Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[justaway12]

It's in the manual.

Do you see any movies in SMB.1, unless you count
"Thank you mario.
But your princess is in another castle."

and

"Thank you Mario
We now present you with a new quest
Press B to accept"

As a cutscene...

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Diddy Kong: That depends.

Okay, quickly moving on.

VS.

Current Match-Up:
THE SPACE FALCON Vs. THE ICE DUO

Falco Vs. Ice Climbers

Losers Round 1, Match 8.

 

[justaway12]

...Falco has a ship!

Raizen, just a suggestion, but I think you should keep some characters in there own weight class o_O

Unless, they aren't anymore characters

 

[Diddy Kong]

oh god everybody is assuming and flaming, it's turning into the TDB! quick everybody duck and cover! loljk
What does it mean by invincibility?
In paper mario, he was invincible to Mario's attacks.
Psionics was never mentioned.

just something to munch on.

Most likely, it'd work. But try explaining that to the Bowser supporters. But yeah, I think it'd work, as psychic attacks generally go from mind to mind.

 

[justaway12]

Ummm, prove it >_>

Besides, I what move is that anyway? I doubt it's as fast as crusher, since that takes a split second...

 

[Diddy Kong]

All the better for Mewtwo to use Me First before that move. ^^

I'll do my best to prove it now...

Okay, so Bowser was invincible from Mario's attacks cause of the Star Rod. Mario attacks mostly using his jumps and hammer in Paper Mario right? All physical attacks.

Now being a psychic means that one is exeptional gifted in metal abilities. So most likely, a psychic would attack with it's mind. The mind as we know, works through the brain which is a vital organ inside one's body.

Psychic, the move has as a description: "The foe is hit by a strong telekinetic force. It may also reduce the foe's Sp. Def stat. " The Japanese name for this attack is サイコキネシス Psychokinesis.

So yeah there you have it... Most likely, Bowser's invincibility doesn't work against mental attacks.

As for the current match up:

This has to be the most unfair match so far. Falco wins, cause the Ice Climbers can't do anything. They may hide, but Falco has bombs.

 

[Samochan]

Imo, mewtwo not being able to use tm's would be ****ing unfair, because there are many, many things here allowed that aren't possible canonically. For example, bowser allowed star rod even when he lost it in the end of the game and it's not even his own weaponry for cripes sake. Paper Mario is as much of a spin-off as Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is. Metaknight got Halberd even when it was destroyed and you guys were okay with that too. Are you guys purposefully limiting just Mewtwo, cause he could beat bowser then? <_< Using some canon rule here is such BS when everything else is basically ignored. Everyone else is basically on their max potential, cept Mewtwo apparently cause people don't see how it would be canonically possible for mewtwo to wander outside Cerulean cave once in a while and pick up few tm's for himself. >_>

No they can't.

Pokemon NEVER CARRY TMs in the wild.

Some pokemon can carry tm's when traded over from rby to gsc, such as psych up for abra and kadabra. So nyah.

Pokemon also pick up tm's. So canoncially POKEMON CAN GET TM'S IN THE WILD, WHOOHOO!

Not forgetting Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, which is a depiction about how pokemon world works without humans.

 

[justaway12]

@Diddy:No, I'm pretty sure a psychic pokemon means you learn mainly psychic moves, I think, we have no proof that he attacks with his mind.

I think the word you meant to highlight was force, it obviously does phyisical damage, it probably pushes them back.

And again, crusher come out in a second.

@Samo: What are the chances of Mewtwo actually walking out of the cave? He would try to hide himself, I would think it's highly unlikely for him to go out.

Pokemon Mysterey dungeon was a spin-off, never in Pokemon was pokemon living in a community all by themselves actually canon, it detracts from the main seris and doesn't make sense.

 

[UncleSam]

No, I'm pretty sure a psychic pokemon means you learn mainly psychic moves, I think, we have no proof that he attacks with his mind.

I think the word you meant to highlight was force, it obviously does phyisical damage, it probably pushes them back.

And again, crusher come out in a second.

psionics or psychokinesis

The term psychokinesis (from the Greek ψυχή, "psyche", meaning mind, soul, heart, or breath; and κίνησις, "kinesis", meaning motion; literally "movement from the mind"),also known as telekinesis (Greek τῆλε + κίνησις, literally "distant-movement")

your proof.
EDIT: why would mewtwo want to hide again? He thinks of himself as the ultimate being, except he has a conscience.

 

[Salem]

@Diddy:No, I'm pretty sure a psychic pokemon means you learn mainly psychic moves, I think, we have no proof that he attacks with his mind.

I think the word you meant to highlight was force, it obviously does phyisical damage, it probably pushes them back.

And again, crusher come out in a second.

@Samo: What are the chances of Mewtwo actually walking out of the cave? He would try to hide himself, I would think it's highly unlikely for him to go out.

Pokemon Mysterey dungeon was a spin-off, never in Pokemon was pokemon living in a community all by themselves actually canon, it detracts from the main seris and doesn't make sense.

Somebody has not played PMD.

A human was sent to the pokemon world by touching the tail of a ninetails. >_>
It could be possible they are connected in some way, also... did nintendo say it's non canon?

 

[Technologikall]

Samochan is right in that Bowser shouldn't have Starrod though. if It's not is weapon and he lost it.

 

[Samochan]

@Samo: What are the chances of Mewtwo actually walking out of the cave? He would try to hide himself, I would think it's highly unlikely for him to go out.

Pokemon Mysterey dungeon was a spin-off, never in Pokemon was pokemon living in a community all by themselves actually canon, it detracts from the main seris and doesn't make sense.

I can imagine a pokemon would need some fresh air in 2-3 years. And food lol.

And basically, while the mains series revolves around humans and trainers... the mystery dungeon is entirely from pokemon's point of view and their OWN societies they've built without humans. Humans don't know much about these, the main character (human turned pokemon) is in awe about it. But some humans do, such as Grovyle's partner human on PMD2. The pokemon world is the same, the perspective is only different.

Or are you implying there are multiple pokemon dimensions out there? =)

The pokemon world is very vast. Even in reallife modern society, there are uncharted places where humans haven't ventured into before. In pokemon games, new pokemon are discovered all the time too. Are you saying that just because the main series depicted it all from human's very limited point of view, pokemon point of view is now non-canon?

 

[Diddy Kong]

@Diddy:No, I'm pretty sure a psychic pokemon means you learn mainly psychic moves, I think, we have no proof that he attacks with his mind.

I think the word you meant to highlight was force, it obviously does phyisical damage, it probably pushes them back.

And again, crusher come out in a second.

@Samo: What are the chances of Mewtwo actually walking out of the cave? He would try to hide himself, I would think it's highly unlikely for him to go out.

Pokemon Mysterey dungeon was a spin-off, never in Pokemon was pokemon living in a community all by themselves actually canon, it detracts from the main seris and doesn't make sense.

"Mewtwo's mental powers are now yours to command" is what it says in Melee when you unlocked Mewtwo. First thing that came to my mind.

Mewtwo got in the cave, so he must came from somewhere else. Doesn't mean that he can't get out. He could you know... fly, as he did in Stadium and he'd be like: "brb gonna get sum TMs" and be back in his cave in a few hours.

Paper Mario is as much as a spin off as Mystery Dungeon is. Although it has better story and thing, and it's probably better received by fans it has no effect or even mentions in the "main" Mario games as Mario Bros., Galaxy and Mario 64.

Imo, mewtwo not being able to use tm's would be ****ing unfair, because there are many, many things here allowed that aren't possible canonically. For example, bowser allowed star rod even when he lost it in the end of the game and it's not even his own weaponry for cripes sake. Paper Mario is as much of a spin-off as Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is. Metaknight got Halberd even when it was destroyed and you guys were okay with that too. Are you guys purposefully limiting just Mewtwo, cause he could beat bowser then? <_< Using some canon rule here is such BS when everything else is basically ignored. Everyone else is basically on their max potential, cept Mewtwo apparently cause people don't see how it would be canonically possible for mewtwo to wander outside Cerulean cave once in a while and pick up few tm's for himself. >_>

Some pokemon can carry tm's when traded over from rby to gsc, such as psych up for abra and kadabra. So nyah.

Pokemon also pick up tm's. So canoncially POKEMON CAN GET TM'S IN THE WILD, WHOOHOO!

Not forgetting Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, which is a depiction about how pokemon world works without humans.

I think Mewtwo just won this. Thank you Samo.

 

[justaway12]

I can imagine a pokemon would need some fresh air in 2-3 years. And food lol.

And basically, while the mains series revolves around humans and trainers... the mystery dungeon is entirely from pokemon's point of view and their OWN societies they've built without humans. Humans don't know much about these, the main character (human turned pokemon) is in awe about it. But some humans do, such as Grovyle's partner human on PMD2. The pokemon world is the same, the perspective is only different.

Or are you implying there are multiple pokemon dimensions out there? =)

I still doubt he seems like the scavening for TMs type.

If the world is the same then I doubt humans won't find it, when all the other pokemon acussed (sp?) the main character of being the person that ended the world, they walked a LONG way, I have trouble beliving they didn't step on human territory, not to mention the fact that the world was in ruins, wouldn't that be the same in human society?

Oh and when they talked to ninetails, I she said you were in a different world, IIRC.

Not to mention, he was an enemy, right?

@Diddy: That was most probably an effect, not to mention the fact players could fly in the games, I would think he would be spotted >_>

That "mental powers" thing probably meant he was psychic...

And hardly ANY game mentions other Mario games, unless they are sequels or cameos, the fact that Mario RPG games are famous, sell a lot and DON'T detract from the mario theme, I would count that as Canon, or else he would hardly have ANY games >___>

Even though they ARE canon.

 

[UncleSam]

And Mewtwo is smart enough to think and analyze his situations.
not like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRpvBYMemjA

 

[Samochan]

I still doubt he seems like the scavening for TMs type.

Why wouldn't he? Mewtwo wants to defeat his foes, wouldn't tm's help him on that task then? Also, it's certainly plausible.

If the world is the same then I doubt humans won't find it, when all the other pokemon acussed (sp?) the main character of being the person that ended the world, they walked a LONG way, I have trouble beliving they didn't step on human territory, not to mention the fact that the world was in ruins, wouldn't that be the same in human society?

Oh and when they talked to ninetails, I she said you were in a different world, IIRC.

The pokemon world =/= Human world, however they are interlapped.

"The player wakes up one day in the Pokémon world, as a human turned into a Pokémon. "
"This world is suffering an imbalance in nature, with natural disasters occurring everywhere." (there is no timeline mentioned)
"The player learns of the legend of Ninetales: one day, a human angered a Ninetales and was cursed, however, his/her Gardevoir took the curse upon herself to save her master. However, the human selfishly deserts the cursed Gardevoir. Ninetales prophesises that the selfish human would be reborn as a Pokémon, and when that happens, the balance of nature in the world would collapse. " (proves human world and pokemon world are interlapped, even when referred as different worlds)

And hardly ANY game mentions other Mario games, unless they are sequels or cameos, the fact that Mario RPG games are famous, sell a lot and DON'T detract from the mario theme, I would count that as Canon, or else he would hardly have ANY games >___>

Even though they ARE canon.

Mario flipping from 3D to 2D on other games too? <_< That and many, many other things that differ from the main games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

And Mewtwo is smart enough to think and analyze his situations.
not like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRpvBYMemjA

^ The match would probably be as even as that yeah, with the same result. =)

Yes, the mental powers means he's a psychic but that's the whole point. Psychic = mind to mind business. The move in question is even called Psychic. <_<

Psychic >>> Star Rod

With or without TMs, Mewtwo has an answer to everything Bowser has got.

 

[justaway12]

Why wouldn't he? Mewtwo wants to defeat his foes, wouldn't tm's help him on that task then? Also, it's certainly plausible.

I doubt he would waste his time looking for moves that aren't that great in the Pokemon world. Or are they?

The pokemon world =/= Human world, however they are interlapped.

"The player wakes up one day in the Pokémon world, as a human turned into a Pokémon. "
"This world is suffering an imbalance in nature, with natural disasters occurring everywhere." (there is no timeline mentioned)
"The player learns of the legend of Ninetales: one day, a human angered a Ninetales and was cursed, however, his/her Gardevoir took the curse upon herself to save her master. However, the human selfishly deserts the cursed Gardevoir. Ninetales prophesises that the selfish human would be reborn as a Pokémon, and when that happens, the balance of nature in the world would collapse. " (proves human world and pokemon world are interlapped, even when referred as different worlds)

but they are still different worlds, I don't recall it impossible for people to travel to different worlds in games.
I REALLY don't see where you are going with this..

Mario flipping from 3D to 2D on other games too? <_< That and many, many other things that differ from the main games.

Lets not forget that Mario RPG is one of the main Mario titles, a LOT of things happen in a lot of games >_>
It's still part of the storyline, besides, except Super Paper Mario his 2d-ness hardly had anything to do with anything >_>

SMB.1, 2, 3 was 2D
as well as others.

@Diddy: No he doesn't >____>
Phychic does not ALWAYS mean get inside your head and mess up your brains.

 

[REL38]

What is this junk?

Paper Mario not being canon?
Give me proof.

Psychic is not a blast to the mind.
It is a force created from the Pokemon's mind.

It never hurts the opponents mind.
Only Dream Eater hurts the mind.

Me First only works if Nowser attacks, but he's gonna use the Star Rod.

Mewtwo can't beat that.

Star Rod = Win

Mewtwo has nothing to counter invincibility.

Bowser doesn't go by "turns" like Mewtwo does.

Invincibility = Win

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo had Embargo to counter invincibility <_< Psychic may also be able to hit Bowser even though he's invincible (to physical attacks). We've no proof that it doesn't. There's more proof that there are ways for Mewtwo to hit Bowser from within than not.

Besides, in Paper Mario I've read there's a way to cancel out the Star Rod's effects. Which is kinda logical, cause otherwise Mario wouldn't win.

Why wouldn't Psychic attack Bowser's mind? I think it's logical the attack goes from mind to mind.

 

[justaway12]

It even desicribes it as a powerful FORCE, not a mental attack...

 

[REL38]

As Justaway said, (and to elaborate) it is a force created from the attackers mind.
It hits the foe as a force, such as wind.

Mario cancels the Star Rod using the Star Spirits.
That's the only way to get by the Star Rod's invincibility.

But Star Spirits are back-up so Mario can't use them here.

 

[justaway12]

Yeah, I've been meaning to raise that question, if Meta-knight can summon his crew, why can't mario do the same? The only way he can call them is by summoning them.

Same for Bowsers Fire Goombas.

 

[UncleSam]

Yeah, I've been meaning to raise that question, if Meta-knight can summon his crew, why can't mario do the same? The only way he can call them is by summoning them.

Same for Bowsers Fire Goombas.

what can mario summon?
and I srsly don't care if Bowser can summon his or not.

 

[Diddy Kong]

MetaKnight shouldn't get his Halbert in the first place. <_< Really, it makes no sence at all. I'm also still against Bowser getting the Star Rod for example and now Mario should get his team mates? <_< Shall we give Fox his whole squad and Ike and Marth their armies as well!?

 

[justaway12]

@Uncle: The 7 Star Spirit thingeys.

@Diddy: You don't get it, I'm sort of agreeing with you, I just don't see why Meta-knight got his group, when Marios in-game ability gave him the star spirits.
That was kinda my point, I don't see the point of his ship...
In all fairness, I still think he wins, but, whatever...

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Wait, Bowser loses the starrod canonically?

 

[justaway12]

So do a lot of people, lots of people lose their weapons...

That's why Mario can't have it, even though, IIRC, he had it last, we have them at their maximum potential.

 

[UncleSam]

@Uncle: The 7 Star Spirit thingeys.

those are main(ish) characters in PM64. I'm not sure if it would apply, if Mario was to use his star power, sure go ahead.

As for MK, There was an actual move in SSU that allowed Meta Knight to create sword/blade knights.

 

[justaway12]

Mario's stars were an actual move, he summoned it as an in-game ability.

 

[UncleSam]

If it's a move I don't see why people are complaining because moves are legit.
For M2 vs. Bowser we're just about invincibility and are trying to straighten it out.
anyway, falco ftw.
ARWING>anything that doesn't command a machine/is invincible.

 

[Samochan]

I ask again, why other characters are allowed things that wouldn't do canoncally speaking, but then for mewtwo that argument is used to disallow his usage of tm's (even though they're canonically entirely plausible), which in turn make it so he's not in max potential. Double standards anyone? <_<

And why, pray tell, Mewtwo shouldn't be able to use tm's as they are a feature in pokemon games, not some cheat or glitch thing and very much useable by him as well. Heck, we're already limiting him (and other pokes too) to 4 moves and 1 item only cause of game mechanics, when others have limitless amounts of moves and items to be used.

Why can't mewtwo have tm's? :/

 

[Diddy Kong]

What exactly happens after the Star Rod is taken from Bowser? Does it get sealed away or something?

Also, what characters lose their weapons? Only Samus right? The rest doesn't really mather I think.

 

[justaway12]

We are trying to keep it true their games, that means their powers and stuff, that means past and present, if, at any point Mewtwo was shown walking out and getting TMs, there wouldn't even be an argument.

 

[Samochan]

What exactly happens after the Star Rod is taken from Bowser? Does it get sealed away or something?

Also, what characters lose their weapons? Only Samus right? The rest doesn't really mather I think.

Link loses master sword, meta loses halberd, star rod (to my information) is placed where it originaly belonged...

Samus doesn't actually lose most of her armanent in the end of any game (some stuff, like phazon suit and beam and things), but loses those in the beginning lol.

We are trying to keep it true their games, that means their powers and stuff, that means past and present, if, at any point Mewtwo was shown walking out and getting TMs, there wouldn't even be an argument.

True to his game, Mewtwo is perfectly capable of utilizing many, many tm's. Any counterproof that mewtwo cannot learn tm's?

Aren't we basically already skipping for everyone else how or why person might get their items and all, if only they can get them ingame and use them? Samus for example gets whatever junk she gets, but fact is, SHE DOESN'T HAVE THEM ALL IN THE SAME GAME, thus canonically impossible. Same goes for everyone else, they get whatever they want from whatever game, even though canonically impossible feat.

Thus, Mewtwo should also be allowed to utilize TM's because as we well know, he's very much able.

 

[justaway12]

But he can't use them, that's the problem, he has never been shown to actually use them, it's not that he CAN'T learn it, it's that he has never been shown TM hunting, especially in different towns and lets not forget that they aren't the best of moves, you said Mewtwo would want to beat his opponents, but they aren't the best TMs, are they?

Isn't the burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim? Prove that he can learn TMs or that he can actually go out and get it or it's all just baseless claims, right?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Aren't we basically already skipping for everyone else how or why person might get their items and all, if only they can get them ingame and use them? Samus for example gets whatever junk she gets, but fact is, SHE DOESN'T HAVE THEM ALL IN THE SAME GAME, thus canonically impossible. Same goes for everyone else, they get whatever they want from whatever game, even though canonically impossible feat.

Thus, Mewtwo should also be allowed to utilize TM's because as we well know, he's very much able.

I'm up for allowing TMs, but Mewtwo was never shown to get them in any of the games he was in..

At the same time, I think you're making a very good point..

 

[Diddy Kong]

Link loses master sword, meta loses halberd, star rod (to my information) is placed where it originaly belonged...

Samus doesn't actually lose most of her armanent in the end of any game (some stuff, like phazon suit and beam and things), but loses those in the beginning lol.



True to his game, Mewtwo is perfectly capable of utilizing many, many tm's. Any counterproof that mewtwo cannot learn tm's?

Aren't we basically already skipping for everyone else how or why person might get their items and all, if only they can get them ingame and use them? Samus for example gets whatever junk she gets, but fact is, SHE DOESN'T HAVE THEM ALL IN THE SAME GAME, thus canonically impossible. Same goes for everyone else, they get whatever they want from whatever game, even though canonically impossible feat.

Thus, Mewtwo should also be allowed to utilize TM's because as we well know, he's very much able.

Couldn't agree more. This was basically what I was trying to say all the time.
Mewtwo gets TMs just like any other character get their ****.

 

[Samochan]

How many games portray mewtwo as the main char or how many times you control him? >_> There's really no proof he couldn't get any tm's either, though there's a lack of evidence in the main games that he could get some.

However... in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon you can recruit Mewtwo and you're able to get & use TM's. So there's more proof on pokemon capable of getting & using tm's without any trainer or human assistance.

And I repeat this:

Aren't we basically already skipping for everyone else how or why person might get their items and all, if only they can get them ingame and use them? Samus for example gets whatever junk she gets, but fact is, SHE DOESN'T HAVE THEM ALL IN THE SAME GAME, thus canonically impossible. Same goes for everyone else, they get whatever they want from whatever game, even though canonically impossible feat.

Thus, Mewtwo should also be allowed to utilize TM's because as we well know, he's very much able.

Now I'm tired and I shall go to bed. <.<

 

[justaway12]

How many games portray mewtwo as the main char or how many times you control him? >_> There's really no proof he couldn't get any tm's either, though there's a lack of evidence in the main games that he could get some.

There is no proof, so we can't assume, the same thing happenend in Peach vs. Zelda when Ray wanted Zelda to get a sword.

However... in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon you can recruit Mewtwo and you're able to get & use TM's. So there's more proof on pokemon capable of getting & using tm's without any trainer or human assistance.

I still have a hard time beliving Mystery Dungeon is canon, it doesn't matter if, why not just use Mario Kart and Mario Sports games =/

They are in the same world, there is no evidence it being uncanon, so why not?

Now I'm tired and I shall go to bed. <.<

Remeber what happend last time