Smash 4 Speculation Chart [WE UPDATE NOW]

[KingofPhantoms]

Funny you should say that. The characters in those games were Lolo and Lala, though. When they were added to Kirby's Dream Land 3 years later, they had an extra syllable added to their names and are essentially synonymous with Kirby at this point.

I don't think they're very likely in the first place, considering they haven't been in a single Kirby game outside of Dream Land 1 and Super Star.
Edit: Darn, ninja'd by a giant robot driver.

Actually, they were in Kirby's Avalanche and Kirby Mass Attack as well. (the canon of the former game itself is questionable though)

I see your point though, they're still unlikely.

 

[Deleted member]

They also had a pixel statue in Kirby's Dream Collection like Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Waddle Dee, and even Magolor.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ok so what's the tabs on the Kirby Series?

I'm not gonna do the numbers but it looks like Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, Knuckle Joe and Waddle Dee with prince Fluff and Dark Matter being borderline.

I know my choices for Star Fox but I'll wait.

 

[Deleted member]

Final tab:

Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Knuckle Joe, Waddle Dee, Dark Matter

Time for Star F***s.
I can already take a guess that people would vote to just keep the top row.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Really. I'd do the top row minus Slippy.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'd say keep the entire top row, considering how Slippy is surprisingly liked in Japan. He has more merit than the entire bottom row to boot. The entire bottom row can be removed, in my opinion. Wolf's cronies are by no means popular, Peppy is the least requested of Fox's team and doesn't partake in fighting so much as give advice, and Katt is an obscure choice, to say the least.

So that leaves the three in Brawl, the highly requested Krystal, and the last-resort/Japan-vote Slippy.

 

[FalKoopa]

GRC pretty much nailed it.

 

[Opossum]

I vote to keep only the top row, as well.

 

[Curious Villager]

Yeah just keep the top row like everyone else said.

 

[AEMehr]

Top row is fine with me.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Top row possibly plus Peppy.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

What God Robert's Cousin said. Top row.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Seems the SF disscussion went off quickly and cleanly.

Pokemon... That'll be a doozy.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Seems the SF disscussion went off quickly and cleanly.

Pokemon... That'll be a doozy.

I could give Pokemon a go like I did with Star Fox. No guarantees it'll be as easy, though. Sorry if discussion is going faster than planned, Golden.

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, and Lucario should all be on there for sure, having been actual characters. Meowth, Pichu, Plusle & Minun, a New Pokemon Trainer, and Zoroark I'd place as maybe, leaning towards yes. They were either planned and scrapped, are a legitimate possible replacement for Lucario and/or Pokemon trainer, or were an infamous joke-character in Melee.

The leftovers are all fodder, in my opinion. Rayquaza, Deoxys, Darkrai, Victini, and Genesect are legendary but have nothing else going on in Generation 5. Gardevoir, Dragonite, and Scizor all have nothing remotely notable compared to the rest of the Pokemon choices.

That's my two-cents about it, at least.
Edit: Golden is going to fight for keeping Rayquaza on part of being a boss, so sure, move Rayquaza up with the B-tier choices.

 

[SuperBrawler]

MEOWTH! My fav Possible Pokemon Rep choice.

 

[fogbadge]

remove dragonite darkrai and scizor

also wasnt there a thing where sakurai explained how pokemon were chosen for smash and he said something about the ones from the movies, so perhaps keldeo should be on the chart as he was the star of the first movie to come out during smash 4's development (or is that just a load of nonsense)

 

[Deleted member]

Pokémon is going a specific direction based on what Sakurai said, leaving very little room for suggestions.

THIS is why I don't want people jumping ahead.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Star Fox was pretty much unanimous. I didn't see what the issue was in moving on when the discussion was all still there for you to view after the fact, but if this really is an inconvenience then I apologize on my behalf.

Are we still talking about Star Fox, or can we move on now?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to be a **** and say discussion is halted for a while.

 

[AEMehr]

I'm going to be a **** and say discussion is halted for a while.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Probably just as well.

But while we wait why don't we go over some criteria for characters that can't be dropped so we have less arguments?

 

[CalumG]

Discussion may be dropped, and I know we're not on F-Zero at the moment anyway, but something that's really been bugging me is that Rick Wheeler didn't originate from a video game - he originated in the anime and then subsequently got put into spinoffs that were based on the anime (which Sakurai all but ignored in Brawl without even a trophy mention, to my knowledge). On these grounds would it be safe to say Rick Wheeler shouldn't be there? At this point he's got about as much going for him as Ash, Jessie or James.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Discussion may be dropped, and I know we're not on F-Zero at the moment anyway, but something that's really been bugging me is that Rick Wheeler didn't originate from a video game - he originated in the anime and then subsequently got put into spinoffs that were based on the anime (which Sakurai all but ignored in Brawl without even a trophy mention, to my knowledge). On these grounds would it be safe to say Rick Wheeler shouldn't be there? At this point he's got about as much going for him as Ash, Jessie or James.

I second this notion. Rick goes completely against Sakurai's criteria, and nobody is asking for him anyway. He shouldn't even be a choice.

 

[Deleted member]

1. Sakurai's criteria never mentioned that characters had to debut in a video game. This is a misconception I covered months ago.
What Sakurai said (during Brawl's development) was that there would not be any manga characters when he was asked about details regarding non-Nintendo characters.
Somehow, people got "all characters have to debut in a video game" from that, despite the context of what he said being for guest characters, and was more of a disconfirmation of characters frequently discussed by fans like Goku, Naruto, etc. than it was an outright stated requirement.

We wouldn't have had Lucario if it applied to Nintendo's characters. MegaMewtwo would be ineligible as well.

2. Rick is the main character of two of three F-Zero's canons.
Let me explain;
First, there is the "main" canon, which covers the original F-Zero title, X, GX/AX, and maybe Maximum Velocity. Falcon is the star here aside from Maximum Velocity, where someone who claims to be his son is the star (from what I know about the game).
Then there is the "anime" canon, which, not surprisingly, covers the anime. Rick is the main star here with Falcon as the deuteragonist.
Lastly, there is the "alternate" canon, which is similar to the "anime" canon as it borrows plenty of elements from it, but is a completely separate canon. This covers the GP Legend game as well as Climax, and like the "anime" universe, Rick is the main character while Falcon is a secondary major character.

Regardless of lack of requests, he's still a major figure in the franchise (more than what can be said of most of the series' recurring cast), and happens to be the main character of the most recent game in the franchise. This gives him more of a chance than anyone that isn't Goroh or B. Shadow.

The comparison to the likes of Ash doesn't make sense. Rick at the very least has his own game canon; the only game Ash was in was Pokémon Puzzle League, an American-exclusive remake of a Panel de Pon game.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Okay. Despite all that, I think the point still stands that in a series as low-profile as F-Zero, nobody really stands out as remotely possible aside from Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow. He was the main character of his own canon? Drop everything guys, the F-Zero canon in Smash Bros. will just have to make way for this.

Rick had nothing in Brawl, despite supposedly appearing in the most recent titles of the series. Clearly the main canon is the only regarded canon to Sakurai, with good reason in that Rick Wheeler, "the new Captain Falcon", couldn't coexist with the current Captain Falcon for the same reason as why two Pokemon Trainers wouldn't be able to simply be named "Pokemon Trainer". To rename Captain Falcon, one of the roster's greatest veterans and most well-known characters, into Douglas J. Falcon would make absolutely no sense. The less complicated route is to go with a better known racer like Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow, or any other racer for that matter. It's better than either breaking name consistency or changing Captain Falcon's name altogether. Beyond that, Rick Wheeler doesn't have the notability of either of the other choices. Yes, there's the chance he could appear, just like the chance that Lucy frickin' Fleetfoot from Pokemon Trozei could appear as a character because hey, she's the main character of her own canon, right?

This is your thread, so your word is the end all of this. I'm merely saying that if our job right now is to eliminate the possible choices, Rick should be one of those choices considering the chances of him appearing in this Smash Bros. is an absolute minimum. F-Zero doesn't need anymore characters as it is. We'd be getting one of the antagonists or nothing else, simple as that. I really don't see why there's any debate about this at all when you know as well as I do that he's extremely unlikely to happen.

If you're so sure about Wheeler's inclusion, let someone else besides yourself have input on this. Who else here thinks Wheeler is getting in above Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow?

 

[CalumG]

Okay. Despite all that, I think the point still stands that in a series as low-profile as F-Zero, nobody really stands out as remotely possible aside from Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow. He was the main character of his own canon? Drop everything guys, the F-Zero canon in Smash Bros. will just have to make way for this.

Rick had nothing in Brawl, despite supposedly appearing in the most recent titles of the series. Clearly the main canon is the only regarded canon to Sakurai, with good reason in that Rick Wheeler, "the new Captain Falcon", couldn't coexist with the current Captain Falcon for the same reason as why two Pokemon Trainers wouldn't be able to simply be named "Pokemon Trainer". To rename Captain Falcon, one of the roster's greatest veterans and most well-known characters, into Douglas J. Falcon would make absolutely no sense. The less complicated route is to go with a better known racer like Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow, or any other racer for that matter. It's better than either breaking name consistency or changing Captain Falcon's name altogether. Beyond that, Rick Wheeler doesn't have the notability of either of the other choices. Yes, there's the chance he could appear, just like the chance that Lucy frickin' Fleetfoot from Pokemon Trozei could appear as a character because hey, she's the main character of her own canon, right?

This is your thread, so your word is the end all of this. I'm merely saying that if our job right now is to eliminate the possible choices, Rick should be one of those choices considering the chances of him appearing in this Smash Bros. is an absolute minimum. F-Zero doesn't need anymore characters as it is. We'd be getting one of the antagonists or nothing else, simple as that. I really don't see why there's any debate about this at all when you know as well as I do that he's extremely unlikely to happen.

If you're so sure about Wheeler's inclusion, let someone else besides yourself have input on this. Who else here thinks Wheeler is getting in above Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow?

Well... as much as I agree that Rick Wheeler should be struck from the list, if we're getting technical and acknowledging the GP Legend continuity, Falcon wouldn't even be called Douglas - he'd be called either Bart Lemming (his alias) or Andy Summer (his real identity as Jody Summer's 'dead' brother). Not that it matters either way, but the more you know.

 

[FalKoopa]

If Rick Wheeler stays, I should ask for Vaati to be re-added to the chart, really.

Rick is just eligible at best. That isn't enough to keep him on the chart.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay. Despite all that, I think the point still stands that in a series as low-profile as F-Zero, nobody really stands out as remotely possible aside from Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow. He was the main character of his own canon? Drop everything guys, the F-Zero canon in Smash Bros. will just have to make way for this.

There is no F-Zero canon in Smash Bros.; only Smash canon. Sarcasm statement doesn't make sense.

Rick had nothing in Brawl, despite supposedly appearing in the most recent titles of the series. Clearly the main canon is the only regarded canon to Sakurai, with good reason in that Rick Wheeler, "the new Captain Falcon", couldn't coexist with the current Captain Falcon for the same reason as why two Pokemon Trainers wouldn't be able to simply be named "Pokemon Trainer". To rename Captain Falcon, one of the roster's greatest veterans and most well-known characters, into Douglas J. Falcon would make absolutely no sense. The less complicated route is to go with a better known racer like Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow, or any other racer for that matter. It's better than either breaking name consistency or changing Captain Falcon's name altogether. Beyond that, Rick Wheeler doesn't have the notability of either of the other choices. Yes, there's the chance he could appear, just like the chance that Lucy frickin' Fleetfoot from Pokemon Trozei could appear as a character because hey, she's the main character of her own canon, right?

After your sarcastic remark and this whole paragraph, I'm not going to even attempt to be nice about this.

-The only point of value within the entire paragraph is the first sentence. It is a valid point that Rick had no reference within Smash (other than Falcon's design seemingly borrowing some aspects from Wheeler's "New Falcon" design from Climax) nor did the alternate canon get mentioned outside of the Chronicle. Despite this, it doesn't mean that it can't be changed (especially since the anime has reruns in Japan), nor does it mean that Sakurai absolutely discredits it.

But honestly, you better hope Sakurai does acknowledge it's existence. Goroh and B. Shadow are pretty much screwed otherwise. What, you didn't think it would only affect Wheeler in regards to Smash, did you? Lol. The anime is the reason B. Shadow even has requests (and also gave him supernatural powers to use), and it gave Goroh more skill than he has in the "main" canon, which established him to be rather pathetic.

-The point about how he and Captain Falcon can't co-exist is pure bull****.
There are TWO different "Links" in Brawl. One is simply "Link". The other is referred to as "Toon Link" to prevent confusion. At the very least, Rick Wheeler actually has a different name; "Rick Wheeler". Don't see why he would be another "Captain Falcon", especially when his time as "New Falcon" (oh look, a different name) in the alternate continuity was only temporary (Falcon faked his death after confrontation with Blood Falcon and came back as "Beserker" to infiltrate B. Shadow's organization, during which, Wheeler took the mantle until Falcon revealed himself.).

Also referring to Falcon as "one of the roster's greatest veterans" to try to support your point should automatically discredit it. Well, if the point wasn't bull**** itself, anyway.

-Doesn't have the requests =/= isn't as notable. Bear in mind that B. Shadow isn't that notable outside of the anime, meaning that really, only Falcon and Goroh can be seen as "notable" by your logic, and Goroh only so because of the comic in the original game's manual and the Fire Stingray being the best vehicle of that game. Which then caused a chain reaction; because of his machine being the best, Goroh was the only F-Zero newcomer requested in Japan for Melee. As a result (and because of his rivalry with Falcon), he was in Melee's opening. Because of THAT, he got requests for Brawl. Which then lead to him being an Assist. Unfortunately, that caused a split, some people gave up support because he was an Assist while others use that as more reason to support him.
Aside from that, Wheeler's more notable than ****ing Dr. Stewart, and he's been in the series since the first game.

-Using a single spin-off puzzle game of a huge franchise to sarcastically compare to 1/3 of a franchise that is rather niche is very idiotic. It's something I would see Noah doing a few months back.
You know a better comparison? The different timelines of Zelda. And look where we are with Brawl; Two different Links (who actually share the same identity) from two different canons.

This is your thread, so your word is the end all of this. I'm merely saying that if our job right now is to eliminate the possible choices, Rick should be one of those choices considering the chances of him appearing in this Smash Bros. is an absolute minimum. F-Zero doesn't need anymore characters as it is. We'd be getting one of the antagonists or nothing else, simple as that. I really don't see why there's any debate about this at all when you know as well as I do that he's extremely unlikely to happen.

There is debate because you decided to be smartass and make sarcastic remarks (with faulty logic, I might add) over what I said in context of why he's on the chart when I really wasn't talking to you directly.
And Goroh is not an antagonist. He's a rival. (Well, self-proclaimed rival, but still).

It's rather ironic though, that apparently, Wheeler is extremely unlikely to happen but Prince Fluff, Magolor, and Dark Matter are a-ok.

If you're so sure about Wheeler's inclusion, let someone else besides yourself have input on this. Who else here thinks Wheeler is getting in above Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow?

Never claimed he was going to get in over Goroh or B. Shadow, nor did I ever claim he was exceptionally likely. Don't put words in my mouth unless you want me to bite the hand that does.
In fact, I'm willing to get rid of Wheeler should more people vote to have him removed ONCE WE GET TO F-ZERO DISCUSION (but hopefully not ***** about it like what I've seen so far). My only thing was that the "he didn't originate in a video game" reasoning was faulty and that he had reasoning to stay from my perspective. More so than most of the other characters that weren't Goroh and B. Shadow.



Now, I suggest before you make your response that you watch what you say. You're treading on thin ice as it is in regards to my patience.

If Rick Wheeler stays, I should ask for Vaati to be re-added to the chart, really.

Rick is just eligible at best. That isn't enough to keep him on the chart.

Rick may not be likely compared to the obese yet ripped sah-moo-rai and Batman on Steroids, but he's at least more believable than Vaati. Just saying.










@Everyone
On another note, to prevent further ******** about the other issue people have, ineligibility for removal will extend only towards characters that have been legitimately playable (so no "but Master Hand glitch!" por favor) at some point in Smash as well as characters that we KNOW were planned to be playable.

Which means, we have a new vote to make for previously ineligible characters.

Petey Piranha
Waluigi
Tingle
Ridley
Meta Ridley
Knuckle Joe

Go crazy. I will be honestly surprised if it isn't unanimous to remove Petey, Meta, and Joe and keep the others.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'm sorry if I struck a nerve...? You're no-nonsense about how others speak to you, no doubt. I'll dial back on being so one-track about this.

All I'm saying is that despite the fact that that Rick Wheeler is eligible, there's nothing to show that he has any chance of appearing in Smash Bros. For a small franchise to get a newcomer as it is, they either need to be high profile for that given series (Samurai Goroh, in this case) or have some sort of niche that immediately appeals to Sakurai as something no other character could pull off that he'd like to see as a playstyle, neither of which Rick Wheeler has the benefit of. If I'm not mistaken, that's what FalKoopa and CalcumG too see as Rick's main detracting features that hurt his chances of ever being playable, at least this time around. Is that logic at least acceptable, or am I still speaking bull****? If the latter, please tell me what I'm still missing in my stance about this.

And I'm not about to fend for Prince Fluff and Magolor. I don't see what comparison you're drawing to between Wheeler and Dark Matter, though. Not that either seem very likely in the first place. All of that is aside from the matter at hand, however.

Samurai Goroh is our next most likely F-Zero candidate, I don't think there are any disagreements there. The distance between Samurai Goroh's likelihood and Rick Wheeler's likelihood seems too abrupt to even consider Rick as remotely likely this time around. That said, my vote is to take off the entire F-Zero choices save Samurai Goroh, once we get around to actually doing that, I mean. I got too caught up in this to remember that we're nowhere near the time of F-Zero discussion.

Didn't this all start from the idea of discussion as to what dictates ineligibility? That seems reasonable enough to go back to. Since we're dismissing species-based Assist Trophies like Nintendog and Hammer Bros., shouldn't other species based characters without a notable single member to speak be removed as well? Fighter from Kid Icarus, T-Rex from Fossil Fighter, and several of the Pokemon immediately come to mind as examples we can toss out.
Edit: I think I may have misread. Disregard this entirely. Essentially what was said, remove Petey, Meta Ridley, and Knuckle Joe. Although Petey is playable in an assortment of Mario spin-offs, regardless, he still seems like a pipe-dream more than a possibility.

 

[Deleted member]

Calum's main point was the "non-game origin" deal.

But yes, that is better logic.

As for my point about Fluff, Magolor, and Dark Matter, it was that they have very little chance and have no reason to think they would be in the game, especially when we have Waddle Dee as pretty much "the" new Kirby option. So it was ironic that Wheeler "shouldn't even be an option" while those three were fine by your standards.

As for Black Shadow, you are aware he's among the higher end of Smash requests in Japan, right? I'd say he definitely has a right to stay. But that's for when we get to F-Zero.

So for the matter at hand,

Petey Piranha: 1
Meta Ridley: 1
Knuckle Joe: 1

 

[FalKoopa]

Since we're talking playable characters, I would agree to removing Petey Piranha and Meta Ridley.

I guess Knuckle Joe can be removed as his chances pale in comparison to Bandana Dee, but the fact that he was kind of the go-to Kirby character before Bandana Dee came along might count for something. You decide.

Waluigi, Tingle and Ridley should be kept for obvious reasons.

 

[Opossum]

I'd personally remove Petey, Meta Ridley, and Knuckle Joe.

 

[Deleted member]

Petey: 3
Meta Ridley: 3
Joe: 3

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

It's more of a question as to whether anyone is against removing them at this point. I think we're otherwise ready to move on.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'd say keep Meta Ridley, he could be a Final Smash or an alt costume. That's all.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'd personally remove Petey, Meta Ridley, and Knuckle Joe.

I'll second that.

 

[Deleted member]

Petey: 5
Meta Ridley: 4
Knuckle Joe: 5

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Remove Rick Wheeler

 

[Deleted member]

We're not on F-Zero yet.

I know you're trolling, but I'm starting to consider making the entire decisions myself (with feedback from AEM) if people continue trying to move on ahead.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

We're not on F-Zero yet.

I know you're trolling, but I'm starting to consider making the entire decisions myself (with feedback from AEM) if people continue trying to move on ahead.

Alright alright. In all seriousness, remove Petey, Meta Ridley, Knuckle Joe....I think that's it.

Is Rayquaze still ineligible?