Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Conversation has probably been done to death, and is unrelated to anything going on in the thread right now, but Smash 5 as a concept (regardless of if it's on Switch or etc; ) worries me.

SSB3DS/U has 58 characters. It took a ridiculously long time to develop, even longer to balance and a few of the characters didn't even come until post-launch. This isn't even considering all of the other modes/custom moves/etc;

How are they going to one-up that for a sequel in a realistic amount of time/development cost? Do they have to? There's no doubt the characters are one, if not the main selling point(s) for Smash. If they try to one-up it, how could we expect characters to be as unique, or as balanced as Sm4sh is? If they don't, it's likely a lot of fan-favorites will be cut in favor of different characters, and etc;

I don't want them to nor do I think they ever would, but I've also seen suggestions of rebooting the franchise or slimming it down to rebalance or redo it in a different and/or more streamlined fashion.

Look at the response to MvC from a casual audience and now think of how Smash's would react to these kinds of things. I guess I kind of rambled on here and don't really know what my point is, likely mostly nonsense but I suppose this serves as more of a basis for my question to Smash 5:

Where do they go from here?

I've given my exact thoughts on this a ciuple pages back.

A lot of people ITT don't like the discussion as the outcome is depressing in their eyes, and many prefer to believe the 5th entry can get away with having 70+ characters (it can't.)

Imo, we'll see a port of 4 with 3-4 additional characters and the 3DS content, and then that's it for the rest of the Switch's lifespan.

Series will likely go silent for a long long time, and then it'll be rebooted under a new director, as Sakurai seems adamant about not returning for a 5th time, and when you look at his reasons for returning for Brawl and 4, you can see the contrast in attitude.

You're right, they went all out hoping people would be satisfied. Most people ITT don't seem yo understand fighting game development or the resources that went into 4. Hiring Bamco for extra help, bringing back old devs from HAL Labs, licensing costs for lots of 3rd party characters, continued support with DLC, ample development time this tike around, tons of monetary resources in order to make it the best and largest game possible, etc... It was a costly game to make, and they're most definitely gonna milk that investment with a Switch port.

I don't see why nobody wants to consider reusing assets. ArcSys does it and Tekken still does iirc yet they still like fine. Smash 4 has the perfect art style for the franchise so you might aswell save all that hard work

Because those games don't have 57 character rosters, and game balance is something you have to contend with when making new additions to a game such as game mechanics or characters.

Changing anything in the game means you gotta playtest each and every character against every character on the roster again and again. The more deep a character is, the more thoroughly you have to playtest them too. There's a reason the Guilty Gear games barely ever break past 30 characters on their rosters.

Reusing assets isn't gonna save you from the playtest hell. The bulk of fighting game development isn't making models and animations, it's fine tuning each of the characters moves and combos against various MUs. Playtesting makes roughly 70-80% of development costs.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've given my exact thoughts on this a ciuple pages back.

A lot of people ITT don't like the discussion as the outcome is depressing in their eyes, and many prefer to believe the 5th entry can get away with having 70+ characters (it can't.)

Imo, we'll see a port of 4 with 3-4 additional characters and the 3DS content, and then that's it for the rest of the Switch's lifespan.

Series will likely go silent for a long long time, and then it'll be rebooted under a new director, as Sakurai seems adamant about not returning for a 5th time, and when you look at his reasons for returning for Brawl and 4, you can see the contrast in attitude.

You're right, they went all out hoping people would be satisfied. Most people ITT don't seem yo understand fighting game development or the resources that went into 4. Hiring Bamco for extra help, bringing back old devs from HAL Labs, licensing costs for lots of 3rd party characters, continued support with DLC, ample development time this tike around, tons of monetary resources in order to make it the best and largest game possible, etc... It was a costly game to make, and they're most definitely gonna milk that investment with a Switch port.


Because those games don't have 57 character rosters, and game balance is something you have to contend with when making new additions to a game such as game mechanics or characters.

Changing anything in the game means you gotta playtest each and every character against every character on the roster again and again. The more deep a character is, the more thoroughly you have to playtest them too. There's a reason the Guilty Gear games barely ever break past 30 characters on their rosters.

Reusing assets isn't gonna save you from the playtest hell. The bulk of fighting game development isn't making models and animations, it's fine tuning each of the characters moves and combos against various MUs. Playtesting makes roughly 70-80% of development costs.

That is irrelevant. Reusing assets means less time and money spent on building the characters from the ground up. Meaning more time for new content and balancing ****. If it isn't balanced enough, release patches. Y'know, like in 4 and what would have been done in Brawl if possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Tbh that take is getting more tepid by the day.

But Tepig is Gen 5.

 

[LunchmanJ]

What are the two/four biggest third party characters, taking into account history with Nintendo and impact?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

What are the two/four biggest third party characters, taking into account sales, impact, and history with Nintendo?

Including those already in Smash?

 

[LunchmanJ]

Including those already in Smash?

No.

EDIT: Sorry. I forgot this isn't a roster thread.

 

[Deleted member]

No.

EDIT: Sorry. I forgot this isn't a roster threae.

It's a better place to ask than the roster thread though.

 

[A Distant Demon]

The roster thread is actually the wrong place to ask that question. lol

 

[LunchmanJ]

It's a better place to ask than the roster thread though.

The roster thread is actually the wrong place to ask that question. lol

I didn't mean that. I was talking as if this were a roster thread where it's obvious you are talking about newcomers, but I realized this isn't a roster thread.

 

[StrangeTamer]

What are the two/four biggest third party characters, taking into account history with Nintendo and impact?

Tetris block and Phoenix Wright.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I mostly agree with Manly said. A roster as giant as Smash 4's isn't easily sustainable without a port. That's why I think a port is very likely, and that's also a reason they went for the ballot. Acces information about which characters are absolutely the top most popular request ever, and maybe add a few of them. I expect no more than 3~4 ballot-chosen characters. And I do think they will be made much like Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud; that is, based on other characters' movesets and / or basic playstyle with a big touch of personalisation.

This is also why I don't mind clones from this point on.

Because after all, a clone is much easier to play test and balance. As the other character it's been based up is already correctly balanced... Sort of.

If Smash 4 Deluxe adds a few ballot picks in DLC packs combined with a semi-clone and a full out clone or two, I think that would be ideal. And I wouldn't mind balant joke characters as Pichu or even Slippy Toad either. A outright joke character that's purposely made worse than the original akin to Pichu would then actually contribute to the balance in the game. It allows for worse designed characters as Zelda or Roy to actually have more meaning.

So yes, give me Alm the Ike clone, give me Dixie Kong the Diddy semi-clone, DK Jr. as a DK clone, Celica as a Robin clone, King K.Rool build up from Bowser's basic moveset akin to Ike / Cloud, Galactia Knight as a slower Meta Knight with bigger sword, Bandana Dee build up from Kirby's basic moveset, Raichu as a powered up Pikachu clone, Snorlax as a powered up ultra-heavy Jigglypuff clone (this works believe me).. What was your favorite character again? Oh that one, yeah base it of someone else as well... Slippy Toad as a Falco- clone but balantly worse (Smash 4 Falco says Hiiiiiii ), Tom Nook the Villager clone but voilent, Wooly Yoshi the floaty air-combat-based Yoshi clone, Sonic's friends copying him, Toon Zelda, Impa the Sheik semi-clone.... Young Link.. Throw in Waluigi as a Wario-clone even (this works believe me).

YOU NAME IT!

Since a lot of popular requests are somewhat similar to excisting characters anyway, why wouldn't they profit massively from this?

I might be mad, but I'm that smart kind of mad. Or so I'd like to believe... Sometimes.

 

[Deleted member]

Throw in Waluigi as a Wario-clone even (this works believe me).

Semi-clone at most. A full clone would not work.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mostly agree with Manly said. A roster as giant as Smash 4's isn't easily sustainable without a port. That's why I think a port is very likely, and that's also a reason they went for the ballot. Acces information about which characters are absolutely the top most popular request ever, and maybe add a few of them. I expect no more than 3~4 ballot-chosen characters. And I do think they will be made much like Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud; that is, based on other characters' movesets and / or basic playstyle with a big touch of personalisation.

This is also why I don't mind clones from this point on.

Because after all, a clone is much easier to play test and balance. As the other character it's been based up is already correctly balanced... Sort of.

If Smash 4 Deluxe adds a few ballot picks in DLC packs combined with a semi-clone and a full out clone or two, I think that would be ideal. And I wouldn't mind balant joke characters as Pichu or even Slippy Toad either. A outright joke character that's purposely made worse than the original akin to Pichu would then actually contribute to the balance in the game. It allows for worse designed characters as Zelda or Roy to actually have more meaning.

So yes, give me Alm the Ike clone, give me Dixie Kong the Diddy semi-clone, DK Jr. as a DK clone, Celica as a Robin clone, King K.Rool build up from Bowser's basic moveset akin to Ike / Cloud, Galactia Knight as a slower Meta Knight with bigger sword, Bandana Dee build up from Kirby's basic moveset, Raichu as a powered up Pikachu clone, Snorlax as a powered up ultra-heavy Jigglypuff clone (this works believe me).. What was your favorite character again? Oh that one, yeah base it of someone else as well... Slippy Toad as a Falco- clone but balantly worse (Smash 4 Falco says Hiiiiiii ), Tom Nook the Villager clone but voilent, Wooly Yoshi the floaty air-combat-based Yoshi clone, Sonic's friends copying him, Toon Zelda, Impa the Sheik semi-clone.... Young Link.. Throw in Waluigi as a Wario-clone even (this works believe me).

YOU NAME IT!

Since a lot of popular requests are somewhat similar to excisting characters anyway, why wouldn't they profit massively from this?

I might be mad, but I'm that smart kind of mad. Or so I'd like to believe... Sometimes.

But that just brings up a major problem. One of the reasons clones are so disliked is because of wasted potential. If you asked anyone before Smash 4 "Hey, imagine if Dark Pit was in Smash, what would you like his moveset to be?" I guarantee they'd suggest using weapons Pit doesn't use. But we didn't get that much to the disappointment of fans. Look at Ganondorf who people have been begging for changes. I've seen multiple people, myself included, be disappointed Roy didn't at least have his projectile attack as a final smash. Plus, your example with Alm! He may have a rather brutish style, but Alm can use bows, which could help make him different from other characters, especially as Fire Emblem characters are given flak for being too similar to eachother

 

[Opossum]

I mostly agree with Manly said. A roster as giant as Smash 4's isn't easily sustainable without a port. That's why I think a port is very likely, and that's also a reason they went for the ballot. Acces information about which characters are absolutely the top most popular request ever, and maybe add a few of them. I expect no more than 3~4 ballot-chosen characters. And I do think they will be made much like Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud; that is, based on other characters' movesets and / or basic playstyle with a big touch of personalisation.

This is also why I don't mind clones from this point on.

Because after all, a clone is much easier to play test and balance. As the other character it's been based up is already correctly balanced... Sort of.

If Smash 4 Deluxe adds a few ballot picks in DLC packs combined with a semi-clone and a full out clone or two, I think that would be ideal. And I wouldn't mind balant joke characters as Pichu or even Slippy Toad either. A outright joke character that's purposely made worse than the original akin to Pichu would then actually contribute to the balance in the game. It allows for worse designed characters as Zelda or Roy to actually have more meaning.

So yes, give me Alm the Ike clone, give me Dixie Kong the Diddy semi-clone, DK Jr. as a DK clone, Celica as a Robin clone, King K.Rool build up from Bowser's basic moveset akin to Ike / Cloud, Galactia Knight as a slower Meta Knight with bigger sword, Bandana Dee build up from Kirby's basic moveset, Raichu as a powered up Pikachu clone, Snorlax as a powered up ultra-heavy Jigglypuff clone (this works believe me).. What was your favorite character again? Oh that one, yeah base it of someone else as well... Slippy Toad as a Falco- clone but balantly worse (Smash 4 Falco says Hiiiiiii ), Tom Nook the Villager clone but voilent, Wooly Yoshi the floaty air-combat-based Yoshi clone, Sonic's friends copying him, Toon Zelda, Impa the Sheik semi-clone.... Young Link.. Throw in Waluigi as a Wario-clone even (this works believe me).

YOU NAME IT!

Since a lot of popular requests are somewhat similar to excisting characters anyway, why wouldn't they profit massively from this?

I might be mad, but I'm that smart kind of mad. Or so I'd like to believe... Sometimes.

Celica wouldn't work as a Robin clone at all.

Outside of Heroes, where she needed to in order to fit the game's mechanics, Celica doesn't use tomes to cast spells (Smash wouldn't have that limitation), doesn't learn Nosferatu or anything like it, and can't utilize pair up. Add to that that she can't change her weapons for Smash attacks and that her and Robin's sword styles are completely different, and that weapon durability, Robin's main gimmick, isn't in Gaiden or SoV, and she'd make no sense as a Robin clone. The only similarity is that they use swords and magic, but the way they operate is completely different.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Semi-clone at most. A full clone would not work.

Dr.Mario-styled clone with a little more personalisation maybe.

Celica wouldn't work as a Robin clone at all.

Outside of Heroes, where she needed to in order to fit the game's mechanics, Celica doesn't use tomes to cast spells (Smash wouldn't have that limitation), doesn't learn Nosferatu or anything like it, and can't utilize pair up. Add to that that she can't change her weapons for Smash attacks and that her and Robin's sword styles are completely different, and that weapon durability, Robin's main gimmick, isn't in Gaiden or SoV, and she'd make no sense as a Robin clone. The only similarity is that they use swords and magic, but the way they operate is completely different.

True she doesn't use tomes, but she could have her own gimmick of damaging herself with her magical moves. Full clone as say, Dark Pit obviously wouldn't work. But the main playstyle would. Zoning between magic and sword. For her regular moves they could look at Marth cause that worked with FEW too

Anyway, clones = future

 

[Luminario]

Celica wouldn't work as a Robin clone at all.

Outside of Heroes, where she needed to in order to fit the game's mechanics, Celica doesn't use tomes to cast spells (Smash wouldn't have that limitation), doesn't learn Nosferatu or anything like it, and can't utilize pair up. Add to that that she can't change her weapons for Smash attacks and that her and Robin's sword styles are completely different, and that weapon durability, Robin's main gimmick, isn't in Gaiden or SoV, and she'd make no sense as a Robin clone. The only similarity is that they use swords and magic, but the way they operate is completely different.

I thought we already agreed that Celica as a Robin clone/semi-clone would likely have the tomes removed and use % to use magic. Alter the specials, remove the Levin Sword, switch out the bronze sword for Beloved Zofia with boosted attack power, change a few animations to be more elegant like the run anim, and bam we got Celica with little fuss.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Why should Zero Suit be included in Smash? What is she supposed to represent when we got Ridley and Sylux to replace her?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I thought we already agreed that Celica as a Robin clone/semi-clone would likely have the tomes removed and use % to use magic. Alter the specials, remove the Levin Sword, switch out the bronze sword for Beloved Zofia with boosted attack power, change a few animations to be more elegant like the run anim, and bam we got Celica with little fuss.

I thought we agreed that was a dumb idea

Why should Zero Suit be included in Smash? What is she supposed to represent when we got Ridley and Sylux to replace her?

Because Zero Mission and an easy way to add a Metroid character as Sakurai couldn't figure out to make one work, Sylux was rather minor and Prime is beloved in the West, not Japan. I agree that in hindsight she's a pick I'm not satisfied with though, Dark Samus would have been better at the least despite Prime but oh well

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why should Zero Suit be included in Smash? What is she supposed to represent when we got Ridley and Sylux to replace her?

A reminder than Samus is neither a boy, a robot, nor Metroid

 

[A Distant Demon]

Why should Zero Suit be included in Smash? What is she supposed to represent when we got Ridley and Sylux to replace her?

Not every character needs to represent something.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why should Zero Suit be included in Smash? What is she supposed to represent when we got Ridley and Sylux to replace her?

She's Samus' other notable form, the actual humanoid inside of her.

Every "alternate" form is actually an extremely notable version of that person. That's the reason they first got in. It wasn't just "cause easy clone" in some cases. They also had to be recognizable too to work. And obviously were easy enough to develop within the timeframe of which they started clone development. Frankly, ZSS represents the human side of Samus, an extremely important thing about her character. She's not just a suit of armor.

Ridley and Sylux does nothing of the sort and have entirely different roles in the stories. They're also not nearly as important or plausible as options. Sylux is still a far lower tier character among the series compared to Ridley and either version of Samus. Ridley is already very difficult to balance, so adding him is nowhere near that easy. And no, it's not simply cause "he's too big", which actually is part of it, but you have hitbox issues with his long tail, how to properly balance his size while not making him look like crap when compressed to a smaller size, and also making sure fans will like him at a reduced size, while also using the latest design of him for relevancy purposes. Ridley has shown up in an important way in Brawl and 4(bar 3DS version), so it's not all that bad. Playable isn't the only representation, of course.

Sylux is getting up there, of course. But he only is starting to get there. He may be getting more notability in Prime 4, at least.

 

[Deleted member]

A reminder than Samus is neither a boy, a robot, nor Metroid

Except she is a Metroid.
In Fusion. :V

 

[LunchmanJ]

I say Zero Suit is totally useless. Toon Link is necessary to represent the child versions of Link, who are on equal footing with the adult Link. Which version do you choose for Smash? How about both? You know Samus is a woman from facts. What's the point of including her, a repeat of the same character if she doesn't represent anything important and is outclassed by Ridley and Sylux? I'm cutting ZSS from my roster.

 

[Bowserlick]

Smash Switch can use Smash 4 as a basic template. I think Smash 4 is the best designed and balanced in the series.

• Take out Custom Specials (except for Mii's which can be further re-dsigned to have full custom movesets)
• Add more modes
• Add a new character feature such as a tagteam move
• Add an adventure move with stages based on character worlds
• Add a Smash Museum
• Have multiple costumes which can be unlocked
• Cut some characters ( semi-clones and guests, which can be added back as DLC later; also bring back another character that was cut earlier and not featured in Smash 4 as downloadable)
• Get rid of that stupid Smash boardgame

Now you can have a roster reaching 70 characters.

 

[N3ON]

I say Zero Suit is totally useless. Toon Link is necessary to represent the child versions of Link, who are on equal footing with the adult Link. Which version do you choose for Smash? How about both? You know Samus is a woman from facts. What's the point of including her, a repeat of the same character if she doesn't represent anything important and is outclassed by Ridley and Sylux? I'm cutting ZSS from my roster.

Ok, but don't pretend you were going to listen to others anyway.

She represents a unique moveset and another Metroid character. That's why she was added. She remains because she's popular and unique. And she's only grown in prominence and popularity within her series since then. In reality, Ridley isn't going to be included and Sylux was barely a thing in like 2005 when ZSS was selected, and still has a long uphill battle to inclusion. When you aren't beholden to the same timeline or reality as Smash, sure, your roster will look different.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Mallo from Pushmo would make an interesting and unique addition. While also representing the puzzle game genre.

 

[LunchmanJ]

I feel like Robin and Roy should just be Smash reps. I find Robin pointless as Lucina represents Awakening better (if the series even needs Awakening reps since Fates is the best selling Fire Emblem), but he/she's a unique and fun character who has a fanbase, so technically he'l be in Smash because of Smash, and is thus a Smash rep. Roy is an irrelevant character only important in one game, but he has such an outcry for him. Also, he's kinda as close to a Smash character as it gets since he originated in Smash. Now that Fire Emblem isn't overrepresented in my roster, we can look to other reps. I think Lyn should be the last Fire Emblem rep. She's the most liked character from the first global Fire Emblem. In Project M speculation, where Fire Emblem wasn't overrepresented and only had 3 reps, Lyn was one of the most requested characters.

Ok, but don't pretend you were going to listen to others anyway.

She represents a unique moveset and another Metroid character. That's why she was added. She remains because she's popular and unique. And she's only grown in prominence and popularity within her series since then. In reality, Ridley isn't going to be included and Sylux was barely a thing in like 2005 when ZSS was selected, and still has a long uphill battle to inclusion. When you aren't beholden to the same timeline or reality as Smash, sure, your roster will look different.

Huh? I listen to people. I had my logic done, but I wanted to see if I was wrong about it. And I was. I made ZSS a Smash rep in my roster.

 

[Luminario]

I say Zero Suit is totally useless. Toon Link is necessary to represent the child versions of Link, who are on equal footing with the adult Link. Which version do you choose for Smash? How about both? You know Samus is a woman from facts. What's the point of including her, a repeat of the same character if she doesn't represent anything important and is outclassed by Ridley and Sylux? I'm cutting ZSS from my roster.

You're completely entitled to your wrong opinion.
She doesn't have to represent anything, she adds a unique moveset to the game, and she's clearly liked. If you really need her to represent something, then Metroid having the main character twice is a good way of giving the series another moveset while still keeping to the series' theme of isolation and hostility. Plus she's like super cool, who else is gonna bring a plasma whip gun combo to the game?

 

[LunchmanJ]

You're completely entitled to your wrong opinion.
She doesn't have to represent anything, she adds a unique moveset to the game, and she's clearly liked. If you really need her to represent something, then Metroid having the main character twice is a good way of giving the series another moveset while still keeping to the series' theme of isolation and hostility. Plus she's like super cool, who else is gonna bring a plasma whip gun combo to the game?

Read the post above yours. I made ZSS a Smash rep and didn't cut her.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Read the post above yours. I made ZSS a Smash rep and didn't cut her.

. . .that is just taking the rep argument to it's extreme.

 

[N3ON]

Huh? I listen to people. I had my logic done, but I wanted to see if I was wrong about it. And I was. I made ZSS a Smash rep in my roster.

Well then, who, prey-tell, suggested ZSS become a Smash rep?

 

[Delzethin]

It's worth mentioning that the Smash team doesn't look for characters for what they "represent". They're interested in compelling new additions to the roster, first and foremost, and being relevant at the time they're added as newcomers is also important if they're first party and not deliberate retro picks from the NES era or such. I don't know why so many fans focus so much on who "represents" what--still trying to figure out why--but it's far off the mark of how the Smash team actually goes about their roster decisions.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel like Robin and Roy should just be Smash reps. I find Robin pointless as Lucina represents Awakening better (if the series even needs Awakening reps since Fates is the best selling Fire Emblem), but he/she's a unique and fun character who has a fanbase, so technically he'l be in Smash because of Smash, and is thus a Smash rep. Roy is an irrelevant character only important in one game, but he has such an outcry for him. Also, he's kinda as close to a Smash character as it gets since he originated in Smash. Now that Fire Emblem isn't overrepresented in my roster, we can look to other reps. I think Lyn should be the last Fire Emblem rep. She's the most liked character from the first global Fire Emblem. In Project M speculation, where Fire Emblem wasn't overrepresented and only had 3 reps, Lyn was one of the most requested characters.

Huh? I listen to people. I had my logic done, but I wanted to see if I was wrong about it. And I was. I made ZSS a Smash rep in my roster.

Robin represents magic. The literal reason to why he was added. A staple in the franchise which had yet not been added in Smash. Getting rid of him is just ass backwards logic

 

[N3ON]

It's worth mentioning that the Smash team doesn't look for characters for what they "represent". They're interested in compelling new additions to the roster, first and foremost, and being relevant at the time they're added as newcomers is also important if they're first party and not deliberate retro picks from the NES era or such. I don't know why so many fans focus so much on who "represents" what--still trying to figure out why--but it's far off the mark of how the Smash team actually goes about their roster decisions.

Well they do sometimes. At least, when they choose the series/game before the actual character, I'd consider that looking for a representative first, and a character second. It doesn't preclude the fact that the character chosen still needs to be a compelling addition. Like, when the next proper Smash rolls around, I'm sure there will be a spot designated initially for "Pokemon from most recent/upcoming generation".

Of course it doesn't function at all like Mr. Lunch is suggesting. By his logic Mewtwo, Charizard, and Jiggs should all be cut because we have Pikachu to represent the OG games. Or relegated to "Smash reps", because that's totally how that works. But for all I know he might be trolling.

 

[LunchmanJ]

It's worth mentioning that the Smash team doesn't look for characters for what they "represent". They're interested in compelling new additions to the roster, first and foremost, and being relevant at the time they're added as newcomers is also important if they're first party and not deliberate retro picks from the NES era or such. I don't know why so many fans focus so much on who "represents" what--still trying to figure out why--but it's far off the mark of how the Smash team actually goes about their roster decisions.

I take both into consideration.

Well they do sometimes. At least, when they choose the series/game before the actual character, I'd consider that looking for a representative first, and a character second. It doesn't preclude the fact that the character chosen still needs to be a compelling addition. Like, when the next proper Smash rolls around, I'm sure there will be a spot designated initially for "Pokemon from most recent/upcoming generation".

Of course it doesn't function at all like Mr. Lunch is suggesting. By his logic Mewtwo, Charizard, and Jiggs should all be cut because we have Pikachu to represent the OG games. Or relegated to "Smash reps", because that's totally how that works. But for all I know he might be trolling.

Mewtwo is a big deal as a legendary Pokemon that has his own big section of the game that was foreshadowed from the beginning and has his own movie and a Mega Evolution. Charizard is the first big starter and represents the many popular fire starters. Jiggs, however is a Smash rep in my roster, and I AM NOT A TROLL.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

. . .that is just taking the rep argument to it's extreme.

Never mind it makes no sense. Both of Samus' forms originated in Metroid. Including her actual weapons. Yes, some of her moves started in Smash, but her gun is absolutely from Metroid.

Mr. Game & Watch is a unique variation since he's a combination of all of the unnamed characters in his game. The Mr. part is Smash original, but that's kind of it. Dark Pit actually had the costume in Smash first and could legit be called one. Roy actually appeared in Smash first too. Giga Bowser is a Smash OC entirely and has no official Mario appearances(although it's blatant he was based upon the factor that Bowser had a common tendency to turn huge or be a huge boss in some games). Mii Fighters are the first playable characters to official represent Smash, and that's due to the fact their moveset is 100% Smash original. Nothing is a reference to their own games. They're Create-A-Character based, so there is logic to that. R.O.B. has Smash original counterpart(Ancient Minister and R.O.B. Army), but that's it. And there's other various NPC bosses that are Smash original, but not playable; Fighting Polygon Team, Fighting Wire Frames, Fighting Alloys, Giga Bowser(at first. He only was under the Mushroom Symbol because of being a Final Smash respectively), Master Hand, Crazy Hand, some of the SSE-only bosses(that aren't Ridley, Meta Ridley, Porky, Rayquaza, or Petey Piranha. So about half?).

Smash Rep has two key points to consider officially; Their movesets aren't a direct representation of their games or they originated in Smash first. But the one thing that seals the deal is the symbol, which is the Smash icon. There's a reason that only certain characters have it.

People at this point are going to have to realize that the characters only represent the franchise that their symbol specifies. It's always been that way. The ones with the Smash icon blatantly do not represent the series of which the character may originate from(which actually only really applies to the Mii Fighters). While some movesets obviously aren't just moves they used originally(see: Ganondorf, Falcon, the Star Fox characters), some of their moves still show something that easily is a move that related to their series. Ganondorf's overhead punch(Forward Air) is taken from the artwork in OOT. His Gerudo Dragon is just a name reference, legitimately. Warlock Punch also does show what he's meant to be, one who is filled with immense power, but also he's a master of magic. Fact of the matter is, magicians can absolutely empower their body for attacks. This is common and a pretty reasonable use of a magician's powers who also happens to represent Power in itself. Not saying he doesn't lack a lot of canon abilities too, but it still fits his character well. Fox, Falco, and Wolf's lasers all are what their vehicle can do, as is their Forward B(a boost that the vehicles can do). Falcon's notable that he represents the speedy nature of his series, and his Falcon Dive is very similar to the boost in F-Zero. Falcon Punch actually could relate more to the spin attack you need to use to knock vehicles away, which is very powerful by design, although that one is harder to say. Raptor Boost is also a reference to the boost ability too. I could go on, but yeah. They still feel like who they are overall. This is something the Smash reps(Giga Bowser, the npc's/bosses, and Mii Fighters) don't. They really don't feel like who their original characters are at all. Bowser doesn't use random elements for attacks at all. He does have some dark magic, but that's it.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: "Rep" rant, you can ignore

Good lord, do I LOATHE the word rep, specifically when used in the context of characters and when typed like this.
Representation = Characters, Stages, Music, Trophies, Assist Trophies, Items, Music tracks... I may have missed a few.
Characters are part of the represenation but some people just can't see the bigger picture.
It annoys the hell out of me.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Never mind it makes no sense. Both of Samus' forms originated in Metroid. Including her actual weapons. Yes, some of her moves started in Smash, but her gun is absolutely from Metroid.

Mr. Game & Watch is a unique variation since he's a combination of all of the unnamed characters in his game. The Mr. part is Smash original, but that's kind of it. Dark Pit actually had the costume in Smash first and could legit be called one. Roy actually appeared in Smash first too. Giga Bowser is a Smash OC entirely and has no official Mario appearances(although it's blatant he was based upon the factor that Bowser had a common tendency to turn huge or be a huge boss in some games). Mii Fighters are the first playable characters to official represent Smash, and that's due to the fact their moveset is 100% Smash original. Nothing is a reference to their own games. They're Create-A-Character based, so there is logic to that. R.O.B. has Smash original counterpart(Ancient Minister and R.O.B. Army), but that's it. And there's other various NPC bosses that are Smash original, but not playable; Fighting Polygon Team, Fighting Wire Frames, Fighting Alloys, Giga Bowser(at first. He only was under the Mushroom Symbol because of being a Final Smash respectively), Master Hand, Crazy Hand, some of the SSE-only bosses(that aren't Ridley, Meta Ridley, Porky, Rayquaza, or Petey Piranha. So about half?).

Smash Rep has two key points to consider officially; Their movesets aren't a direct representation of their games or they originated in Smash first. But the one thing that seals the deal is the symbol, which is the Smash icon. There's a reason that only certain characters have it.

People at this point are going to have to realize that the characters only represent the franchise that their symbol specifies. It's always been that way. The ones with the Smash icon blatantly do not represent the series of which the character may originate from(which actually only really applies to the Mii Fighters). While some movesets obviously aren't just moves they used originally(see: Ganondorf, Falcon, the Star Fox characters), some of their moves still show something that easily is a move that related to their series. Ganondorf's overhead punch(Forward Air) is taken from the artwork in OOT. His Gerudo Dragon is just a name reference, legitimately. Warlock Punch also does show what he's meant to be, one who is filled with immense power, but also he's a master of magic. Fact of the matter is, magicians can absolutely empower their body for attacks. This is common and a pretty reasonable use of a magician's powers who also happens to represent Power in itself. Not saying he doesn't lack a lot of canon abilities too, but it still fits his character well. Fox, Falco, and Wolf's lasers all are what their vehicle can do, as is their Forward B(a boost that the vehicles can do). Falcon's notable that he represents the speedy nature of his series, and his Falcon Dive is very similar to the boost in F-Zero. Falcon Punch actually could relate more to the spin attack you need to use to knock vehicles away, which is very powerful by design, although that one is harder to say. Raptor Boost is also a reference to the boost ability too. I could go on, but yeah. They still feel like who they are overall. This is something the Smash reps(Giga Bowser, the npc's/bosses, and Mii Fighters) don't. They really don't feel like who their original characters are at all. Bowser doesn't use random elements for attacks at all. He does have some dark magic, but that's it.

They are technically both Smash reps and reps of their series, but I call them Smash reps because it's more useful for me.

What are the best Smash speculation channels? I know Source Gaming and RelaxAlax but who else?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They are technically both Smash reps and reps of their series, but I call them Smash reps because it's more useful for me.

Still doesn't make any logical sense.

And again, which ones are "technically both Smash reps". Please quote only the relevant passages when replying to me. If you're not replying to a part of my post, why even quote it? I'm guessing you're referring to the ones I said like Dark Pit, Mr. Game & Watch and Roy? They're actually the only ones who technically originated in Smash but also have the series symbol other than a Smash one. Rest don't count. Either because they do officially represents Smash(Mii Fighters) or have never appeared outside of Smash(Giga Bowser).

How is it actually more useful though? That isn't explained at all. They already have official symbols, so it's not like they aren't organized easily. Is it more useful to you when making the actual roster image? Or something else? Please explain more of what you mean.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

• Add a Smash Museum

Do you mean the Smash Museum style I keep talking about on the boards, Bowserlick ?