Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

I dont think Sonic's moveset should be completely overhauled, just replacing one of the two spin dashes with something else would be fine with me.

And give him more expressive animations of course.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I dont think Sonic's moveset should be completely overhauled, just replacing one of the two spin dashes with something else would be fine with me.

And give him more expressive animations of course.

And if Side B is the one that stays, tweak it to be less toxic.

This is too much of a "win neutral for free" button to be left unchecked.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This one goes out to Evil Trapezium wherever the hell he is.

Recently I’ve been in the mood to try old games that have a cult following that I may have missed. Mostly on the GameCube, Xbox, and PS2 since that generation has really been a gold mine for me.

Well, I finally played TimeSplitters and I can say… holy **** these games are good. Like no seriously I’ve been missing out, they’re dumb, goofy, raunchy comedy is one thing but the gameplay is impeccable, arcade fun. For context I had never even heard of TimeSplitters before Trapezium but as soon as I picked up the first game I literally said “oh wait, this is Goldeneye, oh WAIT this is a RARE game!” I looked it up and I’ll be damned Free Radical was formed by ex-rare devs, specific the ones who worked on Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. I’m officially a fan now which makes me more excited for what TimeSplitters has in store for the future… or that’s what I would be saying if EMBRACER DIDNT ****ING SUCK!

Seriously, Embracer/Plaion went through all the trouble of getting the original Free Radical gang back together and then shut them down before they could even get TS4 into the full-scale development phase. Those guys actually suck, the literal Warner Bros. of the Video Game industry, well I guess besides Warner Bros. Games themselves.

Yeah, for old times’ sake though. Sergeant Cortez for Smash!

 

[SharkLord]

This one goes out to Evil Trapezium wherever the hell he is.

Recently I’ve been in the mood to try old games that have a cult following that I may have missed. Mostly on the GameCube, Xbox, and PS2 since that generation has really been a gold mine for me.

Well, I finally played TimeSplitters and I can say… holy **** these games are good. Like no seriously I’ve been missing out, they’re dumb, goofy, raunchy comedy is one thing but the gameplay is impeccable, arcade fun. For context I had never even heard of TimeSplitters before Trapezium but as soon as I picked up the first game I literally said “oh wait, this is Goldeneye, oh WAIT this is a RARE game!” I looked it up and I’ll be damned Free Radical was formed by ex-rare devs, specific the ones who worked on Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. I’m officially a fan now which makes me more excited for what TimeSplitters has in store for the future… or that’s what I would be saying if EMBRACER DIDNT ****ING SUCK!

Seriously, Embracer/Plaion went through all the trouble of getting the original Free Radical gang back together and then shut them down before they could even get TS4 into the full-scale development phase. Those guys actually suck, the literal Warner Bros. of the Video Game industry, well I guess besides Warner Bros. Games themselves.

Yeah, for old times’ sake though. Sergeant Cortez for Smash!

I'd never heard of Embracer until recently, when they suddenly bought out a ton of studios. From what I'm hearing now it seems they just kinda suck

 

[ninjahmos]

If Sonic's moveset doesn't get an overhaul, then at least make his side and down specials different from each other and make him more expressive.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'd never heard of Embracer until recently, when they suddenly bought out a ton of studios. From what I'm hearing now it seems they just kinda suck

As far as I understand going off of old Reddit threads and stuff, they were basically buying a ton of stuff for dirt cheap, planning to inflate their value and sell off to a buyer for billions and then basically watching as the buyer falls apart, but the buyer backed out so they got stuck holding the bag and the culling began with a ton of studio closures, layoffs, and game cancellations.

They own crazy amounts of stuff like THQ Nordic, Deep Silver, Gearbox, apparently Dark Horse Comics as a whole, and they own franchises like the entirety of Hellboy, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Timesplitters, Alone in the Dark, Metro, Saints Row, I think they even own Lord of the Rings since one of their divisions owns Middle-earth Enterprises. Like not just video games, I think they legit own THE ENTIRETY of the Lord of the Rings.

And this list of stuff is only part of what all they have and basically don't do anything with.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If Sonic's moveset doesn't get an overhaul, then at least make his side and down specials different from each other and make him more expressive.

But they are different from each other. That's the point behind its design. They function differently while looking near identical so he can confuse the other players, since they don't know which move it is.

(Did you mean they're too similar regardless and dislike that? Albeit, the wording suggests they're identical, but I doubt that's what you actually meant, heh).

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sonic_(SSBU) Quoted from here.

Spin Dash - Curls up into a ball, performs a short jump, and then starts rolling toward the opponent quickly. Holding the special button charges it up and increases its speed. In addition to granting 5 frames of intangibility after the charge is released, it boasts impressive combo potential, thanks to its ability to be followed up with any aerial attack. However, if uncharged, it stops when it hits a shield, making it very unsafe if shielded. When it is charged, however, the move is very safe on shield. It also boasts horizontal recovery potential when it is jump-canceled immediately upon releasing the special button; this turns the dash into a "Spin Shot", a quick, long-ranged short hop that can be performed either on the ground or in the air. Sonic can only hold the charge for two seconds when his Spin Dash is fully charged, but as the move can be jump-canceled, he can still charge it on the ground, cancel the charge with a jump and release it in the air while still keeping its charge.

Spin Charge - A Spin Dash that hits multiple times and has more momentum. It also has slightly different aesthetics compared to Spin Dash, and requires button mashing in order to charge. However, it lacks a short jump at its beginning, cannot be canceled in any way, and it can only become a "Spin Shot" when used in the air. Its charge can only be held for three seconds after Spin Charge is fully charged.

That said, this isn't saying it's done well or shouldn't be changed. Just that they are quite different at the end of the day. The custom moves in 4 do a better job at separating them, though, won't lie. Either way, I've been wanting a change too, but I'm well aware of its design choice. Generally, if a move is changed, it's not simply for balance alone, but sometimes it's that it fits the character overall better. Sonic being a fast and confusing guy still makes a ton of sense. Ganondorf getting his Flame Choke to replace Gerudo Dragon is a good example of using a move that fits his overall character. Other than Dark Dive, his special moves overall fit him. He's a brutal man who exerts extreme power and more. Dark Dive not being remotely changed(especially after Dark Fists actually fits him overall better) is odd, but hopefully they find something as a better Up B. Teleporting sounds good, but that's also a specific move where he does damage when he bumps into you, suggesting it should have a good damaging effect at the end only. Akin to Shiek's Up B, but reversed.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

That's the point behind its design. They function differently while looking near identical so he can confuse the other players, since they don't know which move it is.

I really hope I don't need to explain why this kind of design isn't exactly good or fun in a fighting game where you need to know what the other guy is doing, and how no other character on the nearly 90-character roster has two separate special moves that are like this to my recollection lol

EDIT: I guess Min Min, but like when she does the forward special version she at least still walks towards/away from you instead of standing still, so I feel like my point still stands.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I really hope I don't need to explain why this kind of design isn't exactly good or fun in a fighting game where you need to know what the other guy is doing, and how no other character on the nearly 90-character roster has two separate special moves that are like this to my recollection lol

EDIT: I guess Min Min, but like when she does the forward special version she at least still walks towards/away from you instead of standing still, so I feel like my point still stands.

"That said, this isn't saying it's done well or shouldn't be changed. Just that they are quite different at the end of the day."

Please read the full post next time. I covered that. It was already in the original version(the revision I made was to add the source, since I was a bit tired).

I was never specifically saying whether it was balanced or not(though I find the various RNG to make Smash feel a lot more fun as a game, but your mileage may vary. I know I wrote something here earlier, but I don't feel it's worth saying that much on anyway. I got my core point across with the previous message).

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

As far as I understand going off of old Reddit threads and stuff, they were basically buying a ton of stuff for dirt cheap, planning to inflate their value and sell off to a buyer for billions and then basically watching as the buyer falls apart, but the buyer backed out so they got stuck holding the bag and the culling began with a ton of studio closures, layoffs, and game cancellations.

They own crazy amounts of stuff like THQ Nordic, Deep Silver, Gearbox, apparently Dark Horse Comics as a whole, and they own franchises like the entirety of Hellboy, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Timesplitters, Alone in the Dark, Metro, Saints Row, I think they even own Lord of the Rings since one of their divisions owns Middle-earth Enterprises. Like not just video games, I think they legit own THE ENTIRETY of the Lord of the Rings.

And this list of stuff is only part of what all they have and basically don't do anything with.

To go off of this, they’re also constantly looking for buyers for the stuff they DO own. Like Shiver getting sold to Nintendo, everything owned by Embracer is essentially for sale as long as the price is right. It’s my only hope for a few of my favorite franchises that are there. Notably, the entirety of Eidos and Crystal Dynamics and the Tomb Raider franchise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as I'm concerned, Spin Dash and Spin Charge have 2 major problems: The first is that these could easily be 1 move; Tap the button repeatedly to get Spin Charge, or hold it to get Spin Dash. Given Smash's current design trends leaning toward giving a single special move a ton of utility instead of making it multiple moves, this makes Sonic's moveset feel like it has a huge amount of redundancy that isn't in any other kit.

The second is that Spin Dash has been an extremely unhealthily designed move since SSB4. I'm...actually not sure why it's not a problem in Brawl, but if I had to guess I'd say it has something to do with combos not working in that game since Spin Dash's utility is largely being a highly threatening, but low commitment combo starter. The combination of highly threat and low commitment is the main problem here, as it allows Sonic to just Spin Dash in a corner to prevent approaches. If an opponent gets closer than they'd like, it's also an escape tool because it's also a blazing fast burst movment tool with i-frames at the start that is also the only move in the game that's plus on parry for some ungodly reason.

As for how to fix this second issue, I think the simplest way would be to add a short window where the move is uncancelable, perhaps just for how long those i-frames last. That way he would have to commit to more of the charge which makes stalling with it not super helpful if not straight up bad without just gutting the thing. In fact, that's such a simple change that I'd almost put money on that being exactly what they do in the next game.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m not a competitive gamer at all but I’ve always preferred Jigglypuff’s roll to Sonic’s specials. I just found Puff’s a lot easier to use. I always expect Sonic’s to function like Puff’s when I use them and it throws me off. It probably doesn’t help that I choose random most of the time so I never really get into the details of how any one character plays even though I play a lot when I get into it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

As for how to fix this second issue, I think the simplest way would be to add a short window where the move is uncancelable, perhaps just for how long those i-frames last. That way he would have to commit to more of the charge which makes stalling with it not super helpful if not straight up bad without just gutting the thing. In fact, that's such a simple change that I'd almost put money on that being exactly what they do in the next game.

A good idea in theory but the amount of i-frames is actually quite short at 6 frames, meaning the "uncancelable" window would not be long enough to be significant if Sonic uses this move from really far away... which is usually the case due to its anti-zoning ability and also because of Spin Shot.

The only reason these i-frames are so good at dodging everything is because Spin Dash moves really fast, including during those i-frames which is enough to make those 6 frames feel like 60.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I’m not a competitive gamer at all but I’ve always preferred Jigglypuff’s roll to Sonic’s specials. I just found Puff’s a lot easier to use. I always expect Sonic’s to function like Puff’s when I use them and it throws me off. It probably doesn’t help that I choose random most of the time so I never really get into the details of how any one character plays even though I play a lot when I get into it.

This is an interesting take to me since once the skill level starts to rise in this game players quickly find that Rollout is comically bad. Currently, the move has a nonzero chance of launching you straight into the blast zone at sonic speeds (I forget what causes this to happen but IIRC it is consistent even if it doesn't make sense), and hitting this move puts you into freefall which means if you hit anyone off stage with it you straight up die.

My question is what about the move feels better to you? My guess is the satisfying smack you get when you slam into an opponent which Spin Dash and Spin Charge lack because they cross-up.

A good idea in theory but the amount of i-frames is actually quite short at 6 frames, meaning the "uncancelable" window would not be long enough to be significant if Sonic uses this move from really far away... which is usually the case due to its anti-zoning ability and also because of Spin Shot.

The only reason these i-frames are so good at dodging everything is because Spin Dash moves really fast, including during those i-frames which is enough to make those 6 frames feel like 60.

If the speed of the move is what makes 6 i-frames impactful, I'd argue that being forced to spend 6 frames launching yourself toward your opponent before spending several more down airing or air dodging to cancel your approach would cause a significant decrease in the power of that strategy, especially since it currently looks like you can do this on frame 1.

Honestly though, I didn't know how long those i-frames lasted, and I'd also be up for making the uncancelable window longer if necessary. I just don't want it to be so long that you feel like you should be able to cancel it when you can't; A burst movement tool this fast not being able to combo at point blank seems reasonable, but go much further beyond that and the move will start to feel inconsistent and/or just generally bad.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

This is an interesting take to me since once the skill level starts to rise in this game players quickly find that Rollout is comically bad. Currently, the move has a nonzero chance of launching you straight into the blast zone at sonic speeds (I forget what causes this to happen but IIRC it is consistent even if it doesn't make sense), and hitting this move puts you into freefall which means if you hit anyone off stage with it you straight up die.

Really? I mean, I like the Spin Dash moves, but like Gengar84 , I have always preferred Jigglypuff’s Rollout move over the Spin Dash moves Sonic has.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If the speed of the move is what makes 6 i-frames impactful, I'd argue that being forced to spend 6 frames launching yourself toward your opponent before spending several more down airing or air dodging to cancel your approach would cause a significant decrease in the power of that strategy, especially since it currently looks like you can do this on frame 1.

Honestly though, I didn't know how long those i-frames lasted, and I'd also be up for making the uncancelable window longer if necessary. I just don't want it to be so long that you feel like you should be able to cancel it when you can't; A burst movement tool this fast not being able to combo at point blank seems reasonable, but go much further beyond that and the move will start to feel inconsistent and/or just generally bad.

The other problem is that adding that window of being unable to act might also completely kill off Spin Shot which, while an incredible movement tool that can catch foes off-guard, never felt like the move's biggest problem.

I don't know much about game design but... what about reducing if not removing the i-frames altogether? Keep all of the other strengths but now it's not able to really contest with... literally anything in the game as well as it could. Being plus on parry feels less bull**** if the move can't dodge everything the range of a third of a regular stage's length... I think.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Really? I mean, I like the Spin Dash moves, but like Gengar84 , I have always preferred Jigglypuff’s Rollout move over the Spin Dash moves Sonic has.

Rollout is also meant to work a bit differently. But that's cause its origin is a move that goes on for a while before ending. Sonic is kind of more meant to jump on enemies than slam into them, and while it's not perfect, the differences do reflect this somewhat. Another way to think about it is Sonic's concepts are more about precise hits(like a martial artist) than just raw power. His hit and run tactics somewhat emphasize this, though it's hardly the same thing. But they do have similarities enough that it makes a bit of sense design-wise.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Rollout is also meant to work a bit differently. But that's cause its origin is a move that goes on for a while before ending. Sonic is kind of more meant to jump on enemies than slam into them, and while it's not perfect, the differences do reflect this somewhat. Another way to think about it is Sonic's concepts are more about precise hits(like a martial artist) than just raw power. His hit and run tactics somewhat emphasize this, though it's hardly the same thing. But they do have similarities enough that it makes a bit of sense design-wise.

I know. Still, while I could be wrong, Jigglypuff’s Rollout always seemed faster than the Spin Dash, and packed more of a punch when hitting someone, though Rollout was a bit harder to control if I recall correctly. The speed and power of that move is why I liked it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I know. Still, while I could be wrong, Jigglypuff’s Rollout always seemed faster than the Spin Dash, and packed more of a punch when hitting someone, though Rollout was a bit harder to control if I recall correctly. The speed and power of that move is why I liked it.

That's probably cause Sonic is super fast while running, so his Spin Specials have less oomph to it to try and balance it out. In fact, he has some noticeable KO Power. Something that Jigglypuff doesn't lack. But Rollout does gain power each time it hits(doubling its power), so that might be the reason it has high impact. Jigglypuff does tend to have launch power as a design choice(being a glass cannon to a degree), so that could be part of why it works that way?

 

[Gengar84]

This is an interesting take to me since once the skill level starts to rise in this game players quickly find that Rollout is comically bad. Currently, the move has a nonzero chance of launching you straight into the blast zone at sonic speeds (I forget what causes this to happen but IIRC it is consistent even if it doesn't make sense), and hitting this move puts you into freefall which means if you hit anyone off stage with it you straight up die.

My question is what about the move feels better to you? My guess is the satisfying smack you get when you slam into an opponent which Spin Dash and Spin Charge lack because they cross-up.


If the speed of the move is what makes 6 i-frames impactful, I'd argue that being forced to spend 6 frames launching yourself toward your opponent before spending several more down airing or air dodging to cancel your approach would cause a significant decrease in the power of that strategy, especially since it currently looks like you can do this on frame 1.

Honestly though, I didn't know how long those i-frames lasted, and I'd also be up for making the uncancelable window longer if necessary. I just don't want it to be so long that you feel like you should be able to cancel it when you can't; A burst movement tool this fast not being able to combo at point blank seems reasonable, but go much further beyond that and the move will start to feel inconsistent and/or just generally bad.

Yeah, I think it’s partly because it’s easier to understand what it does and it’s really satisfying to slam into opponents and sent them flying. Sonic’s are more combo openers and I don’t practice enough with him to know how to do any of those combos.

For context, 99% of my time playing Smash these days is against a level 7 AI so some characters and attacks are probably much better against the AI than they would be against an actual person. I’m not big on competitive online gaming. I don’t play often enough to keep up with the skill level to compete online.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The other problem is that adding that window of being unable to act might also completely kill off Spin Shot which, while an incredible movement tool that can catch foes off-guard, never felt like the move's biggest problem.

I don't know much about game design but... what about reducing if not removing the i-frames altogether? Keep all of the other strengths but now it's not able to really contest with... literally anything in the game as well as it could. Being plus on parry feels less bull**** if the move can't dodge everything the range of a third of a regular stage's length... I think.

That's a good point, and while I was more thinking about attack and air dodges rather than removing the jump canceling, there's still some problems that could and probably will arise with this idea.

The removal of the i-frames is also a good idea in theory, in fact, when Verde Coeden Scalesworth mentioned that it had some my first thought was "...why?". Removing it could solve the problems you suggest. I also thought about making it not cross-up on shields so it can't be plus on parry, but I'm kinda "eh" on the idea of shields stopping burst movement tools like it and Fox Illusion so I didn't go with that suggestion.

I know. Still, while I could be wrong, Jigglypuff’s Rollout always seemed faster than the Spin Dash, and packed more of a punch when hitting someone, though Rollout was a bit harder to control if I recall correctly. The speed and power of that move is why I liked it.

It's not controllable, has more end lag, isn't cancelable into anything, sometimes it just kills you, hitting anything other than a player opens you up for a huge punish, and most things win against it because this is it's hitbox:

Spoiler

Left: On the ground. Right: In the air.

Meanwhile, Spin Dash:

Spoiler

 

[CosmicEternity44]

That's a good point, and while I was more thinking about attack and air dodges rather than removing the jump canceling, there's still some problems that could and probably will arise with this idea.

The removal of the i-frames is also a good idea in theory, in fact, when Verde Coeden Scalesworth mentioned that it had some my first thought was "...why?". Removing it could solve the problems you suggest. I also thought about making it not cross-up on shields so it can't be plus on parry, but I'm kinda "eh" on the idea of shields stopping burst movement tools like it and Fox Illusion so I didn't go with that suggestion.


It's not controllable, has more end lag, isn't cancelable into anything, sometimes it just kills you, hitting anything other than a player opens you up for a huge punish, and most things win against it because this is it's hitbox:

Spoiler

Left: On the ground. Right: In the air.
View attachment 402205View attachment 402206

Meanwhile, Spin Dash:

Spoiler

View attachment 402207

Yeah, I know. I still always liked the Rollout move better anyway. I guess it depends on how you use it, and how skilled the player is when using it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's a good point, and while I was more thinking about attack and air dodges rather than removing the jump canceling, there's still some problems that could and probably will arise with this idea.

Jump canceling would still need to be axed with your idea of adding the "uncancelable" window or else that window would be pointless.

After all, if you can cancel a move into a jump, that means you can cancel a move into aerials.

I also thought about making it not cross-up on shields so it can't be plus on parry, but I'm kinda "eh" on the idea of shields stopping burst movement tools like it and Fox Illusion so I didn't go with that suggestion.

It only crosses up when fully charged, iirc, so that ability already has a risk/reward component attached to it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, I know. I still always liked the Rollout move better anyway. I guess it depends on how you use it, and how skilled the player is when using it.

Oh yeah, that's totally valid. I was just explaining further why Rollout is bad in a competitive setting while Spin Dash is kinda broken.

For context, 99% of my time playing Smash these days is against a level 7 AI so some characters and attacks are probably much better against the AI than they would be against an actual person. I’m not big on competitive online gaming. I don’t play often enough to keep up with the skill level to compete online.

Most of my time is fighting lvl 9 CPUs 'cuz I don't have friends or online. lol

When I do play with family, it can get kinda unfun for them because they're not particularly good at fighting games. I'm kinda in an awkward skill level where I'm competent and so handily beat anyone who doesn't play very much, but not good enough to actually compete with others that play Smash as much as I play video games in general.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Oh yeah, that's totally valid. I was just explaining further why Rollout is bad in a competitive setting while Spin Dash is kinda broken.

I can see that. At least I am not a competitive player myself. Thanks for the explanation, though!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Fighter Review: #01 Mario
TLDR: Mario is a character with a bubbly personality, high athleticism, and a high tendency to be the beginner character of the game. In Smash, this is mostly true, but his athleticism could be pushed further to make his unique abilities stand out more, and the depiction of his personality is pretty off from how it is in his home series. He also lacks the ground pound which is kinda weird, especially since both Yoshi and Bowser have it instead. It’s a common complaint that his moveset feels outdated, but I only half agree, and there’s no perfect solution for this since the Super Mario series drops mechanics constantly in exchange for new ones.

Overall, he has a solid foundation, but there is some fairly obvious room for improvement in certain aspects, so I give his implementation in Smash a B.

Spoiler: The Source Material

I don’t need to explain Mario (or really any of Smash’s playable characters) to you guys, but since interpretations usually hold some subjectivity due to perspective, I think it’s still a good idea to describe how I perceive him so that we’re on the same page.

Mario is the protagonist, and main playable character of the Super Mario franchise. He is depicted as a bright and bubbly man with the athletic ability of an Olympic gymnast. His athletic prowess is generally the focus of his appearances, as his ability to jump is the main method of interaction for most of his games. This might seem obvious for a platformer series, but Super Mario in particular focuses in on what jumping can do for a game’s design with most games being designed more like obstacle courses and the powers that Mario gets from game to game enhancing his movement rather than just being an attack like, say, a Robot Master weapon in Mega Man.

Outside of the platformer series, Mario is generally the beginner character of the roster, having balanced stats that make him easy to learn the controls with. Since there have been so many spin offs over the years, it’s become a pretty large part of his identity as a playable character. He even plays this role in the main series when other playable characters are given different attributes.

One last thing to note are his iconic abilities. Most of these are jumps, such as the triple jump, long jump, sideways somersault, and backward somersault, but he also has a few attacks and items associated with him in the ground pound, hammer, and Fire Flower.

Keeping all that in mind, a successful adaptation of Mario should result in a character as fun and bouncy as his home series. Good care needs to be placed in his movement, as it should show off his athletic capabilities, and reflect the fact that simply running and jumping around as Mario is a large part of the fantasy here. He should also be a beginner friendly character that veers as close to being an allrounder as he can get. To sum it up in a sentence, I think his concept would be something along the lines of being “The Acrobatic Allrounder”

Spoiler: In Smash

Mario started out as an allrounder, but with characters with large disjointed hitboxes or high mobility getting more and more prevalent, he’s been angled more in a rush-down direction just to keep pace. He does however have many tools that help new players such as a reflector, and a projectile that can be used to zone or approach. Overall, he still fits that beginner friendly label, though there are oddities here and there with moves like F.L.U.D.D. and his forward aerial.

Currently, Mario is most known for his ability to chain up aerial attacks into his Super Jump Punch to deal a lot of damage, and even K.O. his opponents, and he can get very scary on stages with multiple platforms that allow him to refresh his jumps and make this combo even more deadly. His iconic individual moves are his forward aerial which is slow, but meteor smashes opponents, which makes it difficult, but satisfying to land. His Fireball famously launches at a 45-degree angle, and bounces along the ground, which can give it a lot of utility, and incentivizes using it in the air. He also has Cape, a move that reflects projectiles, turns fighters around, and can assist in his recovery by stalling his horizontal momentum.

Personality wise, he is depicted as a very serious character who puts his all into the fight, and at times can even seem kinda angry.

Spoiler: Thoughts

Right off the bat, I think Mario’s main problem is that his personality is wrong. It honestly feels like they’re emulating his appearance in Super Mario Strikers where everyone was changed to fit the game’s hypercompetitive tone. It kind of made sense in Super Smash Bros. Brawl where the game’s tone was ever so slightly more serious than it is in any of the other games, but in all subsequent entries it feels pretty out of place, especially with the extreme care they’re taking in depicting that charmingly bubbly nature of his nowadays. Fix this, and I guarantee you people will like the character more.

Other than that, I don’t think there’s all that many problems with his current move set except for that there isn’t really a focus on the character’s athleticism. He doesn’t have a single move that interacts with this aspect of the character other than Super Jump Punch, but Super Jump Punch is a very standard recovery move and his general mobility doesn’t stand out much either. Part of this issue exists because movement in fighting games has to be a bit more restricted, so it isn’t ludicrously hard to hit your opponents, but you don’t need to make a speed character to have mobility be the primary focus.

At the very least, he should have his triple jump, and the sideways somersault should be an animation reference when jumping backward out of a dash like his backward somersault is when jumping backward at a standstill. I’d also like to see his dash attack be changed to his roll from Super Mario Odyssey, which could be jump cancelable at the end to perform a long jump, which could act as a highly comital burst movement option that allows you to rocket toward opponents with an aerial or something as a mixup, or escape. You could take it further by introducing his dive as a special move or something, but giving him what would essentially be an air dash might be a bit much.

I also find it odd that ground pound is nowhere to be found here. At a glance, I’d say the best place for it would be as a down special that replaces F.L.U.D.D. When using the move, Mario would do a flip, and then come crashing down on his butt. Unlike other attacks of this ilk, I’d make this a combo starter rather than a hard to hit K.O. move. Once Mario hit’s the ground, the move becomes jump cancelable. This jump would shoot Mario up higher than his normal jump which would mean 2 things: 1, jump canceling this on someone’s shield keeps you in disadvantage but makes you harder to punish, and 2, the move can be used not only to combo opponents, but also to begin aerial interactions at a higher altitude without burning your double jump.

Lastly, one of the biggest complaints about Mario is that he feels outdated. The presence of Cape and F.L.U.D.D. being the prime offenders, but even in general the character feels very different from how characters are designed nowadays. For the most part, I don’t think this is a real issue. Mario’s design can be pushed farther, and F.L.U.D.D. does admittedly make less sense the further we get from 2002, but Cape is kind of an important part of his kit, and not a lot of replacement suggestions make a ton of sense, and all of the bells and whistles that new characters have would quickly put Mario in danger of being overcomplicated. This is a beginner character after all.

There’s also the issue that adding stuff like Cappy will also date him 13 more years down the road, so there’s not really any winning there unless you plan to change him from game to game. I honestly think that placing more attention into injecting personality into his animations will do a lot more to make the character feel more current than adding any abilities or powerups from the Switch era.

Overall, I think Mario is fairly well put together, but the presentation of him is very off, and his athleticism should be a bit more front and center when it comes to his toolkit and playstyle in order to make his unique qualities as a character shine a bit more. However, I wouldn’t go overboard on new mechanics, as this isn’t a character that benefits from complicated mechanics or a higher skill floor.

 

[Gengar84]

Fighter Review: #01 Mario
TLDR: Mario is a character with a bubbly personality, high athleticism, and a high tendency to be the beginner character of the game. In Smash, this is mostly true, but his athleticism could be pushed further to make his unique abilities stand out more, and the depiction of his personality is pretty off from how it is in his home series. He also lacks the ground pound which is kinda weird, especially since both Yoshi and Bowser have it instead. It’s a common complaint that his moveset feels outdated, but I only half agree, and there’s no perfect solution for this since the Super Mario series drops mechanics constantly in exchange for new ones.

Overall, he has a solid foundation, but there is some fairly obvious room for improvement in certain aspects, so I give his implementation in Smash a B.

Spoiler: The Source Material

I don’t need to explain Mario (or really any of Smash’s playable characters) to you guys, but since interpretations usually hold some subjectivity due to perspective, I think it’s still a good idea to describe how I perceive him so that we’re on the same page.

Mario is the protagonist, and main playable character of the Super Mario franchise. He is depicted as a bright and bubbly man with the athletic ability of an Olympic gymnast. His athletic prowess is generally the focus of his appearances, as his ability to jump is the main method of interaction for most of his games. This might seem obvious for a platformer series, but Super Mario in particular focuses in on what jumping can do for a game’s design with most games being designed more like obstacle courses and the powers that Mario gets from game to game enhancing his movement rather than just being an attack like, say, a Robot Master weapon in Mega Man.

Outside of the platformer series, Mario is generally the beginner character of the roster, having balanced stats that make him easy to learn the controls with. Since there have been so many spin offs over the years, it’s become a pretty large part of his identity as a playable character. He even plays this role in the main series when other playable characters are given different attributes.

One last thing to note are his iconic abilities. Most of these are jumps, such as the triple jump, long jump, sideways somersault, and backward somersault, but he also has a few attacks and items associated with him in the ground pound, hammer, and Fire Flower.

Keeping all that in mind, a successful adaptation of Mario should result in a character as fun and bouncy as his home series. Good care needs to be placed in his movement, as it should show off his athletic capabilities, and reflect the fact that simply running and jumping around as Mario is a large part of the fantasy here. He should also be a beginner friendly character that veers as close to being an allrounder as he can get. To sum it up in a sentence, I think his concept would be something along the lines of being “The Acrobatic Allrounder”

Spoiler: In Smash

Mario started out as an allrounder, but with characters with large disjointed hitboxes or high mobility getting more and more prevalent, he’s been angled more in a rush-down direction just to keep pace. He does however have many tools that help new players such as a reflector, and a projectile that can be used to zone or approach. Overall, he still fits that beginner friendly label, though there are oddities here and there with moves like F.L.U.D.D. and his forward aerial.

Currently, Mario is most known for his ability to chain up aerial attacks into his Super Jump Punch to deal a lot of damage, and even K.O. his opponents, and he can get very scary on stages with multiple platforms that allow him to refresh his jumps and make this combo even more deadly. His iconic individual moves are his forward aerial which is slow, but meteor smashes opponents, which makes it difficult, but satisfying to land. His Fireball famously launches at a 45-degree angle, and bounces along the ground, which can give it a lot of utility, and incentivizes using it in the air. He also has Cape, a move that reflects projectiles, turns fighters around, and can assist in his recovery by stalling his horizontal momentum.

Personality wise, he is depicted as a very serious character who puts his all into the fight, and at times can even seem kinda angry.

Spoiler: Thoughts

Right off the bat, I think Mario’s main problem is that his personality is wrong. It honestly feels like they’re emulating his appearance in Super Mario Strikers where everyone was changed to fit the game’s hypercompetitive tone. It kind of made sense in Super Smash Bros. Brawl where the game’s tone was ever so slightly more serious than it is in any of the other games, but in all subsequent entries it feels pretty out of place, especially with the extreme care they’re taking in depicting that charmingly bubbly nature of his nowadays. Fix this, and I guarantee you people will like the character more.

Other than that, I don’t think there’s all that many problems with his current move set except for that there isn’t really a focus on the character’s athleticism. He doesn’t have a single move that interacts with this aspect of the character other than Super Jump Punch, but Super Jump Punch is a very standard recovery move and his general mobility doesn’t stand out much either. Part of this issue exists because movement in fighting games has to be a bit more restricted, so it isn’t ludicrously hard to hit your opponents, but you don’t need to make a speed character to have mobility be the primary focus.

At the very least, he should have his triple jump, and the sideways somersault should be an animation reference when jumping backward out of a dash like his backward somersault is when jumping backward at a standstill. I’d also like to see his dash attack be changed to his roll from Super Mario Odyssey, which could be jump cancelable at the end to perform a long jump, which could act as a highly comital burst movement option that allows you to rocket toward opponents with an aerial or something as a mixup, or escape. You could take it further by introducing his dive as a special move or something, but giving him what would essentially be an air dash might be a bit much.

I also find it odd that ground pound is nowhere to be found here. At a glance, I’d say the best place for it would be as a down special that replaces F.L.U.D.D. When using the move, Mario would do a flip, and then come crashing down on his butt. Unlike other attacks of this ilk, I’d make this a combo starter rather than a hard to hit K.O. move. Once Mario hit’s the ground, the move becomes jump cancelable. This jump would shoot Mario up higher than his normal jump which would mean 2 things: 1, jump canceling this on someone’s shield keeps you in disadvantage but makes you harder to punish, and 2, the move can be used not only to combo opponents, but also to begin aerial interactions at a higher altitude without burning your double jump.

Lastly, one of the biggest complaints about Mario is that he feels outdated. The presence of Cape and F.L.U.D.D. being the prime offenders, but even in general the character feels very different from how characters are designed nowadays. For the most part, I don’t think this is a real issue. Mario’s design can be pushed farther, and F.L.U.D.D. does admittedly make less sense the further we get from 2002, but Cape is kind of an important part of his kit, and not a lot of replacement suggestions make a ton of sense, and all of the bells and whistles that new characters have would quickly put Mario in danger of being overcomplicated. This is a beginner character after all.

There’s also the issue that adding stuff like Cappy will also date him 13 more years down the road, so there’s not really any winning there unless you plan to change him from game to game. I honestly think that placing more attention into injecting personality into his animations will do a lot more to make the character feel more current than adding any abilities or powerups from the Switch era.

Overall, I think Mario is fairly well put together, but the presentation of him is very off, and his athleticism should be a bit more front and center when it comes to his toolkit and playstyle in order to make his unique qualities as a character shine a bit more. However, I wouldn’t go overboard on new mechanics, as this isn’t a character that benefits from complicated mechanics or a higher skill floor.

This is really well thought out and I pretty much agree. I always thought Mario should be able to crawl in addition to the ground pound since he can in Super Mario 64. Maybe incorporate some of his fun jumping mechanics from that game like the triple jump, long jump, and cartwheel jump. He was just so fun to control in that game.

On the subject of characters bringing in movement mechanics from their home games into Smash, I really hope that X or Zero can keep their wall sliding and scaling mechanic from the X series. If we get X, I’m hoping he can run around while charging his buster. That’s one thing I found kind of disappointing about the current Smash Mega Man.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is really well thought out and I pretty much agree. I always thought Mario should be able to crawl in addition to the ground pound since he can in Super Mario 64.

Yeah he's also able to crawl in the Super Mario Galaxy duology. There's no reason why he can't in Smash. It's probably one of the least important things to give a character, but also...why not?

 

[ninjahmos]

I know it'll probably never happen, but I still think it'd be pretty cool if they changed Sonic's side special to Light Speed Dash from Sonic Adventure.

As for Mario, his moveset could definitely use some tweaking to make him more all-round.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I know it'll probably never happen, but I still think it'd be pretty cool if they changed Sonic's side special to Light Speed Dash from Sonic Adventure.

They could also try to pick something from Frontiers. That game gave him like, a million new options.

As for Mario, his moveset could definitely use some tweaking to make him more all-round.

I think it highly depends on the next game's direction.

If they make the next game a bit faster once like the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, keeping him the exact same is enough that his rushdown playstyle is less flagrant since more people would move better than they did before.

If they make the next game slower (unlikely but you never know), his mobility would need to be seriously tanked to be a relative all-rounder, which itself ruins Mario's characterization since moving around is kind of one of the things he's famous for.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think it highly depends on the next game's direction.

If they make the next game a bit faster once like the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, keeping him the exact same is enough that his rushdown playstyle is less flagrant since more people would move better than they did before.

If they make the next game slower (unlikely but you never know), his mobility would need to be seriously tanked to be a relative all-rounder, which itself ruins Mario's characterization since moving around is kind of one of the things he's famous for.

Also with his range being stubby in comparison to the billion swordies, they would probably have to give him disjoints of his own like they did for Wolf. I wouldn't be apposed to giving him hammer attacks for this purpose, but doing so would be difficult without removing something else iconic to him like his neutral or forward air.

 

[ninjahmos]

They could also try to pick something from Frontiers. That game gave him like, a million new options.


I think it highly depends on the next game's direction.

If they make the next game a bit faster once like the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, keeping him the exact same is enough that his rushdown playstyle is less flagrant since more people would move better than they did before.

If they make the next game slower (unlikely but you never know), his mobility would need to be seriously tanked to be a relative all-rounder, which itself ruins Mario's characterization since moving around is kind of one of the things he's famous for.

I'm hoping they at least make both Mario and Sonic more expressive.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm hoping they at least make both Mario and Sonic more expressive.

I feel Mario's pretty expressive. The problem is he doesn't have the right expressions.

 

[ninjahmos]

I feel Mario's pretty expressive. The problem is he doesn't have the right expressions.

True. He should smile more to make him more accurate to his usual characterization.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm hoping they at least make both Mario and Sonic more expressive.

Sega: "No."

 

[Will]

I agree with Mario’s attitude in Smash being disproportionate to the Mario games, I just wanted to post this gif of him being unhappy about being boiled by an extraterrestrial toddler.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

View attachment 402225

I agree with Mario’s attitude in Smash being disproportionate to the Mario games, I just wanted to post this gif of him being unhappy about being boiled by an extraterrestrial toddler.

It looks like Kirby is excited to eat what's for dinner, which is Italian Plumber Stew.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sega: "No."

I know you only meant that for Sonic but it gave me the thought of Sega somehow having veto over Mario's emotional range and that made me laugh.

 

[Will]

I know you only meant that for Sonic but it gave me the thought of Sega somehow having veto over Mario's emotional range and that made me laugh.

They used to, when they partnered for the Olympic Games Remember what they took from us

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I know you only meant that for Sonic but it gave me the thought of Sega somehow having veto over Mario's emotional range and that made me laugh.

SEGA DOES WHAT NINTENDON'T, ************