Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

I don’t expect an overhaul for Link, but I do for Zelda.

Her kit in Smash is trash and has been for a loooong time. Her change in outfit, such as the fact that she isn’t wearing a dress, can allow for more free movement, like some kicks for example.

She could also use the Champion abilities rather than Din, Nayru, and Farore.

Frankly I just see this as the most opportune time to do it.

You're right when you say that this would be the most opportune time to change Zelda's moveset, but think of it this way. What do you think would cause more controversy? Leaving Zelda exactly how she is, or changing her to the point where she's plays nothing like how she did in Melee, Brawl, SSB4?

We've had Zelda's original moveset an awfully long time. Yeah, that moveset is garbage, but I don't necessarily think we need to completely redesign it with flashy new BotW-inspired specials to make her better. Maybe give her a few buffs, make her faster, and change one or two of her attacks, then leave the rest alone.

Plus, Zelda using Champion abilities still makes no sense. Link was the one who used them, not her.

 

[Antimatter042]

Stealing a game idea from ResetERA and Gamefaqs.

Pick one series currently in Smash and double the amount of characters that series has (that are all newcomers). For example, you can pick a series with 1 character such as F-Zero and add 1 newcomer, or you can create mountains of hypothetical salt by pick Mario or FE and add on 6 more newcomers to the series.

My primary choice is F-Zero.

Put in Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf's current moveset and... well, I'm sure you know the rest.

As a secondary option, I'd pick Mother/Earthbound, with Ninten and Flint as additional characters.

Since doubling Xenoblade is too easy (and I'm hoping for it to get tripled anyway), I'll do Pokemon. Adding 6 newcomers:

• Dusk Lycanroc
• Mimikyu
• Scizor
• Sceptile
• Garchomp
• Golurk

If there's going to be 12 newcomers, might as well cover every generation, plus Mimikyu and Garchomp as fan favourites (they happen to be some of my favourites too).

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This actually makes me really made. The Zelda series characters stink in Smash. I mean Captaindorf says it all.

Ganondorf's Wii U model (or more specifically his face) really looks bad and his goofy running animation bothers me.

- The timing is perfect. SoV entered development right in mid-2015, and was meant to release in late 2016 before it got delayed

The fact that her game was meant to be released in 2016 would pretty much make her situation somewhat comparable to Lucas in Brawl as his game was meant to be released in 2005. Given Sakurai's statement about how Robin would have been less likely had Awakening released 6 months later, this factor might very well make her more likely to be considered at the very least.

 

[Staarih]

Honestly, I think the Champion abilities would translate pretty well to "replace" the Goddess powers Zelda has in her moveset now, like really, the function could and would remain essentially the same (teleport upward => fly upward, blue crystal protection => red round protection etc) with just flashier animations - and buffs of course.

I'd totally take anything new for Zelda at this point and agree that this would be the perfect time for it. And while it's Link who uses the abilities in BotW, frankly he uses everything in it, so while his (possible) updated moveset could be around the actual tools and weapons, Zelda could use the magic.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Something I've seen brought up in a few character threads is an expectation that the character in question will be revealed in E3, and if he/she/it isn't then that might be a sign that the character isn't in. This was something we discussed on the Ridley thread yesterday as it'd be difficult to see them not taking the opportunity to reveal such an anticipated character on the biggest stage they'll have to market this game with, but of course it might also be relevant to other characters.

Do you guys think that there are certain characters who's chances might be hurt if they aren't revealed at E3?

 

[Cosmic77]

Something I've seen brought up in a few character threads is an expectation that the character in question will be revealed in E3, and if he/she/it isn't then that might be a sign that the character isn't in. This was something we discussed on the Ridley thread yesterday as it'd be difficult to see them not taking the opportunity to reveal such an anticipated character on the biggest stage they'll have to market this game with, but of course it might also be relevant to other characters.

Do you guys think that there are certain characters who's chances might be hurt if they aren't revealed at E3?

I'm sure you already know where I stand, but to reiterate what I said before, I think the really big hype-inducing characters (Ridley, K. Rool, third-parties, etc.) and AAA game characters (Captain Toad, Champion, Decidyeue) are all very likely to be revealed at E3. If not, I'd start lowering your expectations quite a bit. After all, this game supposedly comes out this year. That doesn't leave us with much time for big character reveals, and there won't be another audience quite as big as the one that will be watching the E3 presentation.

What causes me to think this way? Well, if the first and last newcomers to get revealed in Smash 4 are any indication...

 

[Danpal65]

Something I've seen brought up in a few character threads is an expectation that the character in question will be revealed in E3, and if he/she/it isn't then that might be a sign that the character isn't in. This was something we discussed on the Ridley thread yesterday as it'd be difficult to see them not taking the opportunity to reveal such an anticipated character on the biggest stage they'll have to market this game with, but of course it might also be relevant to other characters.

Do you guys think that there are certain characters who's chances might be hurt if they aren't revealed at E3?

I could possibly see someone like K. Rool being in a similar position as Ridley. They are both important Nintendo characters and they'd both big hype reveals at E3

 

[YoshiandToad]

Stealing a game idea from ResetERA and Gamefaqs.

Pick one series currently in Smash and double the amount of characters that series has (that are all newcomers). For example, you can pick a series with 1 character such as F-Zero and add 1 newcomer, or you can create mountains of hypothetical salt by pick Mario or FE and add on 6 more newcomers to the series.

My primary choice is F-Zero.

Put in Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf's current moveset and... well, I'm sure you know the rest.

As a secondary option, I'd pick Mother/Earthbound, with Ninten and Flint as additional characters.

Mario:
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Dr. Mario
6. Rosalina
7. Bowser Jr.

8. Captain Toad
9. Waluigi
10. Daisy
11. Pauline
12. Nabbit
13. E. Gadd
14. Paper Mario

And then we have for alts;
1. Ludwig
2. Lemmy
3. Roy
4. Iggy
5. Wendy
6. Morton Jr.
7. Larry

8. Toadette
9. Toadsworth
10. Toad
11. Shadow Mario
12. Mr. L(for Luigi)
13. Dry Bowser
14. Paper Luigi(for Paper Mario, hitboxes are same)

 

[Pazzo.]

Is K. Rool hype inducing? We're in an age where people are adults who were born in 2000.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Is K. Rool hype inducing? We're in an age where people are adults who were born in 2000.

The answer to that question depends on how well K. Rool did in the ballot.

 

[Pazzo.]

The answer to that question depends on how well K. Rool did in the ballot.

I'd hug a crocodile just to find that out.

 

[Koopaul]

Is K. Rool hype inducing? We're in an age where people are adults who were born in 2000.

Didn't stop him from putting in Duck Hunt. But they ended up being a secret character.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Doubling series huh?

Let's see...

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Dr. Mario
6. Rosalina
7. Bowser jr.
8. Waluigi
9. Daisy
10. Cptn Toad
11. Pauline
12. Paper Mario
13. Birdo
14. Geno (on loan from square)

 

[osby]

Didn't stop him from putting in Duck Hunt. But they ended up being a secret character.

I think they stands in a different position. Duck Hunt is a characterized game type (Nintendo Zapper games to be exact), on the other hand King K.Rool only has a value by himself, he doesn't represent any important hardware or games (more than Donkey Kong himself, I mean).

I think K.Rool has a chance but only if Sakurai has a spesific idea with him, even if it's because of his popularity. If he just wanted to ask DKC characters, Dixie and Cranky would be more logical, since they have a future.

 

[Staarih]

Do you guys think that there are certain characters who's chances might be hurt if they aren't revealed at E3?

Not sure if it hurts anything or not, but ever since 3rd parties were introduced in Brawl, we've had a reveal of one at E3 if Smash has been present (Snake for Brawl's trailer, Mega Man and Pac-Man on subsequent years for Smash 4). So if Smash Switch is to give us a new 3rd party character, E3 seems like a lock for it really - and it does make sense seeing as its an event for all gaming companies and platforms.

Other than that, I dunno... I guess it would be sort of weird if something as big as Ridley wasn't shown at E3 but in a random Direct or something, but it could happen.

 

[Opossum]

Stealing a game idea from ResetERA and Gamefaqs.

Pick one series currently in Smash and double the amount of characters that series has (that are all newcomers). For example, you can pick a series with 1 character such as F-Zero and add 1 newcomer, or you can create mountains of hypothetical salt by pick Mario or FE and add on 6 more newcomers to the series.

My primary choice is F-Zero.

Put in Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf's current moveset and... well, I'm sure you know the rest.

As a secondary option, I'd pick Mother/Earthbound, with Ninten and Flint as additional characters.

Chrom
Virion
Celica
Merric
Caeda
Silque

Because dammit if I'm going to singlehandedly give Fire Emblem the most amount of characters by far, I'm adding my favorites. So with this I'd have my seven favorite Fire Emblem characters in Smash, since Marth rounds out my top five.


For a non-Fire Emblem answer:
Dixie Kong
Funky Kong

 

[osby]

Stealing a game idea from ResetERA and Gamefaqs.

Pick one series currently in Smash and double the amount of characters that series has (that are all newcomers). For example, you can pick a series with 1 character such as F-Zero and add 1 newcomer, or you can create mountains of hypothetical salt by pick Mario or FE and add on 6 more newcomers to the series.

My primary choice is F-Zero.

Put in Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf's current moveset and... well, I'm sure you know the rest.

As a secondary option, I'd pick Mother/Earthbound, with Ninten and Flint as additional characters.

Donkey Kong: Dixie Kong and Cranky Kong
Star Fox: Wolf and Krystal
Xenoblade: Fiora
Kid Icarus: Hades, Viridi, Medusa
Legend of Zelda: Toon Zelda, Tetra, Toon Ganondorf, Ganon, Wolf Link (with Midna)

 

[YoshiandToad]

Chrom
Virion
Celica
Merric
Caeda
Silque

Because dammit if I'm going to singlehandedly give Fire Emblem the most amount of characters by far, I'm adding my favorites. So with this I'd have my seven favorite Fire Emblem characters in Smash, since Marth rounds out my top five.


For a non-Fire Emblem answer:
Dixie Kong
Funky Kong

A fellow Virion fan? There were more of us?!

But yeah I genuinely just want a FE archer at some point so I guess him or Takumi are fine with me.

 

[Geno Boost]

Bowser’s Castle needs to happen. It’s long overdue.

My favorite version is the one from Super Mario RPG.

And when they reach the top, they face Exor. Stage hazards come from Exor.

Maybe fighting Boomer from SMRPG before reaching the top too

 

[dezeray112]

Stealing a game idea from ResetERA and Gamefaqs.

Pick one series currently in Smash and double the amount of characters that series has (that are all newcomers). For example, you can pick a series with 1 character such as F-Zero and add 1 newcomer, or you can create mountains of hypothetical salt by pick Mario or FE and add on 6 more newcomers to the series.

My primary choice is F-Zero.

Put in Black Shadow, give him Ganondorf's current moveset and... well, I'm sure you know the rest.

As a secondary option, I'd pick Mother/Earthbound, with Ninten and Flint as additional characters.

Xenoblade: Shulk, Elma.
Fire Emblem: Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Robin, Corrin, Lyn, Celica, Alm, Chrom, Micaiah, Black Knight.
Punch Out: Little Mac, Mr. Sandman.
Sonic the Hedgehog: Sonic, Tails.
Street Fighter: Ryu, Chun-Li
Final Fantasy VII: Cloud Strife, Sephiroth

 

[BluePikmin11]

I posted my full thoughts on transformation characters and why I feel these types of characters could return for Smash Switch:

https://smashboards.com/threads/thoughts-on-transformation-mechanics.453408/#post-22044645

It was a fun write-up and I now feel firm about my decision to bank on these characters.

 

[osby]

I posted my full thoughts on transformation characters and why I feel these types of characters could return for Smash Switch:

https://smashboards.com/threads/thoughts-on-transformation-mechanics.453408/#post-22044645

It was a fun write-up and I now feel firm about my decision to bank on these characters.

It's an interesting read, but I disagree with one point: I think transformations SHOULD take a special. They are something other characters can't do and designed to give transforming characters an adventage (or in Samus' case, disadventage, a price for using her powerful Final Smash). If their effect on characters' moveset is so superficial that it can be put on a taunt, then why bother?

I know you don't press for it, I'm just ranting. I like transformations but I also like more complete movesets. I guess in the end, it depends on how unique you want characters to be. Smash For definitely slided towards practicality in that aspect.

 

[Pazzo.]

Re-adding Transforming Characters means getting rid of new content for Zelda, Sheik, ZSS, and Charizard.

Insist on concrete information, but Sakurai's never liked cutting content.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'd much rather take buffs for Zelda's moves as opposed to complete changes. Both me and the Zeldas I see get good use out of all her moves. I use Nayru's Love to stop approaches, Din's Fire as her neutral game and for easy gimps, Farore's Wind for great recovery distance, and Phantom Slash as a powerful surprise projectile.

Keep in mind changing her specials wouldn't necessarily make her a better character either.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

It's an interesting read, but I disagree with one point: I think transformations SHOULD take a special. They are something other characters can't do and designed to give transforming characters an adventage (or in Samus' case, disadventage, a price for using her powerful Final Smash). If their effect on characters' moveset is so superficial that it can be put on a taunt, then why bother?

I know you don't press for it, I'm just ranting. I like transformations but I also like more complete movesets. I guess in the end, it depends on how unique you want characters to be. Smash For definitely slided towards practicality in that aspect.

I personally hated this about Samus in Brawl. I perferred ZSS so I always started the battle as her. But if I got a smash ball not only was it a relatively useless final smash, I know HAD to play as a character I was definitely worse at (that is unless I wanted my opponent to use their final smash...). It was just terribly balanced.

I really don't want transformations back, but if they are I hope no one gets penialized for using their final smash.

 

[Arcadenik]

Wandering Heroes from StreetPass Mii Plaza Find Mii I & II could work as a transforming character.

Down+B just changes the shirt color (for different special moves) and species/fur color (purely aesthetic). They all have the same normal moves.

 

[Deathcarter]

I posted my full thoughts on transformation characters and why I feel these types of characters could return for Smash Switch:

https://smashboards.com/threads/thoughts-on-transformation-mechanics.453408/#post-22044645

It was a fun write-up and I now feel firm about my decision to bank on these characters.

The only potential characters where I see the idea of transformation being considered are Rex and Pyra, primarily due to:

-Xenoblade 2's blade system naturally transitioning to a Limit Break/Transformation combo gimmick.
-Rex and Pyra are essentially a 2 for 1 package deal by default.

I can confidently say that in under no circumstance that Sakurai would recombine /, /, // given that he himself stated that the previous transformation gimmicks were badly conceived of in the first place and is aware of the huge backlash that bringing it back would incur.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Since we are on the discussion of transformations where do we think the limit of transformations are? So Sakurai seems to be against full character transformations (although that could change) but is ok with stance changes as we've seen with Shulk. What about something in the middle such as a Moveset change? I've seen a lot of support for Elma and one aspect of that character is the ability to swap from sword fighting to long ranged fighting.

Does anyone think a transformation mechanic where the Moveset changes but not the character or characters stats (basically reverse Shulk) is possible?

 

[Accursed]

What about something in the middle such as a Moveset change?

I don't really understand why people want moveset swapping. It's just extra work for very little payoff. You guys hated custom moves, and this is basically the same thing except with an entire moveset and not just specials.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I can confidently say that in under no circumstance that Sakurai would recombine /, /, // given that he himself stated that the previous transformation gimmicks were badly conceived of in the first place and is aware of the huge backlash that bringing it back would incur.

The only one I'd want back is Pokemon Trainer. It actually fits the character perfectly, and with a bit of tweaking it could work well. Zelda/Sheik are so different (and Sheik a competitive darling) that keeping them apart makes sense now. Samus/Zero Suit was the worst implemented one by far, and I'm glad she's split now.

Since we are on the discussion of transformations where do we think the limit of transformations are? So Sakurai seems to be against full character transformations (although that could change) but is ok with stance changes as we've seen with Shulk. What about something in the middle such as a Moveset change? I've seen a lot of support for Elma and one aspect of that character is the ability to swap from sword fighting to long ranged fighting.

Does anyone think a transformation mechanic where the Moveset changes but not the character or characters stats (basically reverse Shulk) is possible?

I think that would be cool. People wouldn't feel like we're "missing out" on any content (because it's all the same character), and we could still have a unique mechanic.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't really understand why people want moveset swapping. It's just extra work for very little payoff. You guys hated custom moves, and this is basically the same thing except with an entire moveset and not just specials.

Never said I wanted it, but for a character that's all about swapping how they fight mid combat it makes sense. Although Elma is the only one that I can think of that kind of needs it. I think Rex and Pyra have enough going for them they don't need a swap gimmick as well. Are there any other characters it would be important for?

 

[osby]

Since we are on the discussion of transformations where do we think the limit of transformations are? So Sakurai seems to be against full character transformations (although that could change) but is ok with stance changes as we've seen with Shulk. What about something in the middle such as a Moveset change? I've seen a lot of support for Elma and one aspect of that character is the ability to swap from sword fighting to long ranged fighting.

Does anyone think a transformation mechanic where the Moveset changes but not the character or characters stats (basically reverse Shulk) is possible?

I think a moveset swap means we have two different characters at our hands. I think only way to balance it would be made all the specials like Palutena's (make them situational and slow). Which, needless to say, won't make a lot of people happy.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Hmm for Fire Emblem?

1. Marth
2. ROY IS MY BOY
3. Ike
4. Lucina (add a lance attack to her moves)
5. Robin
6. Corrin

Newcomers

1. Hector
2. Seliph
3. Micaiah
4. Severa (because I’m biased)
5. Lyn with the ability to use bows. If not...
6. Takuri or Azura

Bowser’s Castle needs to happen. It’s long overdue.

My favorite version is the one from Super Mario RPG.

And when they reach the top, they face Exor. Stage hazards come from Exor.

now THIS is quite a stage. But will Square actually help them with this?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

You're right when you say that this would be the most opportune time to change Zelda's moveset, but think of it this way. What do you think would cause more controversy? Leaving Zelda exactly how she is, or changing her to the point where she's plays nothing like how she did in Melee, Brawl, SSB4?

We've had Zelda's original moveset an awfully long time. Yeah, that moveset is garbage, but I don't necessarily think we need to completely redesign it with flashy new BotW-inspired specials to make her better. Maybe give her a few buffs, make her faster, and change one or two of her attacks, then leave the rest alone.

Plus, Zelda using Champion abilities still makes no sense. Link was the one who used them, not her.

Zelda also never used Din's fire, Nayru's love and Farore's wind, and that was done way before Zelda being a reincarnation of Hylia was established. Summoning the spirits of the champions when she's literally their leader makes way too much sense imo

 

[Bowserlick]

Mimikyu is the only character where a transformation makes sense (my opinion obviously).

1. Mimikyu starts off trying to mimic Pikachu, using ghost attacks acting like thunder specials. Yet, he is not as fast or strong as Pikachu and is lighter.

2. After 35 percent (this number is not set in stone) Mimikyu transforms into a busted state. Enraged, Mimikyu ditches its disguise and uses its otherworldly powers. While Mimikyu's movement would be the same, specials and many attacks would change into attacks with a high-power level.

This transformation makes sense because:

• the first form borrows from an already established moveset. Less required learning for the user compared to traditional transformation characters.

• the flavor of the pokemon's ability disguise lends itself to the transformation

• a spectral fairy trying to alter its voice, taunts and moves to copy a living creature is terrifying, funny and depressing

• there is a life lesson involved. "Copy someone and you will just be a lesser version. Be yourself, and be a power no one can fully copy."

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

We've had Zelda's original moveset an awfully long time. Yeah, that moveset is garbage, but I don't necessarily think we need to completely redesign it with flashy new BotW-inspired specials to make her better. Maybe give her a few buffs, make her faster, and change one or two of her attacks, then leave the rest alone.

To make Zelda feel more like a true glass cannon, her attacks would not only have to rival the strength of certain heavyweights, but they also need less start-up lag to compensate for Zelda's lightweight status; a jab that takes longer to execute than a grab is just not good for a lightweight, and there are a good number of fighters whose grab hitboxes activate as early as frame 6.

 

[Cosmic77]

Link also used Din's fire, Nayru's love and Farore's wind, and that was done way before Zelda being a reincarnation of Hylia was established. Summoning the spirits of the champions when she's literally their leader makes way too much sense imo

I still say it doesn't make sense. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that the Champions are tied down to BotW. Any of the Zeldas can use Din, Nayru, and Farore's powers without it seeming weird or forced. What's the next incarnation of Zelda going to do if Sakurai puts her in Smash over her BotW version? Summon Revali's Gale even though Revali has absolutely nothing to do with her game? Use Mipha's Grace when she never even met Urbosa?

The Champions being in a Zelda moveset might seem okay now, but they won't make a lick of sense in the future. They'd basically be doomed to be replaced, and their abilities are so specific to them that it'll be hard for Sakurai to mask them with something else. How the heck would he be able to work around Urbosa's Fury?

To make Zelda feel more like a true glass cannon, her attacks would not only have to rival the strength of certain heavyweights, but they also need less start-up lag to compensate for Zelda's lightweight status; a jab that takes longer to execute than a grab is just not good for a lightweight, and there are a good number of fighters whose grab hitboxes activate as early as frame 6.

These are the kind of changes I'd like to see. Instead of just throwing everything away and starting from scratch, Sakurai should look at fixing the existing problems. It's not going to be easy, but it's definitely plausible. I could see a handful of notable changes like the ones you mentioned being enough to bump our bottom tier Zelda up to a solid "C" or "D" tier character.

 

[Murlough]

I genuinely don't think Disguise needs to be used when adding Mimikyu. For starters, fighting with a busted head is gonna look hella wierd. Second, its just unnecessary.

Mimikyu can do just fine as another addition to the roster without some wierd gimmick attached to it.

 

[Bowserlick]

Zelda probably has to ditch her theme of KO ability in every move because her transformation mechanic is gone and she is not the holder of the Triforce of Power.

If she keeps her sweet-spot theme (which does reflect her wisdom; Use your knowledge of technique and be rewarded) than her sour-spots cannot be trash. With her poor movement options she cannot have moves that are useless half the time.

Make her sour-spots fairly good and her sweet-spots even better.

 

[Deathcarter]

Since we are on the discussion of transformations where do we think the limit of transformations are? So Sakurai seems to be against full character transformations (although that could change) but is ok with stance changes as we've seen with Shulk. What about something in the middle such as a Moveset change? I've seen a lot of support for Elma and one aspect of that character is the ability to swap from sword fighting to long ranged fighting.

Does anyone think a transformation mechanic where the Moveset changes but not the character or characters stats (basically reverse Shulk) is possible?

That idea sounds like it would make Elma really imbalanced mechanically. Projectile characters generally don't have big disjointed hitboxes and sword characters usually don't have a way to menace opponents from long range. The characters that DO have both multiple projectiles and swords have either mediocre to bad mobility and recovery () or mediocre range and kill power () to compensate. It would make more sense balance wise to have Elma be mainly projectile focused.