside down.

The deepest lore.

 

[Deleted member]

And who could blame him? I'd rather have DLC go out with a bang like Bayonetta than a whimper like a cut veteran or, dare I say it, an irrelevant villain. Sorry, I love K. Rool and Ridley, but it's true.

....except only K. Rool was irrelevant. Ridley had a different issue entirely. One that the Ballot wouldn't have changed anyway and most people knew that.

 

[N3ON]

To me it seems deliberate, not coincidental, that Nintendo didn't include any new Nintendo characters as part of the DLC, ballot included. The promotional addition of Corrin (who, if not for the fortuitous timing, wouldn't have been included going forward anyway) being the exception. One can only speculate as to why, but I'd guess they're holding onto some of those characters as potential options down the line.

Top 5 worldwide in the ballot...

1. Goku
2. Shrek
3. Spongebob
4. Donald Trump
5. Bayonetta

The sad thing is if the ballot had happened a year later, Trump probably would've got a lot of votes. :/

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I for one love how ballot conspiracy theorists never give their reason to why Sakurai would lie about a character's popularity. You can't get what isn't popular, say it's popular then expect it to sell amazingly. This isn't Ubisoft's 'iconic' stuff, and Bayonetta's only criticism is her being too good. Unless one counts angry ****heads going "WAAAAAAAAH MY FAVOURITE DIDN'T WIN THIS MUST HAVE BEEN RIGGED" as criticism

 

[Deleted member]

Smash Switch can use Smash 4 as a basic template. I think Smash 4 is the best designed and balanced in the series.

• Take out Custom Specials (except for Mii's which can be further re-dsigned to have full custom movesets)
• Add more modes
• Add a new character feature such as a tagteam move
• Add an adventure move with stages based on character worlds
• Add a Smash Museum
• Have multiple costumes which can be unlocked
• Cut some characters ( semi-clones and guests, which can be added back as DLC later; also bring back another character that was cut earlier and not featured in Smash 4 as downloadable)
• Get rid of that stupid Smash boardgame

Now you can have a roster reaching 70 characters.

>remove the content in the game that took little effort to create
>add content that takes way more effort to create
>now we can have a roster of an absurdly ridiculous size that's a pain in the ass to balance

Sounds like a brilliant idea!!

I think Bayonetta wasn't the number one Smash Ballot choice. I think Sakurai purposefully chose the 11th or 18th character in terms of votes, so that there would be many highly requested characters for Smash 5.

Depends on how many people voted for her in Europe in comparison to the rest of the world.

But Ballot results will probably never be published, so it's not like we can find out.

She was Number One in Europe, and high up in Japan and NA, so I doubt she was that low.

It doesn't matter if she was no.1 or not. The ballot was not an election! It was a suggestion box!!

Why is this simple concept so hard for people to understand?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Do you have proof Bayonetta wasn't the most requested character in Europe or Top Five in US?

Or do you only have fan polls which poll a small percent of the population?

Even then Bayonetta was fairly popular in those.

Sakurai's poll when he revealed Bayonetta already sort of stated she wasn't the overall most requested character. She came in tops in a few regions, Europe being one of them (THEY SHOULD'VE SHOWN MORE LOYALITY TO THE BRITISH-CREATED K.ROOL FFS) but outside of that.. There's nothing. But the fan polls where pretty damn well documented if I recall. I mean, the whole ballot was on the internet after all- so is it that much farfetched to think that it's at least somewhat accurate?

K.Rool fans where not only vocal, we where massively voting like literally every day. The ballot was pretty fraudy because of that. And believe that K.Rool had quite a huge fan following around that time. K.Rool campains on Twitter, DKVine supporting the cause, a few random DKC / Rare fans all over the Smash speculation scene. I still have a hard time believing K.Rool did not came out on top in a few regions, most likely America in Top 3 at least, and Europe similary.

Now I don't wanna turn this into K.Rool propaganda or suggest Bayonetta was not a popular request. I will just say that out of all the popular picks, Sakurai choose Bayonetta because he found her the most interessting to work with. The K.Rool Mii Costume was already a testimony to the Kremling King's huge popularity, so he might've been at the very least considered but outclassed by Bayonetta.

And now that I think about it, Bayonetta has better moveset potential which shows in her moveset, K.Rool would've been a heavy weight which aren't exactly popular and he's not "relevant", and Bayonetta had an exclusive Wii U sequel to her game, plus she's from SEGA which already had Sonic in.

Lots of factors that made a lot of sense in hindsight. But I still don't believe she's the most requested character. I could believe that for Cloud, but not for her.

 

[PushDustIn]

I had Bayonetta in the research of top 20 for Japan.

I think K. Rool was one of the top request characters worldwide, but as Diddy Kong already stated, it made more sense to go with Bayonetta for a number of reasons.

The way Sakurai introduced the three was under the title "Three New Characters, As Diverse as Possible". Once DLC finished, Sakurai talked about how new unique characters keep Smash fresh.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was ever said that whoever got the most votes in the Ballot would be the winner anyway.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am also pretty damn certain that indeed Snake and Wolf got more requests than Bayonetta. And I think it's still weird that Wolf was excluded while he also was a low priority addition in Brawl who was lucky to get in because of a delayed release date (Sonic be damned).

Indeed the ballot was a suggestion box as Manly stated, yet with SO MANY DAMN VOTES how you skip over a character as relatively easy to re-add as Wolf?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Smash Poll is a suggestion box, but Sakurai did talk about it more like an election, to be fair. He treated Bayo like the actual "winner" too. And that's fine.

It's not like the other majorly top characters aren't relevant information as well. K. Rool's costume didn't come out of nowhere, and his words suggested that this could've also been part of why Geno got a costume at this time too. He talked about Geno's requests.

 

[Deleted member]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was ever said that whoever got the most votes in the Ballot would be the winner anyway.

This entire discussion hinges on the assumption that Bayonetta got in despite not being a no.1 pick, or at least not popular enough to be high ranked.

Bayonetta's ranking within the Ballot is completely irrelevant, so long as she got high enough to get noticed (which she evidently did) her actual placement relative to other "more popular" characters is meaningless.

If anything, Bayonetta being less popular than people would assume only goes to show that things such as "relevance" or "popularity" aren't nearly as important as most speculators seem to think. Having a potentially fun moveset in the eyes of the director is the only thing that takes absolute priority it seems.

Her getting in isn't a conspiracy, because popularity wasn't as important a factor. The ballot was the equivalent to me going "I need ideas for something to draw," and holding a poll for suggestions on my tumblr or whatever. I'm not gonna pick the most popular vote, I'm not bound to doing anything. I'm gonna pick whatever I like out of all the suggestions regardless of popularity. I'm merely fishing for ideas after all. Same exact thing with the ballot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Smash Switch can use Smash 4 as a basic template. I think Smash 4 is the best designed and balanced in the series.

• Take out Custom Specials (except for Mii's which can be further re-dsigned to have full custom movesets)

Removing custom special moves would be a dumb move. They can work out, when executed properly. If anything, you should blame the developers for making some of the moves practically useless to even be using. A few notable sins include the following...

• Shield Piercer: Unblockable, but knockback dealt is so low that Meta Knight can easily get punished, even when he does land the attack.
• Armored Jet Hammer: Super armor is a plus, but the move is heavily impractical for dealing less damage than Jet Hammer. Even when fully charged, it KOs later than an uncharged Jet Hammer.
• Mega Gunman: Better defense, but the gunmen deal less damage than normal. Seriously, if the gunmen have a longer start-up than normal, their shots should be stronger, NOT weaker.
• Warlock Thrust: KBG is too weak for the sweetspot, making the attack unable to KO until beyond realistic damage percentages. Ending lag also hurts, despite having less start-up lag. Literally has no advantages when compared to Ganondorf's other attack options.
• Dark Vault: Deals very little damage and knockback. Even worse than Dark Dive when you consider that its travel distance is barely noticeable.
• Wizard's Assault: Longer start-up should equal greater damage, and yet this attack is weaker than Wizard's Foot. Hardly has any advantages over Wizard's Foot.
• Farore's Windfall: Has no practical use on offense, as its meteor smash hitbox is just way too weak to KO anyone. Execution speed and ending lag duration are its only real advantages.
• Spinphony: I don't think I have to explain this one. It's just pathetic.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The ONE character I want cut the most from Smash 4's roster is the Mii however. To me, it was the most time-consuming worthless character addition they could add to the game. Give me 3 Dark Pits before another Mii please.

 

[LunchmanJ]

The ONE character I want cut the most from Smash 4's roster is the Mii however. To me, it was the most time-consuming worthless character addition they could add to the game. Give me 3 Dark Pits before another Mii please.

As someone grew up with the Miis, what's wrong with them? They're not the best character but they allow me to play as many characters who have no chance to get in like Naruto, Iron Man, and myself.

 

[Deleted member]

The ONE character I want cut the most from Smash 4's roster is the Mii however. To me, it was the most time-consuming worthless character addition they could add to the game. Give me 3 Dark Pits before another Mii please.

Now you're speaking my language. Those damn Miis are the only character I'd be genuinely to see cut. They're a waste of resources and space IMO.
And how could I forget those damn Mii costumes... They're part of the reason why the DLC was so overpriced.

 

[Schnee117]

As someone grew up with the Miis, what's wrong with them? They're not the best character but they allow me to play as many characters who have no chance to get in like Naruto, Iron Man, and myself.

It's just that their implementation was pretty poorly executed in regards to movesets. If they were to improve the implementation of them in a new game I wouldn't mind them.

 

[Luminario]

As someone grew up with the Miis, what's wrong with them? They're not the best character but they allow me to play as many characters who have no chance to get in like Naruto, Iron Man, and myself.

It just doesn't work that well. I can dress up a Mii in an Isabelle or Ashley costume all I like, but in the end it is just a Mii in a costume. Someone had the idea of putting Mii heads onto the actual fighters a while back, so if they're cut I wouldn't mind seeing something like that in its place.

Removing custom special moves would be a dumb move. They can work out, when executed properly. If anything, you should blame the developers for making some of the moves practically useless to even be using.

The problem is there's so many characters and so many special moves that it'll take time to think up a bunch of new ones that are good and to balance them properly. I'd rather they spent that time doing something more worthwhile because from what I've seen so far the general consensus is they're just not working out as hoped.

 

[Chandeelure]

Do you think Bandana Dee would use a spear, a parasol or both?

 

[Bowserlick]

Removing custom special moves would be a dumb move. They can work out, when executed properly. If anything, you should blame the developers for making some of the moves practically useless to even be using.

Special moves were a good idea. However, the implementation means that each character has 12 special moves. The DLC were not given custom moves (perhaps due to time restraints).

The next Smash game wants to have new mechanics, new characters & a new hook to lure in gamers. Manlyspirit did have a viable point: adding on each Smash game without taking anything away will lead to a bloated game that might be infeasible to create. I think special move customs (and Mii's) took up a large chunk of time. If research showed that they were extremely popular keep them. If not, rework or cut.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Smash 5 will be the last Smash. I predict the next Smash will have 10 newcomers and 7 DLC. It's pretty obvious what some of them are going to be: Dixie, K. Rool, Inkling, Spring Man, Ridley, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Waddle Dee with a bandana, and Decidueye. We may get Animal Crossing characters and Toad out of sheer importance. And third parties like Crash and Banjo & Kazooie. But after that in Smash 6? Isaac and... Lyn? Bald Bull (from Punch-Out!!)? It's a pretty pathetic set of 1st Party candidates. This is why I think Smash 5 will be the last. Modders can continue the games

 

[Deleted member]

Ridley

Dude.
I want Ridley in as much as the next guy.
But realistically speaking, he's extremely unlikely, to put it mildly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The fact the DLC characters didn't get custom specials is part of the issue too. But otherwise, there's nothing wrong with them bar some balance issues and how stupidly hard they can be to get them all. The RNG system is jank in 4. That's not exactly an issue with customs at all, which are implemented pretty well.

Also, I actually prefer the Mii Fighters far more than just a Wii-based moveset. This allows something that pleases far more fans, which is just what is implied, the ability to play as impossible characters. Not literally as some costumes aren't available(for instance, Ridley), but close enough to allow for creativity. All the customs are unique enough for them that there's tons of potential strategies as is. And even their default 1111 moves aren't really bad either. It's not unbalanced like Palutena's are.

As for the Ballot, Sakurai's wording(number 1 in Japan and top 5 everywhere else) does imply that popularity did still play some of the role in it. We know it's partially a suggestion box, but I don't think it's just that, and that she still won overall by being the highest voted. It's not really even hard to believe since he gave some pretty realistic numbers. That said, yeah, she could've been top 3 overall among combined votes too.

As for the idea that "Wolf was easy to recreate", there was no reason to as is. Don't forget that the 3 veterans fit extremely specific criteria to bring back. Mewtwo was a test to see if DLC would be popular among the Smash fandom. Roy and Lucas were a Melee and Brawl vet specifically. Wolf's only real chance was that he would have a game coming out within DLC time. Zero got delayed well beyond that. And that's assuming Sakurai did want to go for Wolf again, and not use the idea of Slippy, as Golden has noted as another viable character(I don't think Wolf would've lost to Slippy myself, but I can't deny that the frog was important too). Being easy to recreate is not reason enough alone. The fact he barely made it into Brawl showed how low priority he was. With no new games coming out anywhere near Smash 4's development time, he wasn't that important. Or nearly as popular as Falco, who did stay. I miss him too, but I can understand his cut. I was hoping he was DLC, but I can understand why he didn't come back too. Paying attention to the DLC reasons given, he didn't have anything of note at the time. "Just because" is not a reason for a DLC character. This isn't like Mii Fighter costumes. Wolf absolutely would still need some balance testing done. It's not "I can create a moveset", but how to balance it within the cast. Another thing is what to add from the latest game to keep him even more interesting, and Zero's delays made that a lot harder. Besides a possible redesign, there could be new moves or abilities that could fit the character well. Kind of hard when people would not get what's going on when they see an all new design and possibly new moves. It just comes off as "what the?". This is less of an issue with an all new character, since they can't judge it based upon anything but themselves. But people do care about how they represent their own games(see: Ganondorf), and that can cause controversy. It just wasn't some easy decision and there's quite a few factors to consider with character creation, movesets, and timing(relevancy).

 

[Bowserlick]

Th biggest flaw with the Mii's is that they required the time to build three characters, yet you could not play them online (originally).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Smash 5 will be the last Smash. I predict the next Smash will have 10 newcomers and 7 DLC. It's pretty obvious what some of them are going to be: Dixie, K. Rool, Inkling, Spring Man, Ridley, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Waddle Dee with a bandana, and Decidueye. We may get Animal Crossing characters and Toad out of sheer importance. And third parties like Crash and Banjo & Kazooie. But after that in Smash 6? Isaac and... Lyn? Bald Bull (from Punch-Out!!)? It's a pretty pathetic set of 1st Party candidates. This is why I think Smash 5 will be the last. Modders can continue the games

First of all, speculating DLC is kind of a bad thing imo, mainly because DLC is something Sakurai started thinking about after the base version of Smash 4 was finished and released for the 3DS (technically speaking, Mewtwo was revealed before Smash Wii U was released, but we can assume most of it was already completed by then). Making such a prediction right now just feels weird, especially if they work on DLC in the same way.

Second, you're forgetting that Nintendo can just make new games and IPs during the years that happen between two Smash games which, since Melee, has been about 6 or 7 years for each game. They may not have much right now, but when Smash 6 gets announced, maybe there's going to be a lot of potential newcomers? Heck, depending on how long it takes for it, Smash 5 could also have that kind of situation.

And finally, Smash games actually sell really damn well, often being not only one of the best-selling titles of the console they're in, but typically having huge sales by fighting game standards. For example, I think Brawl is the best-selling fighting game ever. So I don't think Nintendo would want to drop it entirely. Maybe extend the time between each release so they can have enough newcomers to make it worth spending time and money on, but not outright kill the franchise.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Th biggest flaw with the Mii's is that they required the time to build three characters, yet you could not play them online (originally).

Well, when you have the ability to make any kind of character, they have to have restrictions. People make very controversial designs. Of course Nintendo and Sakurai would be against ones that are things like Hitler. It's supposed to be a game with friendly online. It made entirely to make it solely "With Friends". Don't forget that customs had specific online rules too, and it made sense. Not everybody is interested in fighting random movesets. Some couldn't even get new moves for a while. For some, they just picked up and played the game, at best unlocking the few characters with a few matches. They didn't care about competitive play. Frankly, I'll be blunt when I say Sakurai handled it the correct way. With Anyone has to have some restrictions for gameplay balance, controversial designs(that's the problem with a character creator. There's trolls and they need to be swatted out first before they can cause trouble for others. Sakurai made sure to do that).

And every character requires tons of time to build and balance except clones. This isn't an issue whatsoever with the Mii Fighters. It's the first playable SSB-specific representation and honestly did it right. Far better than just taking a random Polygon/Fighting team member and giving them the options of tons of special moves. No balance. The way this is done, they actually bothered to playtest the options. And that mattered. This was handled actually extremely well. It's not like they weren't going to playtest all the characters as is(even the clones got balanced around the actual characters they were cloned from), so it's useless to act like the Mii Fighters are special in this regard. They didn't get extra playtesting at all. They just got a smart rule to prevent pointless trolling and controversy, and that was really the only special thing about them. Heck, they were better playtested by giving them all good 1111 specials that were serviceable. Palutena had a terrible spread for her base moveset. No other character had really poor base specials overall in the same way.

 

[Bowserlick]

The Mii heads are already visible in online battles on the selection screen. It would have been fine to include a non-custom Mii online where the only changes you can make concerns the face.

I like the Mii's, otherwise. If I removed custom specials, I would still allow the Mii's to be customized.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Mii heads are already visible in online battles on the selection screen. It would have been fine to include a non-custom Mii online where the only changes you can make concerns the face.

So... the actual problem? You are aware the face is the biggest issue here. That won't work. It would also just discourage players from even using them. While there's a tiny select few default faces, that's not what people want to use. They want to use their own. Also, in order for them to be in For Glory, it would have to use Mii Fighting Team options only, with only the default faces. Being those are actually NPC's as is, it makes sense that they're not playable in that mode.

Honestly, it's better they did it this way because it requires less additional programming to "censor" them, and it really doesn't much affect anything. Palutena and the Miis were not designed around For Flory, and Miis are too abusable within With Anyone. So they fixed that issue entirely. It's for the best. Sometimes it's better that way. I'd rather not have them available in a simple mode(which isn't a big deal) than see completely unreasonable faces. It's not like these two modes are a big deal, and it's not like people won't abuse the fact they didn't have restrictions to tell them to cut it out. Also, people abusing these face designs would just see a ton of bans for trolling anyway. Notice how this issue doesn't come up? There's a reason for that. At least With Friends, you can discuss it beforehand. Meaning there's no issues that requires people reporting trolls to any near degree. And that's a good thing.

Plus, it's not like it's that easy to ban a "specific design" online, one that'll cause trouble. It makes more sense to ban the ability to abuse the unique customization feature, which leads to less problems in the long run. It was handled the smartest way possible to avoid as many problems as possible.

 

[LunchmanJ]

First of all, speculating DLC is kind of a bad thing imo, mainly because DLC is something Sakurai started thinking about after the base version of Smash 4 was finished and released for the 3DS (technically speaking, Mewtwo was revealed before Smash Wii U was released, but we can assume most of it was already completed by then). Making such a prediction right now just feels weird, especially if they work on DLC in the same way.

Second, you're forgetting that Nintendo can just make new games and IPs during the years that happen between two Smash games which, since Melee, has been about 6 or 7 years for each game. They may not have much right now, but when Smash 6 gets announced, maybe there's going to be a lot of potential newcomers? Heck, depending on how long it takes for it, Smash 5 could also have that kind of situation.

And finally, Smash games actually sell really damn well, often being not only one of the best-selling titles of the console they're in, but typically having huge sales by fighting game standards. For example, I think Brawl is the best-selling fighting game ever. So I don't think Nintendo would want to drop it entirely. Maybe extend the time between each release so they can have enough newcomers to make it worth spending time and money on, but not outright kill the franchise.

True. P.S. guys I give likes to people who have good arguments, even if they are arguing against me. I'm no troll.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Judging popularity can be trick and also using words like, “realizable” makes things like Goku and such get thrown out.

I think a lot of it was to judge who to ask and then the stats just backed it up for Bayo and potentially cloud.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

The ONE character I want cut the most from Smash 4's roster is the Mii however. To me, it was the most time-consuming worthless character addition they could add to the game. Give me 3 Dark Pits before another Mii please.

If the Miis were cut from the roster of fighters, I think some of the costumes would be better suited for the rest of the roster rather than be cut along with the Miis. The opportunity for more non-palette costumes is still there. I'd like to see more costumes that aren't just palette swapping for freshening up the roster in a minor fashion.

 

[Bowserlick]

So... the actual problem? You are aware the face is the biggest issue here. That won't work.

Mii faces are already shown online during the selection screen as the player avatar. I understand the faces could have controversial designs, but taking away three characters online is a waste. You can always have a For Glory including Mii's & special customs and one that does not.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Chandeelure Why did you have to ask such a painfully difficult question? LOL So this is just all how my brain pictures things, but for some reason, I feel like it would be one or the other, but if both were used, I'd see the spear getting more use than the parasol, unless the spear just ended up being a projectile and nothing else... While the parasol could have lots of interesting properties to it, if diversity were a big factor, I'd say the spear would be chosen (especially if the parasol item wound up coming back from Melee). Also, Bandana Dee has used a spear more often than parasols, correct? On the other hand, Peach only uses her parasol for one attack, same with Villager (though that's technically an umbrella, OMG, huge difference), the parasol item could end up never returning, and I believe the parasol is more relevant when it comes to Waddle Dees in general. I guess what I'm saying is... I can't decide.

As far as my personal preference goes, I think the parasol is cuter, so that'd appeal. However, if he were to get the helicopter move with the spear, man, I'd have to get some of that action in my life.


On the topic of Miis, I thought it might be fun to consider a list of some of their DLC content, as a lot of it did seemingly give a nod to both past and more recent fan requests. I'll just list the costumes I feel have a place in this discussion (I'm sorry to all the monkey with a stick fans out there). Will also share some of my own little opinions on each considering possible character additions, related stages, and assist trophies.
(Edit after typing everything below: Wow, didn't expect this to be so long, sorry about that... Forgot there were so many DLC costumes...)

- Skull Kid (Because of Majora's Mask; the website also specifically mentions it giving the "Skull Kid look"): Skull Kid is a character I've heard mentioned as a desired newcomer a lot by casual and competitive players alike, even though some of them haven't even played the N64 Zelda titles or their remakes... Personally, I don't think he's likely compared to other seemingly more relevant LoZ characters unless the project leaders want to wow everyone with a popular blast from the past. I realize he has some kind of relevance thanks to the MM remake and Hyrule Warriors, but yeah, just my thoughts, and those of others I've seen discuss him here as well. As far as stage content goes, we could perhaps see a return of Termina: Great Bay?
- Mega Man X: I don't see why we'd ever get another Mega Man, unless the current one were to get replaced, but I don't see that either, unless Capcom made some tremendous push, which doesn't seem likely... I feel like if we got another Capcom character, it would be one from a different series. Wouldn't think we'd get a second Mega Man themed stage, either.
- Proto Man: The most I can see for Proto Man is either a costume for Mega Man, which would be a shame considering he has some different properties to him (his shield), or a Dark Pit-esque last minute clone, which wouldn't be likely for a 3rd party character, seems to me. Same opinion on stage content as Mega Man X. Not sure about an assist trophy since we have Elec Man already, and he's actually less similar to Mega Man than Proto Man, seems to me (not sure if this means anything at all).
- Dunban: Though a popular character among Xenoblade Chronicles fans, I believe we wouldn't see his inclusion unless fan demand ended up being stronger and steady enough for several titles to come (seems like the desire for him as a playable character has died to some extent in favour of other characters as it is). Even then, I don't know if he would be popular enough among the casual crowd to make his way out of Shulk's final smash? I believe even Elma would be more likely, and I fear she may have missed her opportunity at this point (dang it). A second Xenoblade stage is a safe bet, I believe, but I would think it'd come from one of the other Xenoblade games.
- Isabelle: A pretty safe choice for an Animal Crossing newcomer due to popularity, and being at least one of the main faces if not the face of the series. If not a clone (which, I personally can't see her as a clone at all), some imagination would be required from the dev team for a moveset, but they have of course done this in the past, so that's not necessarily a hindrance as long as they deem her to be important enough, I suppose. Another Animal Crossing stage? Sure, why not? Could just bring over the one from 3DS that I never got to experience. I'm rather biased since I'm a big AC fan, but trying to be reasonable. LOL
- Heihachi: I have no idea. Not sure how a Tekken-like feel would be worked in while being unique. We already have tall characters who completely miss short or crouching opponents, so the high/mid/low attack system wouldn't seem all that new... He does have the benefit of being previously considered, I believe? Don't think we'd get a Tekken stage without having a Tekken character to go with them.
- Akira: I'll admit I really haven't played much of the Virtua Fighter series, but in a similar way to Heihachi, I'm unsure of what he'd be bringing to the table that would really make him stand out as a big new 3rd party addition. As far as I know, Heihachi would also be more popular among a wider audience when it boils down to that alone, but not totally sure about that. Same opinion on stage content as Heihachi.
- Jacky: See Akira.
- Zero: Now, Zero is a character from the Mega Man universe I could see appearing, being rather iconic and popular among various audiences. However, I still wonder if someone else wouldn't end up being chosen instead from a different Capcom series. Again, I don't think we'd get a Zero-specific stage without him being playable. Perhaps an assist trophy? I could see casual players getting pretty excited when he appears from an assist trophy (hey, I'd be excited too; he's got that cool vibe nailed).
- MegaMan.EXE: See Mega Man X.
- Inklings: Nothing to discuss. I talked to Sakurai's cat's girlfiend's aunt's cousin, and he said Inklings are guaranteed; most reliable source yet. Stage? Yeah, I think we'll probably get some kind of stage as well. If my incredibly reliable source ended up being wrong, we'd at least get an Inkling assist trophy, but don't worry, he's never gotten anything wrong before, and I speak fluent Meow Meow, so no possibility of anything being lost in translation either.
- King K. Rool: I really want to believe a DK newcomer is as close to guaranteed as possible... It definitely seemed to me that Nintendo was at least acknowledging fan demand with this costume, so his addition really wouldn't surprise me at all. I just wonder... I feel like Dixie and Cranky have a decent chance as well (more so with Dixie, though I'd absolutely roar if I saw Cranky getting in), so I'm not sure how much DK content the team would feel okay about adding? Could it be possible one of those other two characters would take his place? Wouldn't be surprised to see a stage from Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. At the very least, I think King K. Rool would get an assist trophy...
- Flying Man: I doubt they'd be playable... Maybe the Magicant stage from 3DS could migrate over to the next Smash.
- Chrom: Oh boy, uuuh... I think pretty unlikely at this point, sorry. :X
- Black Knight: Leaning toward him being pretty unlikely as well, like Chrom.
- Lloyd Irving: As much as I LOVE Tales of Symphonia, I think this long-popular fan request just isn't relevant enough to count anymore. It was surprising enough that we got a costume, honestly. Didn't see as much demand for him as I had during Brawl development days, either.
- K.K. Slider: I want to believe, but does he share Isabelle's status at this point? It doesn't really feel like it to me, but dang I'm a fan. I'd love to see some Club LOL content, perhaps making an appearance in a new AC stage.
- Toad: Certainly iconic, and closely associated with Nintendo's face, Mario. However, maybe a little too generic to see light as a playable character. I'd see Captain Toad before just plain Toad.
- Viridi: Not sure about this one... Somehow I doubt it, though I definitely think she's cool. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the Kid Icarus series and its prominence, however. Perhaps we could see a return of the Reset Bomb Forest stage?
- Monster Hunter: Monster Hunter has been quite a great success on Nintendo platforms, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a playable character, or maybe a Felyne. They also come from a different Capcom series, so they might make a bigger splash as a result. Wouldn't see a stage happening without a playable character. Assist trophy? I think a Felyne would work better for that, or perhaps even Rathalos himself! :O (Nah... He's more stage hazard material, I think.)
- Chocobo: Chocobo being chosen before other Final Fantasy characters? It is sort of a mascot, but I don't know... Really don't see this happening. As a side note, I'd enjoy a Chocobo Farm stage from Final Fantasy VII. True, it'd most likely be walk-off, but hey, it'd be cute and have some nice music. LOL
- Geno: Fan demand has been acknowledged in both negative and positive ways. Hasn't Square Enix been the big hold-up here? Geno seems like a decently safe blast from the past guess at this point, but I guess only if Square gives the okay, which would seem more hopeful now that he's seen an appearance in the form of a costume, as well as the other Square content I won't get in to. I don't think there would be a stage to go with him, personally.
- Takamaru: I think he's a strong possibility having been considered previously, being an assist trophy now, and having plenty of fans outside of Japan at this point. He might not be a superstar, but still a pretty safe retro pick. Not sure about a stage.
- Ashley: Super popular, and her popularity has been acknowledged in lots of ways besides the costume. I don't know if she can really be called relevant, but the demand is there, I think. Depends on whether her popularity outweighs other priorities, since I don't think she would fit well as a clone of anyone, so she would most likely require a dedicated development time slot.
- Gil: Uh, no clue. Maybe if Namco really wanted this to happen and Nintendo was okay with it? Doubt it. I was kind of floored by the costume.
- Tails: I think there are a lot of people out there who want another Sonic character, definitely among the casual crowd as well. He and Knuckles have certainly been getting a lot of attention again thanks to Sonic Mania. Would he make a big enough splash as a 3rd party newcomer? Don't know. Maybe he'll get an assist trophy that has him following the player who summons him, helping out with any nearby opponents; eh, it'd be something.
- Knuckles: Same as Tails.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mii faces are already shown online during the selection screen as the player avatar. I understand the faces could have controversial designs, but taking away three characters online is a waste. You can always have a For Glory including Mii's & special customs and one that does not.

They are not taken away online. People need to remember that they require you to use it With Friends to avoid trolling issues. Also, giving them a half-assed option for For Glory is pretty lame and does not make it "worth it". It's an even bigger waste to destroy entirely what they're supposed to be, characters you and you alone create, using a vast set of playstyles due to the custom moves. Remove any of those, and they aren't the same thing and barely worth it. There's a reason that even with playing with Customs off, you still use that specific Mii Fighter's programmed set of moves. They always have custom s preset when created, no matter what mode they're played in. You can't even use them in For Glory for that reason alone. They were never default 1111 by design. That's literally a player-made rule for some tourneys. The game doesn't see it that way as is.

For Glory presets everyone to having zero custom abilities. Mii Fighters have no legitimate defaults. Which is another reason they were never going to be playable in it. Just play With Friends instead. It's an online option that makes way more sense. With Anyone does not allow any customs. Since Mii Fighters have to be customized no matter what, it makes sense they can't be played under it. That's how they're designed in the game, inherently customized characters.

Just remember; Palutena's gimmick is that her customs are unique. Mii Fighters' gimmick is that they're all customized characters you create with unique special options. And one doesn't have defaults. Which kind of matters for the purpose of "With Anyone", which again, makes everyone their default. Since these characters have no defaults, obviously they won't be allowed. Really, what hurts more is their role in Smash Tour, which was already a poorly made game that was already hard to play due to RNG and actually being hard to properly control what's going on(to the point that Mario Party is less random).