Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luminario]

And why would they give him a more unique moveset only to cut him the next game? That's pretty damn counter productive.

To be fair, how many people would actually buy a clone character? He was DLC, they had to declone him somewhat. He's got a lot against him: he missed 2 base rosters, his game is old but not retro yet, and he's a semi-clone in a franchise that isn't Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda that already has 4 unique fighters. Only time will tell if his popularity and easy-to-make semi-clone status can overcome those obstacles.

You cannot be the worst Lord if your main exclusive weapons is amongst one of the best weapons in the franchise...

I wonder if they gave him the best weapon in the series simply due to him being underwhelming thanks to promoting so late in the game.

 

[Phil Time]

I hope that I will have enough money to purchase the Switch before the year 2020.

I very much doubt that there will be a NEW Super Smash Bros. title for the Switch in 2018.

2019 could actually happen though. That is to say, if Planet Earth has not become NUCLEAR DUST in 2018.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I hope that I will have enough money to purchase the Switch before the year 2020.

I very much doubt that there will be a NEW Super Smash Bros. title for the Switch in 2018.

2019 could actually happen though. That is to say, if Planet Earth has not become NUCLEAR DUST in 2018.

Props for thinking straight my dude

 

[N3ON]

We simply don't know if there will be a promotional addition in the future or not. It's too early to assume either way.

It really depends if the protagonist is a Robin/Corrin or if the protagonist is a Chrom.

Well you can call it what you want but I see no reason why FE in Smash would stop taking cues from the newest iteration when that's the way they've always done things. Barring Marth ofc. I believe that is one pattern that does hold validity.

Though I suppose the exception would be if the future protagonist proves too similar to existing characters ala Chrom and there are no other noteworthy candidates, though I kinda doubt the latter part.

Ike isn't popular for nothing. He was about Lucario-popularity before Brawl. His games might not have sold extremely much, but that's cause it where the only internationally released Fire Emblem console games. The quality is still amazing till this day. You know for how much they are selling Fire Emblem Path of Radiance nowadays? Go ahead and look it up. If IS wants easy cash money, they should opt to do FE9 and FE10 remakes.

I think that's indicative of the lack of re-releases, the increase in series and character recognition, and the scarcity of the initial run than a metric of quality. If quality was the key factor shouldn't games like Wind Waker and Metroid Prime be going for as much or more?

Don't forget Intelligent Systems also really favors Ike, and they got a lot to say about the Fire Emblem roster in Smash. They work closely with Sakurai. Ike is definitely staying. And he damn better be, as he's one of my mains and my favorite ever Fire Emblem character.

Honestly I think, in retrospect, they just favoured Ike's recency. If they really and truly favoured Ike they probably would've wanted to stick him in FE:W, it seems like they had quite a large say over that roster. For being the second-most well known FE character (due to Smash, not FE) he doesn't get as much of the spotlight as you'd expect outside Smash.

*deep sigh*

You cannot be the worst Lord if your main exclusive weapons is amongst one of the best weapons in the franchise...

Not to mention viability in the series really counts for **** all considering we have had the likes of Pichu and Jigglypuff on the roster.

And why would they give him a more unique moveset only to cut him the next game? That's pretty damn counter productive.

Roy's moveset is probably a carry-over from Brawl when he was likely set to be diversified along with the other previous clones.

Also that's not really how it works. From all we're given to understand Sakurai just makes the best character he can with little regard going towards posterity. There have been completely unique characters that met the axe before.

Corrin is from Fates, the best-selling Fire Emblem title (kinda helps that there's three versions of it, but still), and is really unique despite being like most FE characters in Smash; a swordfighter with a counter. I'd say she's very likely and I say she because I bet female Corrin would be default Corrin simply because of popularity.

Don't really know how much sales matters when it comes to FE considering there's been little to actually indicate they do. They seem to just go with what's new. Case in point, Ike over Lyn and Roy, who were both also popular and had larger audiences. I'm not saying Corrin will be cut, though I think it's a possibility.

Really I don't wanna think about that potential Fire Emblem Switch. It hasn't been announced yet. As of now, I don't think any character is specifically more likely than another, but I could see Lyn make it due to her popularity, or Alm because he's recent, decently popular, and easy to include.

Wait, what? FE Switch has been announced. It hasn't been revealed, but it's definitely a thing. We'll probably see it sooner than later. And it's going to have more of an impact on Smash going forward than any of these existing games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly I think, in retrospect, they just favoured Ike's recency. If they really and truly favoured Ike they probably would've wanted to stick him in FE:W, it seems like they had quite a large say over that roster. For being the second-most well known FE character (due to Smash, not FE) he doesn't get as much of the spotlight as you'd expect outside Smash.

Actually it seems like KT had more say than IS at times.

IS had to push for Lucina, Lyn and Celica.

 

[N3ON]

Actually it seems like KT had more say than IS at times.

IS had to push for Lucina, Lyn and Celica.

Right, KT wanted to omit Lucina, and IS said no. Then we get another sword user who just had a game release. And apparently IS wanted her in (I don't know your source). Lyn too. Clearly KT's say was the lesser here. What would the rationale be for KT on loading up the roster with Awakening and Fates characters, a disproportionate amount being sword-wielders (something KT was against)?

It's not the best argument to use three times IS got their way over KT to prove how KT has more say in the matter. It doesn't seem like they do. Notice the trend of promotion over diversity when IS is involved?

Also, while KT has the power to say "we don't have the resources/time to include x amount of characters" it doesn't seem like they had the authority to say "we won't include x character". Let alone one that actually makes sense to add like Ike.

 

[Diddy Kong]

To be fair, how many people would actually buy a clone character? He was DLC, they had to declone him somewhat. He's got a lot against him: he missed 2 base rosters, his game is old but not retro yet, and he's a semi-clone in a franchise that isn't Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda that already has 4 unique fighters. Only time will tell if his popularity and easy-to-make semi-clone status can overcome those obstacles.


I wonder if they gave him the best weapon in the series simply due to him being underwhelming thanks to promoting so late in the game.

There are no semi clones of the Pokemon franchise. Mewtwo missed two base rosters to. Is he gonna be cut yet again?

Again, FE6 was as important for the revival of Fire Emblem as Awakening. Especially in Japan, and Sakurai was directly credited for the game.

Roy isn't in such a bad spot I think. The fact his and Lucas' inclusion was directly resulted from their popularity over other veterans is a good sign for him.

Also consider the fact that IS has showed interesst in remaking Fire Emblem 6 cause they wanted to properly introduce Roy to the West...

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

I'd prefer Ganondorf's moveset not go away and just passed on to Black Shadow but people really like to shut that idea down ****ing fast.

A bit late, but I'm under the impression this was an incredibly popular idea. I've heard it so often I'm surprised to hear that there's people against it.

 

[Bowserlick]

The new Smash is best cutting characters in order to add new ones. New game, new content.

DLC is always an option. This is how FE ended up increasing its roster with Roy and Corrin.

Marth, Ike, Robin and Corrin (hopefully with a Down B that is not a counter) seem most likely to me to stay as separate characters. Lucina may return as a skin or just as she was, without being further differentiated or as downloadable with a few changes. Roy may be pocketed again and perhaps released later.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Honestly. If you think about it. Both Roy and Lucas can't be that bad... I mean, both of them came in as DLC over Wolf.

 

[Luminario]

There are no semi clones of the Pokemon franchise. Mewtwo missed two base rosters to. Is he gonna be cut yet again?

Again, FE6 was as important for the revival of Fire Emblem as Awakening. Especially in Japan, and Sakurai was directly credited for the game.

Roy isn't in such a bad spot I think. The fact his and Lucas' inclusion was directly resulted from their popularity over other veterans is a good sign for him.

Also consider the fact that IS has showed interesst in remaking Fire Emblem 6 cause they wanted to properly introduce Roy to the West...

I was referring to the fact that FE isn't exactly a household name like The Big 3 and could potentially be lower priority when bringing back veterans, just like how Roy was left out for 2 base rosters. Yes, Mewtwo could be cut again seeing as how he was low enough priority to not make it into the base game twice now, though it seems like he's just been pretty unlucky with deadlines since he seems to just miss the spot 2 times in a row. With more Pokemon coming out each Smash though, we could see Mewtwo left out yet again for a new fighter.

I can't comment on FE6's importance on the life of the series, but I don't think it can be compared to Awakening's impact, seeing as it's Awakening that's always hailed as the savior of the series.

Roy was facing Young Link and Pichu for the Melee vet spot, it's not that surprising he was chosen over them, though he is certainly popular.

Like I said, he has obstacles to face and we can't be sure if his popularity or easy- to-make semi-clone status can overcome them. He's on shaky ground unless IS comes through with that FE6 remake some time around Smash Switch, cause we all know how much they like promoting characters through crossovers.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I can't comment on FE6's importance on the life of the series, but I don't think it can be compared to Awakening's impact, seeing as it's Awakening that's always hailed as the savior of the series.

FE's had its ups and downs.

FE6 was the first revival but we don't hear about it much as it was a Japan only revival.

Awakening is the second one but its the only one most western fans know about.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Honestly. If you think about it. Both Roy and Lucas can't be that bad... I mean, both of them came in as DLC over Wolf.

Factors that led to them two getting in above Wolf is a bit of a basket case. Though it seems that Lucas's popularity far outshined Wolf's in Japan and Roy was just the most popular Melee character aside from Mewtwo whom was released and planned WAY before the release or even planning of Roy and Lucas so popularity probably played a major role.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Still, I would believe that Wolf would be more popular (Not counting Lucas in Japan.) I mean, beside Ridley & K. Rool, I think Wolf were having quite the vocal fanbase at the time of Smash 4. Though it is what you said, it could be a lot of different reasons. Still shocks me a bit how Roy came before Wolf. Like, it could have been Pichu. Personally, I'd love the return of the glass canon fighter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still, I would believe that Wolf would be more popular (Not counting Lucas in Japan.) I mean, beside Ridley & K. Rool, I think Wolf were having quite the vocal fanbase at the time of Smash 4. Though it is what you said, it could be a lot of different reasons. Still shocks me a bit how Roy came before Wolf. Like, it could have been Pichu. Personally, I'd love the return of the glass canon fighter.

It's not too shocking. Roy is extremely popular, and due to constant Fire Emblem DLC/various cameos/appearances he's often still relevant enough to make him an easy choice for Smash DLC.

The thing is, when Sakurai was choosing some DLC characters, after Mewtwo was already in the game, he wanted one Melee and one Brawl veteran. Roy was the only really good Melee choice. That left Brawl between Lucas and Wolf. Wolf's last game wasn't new, and his newest appearance was constantly delayed. Lucas already had more overall popularity as is.

Basically, Roy and Wolf weren't really competing with each other for a DLC spot. Lucas and Wolf were.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Like, it could have been Pichu.

Pichu is literally the only character in Melee not planned to come back in some way.

He is someone I'm confident won't come back unless almost all veterans are back.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I want Pichu back as part of Pokemon Trainer. So ideally, for me, his roster would be:

Squirtle: (same as Brawl)
Bulbasaur: (a more agile Ivysaur)
Charmander: (a lighter/weaker version of Brawl Charizard)
Pichu: (same old Pichu)

As to his mechanics. Switching could now be done by taunting:

Taunt Up: Charmander
Taunt Left: Squirtle
Taunt Right: Bulbasaur
Taunt Down: Pichu

Switching is not mandatory, and when you're KO'd, you can choose your starter through taunt button before they respawn.

And no.
I can't let it go. I love my switch mechanic. And it would be cool to honor the SWITCH name by re-including him.

And sure. If that's too much Gen 1, then I have no problem having them be Gen 2 (how the original character was suoposed to be)

Seriously, I miss switching characters. ;(

 

[Deleted member]

And sure. If that's too much Gen 1, then I have no problem having them be Gen 2 (how the original character was suoposed to be)

No he was not.

cednym was confirmed to be giving false information.

 

[UserKev]

I want Pichu back as part of Pokemon Trainer. So ideally, for me, his roster would be:

Squirtle: (same as Brawl)
Bulbasaur: (a more agile Ivysaur)
Charmander: (a lighter/weaker version of Brawl Charizard)
Pichu: (same old Pichu)

As to his mechanics. Switching could now be done by taunting:

Taunt Up: Charmander
Taunt Left: Squirtle
Taunt Right: Bulbasaur
Taunt Down: Pichu

Switching is not mandatory, and when you're KO'd, you can choose your starter through taunt button before they respawn.

And no.
I can't let it go. I love my switch mechanic. And it would be cool to honor the SWITCH name by re-including him.

And sure. If that's too much Gen 1, then I have no problem having them be Gen 2 (how the original character was suoposed to be)

Seriously, I miss switching characters. ;(

This post has me like, I'd really like to play as Typhlosion.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't mind a Johto Trainer in the slightest since Silver was my first Pokemon game (but they have to have ), though the idea of having the Trainer concept return seems Farfetch'd, especially Johto-themed specifically.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Farfetch'd

I really can't escape the Poképuns... >_<

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Soon, The Pokémon Company's announcement of a brand new Pokémon fighting game, based on the popular fighting series known as "Super Smash Bros." ... Play as your favourite trainers, from Kanto to Alola, and use the switch mechanic at will, and create your team and become the champion!

Soon, in your game retailer store.





^
Talking about the return of Pokémon Trainer got me goofing.
(Oh yeah, even if it was not obvious enough, this was a commercial parody )

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I did once have a crazy idea for a Pokemon Trainer, where you could pick any six Pokemon to use as its team. Each Pokemon would have its own moveset.

 

[Bowserlick]

Grass types are the best. Switch Pokemon Grass starter for Smash. I call it.

 

[Deleted member]

Switch Pokemon Grass starter for Smash. I call it.

After the Sceptile and Decidueye bandwagons, can we not have history repeat itself?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Grass types are the best. Switch Pokemon Grass starter for Smash. I call it.

I don't think that "it's a Grass Pokemon" is really a good reason to justify a character's chances in Smash. It'd be like saying you want FE to have representation in the form of lances and axes just to complete the Weapon Triangle. So basically, it would completely destroy the chances of anyone who is arguably more popular and/or has more potential than said Grass Pokemon just to complete one of the franchise's tactical rock-paper-scissors that doesn't even exist in Smash.

I'd rather have a cool Pokemon that offers a really fun and unique moveset than a Grass-type who's just there because it's a Grass-type. However, if said Grass-type is the one with the potential for a really unique and fun moveset, then yes, I'd want it in Smash, but it'd be because of its potential, not its type.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Its type was only really relevant due to how Pokemon Trainer was designed. Since that concept is now gone, there's no reason to shoehorn in a Grass type. If for some reason the developers want to complete the triangle, sure, but I don't see a good reason to do so myself "just for the sake of it." Gameplay purposes(albeit, they were poorly implemented) is one thing. Just because is another.

They could be ideal timings to do so, but our grass owl(yes, I suck at writing that name) isn't the only popular Gen VII option. If it something like one of the most promoted and a major character in a spin-off, they could shine enough as an option, sure(or happens to be huge in the anime/manga. The point is that they matter, and not just cause they're a Grass type). But a lot of that requires really good timing. One that clearly has either not happened or wasn't important enough. I'd love the triangle finished myself, too, but there's a lot of cool options beyond one scrapped mechanic.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I hope that I will have enough money to purchase the Switch before the year 2020.

I very much doubt that there will be a NEW Super Smash Bros. title for the Switch in 2018.

2019 could actually happen though. That is to say, if Planet Earth has not become NUCLEAR DUST in 2018.

I know this is really immature but seeing someone say it will take them over two years to afford a nintendo switch made me laugh out loud for a long time. I'll see myself out now.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pokemon Trainer already demonstrated the trend. Also, Starters are popular.

Can't wait to soak up your tears with my Grass Type Pokemon in the next Smash. Super Effective.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Pokemon Trainer already demonstrated the trend.

The thing about Pokemon Trainer is that its design gave no choice but to have a rock-paper-scissor element to the different Pokemon to justify them.

In fact, one can argue it's the only reason Ivysaur was even there, because Squirtle and Charizard have a very great dynamic; Squirtle is fast and supposed to be good racking up damage while Charizard would be the slow behemoth that hits like a freaking truck.

Meanwhile, Ivysaur is that awkward guy at the middle who isn't quite sure what he is and decided to be more or less at the middle between the two, but also have a worse recovery than them, essentially making it relatively less useful and making the Pokemon switching gimmick that much more annoying.

However, if one of them wasn't part of that RPS triangle, it would've stood out and been an even poorer execution of the idea that it already is.

Also, Starters are popular.

Not every Pokemon in Smash is gonna be a starter Pokemon.

In fact, out of all the Pokemon characters in Smash, only 5 of them are starter Pokemon; Pikachu (Yellow only), Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Greninja.

Note how there are no Gen II or IV starters despite these generations having playable representation. Pichu for Gen II, Lucario for Gen IV.

Oh, and then there's the fact that Gen I had none of its original starters until Brawl. Instead, we got Puff.

Yes, starters are popular (which is normal since everyone is gonna see them), but being a starter doesn't mean the character will instantly be in Smash.

Can't wait to soak up your tears with my Grass Type Pokemon in the next Smash. Super Effective.

Grass is weak to fire, which over half the Smash cast uses. Have fun.

 

[Bowserlick]

The thing about Pokemon Trainer is that its design gave no choice but to have a rock-paper-scissor element to the different Pokemon to justify them.

In fact, out of all the Pokemon characters in Smash, only 5 of them are starter Pokemon; Pikachu (Yellow only), Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Greninja.

Note how there are no Gen II or IV starters despite these generations having playable representation. Pichu for Gen II, Lucario for Gen IV.

Oh, and then there's the fact that Gen I had none of its original starters until Brawl. Instead, we got Puff.

Yes, starters are popular (which is normal since everyone is gonna see them), but being a starter doesn't mean the character will instantly be in Smash.


Grass is weak to fire, which over half the Smash cast uses. Have fun.

The Pokemon Trainer mechanic was switching among the Starter Pokemon. The pokemon you must first choose and who you IDENTIFY with the most in some form or another. This is important. Astrology, religion, even ways of early healing were based on perceived natural elements. Humans have been exposed to this archetype for many generations. The slightly-more-damage to weaker types and fatigue mechanics seem like add-ons.

You argue only 5 pokemon of all the pokemon in Smash are starter types. There are a total of 9 pokemon. That means over half were Starter types. Very popular.

Starter pokemon are a key element to Smash that people enjoy and identify with. Therefore, I believe a grass type (and more specifically a Grass Starter) will make it into the next game. My vines are ready were your tears.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Pokemon Trainer mechanic was switching among the Starter Pokemon. The pokemon you must first choose and who you IDENTIFY with the most in some form or another. This is important. Astrology, religion, even ways of early healing were based on perceived natural elements. Humans have been exposed to this archetype for many generations. The slightly-more-damage to weaker types and fatigue mechanics seem like add-ons.

You argue only 5 pokemon of all the pokemon in Smash are starter types. There are a total of 9 pokemon. That means over half were Starter types. Very popular.

Starter pokemon are a key element to Smash that people enjoy and identify with. Therefore, I believe a grass type (and more specifically a Grass Starter) will make it into the next game. My vines are ready were your tears.

People identify with more than starters. Some only watch the movies and the anime, and sometimes non-starters are huge there. Lucario is a major example of this, even debuting in his movie before his first official game appearance(obviously it was to promote the games).

And again, Jiggypuff. Anime popularity at its finest.

Also, no, Trainer had more than one gimmick. The elemental triangle and the switching were both key gimmicks. The switching was necessary since your Pokemon would start getting sluggish after a while. You couldn't really just choose your favorite for the battle entirely. That at best was specific to the SSE, but doesn't apply to multiplayer or Classic/All-Star. The stamina mechanic is why the switching happened. The elemental triangle was intentional to show off the original dynamic in the main series, which is Fire > Grass > Water > Fire(repeat), which was only done via Starters. Since Starters are the most popular kind of trio that also have an elemental triangle, of course they would be chosen. It's not one or the other. Both played a role.

Type has never really played a role in a specific character choice for Pokemon beyond Trainer. Everything else was popularity or "I can envision a moveset easily"(and the last one is specific to Greninja). You're putting more into the idea Type plays a role than reality. Nobody is saying more Type representation is inherently bad, of course, but it's not a good reason alone. There's over 600 Pokemon. With this, the anime and promotional materials are looked at to help determine which ones. If that means Types overlay, so be it. As long as there's merit to the choice, as in their moveset being interesting, being heavily popular, being a heavily promoted Pokemon...

 

[Bowserlick]

People identify with more than starters. Some only watch the movies and the anime, and sometimes non-starters are huge there. Lucario is a major example of this, even debuting in his movie before his first official game appearance(obviously it was to promote the games).

And again, Jiggypuff. Anime popularity at its finest.

Also, no, Trainer had more than one gimmick. The elemental triangle and the switching were both key gimmicks. The switching was necessary since your Pokemon would start getting sluggish after a while. You couldn't really just choose your favorite for the battle entirely. That at best was specific to the SSE, but doesn't apply to multiplayer or Classic/All-Star. The stamina mechanic is why the switching happened. The elemental triangle was intentional to show off the original dynamic in the main series, which is Fire > Grass > Water > Fire(repeat), which was only done via Starters. Since Starters are the most popular kind of trio that also have an elemental triangle, of course they would be chosen. It's not one or the other. Both played a role.

Type has never really played a role in a specific character choice for Pokemon beyond Trainer. Everything else was popularity or "I can envision a moveset easily"(and the last one is specific to Greninja). You're putting more into the idea Type plays a role than reality. Nobody is saying more Type representation is inherently bad, of course, but it's not a good reason alone. There's over 600 Pokemon. With this, the anime and promotional materials are looked at to help determine which ones. If that means Types overlay, so be it. As long as there's merit to the choice, as in their moveset being interesting, being heavily popular, being a heavily promoted Pokemon...

Pokemon literally has you start picking the starters. This made the theme of pokemon trainer along with switching. Not a certain-element-causing 2 percent more damage to another element mechanic or fatigue.

Just like Sakurai tried incorporating another FE mechanic with a magic used named Robin (he even eliminated the stupid Down B counter), he was trying to incorporate another key element in Pokemon. The fatigue and damage mechanics were details added after. They were bad detail mechanics just like random tripping added in Brawl.

Pokemon starter type being a factor has already been established. Just like the elimination of Roy and Mewtwo were noticed, I bet that the director realized that fans of pokemon and Nintendo want their Grass (starter) pokemon.

I'm thirsty, give me your tears. Super effective.

 

[Aurane]

Can't wait to soak up your tears with my Grass Type Pokemon in the next Smash. Super Effective.

My vines are ready were your tears.

I'm thirsty, give me your tears. Super effective.

Drink. Some. Water.

 

[Bowserlick]

Drink. Some. Water.

Only water repelled by the human cornea after a soul has been soaked in sadness will quench this thirst.

 

[Aurane]

Only water repelled by the human cornea after a soul has been soaked in sadness will quench this thirst.

Actual water prevents dehydration and overuse of old memes.

Just saying.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Only water repelled by the human cornea after a soul has been soaked in sadness will quench this thirst.

You'd make a great politician.

 

[Bowserlick]

You'd make a great politician.

I use to work for them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I use to work for them.

That explains literally everything.

 

[Bowserlick]

That explains literally everything.

You have no idea what literally means. You can be a politician. I can help you with your campaign.