Smash Balls = New Play Style, Second Tourney Ruling?

[fr0st2k]

The Smash Ball tournaments would boil down to Marth with His Final Smash-tournament. Anyone who wanted to stand a chance of winning would be forced into playing Marth.

This topic has already been debeating in another thread, which you should be quite aware of since you speak of how it's been debated already.

Please do not start new threads discussing something that's been discussed for a long time, in, say, a threat which has reached beyond 10 pages.

no, youre completely wrong, and totally missing the point i was making in this thread.

Perhaps Luigi is better than marth at obtaining the smash ball? Maybe marths throw will knock him straight up into the air, and allow the other player a better chance at getting the item.

Dumb example i know .. but think outside the box and maybe youll get it.

The idea is that the initial battle for the smash ball is a new type of gameplay. Preventing people from getting it, perhaps playing an avoidance battle until it comes down. Strategies emerge.

The fact is, the way the smash ball is deployed is DIFFERENT then randomly appearing capsules and dropping items. this is FACT.

This makes it a viable item for tourneys because of its onscreen properties. How it flies around once its hit, how it can be knocked out of peoples hands, and how it must be attacked multiple times for it to break.

 

[darkNES386]

One thing to keep in mind is that almost every video people are watching with items... is a free for all. Well... that's a whole different game to begin with. Especially when one player is purposely not fighting. So until you actually see competative videos of one on one situations... relax.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I like what you're saying here, but until people find these game-changing discoveries, the competitive scene will always have the same rules and regulations. That means that a lot of people will have to do a lot of work at home to try and find these things instead of simply practicing on certain stages without items all the time, and I don't see many people bothering to find these things because they don't want to fall behind on the competitive select stages no items scene.

That's the problem, though; it's all personal responsibility. If we, as the Smash Community, want our scene to improve, to get better, to advance, then we must be willing to MAKE ourselves improve. We must be willing to MAKE ourselves play differing playstyles on a consistant basis until we are absolutely positive that those playstyles are not viable, because the fact is that no matter what we learned from Melee, Brawl is different; until I see the coding pulled straight from the Brawl disc that says otherwise, we have to rule out all possibilities ourselves.

 

[fr0st2k]

I like what you're saying here, but until people find these game-changing discoveries, the competitive scene will always have the same rules and regulations. That means that a lot of people will have to do a lot of work at home to try and find these things instead of simply practicing on certain stages without items all the time, and I don't see many people bothering to find these things because they don't want to fall behind on the competitive select stages no items scene.

(see bold)

Thats because the competitive scene is so entranced by the "world" they created that the idea to change is scares the crap out of them.

If you were here long before brawl, youd remember how scared everyone was that this game WOULDNT be Melee2.0 Everyone was *****ing and complaining about each and every little thing that separated this game from Melee.

Even now, the old melee tourney goers are trying to move melee over to brawl. Why? i dont know...maybe cause they spent so much time in melee they are hoping that they can just move all that time invested over into brawl instantly, and by doing very little work.

Now, i invested a lot of time to melee myself. But im not the kind of person who dwells on the past and cant bring myself up to the present because of blind fanboyism. I am ready for brawl and i have accepted it is a NEW GAME.

Seriously, i wish the mods would delete EVERY topic that mentioned melee in comparison with brawl.

 

[Austin55]

...If people like to complain so much about fairness, then why don't they just seperate tournaments into tiers like fighting sports are seperated into weight divisions? It makes sense, so tournaments can be "moar fair and balanced!!!!111"

 

[Yuna]

You know, you people keep taking about Marth's FS as unavoidable... yet, how long have we been trying to avoid it for? A couple of weeks? The majority of the videos of matches we've seen don't even USE Final Smashes, much less items. The fact of the matter is that shield camping was seen to be just as broken as Final Smashes... until people experimented, found wavedashing, and forever changed the competitive scene.

What possible ways are there to avoid FS:es besides rolling, spotdodging, keeping away from their range and never getting comboed into them?! There are no magical secret hidden ATs to be found that'll instantly knock the Smash Ball out of Marth from afar without any risk to yourself that's really easy to do and hard for Marth to avoid.

If there was one, it'd be one hell of a bug. Common sense tells us that Marth's FS is broken because it's a one hit KO at 0% and because it can be comboed into.

The fact of the matter is, unless we force ourselves to play with items, Final Smashes, strange stages, and everything else the game has to offer, ESPECIALLY in the competitive style, for at least a year or so, we'll never know for sure the potential Final Smashes have for tournament viability. We'll never know what the counter to Marth's Final Smash is unless we actively look for it.

Yeah, we need to test everything out in a tournament before determining it's broken even though it might immediately apparent to everyone who's played Smash competitively (and who's also tested Brawl) that it's broken.

I mean, why ban stages at all? Let's have tournaments with all stages on random and none banned for a year or two before determining what can and cannot be on random.

I mean, there are probably workarounds against the brokenness of certain broken minigames on the Wario Ware stage, ways to not get comboed to death by the G&Ws with chairs in Flat Zone 2 and ways to never get killed when the new Brinstar stage suddenly turns upside down.

Heck, I bet character with Tether Recoveries only have ways to beat that darn Pit stage where you can break off the platforms, completely preventing all kinds of tethering.

Stop being so stubborn and experiment; you've already shown that the tournament scene can do it.

I've played the game. Have you? It's not debatable. Certain FS:es are too good while the majority either suck or are mediocre. At high level play, the tournament scene will devolve into people using pretty much only Marth as he's already really good without FS:es. With FS:es, he's pretty unbeatable. He can only win without his FS. With his Top Tier FS, he will destroy the majority of the cast.

Certain FS:es will never hit anyone good. Lucario's doesn't even hit most n00bs in 4-man Free For Alls (I've personally witnessed games live where self-professed n00bs easily dodged it time and again after only witnessing it once and therefore learning how it works).

All FS:es are also unblockable. If you get forced into grabbing the ledge and the opponent is holding an FS, you are dead if their FS can KO. All they have to do is camp the edge. You'll be forced to come up some time either to not get edgeguarded or to not lose on time if you're behind. When you do, no matter which way you choose, you'll either eat an edgeguard (if you ledgehop) or simply get FS:es if you choose any of the other options.

Why do people think that everything has to be allowed in tournaments for quite a while before it can be determined that they're broken? Competitive players with insight into competitive play testing them out in controlled settings aren't enough?

And how hard is it to get that an unblockable move which kills at 0% which can be comboed into is broken, especially when only a select few have such a thing whilst others have moves that will only hit players who screw up royally?!

 

[Gymclass_Hero]

Go ahead and host a tournament like that. Be prepared for plenty of complaints. That item still has luck involved, even in the chase for it.

 

[Yuna]

no, youre completely wrong, and totally missing the point i was making in this thread.

Perhaps Luigi is better than marth at obtaining the smash ball? Maybe marths throw will knock him straight up into the air, and allow the other player a better chance at getting the item.

Dumb example i know .. but think outside the box and maybe youll get it.

The idea is that the initial battle for the smash ball is a new type of gameplay. Preventing people from getting it, perhaps playing an avoidance battle until it comes down. Strategies emerge.

The fact is, the way the smash ball is deployed is DIFFERENT then randomly appearing capsules and dropping items. this is FACT.

This makes it a viable item for tourneys because of its onscreen properties. How it flies around once its hit, how it can be knocked out of peoples hands, and how it must be attacked multiple times for it to break.

How is it different? It spawns randomly. It's just that it doesn't drop to the ground. It then floats around randomly.

No smart Marth-player would throw their opponent into a Smash ball. Marth also has an easy time getting the Smash ball. He's fast, all his moves have high priorities, low lag and are fast, so he can both pressure and approach while hitting the Smash ball/Hit the Smash Ball while keeping opponents at bay. He can jump really high. His range is great.

...If people like to complain so much about fairness, then why don't they just seperate tournaments into tiers like fighting sports are seperated into weight divisions? It makes sense, so tournaments can be "moar fair and balanced!!!!111"

Ever heard of Low Tiers tournaments?

If you were here long before brawl, youd remember how scared everyone was that this game WOULDNT be Melee2.0 Everyone was *****ing and complaining about each and every little thing that separated this game from Melee.

Even now, the old melee tourney goers are trying to move melee over to brawl. Why? i dont know...maybe cause they spent so much time in melee they are hoping that they can just move all that time invested over into brawl instantly, and by doing very little work..

Name 10 good competitive players who are worth their salt who have ever complained over Brawl being bad simply because it's different from Melee and/or because it's not Melee 2.0.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What possible ways are there to avoid FS:es besides rolling, spotdodging, keeping away from their range and never getting comboed into them?! There are no magical secret hidden ATs to be found that'll instantly knock the Smash Ball out of Marth from afar without any risk to yourself that's really easy to do and hard for Marth to avoid.

If there was one, it'd be one hell of a bug. Common sense tells us that Marth's FS is broken because it's a one hit KO at 0% and because it can be comboed into.


Yeah, we need to test everything out in a tournament before determining it's broken even though it might immediately apparent to everyone who's played Smash competitively (and who's also tested Brawl) that it's broken.

I mean, why ban stages at all? Let's have tournaments with all stages on random and none banned for a year or two before determining what can and cannot be on random.

I mean, there are probably workarounds against the brokenness of certain broken minigames on the Wario Ware stage, ways to not get comboed to death by the G&Ws with chairs in Flat Zone 2 and ways to never get killed when the new Brinstar stage suddenly turns upside down.

Heck, I bet character with Tether Recoveries only have ways to beat that darn Pit stage where you can break off the platforms, completely preventing all kinds of tethering.


I've played the game. Have you? It's not debatable. Certain FS:es are too good while the majority either suck or are mediocre. At high level play, the tournament scene will devolve into people using pretty much only Marth as he's already really good without FS:es. With FS:es, he's pretty unbeatable. He can only win without his FS. With his Top Tier FS, he will destroy the majority of the cast.

Certain FS:es will never hit anyone good. Lucario's doesn't even hit most n00bs in 4-man Free For Alls (I've personally witnessed games live where self-professed n00bs easily dodged it time and again after only witnessing it once and therefore learning how it works).

All FS:es are also unblockable. If you get forced into grabbing the ledge and the opponent is holding an FS, you are dead if their FS can KO. All they have to do is camp the edge. You'll be forced to come up some time either to not get edgeguarded or to not lose on time if you're behind. When you do, no matter which way you choose, you'll either eat an edgeguard (if you ledgehop) or simply get FS:es if you choose any of the other options.

Why do people think that everything has to be allowed in tournaments for quite a while before it can be determined that they're broken? Competitive players with insight into competitive play testing them out in controlled settings aren't enough?

And how hard is it to get that an unblockable move which kills at 0% which can be comboed into is broken, especially when only a select few have such a thing whilst others have moves that will only hit players who screw up royally?!

And your thinking is exactly what I find detestable about the current situation: we, the obviously inferior, have to take your word for it that Marth's Final Smash is unavoidable. I don't care if people have played the Japanese Brawl; there are differences between the US and PAL versions of Melee. That's strike one for your argument.

Yes, we do need to test out EVERY POSSIBILITY for tournaments. Look at Bowser's so-called 'infinite jump'; that got past playtesting, did it not? There is a whole world of possibilities that we are guaranteeing that we will miss out on if we don't look for them. Your shortsighted 'well, we have Melee experience, so it automatically transfers to Brawl experience with no entropy' argument has a fatal contradiction that, no matter how much we say it, you will never understand: Brawl is not equatable to Melee, and thus neither is experience. We need to explore every avenue.

And about testing in controlled settings... I certainly hope that's a joke. Again, playtesting was done in a carefully controlled environment, and look what we've broken already! The whole REASON we need to have tournaments with rules like 'Final Smashes On', 'All Items', and 'All Stages' is expressly to undermine the controlled environment and allow people to find out what is different this time around. Of course you'll get the same results from Melee if you always play no items on already tournament-approved stages! The whole point of scientific testing is to explore avenues that haven't been tested yet! Is this so hard to understand?

And you're entirely right; I haven't played Brawl... which is expressly WHY I'm reserving judgment!

At least there are people who are willing to TRY to make things better, or at least different enough to know what better is. As it stands right now, we're looking at Melee with a couple new viable characters. Whoopee. We should all be so proud of ourselves.

 

[Yuna]

A very important note:
I've played the game (extensively). A majority of the competitive players (in fact, almost all of them) who've played the game extensively and tested Final Smashes out agree with me that FS:es cannot possibly be used in tournaments.

Have you played Brawl? Have you yourself tested the game out to see how "easy" it is to dodge Marth's FS and avoid it? How easy it is to win against Marth with or without his FS? How balanced FS:es are?

Do you have to see that Brinstar stage which randomly turns upside down played in tournaments before you realize it's broken and needs to be banned? Tether Recovery only characters have to always stick close to a ledge in order to never randomly die when the stage turns.

Then why can't you just realize that not everything has to be tested before it's banned? I mean, what if we discover a character who has a combo from 0% to death on any stage (and any part of it) that's guaranteed once the initial hit hits? How hard would it be to realize that it's too broken to be allowed in tournaments?

Marth just needs to get the Smash Ball, which appears quite often even on the lowest setting because items aren't meant to appear only once every 4 minutes. Once he gets it, he'll most probably take a stock off you if he's worth his salt.

Another great use of the Smash Ball is that once you have it, you can start running away. Sonic is already ungodly fast and good at running away, using his Spin Attacks at intervalls to keep the opponent at bay and then running away again. Once you've done that long enough, unleash that Final Smash which last for a whopping 20 or so seconds (you're not only invincibile during the startup of all Final Smashes, you're also invincible during the FS:es themselves).

Even if your opponent managed to dodge all of the blows, they'll still lose on time if they're behind. This can be done with a great number of FS:es as a lot of them take a long time to finish.

 

[ShortAssassin]

I HIGHLY doubt Smash Balls will even be a CONSIDERATION for tournament play. Just because you have to fight for them doesn't mean that there is no luck involved in getting them. Let's say just as an attack of mine connects that will send you flying, a Smash Ball materializes. Now I have the time it takes you to recover to beat up on the Smash Ball. By the time you reach the edge I'm ready for my FS.

It's the same reason we ban other items. And while, I haven't played Brawl to test all the Final Smashes, Yuna's logic seems pretty **** good.

 

[Yuna]

And your thinking is exactly what I find detestable about the current situation: we, the obviously inferior, have to take your word for it that Marth's Final Smash is unavoidable. I don't care if people have played the Japanese Brawl; there are differences between the US and PAL versions of Melee. That's strike one for your argument.

Brawl is not Melee. And you think that they'll have enough time to nerf broken FS:es in time for the American release because it's 2 months later? Do you think pressing and shipping only takes a few days?

Also, why would they nerf the FS:es? They obviously don't really care about competitive play and focus mostly on the casual players. And the casual players like the FS:es because they're flashy and don't really care that much about balance.

No one ever said it was unavoidable. It's just broken. You can combo into it, at which point it becomes unavoidable once that first fair/d-tilt/u-tilt/u-air/f-tilt/jab hits you. It kills you at 0%.

Yes, we do need to test out EVERY POSSIBILITY for tournaments. Look at Bowser's so-called 'infinite jump'; that got past playtesting, did it not? There is a whole world of possibilities that we are guaranteeing that we will miss out on if we don't look for them. Your shortsighted 'well, we have Melee experience, so it automatically transfers to Brawl experience with no entropy' argument has a fatal contradiction that, no matter how much we say it, you will never understand: Brawl is not equatable to Melee, and thus neither is experience. We need to explore every avenue.

What's wrong with banning obviously broken things that will break competitive gameplay until such time that worksaround have been found?! Why purposely have broken tournaments when it can be avoided?

What's wrong with banning it for now? And if you or someone else finds a magical workaround, we'll unban it.

And Brawl doesn't have any magical backdoors against FS:es besides what we already know. Or do you really think there are magical FS-canceling Advanced Techniques where if you hit a special sequence, all FS:es become useless? Unless we find some gamebreaking glitch, there's no way to get around getting comboed into a one hit KO-move at 0%.

Bowser's "infinite jump" got past playtesting? And that's got what to do with anything? A lot of stuff gets past playtesting because the people who tested Brawl obviously didn't play Melee competitively.

And about testing in controlled settings... I certainly hope that's a joke. Again, playtesting was done in a carefully controlled environment, and look what we've broken already! The whole REASON we need to have tournaments with rules like 'Final Smashes On', 'All Items', and 'All Stages' is expressly to undermine the controlled environment and allow people to find out what is different this time around. Of course you'll get the same results from Melee if you always play no items on already tournament-approved stages! The whole point of scientific testing is to explore avenues that haven't been tested yet! Is this so hard to understand?

Umm... you need a better grasp of the English language and logic.

The people who playtested Brawl for Nintend of Japan = Random people who work for Nintendo.
The people who will playtest Brawl to determine competitive rules = Us, the players
Obviously broken things obvious to anyone who's played anything competitively = Needs to be banned first and then allowed if workarounds can be found

At least there are people who are willing to TRY to make things better, or at least different enough to know what better is. As it stands right now, we're looking at Melee with a couple new viable characters. Whoopee. We should all be so proud of ourselves.

I am willing to try. I have and still am testing Brawl to find out new techniques and ways to play it.

But unless we find any, there's no reason to allow FS:es in tournaments! Why spend money, time, effort, travel expenses and work on entering tournaments that allow everything when a brunt of it is obviously broken? And to what purpose? So the few who like the brokeneness can have more fun?

What's wrong with playtesting it outside of tournaments in "controlled" environments of "A lot of competitive players playing each other and analyzing the game"? You think it's impossible to find new ways to play the game outside of tournaments? Have you ever played any game competitively?

How hard is it to realize that Pit's stage is broken? Break the platforms, smash the enemy off stage. They are now forced to recover simply by DI:ing and air controlling towards the stage. If they at any time get below the stage by even a smidge, anyone with a tether-only recovery is dead.

The Wario Ware Stage: "Win" one of the minigames and get a powerup like a Super Mushroom (which will allow you to kill people at exceptionally low percentage... and deal out more damage). Certain minigames can kill you at really low %s unless you're standing in the right spot.

New Brinstar: Sometimes, a flood of lava will come and kill anyone who's not inside of that capsule-thingie. Both players will rush to it and the one who can throw the other one out will win because it's a one hit KO.

Other New Brinstar: The stage randomly turns upside down. Tether-only chars have to camp the ledges to never get killed by the turning. You can never do anything that lags even remotely because you might die because of the turn-around.

And so on and so on and so on.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

1) Have you played the game?
2) Why would you want to "get out of his range" when you're behind on either percentage or stocks? You'd lose one the time ran out. Also, what makes you think the Marth wouldn't try to approach you?
3) All FS:es give you instant invincibility from the frame they're activated. Even if you can avoid them, you will have lost once someone like Marth gets the Smash Ball because you would be unable to ever approach them. You'd need to have a character with an incredibly good projectile game (of which there are few in Brawl). The second you try to approach with an aerial, Marth can just activate his FS and break through your attack. As such, the Smash Ball is also the Ultimate Camping Tool. Grab it and camp. You're going to force your opponent to approach if they're behind and they'll be forced to risk almost certain death by trying to somehow knock the Smash Ball out of you without actually aerially approaching or getting close enough for your FS to hit.
4) Marth can combo into his FS (as can Link, Young Link, Sheik and possibly Zelda). There ain't no dodging/avoiding an FS when you're getting comboed into it.
5) Marth has the FS. He can still approach you and try to knock you into the air/ground/whatever, anything to stun you long enough to combo into the FS. You cannot approach him well back without a great risk to your stock (as the FS itself inflicts, like, 70% or so damage and then KO you, so it's highly unlikely you're ever going to survive it). If you hit Marth, he'll possibly lose the FS (some characters require only one single smack, others require three aerials). If Marth hits you, you're dead.
6) Marth is already an incredibly good character with a great aerial approach, combos, finishers and other broken ****s in general. Add to this his godly FS and competitive FS-play will boil down pretty much to picking him or 1-2 other characters, at most.

Marth's FS is either a One Hit KO or a stock out of Marth's if he misses. Just like in this video. He isn't going to hit you with his Final Smash if you are below the actual stage or high above him. You can also risk yourself by doing an air dodge and let Marth KO himself with his Final Smash. Not all Final Smashes makes the characters invincible, some like Peach's and Luigi you can easily avoid by staying in the air. Some like Mario's and Ganondorf, you just have to jump high to avoid it. Some requires a hit to activate it. Marth's is just like Link's and Toon Link's FS, you jump high enough or avoid it just by Tether or hanging around the edge, you can easily avoid it and let Marth KO himself. Also, characters like Ike who has super armor can avoid attacks. With Ike, all he has to do is Aether and he can easily stay without being knocked out of the stage while still gaining damage from it.

 

[JJJ.Brawler]

Taking away the smash ball is like taking away everyone's dair because some spike, and then saying " using the dair is now banned because Marth's dair is better than Zelda's!"
It doesn't make any sense. A FS could be what makes a character good or bad, taking AN ATTACK away from everyone is completely stupid.
Sure, some FS's may be a little cheap, BUT it doesn't matter. Some peoples fair is cheap but that doesn't mean you should ban it from everyone.

 

[Libomasus]

Another good mention is Hyrule's Castle, which was banned because Fox could camp until the match ended. Its the same thing here, the opponent has no real viable way to steal the FS without getting hurt in the process. This is because they're broken, since using it gives you invincibility frames when you pull it off.

Its just unnecessary. Melee knowledge or not, its a gameplay aspect that isn't worth keeping or debating about. Its common knowledge, and they're isn't always something you can find by testing everything.

 

[fr0st2k]

Taking away the smash ball is like taking away everyone's dair because some spike, and then saying " using the dair is now banned because Marth's dair is better than Zelda's!"
It doesn't make any sense. A FS could be what makes a character good or bad, taking AN ATTACK away from everyone is completely stupid.
Sure, some FS's may be a little cheap, BUT it doesn't matter. Some peoples fair is cheap but that doesn't mean you should ban it from everyone.

simple, elegantly stated, and 100% correct

people like yuna will never understand this, they cant. They are so caught up in the past 7 years of their life, aka melee, that they simply are blind to the fact that brawl is actually a new game.

The whole idea is that the smash ball is NOT as random as you think. That is the argument. Arguing about anything other than that is moot.

If you get the smash ball instead of marth, then marth doesnt get a 1hit KO on you. (PERIOD)

 

[Banjodorf]

I like this idea :D

Agreed.

Spoiler

10char

 

[Libomasus]

simple, elegantly stated, and 100% correct

people like yuna will never understand this, they cant. They are so caught up in the past 7 years of their life, aka melee, that they simply are blind to the fact that brawl is actually a new game.

The whole idea is that the smash ball is NOT as random as you think. That is the argument. Arguing about anything other than that is moot.

If you get the smash ball instead of marth, then marth doesnt get a 1hit KO on you. (PERIOD)

Thats a horrible assumption to make. There isn't some magical transition phase from Melee-Brawl that changes everything, common sense still applies.

Also, the argument that its random has been covered already. Now you have to realize that having a Smash Ball puts you at too much of an advantage, allowing you to camp since FS can be pulled off almost instantaneously. Its another form of unnecessary stalling, and its also broken.

 

[Jack Kieser]

A very important note:
I've played the game (extensively). A majority of the competitive players (in fact, almost all of them) who've played the game extensively and tested Final Smashes out agree with me that FS:es cannot possibly be used in tournaments.

Have you played Brawl? Have you yourself tested the game out to see how "easy" it is to dodge Marth's FS and avoid it? How easy it is to win against Marth with or without his FS? How balanced FS:es are?

Do you have to see that Brinstar stage which randomly turns upside down played in tournaments before you realize it's broken and needs to be banned? Tether Recovery only characters have to always stick close to a ledge in order to never randomly die when the stage turns.

Then why can't you just realize that not everything has to be tested before it's banned? I mean, what if we discover a character who has a combo from 0% to death on any stage (and any part of it) that's guaranteed once the initial hit hits? How hard would it be to realize that it's too broken to be allowed in tournaments?

Marth just needs to get the Smash Ball, which appears quite often even on the lowest setting because items aren't meant to appear only once every 4 minutes. Once he gets it, he'll most probably take a stock off you if he's worth his salt.

Another great use of the Smash Ball is that once you have it, you can start running away. Sonic is already ungodly fast and good at running away, using his Spin Attacks at intervalls to keep the opponent at bay and then running away again. Once you've done that long enough, unleash that Final Smash which last for a whopping 20 or so seconds (you're not only invincibile during the startup of all Final Smashes, you're also invincible during the FS:es themselves).

Even if your opponent managed to dodge all of the blows, they'll still lose on time if they're behind. This can be done with a great number of FS:es as a lot of them take a long time to finish.

You've played Brawl? Extensively? Here's a round of applause and a cookie for you; well done!

I can tell you haven't read very deeply into a single one of my posts, because every single time I responded to you, I made it very clear that a select number of elite players privlaged enough to play the Japanese game does not equate to MILLIONS of people playing the final American release of the game for a period of no less than 12 months, as well as the fact that I have not played Brawl a single time. Your critical reading/thinking skills are really superb.

Wobbling on the Ice Climbers was banned for a long time, wasn't it? I believe the reason was that it allowed the person playing Ice Climbers to basically 0-to-death you if they could manage a single grab. I ask you, Mr. Tournament Savvy... is Wobbling banned now? Last time I checked, which just so happened to be here on Smashboards, the answer to that particular question was 'no, Wobbling is not banned'. I'm sure you know why, but for those reading who may not be tournament gurus like yourself: a workaround was discovered that allowed people to basically DI out of the attack at lower percentages, around 50% to be precise, thus negating the 'brokenness' of the technique.

I'm going to say this again, because it bears repetition: it took Melee almost two solid years before it's tournament scene became what we know today. In all technicality, the Melee scene NOW is really much different then it was after those first two years. Things change; that's how time and experience work. If we, as a community, always listen to you, the oh-so-knowledgeable ones who know the ins and outs of Brawl so very well already, even after only three or so weeks of play, then we'll NEVER get anywhere. I understand that everything you are saying about Marth's Final Smash (and Final Smashes in general) is applicable NOW, right at this very moment... but that may very well change by the time I'm done typing this.

The fact is that we just don't know yet.

If we cement these rules in place now, we are condemning ourselves to a way of thought that has not changed in years, namely the current tournament mentality. A new game has come out; I really don't understand why you are so (obviously) scared to experiment. You don't have to like it; you don't have to ascribe to it. But, you have a duty to yourself, as well as the community you belong to, to try. If you don't understand that... then I really feel sorry for you. As for me, and I'm sure many others, when Brawl comes out HERE (and/or in Europe), we'll play every possible combination of playstyles to see if there is anything out there that can enhance the tournament scene to make it as enclusive and enjoyable as possible for the greatest number of people, and maybe one of us will discover a way to circumvent Marth's Final Smash, almost in the way Ike's Super-Armor completely undermines it's strength.

 

[ShortAssassin]

Taking away the smash ball is like taking away everyone's dair because some spike, and then saying " using the dair is now banned because Marth's dair is better than Zelda's!"
It doesn't make any sense. A FS could be what makes a character good or bad, taking AN ATTACK away from everyone is completely stupid.
Sure, some FS's may be a little cheap, BUT it doesn't matter. Some peoples fair is cheap but that doesn't mean you should ban it from everyone.

Not analogous at all. Using an attack is not a matter of luck. You can choose to use or not use an attack, you cannot choose when/where a Smash Ball spawns.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth's FS is either a One Hit KO or a stock out of Marth's if he misses. Just like in this video. He isn't going to hit you with his Final Smash if you are below the actual stage or high above him. You can also risk yourself by doing an air dodge and let Marth KO himself with his Final Smash. Not all Final Smashes makes the characters invincible, some like Peach's and Luigi you can easily avoid by staying in the air. Some like Mario's and Ganondorf, you just have to jump high to avoid it. Some requires a hit to activate it. Marth's is just like Link's and Toon Link's FS, you jump high enough or avoid it just by Tether or hanging around the edge, you can easily avoid it and let Marth KO himself. Also, characters like Ike who has super armor can avoid attacks. With Ike, all he has to do is Aether and he can easily stay without being knocked out of the stage while still gaining damage from it.

First, don't be ********. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142648 All Marth has to do to ensure that he won't die is activate the FS while he's grounded. He stops at the end of the stage (with all his FS lag being cancelled btw).

Second, your forgetting that...Marth can COMBO INTO IT. He's not just going to activate the FS as soon as you get in range, he's going to poke you with a d-tilt or fair so he can link it together. He could also just camp and wait for you to mess up.

Third, going to the ledge against Marth is a very bad idea. You do realize that his f-smash and d-tilt do still hit the ledge right? The saving grace against Marth's edgeguarding is the autosweetspot, but going straight to the ledge (which you can't let go of immediately btw) is just begging him to poke at you when your invincibility frames run out.

And against Ike, Marth can simply camp and wait for Ike to do almost any attack and hit him in the lag. Marth is already better than Ike at the range game, but this just makes it even better.


Almost all of these situations for Marth can also be applied to Link and Toon Link, because their FSes are also very fast.

Sonic gets to use his FS as both a means of stalling, and as an extremely easy way to kill you.

So yeah, FSes are not nearly as easy to avoid as you think.

 

[Yuna]

Marth's FS is either a One Hit KO or a stock out of Marth's if he misses.

You have obviously not played the game or even bothered to research it beyond surface level. Marth will only lunge off the stage if he performs his Final Smash in the air. If he's on the ground, he'll stop if he reaches the edge. Heck, he doesn't even lunge that far forward if he whiffs.

He isn't going to hit you with his Final Smash if you are below the actual stage or high above him.

And what can you do to him in those instances? Are you going to spend the remainder of the match hanging on the ledge despite Marth being one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding people on the edge? Or spend the entire match constantly trying to stay far above him?

And do you really think the Marth is going to be stupid enough to not chase you around?

You can also risk yourself by doing an air dodge and let Marth KO himself with his Final Smash.

We're not talking about Idiot Marth Players here, we're talking about competitive ones. If you airdodge randomly, he'll just wait 'til the invincibility runs off and then activate it. It's not even hard as the hitbox stays out for a long while.

Not all Final Smashes makes the characters invincible, some like Peach's and Luigi you can easily avoid by staying in the air. Some like Mario's and Ganondorf, you just have to jump high to avoid it.

It's not that they can be won over. It's that they cannot be hit during them.

Some requires a hit to activate it. Marth's is just like Link's and Toon Link's FS, you jump high enough or avoid it just by Tether or hanging around the edge, you can easily avoid it and let Marth KO himself.

Also, characters like Ike who has super armor can avoid attacks. With Ike, all he has to do is Aether and he can easily stay without being knocked out of the stage while still gaining damage from it.

Again, not Your Friend The Stupid Idiot Marth Player but, let's say, me, the At Least Moderately Competent Marth Player. Will... never... happen. If you're Ike and you Aether me, I'll just wait for it to end (after which you'll lag for quite some time) and kick your ***.

If you're camping the ledge, I'll D-tilt you, forcing you off it, then grab you and throw you off the edge and then edgeguard you 'til you either die or try to get onto the stage, at which time I'll activate my Final Smash and wham! Dead you.

Have you ever faced anyone even remotely competent as Marth?

Taking away the smash ball is like taking away everyone's dair because some spike, and then saying " using the dair is now banned because Marth's dair is better than Zelda's!"
It doesn't make any sense. A FS could be what makes a character good or bad, taking AN ATTACK away from everyone is completely stupid.
Sure, some FS's may be a little cheap, BUT it doesn't matter. Some peoples fair is cheap but that doesn't mean you should ban it from everyone.

No one has a 1 hit KO at 0% with can be comboed into without the Final Smash, neither in Brawl nor in Melee. In order to spike someone (for which you had to be playing one of a select few characters since most "spikes" are meteorcancellable and therefore meteor smashes), you'd have to first get them off the stage and then mindgame them into it since there's DI to never get low enough to be easily spiked and recovery mind games to prevent yourself from getting spiked.

You cannot prevent yourself from getting FS:ed unless you're going to spend the rest of the game running away for your life and never approaching and never getting hit by the opponent.

 

[Libomasus]

If we cement these rules in place now, we are condemning ourselves to a way of thought that has not changed in years, namely the current tournament mentality. A new game has come out; I really don't understand why you are so (obviously) scared to experiment.

The only one who isn't reading posts is you. Yuna even said it isn't permanent, just that its easy to see that its broken here and now. If there is a workaround maybe, but that'd workaround would have to be pretty big to allow someone to steal an FS without punishment.

 

[Yuna]

If you get the smash ball instead of marth, then marth doesnt get a 1hit KO on you. (PERIOD)

Brilliant strategy. "Just don't let him have hit". Just as good as "Never get hit". And it's obvious every single character in the game can prevent him from getting it every time it appears, because it's that easy!

Wobbling on the Ice Climbers was banned for a long time, wasn't it? I believe the reason was that it allowed the person playing Ice Climbers to basically 0-to-death you if they could manage a single grab. I ask you, Mr. Tournament Savvy... is Wobbling banned now? Last time I checked, which just so happened to be here on Smashboards, the answer to that particular question was 'no, Wobbling is not banned'. I'm sure you know why, but for those reading who may not be tournament gurus like yourself: a workaround was discovered that allowed people to basically DI out of the attack at lower percentages, around 50% to be precise, thus negating the 'brokenness' of the technique.

* It was universally banned for a long time? When? How long? Where?
* It's been unbanned universally now? When? How long? Where?
* It can be DI:ed out of at 50% now? When? How long? Where? Proof? Anything?

I'm going to say this again, because it bears repetition: it took Melee almost two solid years before it's tournament scene became what we know today. In all technicality, the Melee scene NOW is really much different then it was after those first two years. Things change; that's how time and experience work. If we, as a community, always listen to you, the oh-so-knowledgeable ones who know the ins and outs of Brawl so very well already, even after only three or so weeks of play, then we'll NEVER get anywhere. I understand that everything you are saying about Marth's Final Smash (and Final Smashes in general) is applicable NOW, right at this very moment... but that may very well change by the time I'm done typing this.

The Melee scene was tiny back when Melee was first released. That's why it took so long. It's huge now. We've got all of these players on a level way above anyone before the release of Melee available to test the game.

And I ask you again, you yourself have finally admitted to FS:es being broken from what we know so far. Then why not ban them and then unban them if it's ever discovered that they really aren't that broken?! Why allow them at all when it's so obvious from what we know so far that they are broken?!

Answer this question before you try to repeat your arguments yet again because you've ignored it insofar.

Will people suffer greatly from the ban? Because until such a time where workarounds are discovered, the FS:es will be broken and they will determine the outcomes of tournaments!

It's not a case of us not banning something because we don't know about how broken it is yet. It's a case of us banning something we know is broken until such a thing (if ever) it's discovered that it isn't really that broken.

Not comparable to Wobbling or anything else in Melee.

 

[fr0st2k]

Brilliant strategy. "Just don't let him have hit". Just as good as "Never get hit". And it's obvious every single character in the game can prevent him from getting it every time it appears, because it's that easy!

yes ... isnt that the goal when you play 1v1 in melee in tourneys? try not to get hit? freakin duh to you.

its a strategy, part of the game. god , how thick headed can 1 person be.

 

[TheRooster]

Wow so much anger.
Lets take a deep breath here people and try to remember that we were originally talking about TWO SEPARATE tournaments here.

 

[Libomasus]

Its a dumb part of the game that makes it stupid easy for Marth players to win. Isn't that part of the game bannable?

Also:

The use of the IC Infinite otherwise known as "Wobbles" is BANNED. If a player uses the infinite then they forfeit that game of the set automatically. The set will continue as normal. If the violation occurs in the first game, then the rules follow as usual. Etc. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Upcoming UCLA tourney.

 

[Yuna]

yes ... isnt that the goal when you play 1v1 in melee in tourneys? try not to get hit? freakin duh to you.

its a strategy, part of the game. god , how thick headed can 1 person be.

I bow to you, great master of competitive smashing (or just gaming in general). Everyone delete your accounts now out of disgust for not yet reaching the level of enlightenment he/she has obviously reached.

We must now abandon this discussion because it's already been won.

 

[Losnar]

Sure Marth's FS is nasty, but so are many other characters'.

Stop bein a baby.

 

[ShortAssassin]

Sure Marth's FS is nasty, but so are many other characters'.

Stop bein a baby.

Regardless of the strength of the final smashes, there is still luck involved in getting the Smash Ball.

 

[Libomasus]

Sure Marth's FS is nasty, but so are many other characters'.

Stop bein a baby.

Does no one read!? I haven't seen something so blatantly conclusive in all of Smashboards, ever...

 

[fr0st2k]

I bow to you, great master of competitive smashing (or just gaming in general). Everyone delete your accounts now out of disgust for not yet reaching the level of enlightenment he/she has obviously reached.

We must now abandon this discussion because it's already been won.

i really hate that watery stuff that pops up in peanutbutter when you dont eat it for a while.

thats about the best response i can give you, you dont seem to listen to anything else since you know everything already, and fail to interpret other peoples suggestions and opinions.

 

[Libomasus]

i really hate that watery stuff that pops up in peanutbutter when you dont eat it for a while.

thats about the best response i can give you, you dont seem to listen to anything else since you know everything already, and fail to interpret other peoples suggestions and opinions.

Your describing yourself there buddy. Everybody is so intent on proving Yuna is some disapproving **** that they're failing to see any of the insight...

EDIT:

prove it.

i can say " there is still luck involved in swinging marths sword and hopefully hitting someone.

what makes getting the smashball luck? It follows rules. Just like when you hit a character a certain percentage, the smash ball flies in different directions after being hit.

See, you're still going on about that. Can't you see that Smashballs are broken because anybody who is half-decent can sit there and camp with his FS all day? The other player can't go towards him because they could just use their FS, and if they try to run away its even worse. Anything that can inhibit that kind of stalling is banned, thats the point here.

 

[fr0st2k]

Regardless of the strength of the final smashes, there is still luck involved in getting the Smash Ball.

prove it.

i can say " there is still luck involved in swinging marths sword and hopefully hitting someone.

what makes getting the smashball luck? It follows rules. Just like when you hit a character a certain percentage, the smash ball flies in different directions after being hit.

 

[fr0st2k]

Your describing yourself there buddy. Everybody is so intent on proving Yuna is some disapproving **** that they're failing to see any of the insight...

he says nothing important. He keeps saying "No, theyre bad, this is why i think their bad" with no proof. Its his opionion vs mine. Even the things im saying were never absolute (unlike what yuna is trying to dish out). It was merely speculation and food for thought.

The idea here it to cement reasons as to why or why not the smashball is random, and hence confirm whether or not they can be added to legitimate tournaments.

 

[Xengri]

Wow, this thread changes topics a lot…
What is the topic of this thread anyway?

Regardless, I’m going to have to go with Yuna on this one.

To a extent, we really don’t have to test everything to already know what will be allowed in the standard tournament.
Past smash knowledge tells us what to look for.

Stages for example.

It’s common sense that drastic changes in stage atmosphere is bad for competition.

Guess what stage has that?

Frigate Orpheon.

It gives you only a split second before it turns sometime completely upside down,

Do we have to test this?

Another example.

We know from melee that infinite glacier isn’t a standard tournament stage.

Guess what stage closely resembles it?

Rumble Falls.

We know that a vertical scrolling stages don’t work for standard smash tournaments.

Same thing goes when comparing melee’s Hyrule tmeple to Brawls New port city. Drastically large stages have proven to be unbalanced.


Same thing applies to items.

Explosives such as the Bomb-omb are generally seen as overpowered. Same thing would go for the smart bomb and the gooey bomb right?
So why test it?

As for smash balls, this concept is new to smash so we can’t fall back on prier smash knowledge. However, just look at what they do to balance.

I’m not going to use Marth since, he’s over used as a example but, others are just as bad as him.

The space animals have a final smash just as overpowered as Marth, basically a free stock.

Now for characters like Jiggly that lack good final smashes, they’d be put at a severe disadvantage when up against a space animal.

When a smash ball appears, the Jiggly player has basically nothing to gain by getting it, yet he has to fight for it anyway since, if he doesn’t get it, that’s basically one of his stocks.
Remember, that’s 3 characters that have that final smash. Do we really want to put characters such as jiggly and Lucario in such a unfair position against such a large portion of the roster?

In short:

There really is no reason to have to test something that,

A. we already know doesn’t work do to past knowledge and experiments

Or

B. is overwhelmingly obvious


( Notice how I say, “standard tournaments”. Any host is free to make up any rules regardless of the standard.)

 

[GhostAnime]

i can say " there is still luck involved in swinging marths sword and hopefully hitting someone.

poor analogy. you are in control of marth's sword.

what makes getting the smashball luck?

it's a starman in a floating box.

 

[Dark Sonic]

what makes getting the smashball luck? It follows rules. Just like when you hit a character a certain percentage, the smash ball flies in different directions after being hit.

The fact that it spawns in a random location at a random time? It would've been a lot more viable if it spawned at a set location at a set time interval (and wasn't completely broken, but that's a different topic).

Items that spawn randomly reward you for your location on the stage, which you may or may not have earned. That's why items in general are bad for competative play. If they spawned in specific locations like in other fighting games then stratagies could be built around them, but as they are now they are really just giving a player a completely random bonus during a match.

 

[ShortAssassin]

prove it.

i can say " there is still luck involved in swinging marths sword and hopefully hitting someone.

what makes getting the smashball luck? It follows rules. Just like when you hit a character a certain percentage, the smash ball flies in different directions after being hit.

The **** do I have to prove?

Sure there is luck in hitting someone with Marth's sword....if you're playing blindfolded. The Smashball spawns RANDOMLY. Someone could be off the stage when it spawns and then their opponent basically gets a free FS. Where is the fairness in that?

 

[GhostAnime]

has anybody mentioned about how you can break the smash ball with projectiles?

let's not give speedy projectile characters an even bigger advantage than they already have now.