Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Antimatter042]

We already have a dog character who uses his mouth to pick things up my dude, theres more reasons why Lycanroc shouldn't be playable other than that

To be fair to Lycanroc's detractors who balk on those grounds, Duck Hunt has some skill on its hind legs that Dusk Lycanroc lacks entirely. I wouldn't want to see Lycanroc carry a crate or a Daybreak the way Duck Hunt does because it would totally break any suspension of disbelief there, I'm just trying to suggest alternate ways Lycanroc can do things where its mouth doesn't suffice. And could you elaborate on those other reasons?

 

[BluePikmin11]

So if Charizard reverted back to Pokemon Trainer as the only transforming veteran back, would you be ok with it? I heard some people saying that Charizard felt empty without Squirtle and Ivysaur, even with the moveset modifications.

 

[Roberk]

Are we sleeping on Monster Hunter? It seems one is coming to the Switch and the series has been on Nintendo consoles since the Wii. It's Capcom's third most successful franchise so it seems like it's something popular they'd want to push, Capcom also has good relations with Smash with Mega Man and Ryu in the game. The games seem to include a lot of interesting and unique weapons, fighting styles, and character designs. A lot of moveset potential for Smash compared to other speculated newcomers/third parties. It even got a Mii costume in Smash 4.

Monster Hunter seems to hit all of the marks: it's existence/popularity/success fits with the development schedule to be included in the project outline in 2016, it has appearances on Nintendo consoles and is even coming to the Switch, and it has a ton of moveset potential for a potential newcomer. I don't really see any negatives. It seems like a reasonable third party that would be hype for many with the series' ever-increasing success in the past few years.

I don't really know that much about the franchise, but it's something that I wouldn't mind and would actually be excited about with how cool its designs are.

 

[J0eyboi]

Transformations I heavily dislike, they're a huge drawback to any character and take away from their moveset.

Done poorly, sure. The transforming characters we've had in Smash have just been multiple normal characters stuffed into one character slot. But it's entirely possible to make a transforming character who's actually designed to switch between the two transformations on the fly. I believe Icons is doing it.

Honestly, expect a bunch of patches and dominate characters that were nerfed down like in Smash 4.

Hopefully this time the balance team actually understands the game.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So if Charizard reverted back to Pokemon Trainer as the only transforming veteran back, would you be ok with it? I heard some people saying that Charizard felt empty without Squirtle and Ivysaur, even with the moveset modifications.

No, because transformations fundamentally don't work on a gameplay level. Pokemon Trainer was a unique idea, but it didn't work in practice.

If it is found that something is broken and that "something" is fixed in a significant way, why waste the time to go back to the broken thing?

As somebody who avoided Pokemon Trainer except to mess around, I can firmly say that choosing Charizard as the singular Pokemon out of that was the right decision.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

To be fair to Lycanroc's detractors who balk on those grounds, Duck Hunt has some skill on its hind legs that Dusk Lycanroc lacks entirely. I wouldn't want to see Lycanroc carry a crate or a Daybreak the way Duck Hunt does because it would totally break any suspension of disbelief there, I'm just trying to suggest alternate ways Lycanroc can do things where its mouth doesn't suffice. And could you elaborate on those other reasons?

Random idea, creating rock constructs to hold them. Don't need to look fancy or even hand-like

 

[92MilesPrower]

I never really saw transformations being cut as a system limitations issue, but at this point, it'd be very awkward to bring them back with Sakurai explaining that it allowed the characters to be expanded on on their own, and not be "weighed down" or overshadowed by the other form(s) they have. Not to mention, the stamina gimmick for PT was ridiculous, and being unable to stay as Samus or ZSS after using the final smash is bad if you suck at playing as the other form.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

No, because transformations fundamentally don't work on a gameplay level.

There are transforming characters in other fighting games who work just fine. Well, stance characters, but mechanically that's an arbitrary difference. A good example is Gen from Street Fighter Alpha 3 or Voldo from Soul Calibur.

 

[Fenriraga]

We're going to get at LEAST one new Fire Emblem rep that isn't a clone. No matter how supposedly over-reppedo the series is it's a reality people are going to have to face. Fire Emblem got as many reps as it did for a reason: it's as popular as it is relevant.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

So if Charizard reverted back to Pokemon Trainer as the only transforming veteran back, would you be ok with it? I heard some people saying that Charizard felt empty without Squirtle and Ivysaur, even with the moveset modifications.

No. If anything, Charizard would be the worst pick to slap on back to a transformation gimmick because the Pokémon Trainer was one of Smash's worst ideas. Transformation characters weren't a good idea to begin with, but Pokémon Trainer was even worse for its other gimmicks: the stamina (which forced annoying switches) and the type gimmick (which ****ed Ivysaur over while Charizard and Squirtle had little to fear in that regard).

 

[Zerp]

Honestly, expect a bunch of patches and dominate characters that were nerfed down like in Smash 4.
Also it is going to be a bit hard to keep the balancing with more newcomers, but sadly cuts would make it a bit easier. I would not like cuts at all though.

This isn't really directed towards you but I've never understood the idea that roster cuts would help the game's balance in the case of smash. It'd make sense for most fighting games, but if the balance team is bad at balancing the game, then it won't matter how many characters they add or cut, nothing will actually save the game from being imbalanced since that's the root problem, right? And, if we judge by Smash 4's balancing where they, a professional studio, had 15 patches to correct their mistakes and still somehow managed to end up with a game that's arguably less balanced than a 19 year old game in Smash 64 and a fan-made mod in Project-M, yeah, I think it's likely they're pretty bad at balancing lol.

 

[SvartWolf]

regarding licanrock lack of hands... this is the kind of "issue" that developers work out instead of saying "sorry, cant do"

As for boxes, barrels, party balls (heavy objects) this could be simply done by licanrock biting the object and placing it on its back, and throwing them with either his back or its mouth. every character have a carring heavy object animation, and licanrock would be no exception, so it wouldnt be hard to make it look natural.

Not saying that lycanrock is in... but saying that it is not posible cause lack of hands was like saying that the reason ridley wasnt posible for smash is because he couldnt ride a gogoat ._.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

This isn't really directed towards you but I've never understood the idea that roster cuts would help the game's balance in the case of smash. It'd make sense for most fighting games, but if the balance team is bad at balancing the game, then it won't matter how many characters they add or cut, nothing will actually save the game from being imbalanced since that's the root problem, right? And, if we judge by Smash 4's balancing where they, a professional studio, had 15 patches to correct their mistakes and still somehow managed to end up with a game that's arguably less balanced than a 19 year old game in Smash 64 and a fan-made mod in Project-M, yeah, I think it's likely they're pretty bad at balancing lol.

From the article:

As I’ve noted and cautioned before, this isn’t a definitive tier list. Saturation of mains among popular characters is something that happens often enough that it makes using these charts as a viably guide a pretty bad idea. There is a significant amount of correlation between results and viability, of course, but these things aren’t good at accurate tier lists as they do not take match-ups or character interactions into account.

Tangentially, the balancing concern is all about that last part. Every character you add needs to be balanced in relation to every previous character. Adding a new character to 64 means testing 12 matchups. Adding a new character to Smash 4 means testing around 50. Even then, it's a huge simplification, the reality not being any more in favor of it being an easy task.

 

[Roberk]

I skipped Gen 7 of Pokemon since my 3DS was broken, so I've kind of been out of the loop. When Smash Switch speculation started a few months ago, the bandwagon for a Gen 7 Pokemon rep was Decidueye and I went with it because I love grass starters.

However, looking at Lycanroc, he seems to fit more than anyone else. Lycanroc seems perfect for his immense popularity and promotion. Just look at some of the Pokemon in Smash: Charizard, Pikachu, Greninja. These played significant parts in the anime by being Ash's ace and were heavily pushed by The Pokemon Company accordingly (Pikachu is a given since he's the mascot but it still kinda works). What Pokemon is being pushed as Ash's ace this generation? Lycanroc. Decidueye is basically nothing in the show and according to that Japanese poll is actually the least popular fully evolved starter (in Japan at least).

Lycanroc would certainly be unique by being a quadruped, a rarity in Smash, and his rock-based/rage moveset. I don't see how items can be a problem, seriously, items?

Random idea, creating rock constructs to hold them. Don't need to look fancy or even hand-like

This is a great idea from an outsider's perspective if he has rock powers, why not just make these rock constructs? With all of the awkward characters we've had, I don't see why Lycanroc would be left out because he didn't have hands.

The only real problem is his 3 forms, but this could be fixed. Just have the character be the most popular one, Dusk, while making the color palettes of the others alts. Boom, characters represented. Just want to note though: I have this crazy idea of Lycanroc being our first triple character and including all three forms at once. Kind of like Ice Climbers, It'd represent how they seem to be based on wolves and it seems neat. Just spitballing if people want all three forms to be repped/unique newcomers that really shake up the game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Based on the rest of the roster, and this isn't meant as an insult to the character, but Layton just...doesn't stack up I guess. Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic, Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta...Layton? I feel like part of the purpose of 3rd parties is to draw in fans of series that aren't as closely associated to Nintendo. Layton fans are typically already Nintendo fans.

Layton is more well known at this point than Bayonetta ever was before she made it in Smash. And before you bring up that she was a ballot choice, who is to say Layton couldn't be one of the characters that ranked high enough to be one as well? I mean it's not as if we know much about the ballot results (though given that Geno was a character that Sakurai wanted, your point is kinda moot).

Last comments- I don't think Celica would be done justice through being a semi-clone, and I'm not even sure anymore if we're getting anything for Fire Emblem until DLC. They have most of the mainstream characters covered at this point, so I'm beginning to think they'd be safe until then.

Most people already thought there were more than enough Fire Emblem characters before Corrin was added. Never write off the chance of a FE newcomer in the base game, though if that happens, some FE characters will be low priority since I doubt 7 FE characters will be prioritised. Sakurai already thought there were too many before Corrin was even added.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Layton is more well known at this point than Bayonetta ever was before she made it in Smash. And before you bring up that she was a ballot choice, who is to say Layton couldn't be one of the characters that ranked high enough to be one as well? I mean it's not as if we know much about the ballot results (though given that Geno was a character that Sakurai wanted, your point is kinda moot).



Most people already thought there were more than enough Fire Emblem characters before Corrin was added. Never write off the chance of a FE newcomer in the base game, though if that happens, some FE characters will be low priority since I doubt 7 FE characters will be prioritised. Sakurai already thought there were too many before Corrin was even added.

I'm not sure that Layton was more well known to fans of gaming in general than Bayonetta is/was. To Nintendo fans? Perhaps. But that, to me, is not really the point of 3rd parties in the first place. 3rd parties have the ability to draw in fans of things other than Nintendo in the first place.

I wasn't going to excuse Bayonetta for being a ballot pick. In regards to Geno, yes, Sakurai wanted him. He is not playable though. That is a key difference. He's a costume, which is pretty cool. But it's not the same thing as being playable.

There's always the possibility that Celica or someone could be added. But aside from that? That's pretty much it. I can see there being a twist with no newcomer being added. I'd love to see Celica, as I like her as a character. I would also be fine without a newcomer, that's really all I was saying.

 

[J0eyboi]

This isn't really directed towards you but I've never understood the idea that roster cuts would help the game's balance in the case of smash. It'd make sense for most fighting games, but if the balance team is bad at balancing the game, then it won't matter how many characters they add or cut, nothing will actually save the game from being imbalanced since that's the root problem, right? And, if we judge by Smash 4's balancing where they, a professional studio, had 15 patches to correct their mistakes and still somehow managed to end up with a game that's arguably less balanced than a 19 year old game in Smash 64 and a fan-made mod in Project-M, yeah, I think it's likely they're pretty bad at balancing lol.

They're not bad at balancing, they're bad at balancing Smash. These are some of the same people who balanced Tekken 7, a much more balanced game. The problem is that they aren't Smash players, and they didn't understand the game's systems well enough to do a good job balancing it. Besides, the game's not as badly balanced as it seems. There are 10 to 15 characters who are significantly better than the rest of the cast, and 5 to 10 that are significantly worse, but the balance in the middle's pretty good, which is why there's been so much mobility in the mid tiers throughout the game's lifespan.

Also, Smash 64 is balanced in the same way Street Fighter 1 is. Everyone's basically the same.

 

[Murlough]

So if Charizard reverted back to Pokemon Trainer as the only transforming veteran back, would you be ok with it? I heard some people saying that Charizard felt empty without Squirtle and Ivysaur, even with the moveset modifications.

No. If they are gonna waste time reprogramming Ivysaur and Squirtle anyway just give them a new move each and make them seperate characters.

Transformation is terrible and theres very few good arguments for it. Charizard is certainly not one of those arguments.

This isn't really directed towards you but I've never understood the idea that roster cuts would help the game's balance in the case of smash. It'd make sense for most fighting games, but if the balance team is bad at balancing the game, then it won't matter how many characters they add or cut, nothing will actually save the game from being imbalanced since that's the root problem, right? And, if we judge by Smash 4's balancing where they, a professional studio, had 15 patches to correct their mistakes and still somehow managed to end up with a game that's arguably less balanced than a 19 year old game in Smash 64 and a fan-made mod in Project-M, yeah, I think it's likely they're pretty bad at balancing lol.

Take away the bottom tiers and tippity top tiers (Bayo/Cloud) and the game is very balanced.

Its actually hilarious to me because when people were still figuring out Bayo and Cloud everyone was gloating to each other about how amazingly the game is balanced.

Since those two have been figured out I'm hearing "oh the balance team for Smash sucks."

Excuse me but **** that. They did a great job. Cloud and Bayo unfortunately were realised to be very difficult to deal with competitively very late in the games lifespan. As evidence the last patch exclusively touched Bayonetta (and one other thing I think was a glitch or something) due to fan outcry.

Since that last balance patch people further and further optimised Bayonetta and Cloud but the balance team had moved on. THATS why the meta is in its current state.

Honestly, I have had my fair share of salty experiences with Clouds and Bayos but SUCK. IT. UP. There will always, in every fighting game, be a best character. That is unavoidable. You go play any other fighting game and the top tier characters will either piss you off or be your main.

Just because they don't cease all other projects so they can patch Smash 4 indefinately does not mean they did a bad job.

EDIT: I double posted....thought this one was long enough that someone would have posted by then. Sorry....

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wasn't going to excuse Bayonetta for being a ballot pick. In regards to Geno, yes, Sakurai wanted him. He is not playable though. That is a key difference. He's a costume, which is pretty cool. But it's not the same thing as being playable.

The last part is largely irrelevant as the whole point of bringing Geno up is that there no actual rule that a third-party character has to be big (and Square Enix is the only reason why Geno isn't playable, not Sakurai). It's just an assumption you've made that icon status is important despite the fact that Sakurai has never stated anything like that. I remember making this assumption myself before being proven wrong.

 

[Lyndis_]

It's funny I was talking about more Monster Hunter content in Smash and got mixed reactions but now that they're actually localizing XX it's a big topic now, lol.

I seriously think Monster Hunter has a pretty good chance of getting more content in Smash. Stories, 6 amiibo, 4U, Generations, possibly XX all big in Japan on Nintendo systems all between the release of Smash 4 and the time Smash Switch would have started development? Seems like a perfect fit.

Monster Hunter would also be a good "rep" for the action RPG Soulslike genre, along with the benefit of already having content in Smash in the form of the Mii Fighter's not one, but two costumes of the iconic Hunter's and Rathalos armor.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Are you guys kidding me? Pokemon Trainer was one of the neater characters in Brawl, and if you take away the stamina/type gimmicks, I see no reason why he isn't a viable character again. There was nothing wrong with the idea, and frankly, Charizard by himself is far less interesting.

Samus/Zelda I agree splitting is for the best, but I'd love if PT game back with transformations as his thing.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You people are nuts! Pokemon Trainer was one of the neater characters in Brawl, and if you take away the stamina/type gimmicks, I see no reason why he isn't a viable character again. There was nothing wrong with the idea, and frankly, Charizard by himself is far less interesting.

Samus/Zelda I agree splitting is for the best, but I'd love if PT game back with transformations as his thing.

What makes Charizard empty by himself exactly? I must know the specific details. :O

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Not much different from the last one I posted a while ago but I felt like sharing.

Reasonings:

Spoiler

Paper Mario:
The fans may hate the series by this point but it's still going strong lol, Paper Mario would allow them to represent a different aspect of the mario series while creating a unique character in the process, doing things like using his hammer and partners like current mario doesn't do. He's another character that just makes sense in my mind and feels next in line to be added of the Mario characters, plus...he can jump

Dixie Kong:
One of the most obvious choices, a relevant character who is also popular with ample amounts of moveset potential to boot, I'll be shocked if she isn't in

Impa:
One of the less likely choices but I feel Zelda is very much due a new character and with impa gaining notoriety thanks to Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors where she was actually the second character announced after Link I think she makes sense, especially since she's one of few reoccuring figures throughout the series.

Bandana Dee:
An obvious iclusion tbh, he's essentially become the fourth main kirby character, appearing as a playable character in RTDL and Rainbow Curse, as well as appearing in Triple Deluxe (where meta knight didn't appear at all), Planet Robobot, and Star Allies as well as a bunch of merchandise. It's clear Hal is pushing them and I wouldn't be surprised if he were to appear.

Decidueye:
Feels like the obvious pick for a Pokemon representative due to how easily they translate to a fighting game, as shown with Pokken where it was the sole newcomer to advertise the Switch port, the archer archetype could certainly lead to a unique fighter. Also while not a major factor it would complete the starter trio and while some may dismiss that as not mattering it could still be a factor. This spot could honestly go to any Gen 7 Poke but I feel Decidueye lends himself easiest to smash, pokes like Lycanroc and Mimikyu may have popularity advantage but the roster was decided before the game even came out and they have their own problems too with Lycanroc being bipedal and Mimikyu's body type not lending itself as easily to fighting.

Isabelle:
Isabelle's become a mainstay to Nintendo as a whole in recent years, Isabelle was right there front and centre on the amiibo festival box, every promotional image of the AC amiibo had her front and centre and she was even playable in Mario Kart alongside Villager. While she lacks obvious moveset potential, I'm sure if anyone can come up with a unique one it'd be Sakurai and Nintendo would probably want her in regardless since she's so popular with casual fans and gamers alike.

Elma:
The Elma vs Rex debate has been a very polarizing one and I've gone back and forth on it myself, I stand by the fact that Elma is the more likely candidate due to timing, as well as how clearly and easily she would translate to smash while being a unique fighter. Another benefit to Elma is that she represents a different part of the Xenoblade series that is likely to be revisited if the games ending is anything to go by and Monolith themselves they want a switch port as well, as such Elma probably has a future with the series which I think helps her case.

Takamaru:
A character that has been considered for Smash multiple times over and has yet to make it in due to his lack of appearances in the west, however his game released in the west in 2014 and being an assist trophy and mii fighter costume has allowed him to gain further exposure, now certainly feels like a good time for his inclusion, not only that but he would likely be a very unique character as no other fighter uses a fighting style like him.

Chorus Kids:
A Rhythm Heaven character was seemingly planned for Smash 4 and didn't make it for one reason or another (Priority for other characters? Technical issues?) regardless Rhythm Heaven is still a series that Nintendo is pushing, getting a release in 2016 after all which certainly helps them out, now seems like a good time to add them.

Wonder Red:
One of the more out there choices but I still think it's a definite possibility, for one, he has ample moveset potential which I think is his strongest argument, two, Sakurai is friends with the games director Hideki Kamiya I believe, while Bayonetta was added too, that was because of the ballot, not his own personal choice. The Wonderful 101, while not a commercially successful game was generally well liked and Platinum want to port the series over to the switch, and Nintendo have consistently been supporting Platinum with the Bayonetta series. I think it could happen tbh.

Rayman:
A character that just makes sense, Ubisoft and Nintendo have been very friendly as of late, Nintendo even allowing them to cross ****ing Mario over with their rabbids series and them publishing Rayman Legends in Japan. Rayman, as well as Globox and Barbara were included as trophies in Smash 4, the only non-playable 3rd party series to get trophies. And Rayman is generally a fairly big, iconic and recognizable character, there's honestly not that many left that would work in smash.

Edit: In retrospect I just realized I only added 11 newcomers, tbh I'm expecting more but idk, maybe the rest would be ballot picks and I obviously can't predict who did well and who didn't

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Are you guys kidding me? Pokemon Trainer was one of the neater characters in Brawl, and if you take away the stamina/type gimmicks, I see no reason why he isn't a viable character again. There was nothing wrong with the idea, and frankly, Charizard by himself is far less interesting.

Samus/Zelda I agree splitting is for the best, but I'd love if PT game back with transformations as his thing.

Well the concept is neat, but I almost exclusively played Ivysaur. And I think that's what people are getting at. People would rather them all included seperately. But that's almost certainly not going to happen.

 

[LancerStaff]

They're not bad at balancing, they're bad at balancing Smash. These are some of the same people who balanced Tekken 7, a much more balanced game. The problem is that they aren't Smash players, and they didn't understand the game's systems well enough to do a good job balancing it. Besides, the game's not as badly balanced as it seems. There are 10 to 15 characters who are significantly better than the rest of the cast, and 5 to 10 that are significantly worse, but the balance in the middle's pretty good, which is why there's been so much mobility in the mid tiers throughout the game's lifespan.

Also, Smash 64 is balanced in the same way Street Fighter 1 is. Everyone's basically the same.

I believe Namco would of done a fine job balancing the game, but Sakurai didn’t care to let them.

I mean, look at the post Bayo patch. That compared to any other patch had a much more focused and direct effect on competitive play than any other patch. That was also after Sakurai left. I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There are transforming characters in other fighting games who work just fine. Well, stance characters, but mechanically that's an arbitrary difference. A good example is Gen from Street Fighter Alpha 3 or Voldo from Soul Calibur.

Those transformations may work, but the gameplay is the key difference. Those two games, despite one being a 2D fighter, and the other more of an "arena" 2D fighter (I don't really know how else to describe Soul Calibur lol) they don't function the same way as Smash, where a KO is earned from launching a character off-screen. It may work in those games, but transformations in those games wouldn't necessarily work/function the same way as they would in Smash.

The last part is largely irrelevant as the whole point of bringing Geno up is that there no actual rule that a third-party character has to be big (and Square Enix is the only reason why Geno isn't playable, not Sakurai). It's just an assumption you've made that icon status is important despite the fact that Sakurai has never stated anything like that. I remember making this assumption myself before being proven wrong.

I think it’s more of an unspoken rule.

If two companies are going to negotiate licensing rights for a character in an all-star crossover, who would be picked to be the big money playable character? A one off SNES character? Or arguably the most iconic RPG character of all time?

If you ask Square, they’d probably pick the latter. If you’re Nintendo, and you’re spending money, you’d probably still pick the latter because it has more potential to draw in fans from a different crowd other than Nintendo fans.

It really isn’t to say it wouldn’t happen. Layton could steal the show at E3 and I could be completely wrong. I simply believe that based on what we have and haven’t gotten, it’s a safe bet that business deals for characters will focus on the ones that promote/draw interest from outside fans and create the biggest splash.

Yes, Geno is a big request. Mostly among Smash fans. Smash fans are mostly people who are going to buy the game, and probably most if not all DLC content.

Regardless of whether it’s stated or not, it seems rather obvious to me that Sakurai isn’t going to just add the average joe gaming character, especially if Nintendo is to negotiate the deal to obtain them.

We may simply disagree on that, and that’s fine.

EDIT: This is also the first i’m hearing that Square rejected Geno, as i’m clearly remembering somebody from SE saying something in an interview with Sakurai that he was “excited” about Cloud being in Smash.

While that could entirely be PR (I wouldn’t necessarily doubt) I also doubt the theory that “Sakurai went for Geno but got Cloud instead. What a bummer!”

To me, that is ludicrous. I realize Sakurai said he “wanted Geno” to be playable. But to suggest he went for Geno and had to settle for Cloud? There’s no way i’m going to believe that one.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

What makes Charizard empty by himself exactly? I must know the specific details. :O

After having had him as part of the trio, he just feels less exciting on his own. The three starters all played differently, and it was fun to cycle through them during a match to mix things up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to still have him, but compared to the speedy little water turtle and the cool bipedal plant fighter... he's probably the least interesting/most obvious choice. As much as I like him, I'd probably rather one of the others stayed.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Not much different from the last one I posted a while ago but I felt like sharing.

Reasonings:

Spoiler

Dixie Kong:
One of the most obvious choices, a relevant character who is also popular with ample amounts of moveset potential to boot, I'll be shocked if she isn't in

Impa:
One of the less likely choices but I feel Zelda is very much due a new character and with impa gaining notoriety thanks to Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors where she was actually the second character announced after Link I think she makes sense, especially since she's one of few reoccuring figures throughout the series.

Bandana Dee:
An obvious iclusion tbh, he's essentially become the fourth main kirby character, appearing as a playable character in RTDL and Rainbow Curse, as well as appearing in Triple Deluxe (where meta knight didn't appear at all), Planet Robobot, and Star Allies as well as a bunch of merchandise. It's clear Hal is pushing them and I wouldn't be surprised if he were to appear.

Decidueye:
Feels like the obvious pick for a Pokemon representative due to how easily they translate to a fighting game, as shown with Pokken where it was the sole newcomer to advertise the Switch port, the archer archetype could certainly lead to a unique fighter. Also while not a major factor it would complete the starter trio and while some may dismiss that as not mattering it could still be a factor. This spot could honestly go to any Gen 7 Poke but I feel Decidueye lends himself easiest to smash, pokes like Lycanroc and Mimikyu may have popularity advantage but the roster was decided before the game even came out and they have their own problems too with Lycanroc being bipedal and Mimikyu's body type not lending itself as easily to fighting.

Isabelle:
Isabelle's become a mainstay to Nintendo as a whole in recent years, Isabelle was right there front and centre on the amiibo festival box, every promotional image of the AC amiibo had her front and centre and she was even playable in Mario Kart alongside Villager. While she lacks obvious moveset potential, I'm sure if anyone can come up with a unique one it'd be Sakurai and Nintendo would probably want her in regardless since she's so popular with casual fans and gamers alike.

Elma:
The Elma vs Rex debate has been a very polarizing one and I've gone back and forth on it myself, I stand by the fact that Elma is the more likely candidate due to timing, as well as how clearly and easily she would translate to smash while being a unique fighter. Another benefit to Elma is that she represents a different part of the Xenoblade series that is likely to be revisited if the games ending is anything to go by and Monolith themselves they want a switch port as well, as such Elma probably has a future with the series which I think helps her case.

Takamaru:
A character that has been considered for Smash multiple times over and has yet to make it in due to his lack of appearances in the west, however his game released in the west in 2014 and being an assist trophy and mii fighter costume has allowed him to gain further exposure, now certainly feels like a good time for his inclusion, not only that but he would likely be a very unique character as no other fighter uses a fighting style like him.

Chorus Kids:
A Rhythm Heaven character was seemingly planned for Smash 4 and didn't make it for one reason or another (Priority for other characters? Technical issues?) regardless Rhythm Heaven is still a series that Nintendo is pushing, getting a release in 2016 after all which certainly helps them out, now seems like a good time to add them.

Wonder Red:
One of the more out there choices but I still think it's a definite possibility, for one, he has ample moveset potential which I think is his strongest argument, two, Sakurai is friends with the games director Hideki Kamiya I believe, while Bayonetta was added too, that was because of the ballot, not his own personal choice. The Wonderful 101, while not a commercially successful game was generally well liked and Platinum want to port the series over to the switch, and Nintendo have consistently been supporting Platinum with the Bayonetta series. I think it could happen tbh.

Rayman:
A character that just makes sense, Ubisoft and Nintendo have been very friendly as of late, Nintendo even allowing them to cross ****ing Mario over with their rabbids series and them publishing Rayman Legends in Japan. Rayman, as well as Globox and Barbara were included as trophies in Smash 4, the only non-playable 3rd party series to get trophies. And Rayman is generally a fairly big, iconic and recognizable character, there's honestly not that many left that would work in smash.

Edit: In retrospect I just realized I only added 10 newcomers, tbh I'm expecting more but idk

A roster with 70 characters and no cuts is not something I can believe in.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Not much different from the last one I posted a while ago but I felt like sharing.

Reasonings:

Spoiler

Dixie Kong:
One of the most obvious choices, a relevant character who is also popular with ample amounts of moveset potential to boot, I'll be shocked if she isn't in

Impa:
One of the less likely choices but I feel Zelda is very much due a new character and with impa gaining notoriety thanks to Skyward Sword and especially Hyrule Warriors where she was actually the second character announced after Link I think she makes sense, especially since she's one of few reoccuring figures throughout the series.

Bandana Dee:
An obvious iclusion tbh, he's essentially become the fourth main kirby character, appearing as a playable character in RTDL and Rainbow Curse, as well as appearing in Triple Deluxe (where meta knight didn't appear at all), Planet Robobot, and Star Allies as well as a bunch of merchandise. It's clear Hal is pushing them and I wouldn't be surprised if he were to appear.

Decidueye:
Feels like the obvious pick for a Pokemon representative due to how easily they translate to a fighting game, as shown with Pokken where it was the sole newcomer to advertise the Switch port, the archer archetype could certainly lead to a unique fighter. Also while not a major factor it would complete the starter trio and while some may dismiss that as not mattering it could still be a factor. This spot could honestly go to any Gen 7 Poke but I feel Decidueye lends himself easiest to smash, pokes like Lycanroc and Mimikyu may have popularity advantage but the roster was decided before the game even came out and they have their own problems too with Lycanroc being bipedal and Mimikyu's body type not lending itself as easily to fighting.

Isabelle:
Isabelle's become a mainstay to Nintendo as a whole in recent years, Isabelle was right there front and centre on the amiibo festival box, every promotional image of the AC amiibo had her front and centre and she was even playable in Mario Kart alongside Villager. While she lacks obvious moveset potential, I'm sure if anyone can come up with a unique one it'd be Sakurai and Nintendo would probably want her in regardless since she's so popular with casual fans and gamers alike.

Elma:
The Elma vs Rex debate has been a very polarizing one and I've gone back and forth on it myself, I stand by the fact that Elma is the more likely candidate due to timing, as well as how clearly and easily she would translate to smash while being a unique fighter. Another benefit to Elma is that she represents a different part of the Xenoblade series that is likely to be revisited if the games ending is anything to go by and Monolith themselves they want a switch port as well, as such Elma probably has a future with the series which I think helps her case.

Takamaru:
A character that has been considered for Smash multiple times over and has yet to make it in due to his lack of appearances in the west, however his game released in the west in 2014 and being an assist trophy and mii fighter costume has allowed him to gain further exposure, now certainly feels like a good time for his inclusion, not only that but he would likely be a very unique character as no other fighter uses a fighting style like him.

Chorus Kids:
A Rhythm Heaven character was seemingly planned for Smash 4 and didn't make it for one reason or another (Priority for other characters? Technical issues?) regardless Rhythm Heaven is still a series that Nintendo is pushing, getting a release in 2016 after all which certainly helps them out, now seems like a good time to add them.

Wonder Red:
One of the more out there choices but I still think it's a definite possibility, for one, he has ample moveset potential which I think is his strongest argument, two, Sakurai is friends with the games director Hideki Kamiya I believe, while Bayonetta was added too, that was because of the ballot, not his own personal choice. The Wonderful 101, while not a commercially successful game was generally well liked and Platinum want to port the series over to the switch, and Nintendo have consistently been supporting Platinum with the Bayonetta series. I think it could happen tbh.

Rayman:
A character that just makes sense, Ubisoft and Nintendo have been very friendly as of late, Nintendo even allowing them to cross ****ing Mario over with their rabbids series and them publishing Rayman Legends in Japan. Rayman, as well as Globox and Barbara were included as trophies in Smash 4, the only non-playable 3rd party series to get trophies. And Rayman is generally a fairly big, iconic and recognizable character, there's honestly not that many left that would work in smash.

Edit: In retrospect I just realized I only added 10 newcomers, tbh I'm expecting more but idk

This one looks really good. The only thing I ask is why Paper Mario over Waluigi or Captain Toad? The debate between those three is a long and hard one. Only thing I would change with this is scrap Paper Mario (no pun intended) and replace him with those two. Then I'd also add Spring Man and Bomberman to buff up the newcomer numbers.

 

[monadoboy]

Celica would make as much sense as a Robin clone as Ike would as a Marth clone. Their styles are completely different and there's no logical reason to make her a Robin clone. "They both use magic and a sword" isn't a viable reason considering both Mega Man and Samus use arm cannons, but aren't clones.

Considering Celica is a Marth clone in Warriors (HATE this so MUCH), and Lucina is a Marth clone when Chrom is compared to Ike, I'd say logic doesn't really matter when it comes to FE clones. Lucina's Falchion is Smash is laughably small compared to her render, like, half the size. By logic, Lucina should play like Ike. The Awakening Falchion is a two handed sword like Ragnell, and they even share Aether (It doesn't look the same in Awakening because of 3DS limitations). In Awakening, Lucina smashing walls and training dummies to bits is a common occurrence, yet she has a refined and graceful style in Smash.
Celica with Robin's specials and Marth's aerials could work as a last minute, Wolf-esqe clone without being as awkward as Lucina.
It would be another disgrace to poor Celica, though. I'd rather she didn't make it than being a lame clone again. She deserves better.

You people are nuts! Pokemon Trainer was one of the neater characters in Brawl, and if you take away the stamina/type gimmicks, I see no reason why he isn't a viable character again. There was nothing wrong with the idea, and frankly, Charizard by himself is far less interesting.

Huh, I actually agree. Switching Pokemon is super important playing casually, competitively and in-game. But Zelda/Sheik and Samus? Not so much. Rex as a semi-transformation character could work, switching only his Blades.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

Pyra's voice actor denied having done any voice work for Smash. She talks about it at the very end of the video below.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259891328

Which means three possible scenarios:

1. She's under NDA
2. She's unaware of the project and hasn't recorded it yet
3. Pyra isn't in Smash

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Pyra's voice actor denied having done any voice work for Smash. She talks about it at the very end of the video below.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259891328

Which means three possible scenarios:

1. She's under NDA
2. She's unaware of the project and hasn't recorded it yet
3. Pyra isn't in Smash

Exact same three situations that existed beforehand

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Pyra's voice actor denied having done any voice work for Smash. She talks about it at the very end of the video below.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259891328

Which means three possible scenarios:

1. She's under NDA
2. She's unaware of the project and hasn't recorded it yet
3. Pyra isn't in Smash

I'm pretty sure that Pyra's English VA would have stated she wasn't involved with Smash regardless of whether or not it's true. So it really doesn't matter.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

A roster with 70 characters and no cuts is not something I can believe in.

I'm under the belief this will be a new game built on top of smash 4, I also generally don't think there's anyone worth cutting, and smash 4 was just SO recent that the idea of cutting anyone feels wrong imo

This one looks really good. The only thing I ask is why Paper Mario over Waluigi or Captain Toad? The debate between those three is a long and hard one. Only thing I would change with this is scrap Paper Mario (no pun intended) and replace him with those two. Then I'd also add Spring Man and Bomberman to buff up the newcomer numbers.

Waluigi isn't really important outside of spinoffs, Paper Mario represents his own part of the Mario series that no one else does. And I'm still of the belief that Captain Toad's inability to jump hurts his ability to be playable significantly

Pyra's voice actor denied having done any voice work for Smash. She talks about it at the very end of the video below.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259891328

Which means three possible scenarios:

1. She's under NDA
2. She's unaware of the project and hasn't recorded it yet
3. Pyra isn't in Smash

tbh she sounds genuine to me, and she specifically picked out that question rather than just ignoring it. And if pyra's in they would've recorded the english dialogue by now I would've thought

 

[Cosmic77]

We're going to get at LEAST one new Fire Emblem rep that isn't a clone. No matter how supposedly over-reppedo the series is it's a reality people are going to have to face. Fire Emblem got as many reps as it did for a reason: it's as popular as it is relevant.

Honestly, Fire Emblem got a ton of reps through sheer luck, not by it's own popularity. Robin was initially the only newcomer planned, but then Sakurai thought about making Lucina a separate character instead of an alt for Marth. Then DLC came, and Roy just so happened to be a Melee veteran people really wanted to see return. Corrin was added because Sakurai was specifically looking for someone new, and Corrin is who the development team wanted to add.

The stigma that FE is guaranteed a new rep because Sakurai views it as this insanely popular IP just isn't true at all, and the general opinion towards adding more FE characters should explain why it's far from a lock-in. Since Fates was the last non-remake FE game, I can actually see Sakurai skipping out on a FE newcomer this time.

IMO, FE's best shot at getting a newcomer is a promotional DLC character from FE16.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Pyra's voice actor denied having done any voice work for Smash. She talks about it at the very end of the video below.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259891328

Which means three possible scenarios:

1. She's under NDA
2. She's unaware of the project and hasn't recorded it yet
3. Pyra isn't in Smash

Or another scenario, Sakurai just wants the JP VAs present for Pyra and Rex. Much like how Cloud doesn't have his English voice actor for whatever reason.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

I'm pretty sure that Pyra's English VA would have stated she wasn't involved with Smash regardless of whether or not it's true. So it really doesn't matter.

Of course. But it was how she said it that made me think that Pyra won't be in. I mean...she sounds and looks genuine about what she's saying.

Or maybe I totally read her wrong. She could be faking it.

 

[Chandeelure]

R.I.P. Random.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

R.I.P. Random.

They will be sorely missed


But yeah I ran out of room lol, I might just add a random button and 4 extra characters tbh cause I for some reason only added 11 characters

Of course. But it was how she said it that made me think that Pyra won't be in. I mean...she sounds and looks genuine about what she's saying.

Or maybe I totally read her wrong. She could be faking it.

She is an actress after all lol. But yeah I agree that she sounds genuine to me, and that was an answer to a question she wasn't asked, if she was actually involved she would've just avoided saying anything imo.

 

[APC99]

Layton is more well known at this point than Bayonetta ever was before she made it in Smash. And before you bring up that she was a ballot choice, who is to say Layton couldn't be one of the characters that ranked high enough to be one as well? I mean it's not as if we know much about the ballot results (though given that Geno was a character that Sakurai wanted, your point is kinda moot).

Bayonetta 2 was funded by Nintendo, had exclusive Nintendo-based content, and basically saved the series from fading into obscurity. She might as well be a Nintendo franchise at this point, since it looks like all future Bayonetta titles will likely have Mario money backing them.

As for Layton, while over 15 million copies on just DS and 3DS isn't anything to sneeze at, I think his time has passed. His last game was in 2013, right during Smash 3DS / Wii U's development, not counting Lady Layton, which would be during Smash Switch's development.

Like you said, we don't know about the ballot choices. All we know is that Bayonetta was, to Sakurai, the most realizable character. Maybe I underestimate Layton, but I don't think he'd be a ballot choice. It just doesn't seem like he's as popular as he was during the original Wii U / 3DS speculation, and isn't as "revolutionary" or "iconic" as other third-parties.

Most people already thought there were more than enough Fire Emblem characters before Corrin was added. Never write off the chance of a FE newcomer in the base game, though if that happens, some FE characters will be low priority since I doubt 7 FE characters will be prioritised. Sakurai already thought there were too many before Corrin was even added.

There is no feasible way for FE16's Lord / protagonist to be on base roster, in my humble opinion. The timeline just doesn't add up, unless it's a last-minute clone like Roy, which would only cause more backlash against FE characters. I think we'll be keeping the FE lineup from Smash 3DS / Wii U, or at least Marth / Ike / Robin / Corrin. Roy and Lucina probably, but I'll give fans of cutting FE characters because they don't like "losing slots" the benefit of the doubt.