Social Smash 4 Social Topic 2.0

[Soul.]

The greatest appeal to Super Smash Bros. is the character roster. While the roster is turning out to be made fairly well, there are still many fans disappointed in certain characters not quite making the cut as playable, but becoming assist trophies instead.

That's not happening. Assist Trophies will stay Assist Trophies. Yes, the most important thing in Smash Bros. is the character design roster, but doesn't the gameplay matter too?

 

[RamOne]

Spoiler

Remember, this is coming from a HUGE Shadow fan.

@ Jason the Yoshi actually using a GIF right? Am I dreaming here?

Spoiler

 

[TJ-Works]

You know, I don't get it why people get so pissed about Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario (should the leak be true), when they're just extra characters, two of them being particularly popular on their respective series' fanbases.

Did you know that in the time Sakurai made the six Melee clones, he would have made a single unique character instead if he wanted? But he opted to have a bigger roster instead.

This should speak volumes on how the clone hate is unwarranted.

I dunno, I think it all comes down to selfishness, really. Most people's ideals is that they want a large roster, but that they also want to see their favorite characters take up those rosters.

But then again, quality vs. quantity. Do people really want to see a roster taken up by clones? Would they care about seeing more unique characters in sacrifice of a smaller roster? There's probably different reasons boiled down between people.

Also, I dunno about Fire Emblem, but Dark Pit is essentially Evil Pit Clone with angst, and Dr. Mario is Mario with a bachelor degree.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I want Starfy really badly, but I'm not signing that petition.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

@ Jason the Yoshi actually using a GIF right? Am I dreaming here?

Spoiler

Well, both my name and the gif are Transformers related.

 

[Backgammon]

Would you steal a woman's purse?
Would you steal a car?
Piracy is stealing!

It's easy and cheap, that's why I love it.

 

[Deleted member]

That's not happening. Assist Trophies will stay Assist Trophies. Yes, the most important thing in Smash Bros. is the character design roster, but doesn't the gameplay matter too?

Yeah. Well you know, atleast some characters people'd like to see on Smash Bros. are now in the games, be it as stage hazards and Assist Trophies, and normal trophies.

 

[Soul.]

Yeah. Well you know, atleast some characters people'd like to see on Smash Bros. are now in the games, be it as stage hazards and Assist Trophies, and normal trophies.

Yeah, eh. Gameplay's important too. Seeing new characters is cool and all, but all that hype will be slowly disappearing once we know the full roster. Some people think speculation is boring.
But yes, at least some characters are in these games.
Then we can get to the competitive stuff...starting with stage legality.

 

[Frostwraith]

I dunno, I think it all comes down to selfishness, really. Most people's ideals is that they want a large roster, but that they also want to see their favorite characters take up those rosters.

But then again, quality vs. quantity. Do people really want to see a roster taken up by clones? Would they care about seeing more unique characters in sacrifice of a smaller roster? There's probably different reasons boiled down between people.

Also, I dunno about Fire Emblem, but Dark Pit is essentially Evil Pit Clone with angst, and Dr. Mario is Mario with a bachelor degree.

I've programmed stuff before and this applies to any scale project: you must have a plan for the project you pretend to develop.

I remember reading that Melee's planned roster didn't have the clones. Sakurai felt it was too small to have a significant impact. He had two options:
- Make more characters, but all based on existing characters.
- Entirely plan and design a new character.

Sakurai wanted the roster to be bigger and took the first option. It was also the safest from a programming standpoint, as altering already programmed stuff is less prone to cause bugs compared to making an entirely new thing.

Likewise, I think something like this happened with SSB4, but for different reasons, as the roster is quite big at this point. Maybe they met the planned objectives faster than expected? They could have had a little extra time to turn what could have been mere costume choices into easy-to-make characters.

How is this a bad thing?

Take Marth and Lucina. The tipper mechanic being removed does many changes to a play style. Marth has more control and is potentially stronger but hard to master and a tiny mistake can turn the tide of the game. Even very good players can make mistakes. Whereas Lucina may not be a strongest, but is a safer option. There's a trade-off here that adds to the game.

Assuming the leak as true, I don't know what differences would Dr. Mario and Dark Pit have from their counterparts, but I'd guess no one would lose anything and I don't believe it would be the source of a major balancing issue.

 

[Radical Bones]

I dunno, I think it all comes down to selfishness, really. Most people's ideals is that they want a large roster, but that they also want to see their favorite characters take up those rosters.

But then again, quality vs. quantity. Do people really want to see a roster taken up by clones? Would they care about seeing more unique characters in sacrifice of a smaller roster? There's probably different reasons boiled down between people.

Also, I dunno about Fire Emblem, but Dark Pit is essentially Evil Pit Clone with angst, and Dr. Mario is Mario with a bachelor degree.

I like clones. I'm sure people would rather see their favourite character in as a clone rather than not at all.

I think clones get blamed for character cuts - or they get compared to a 'better' character who could be in. As @ Frostwraith pointed out, it only takes one sixth of the time to implement the clone character... and that was in Melee when there was only 25 characters to balance against. Even so, I'd rather have six clones who play differently to their original counterpart than one character.

As you said, that's just my opinion. I don't think people only choose quality or quantity - I'm a mix of both. Obviously I don't want every character to have a clone, but the amount we have in SSB4 (considering the leak) is not that outrageous.

Dr. Mario is getting a surprisingly large amount of hate. It's a Melee throwback, and until he was revealed, I assumed everyone liked him. He was way better than Mario in Melee. Dark Pit I can understand though. If Dark Pit as a clone gets in over someone like Dixie as a clone, I'll be pretty annoyed. Even having played KI:U, I don't see Pitto's appeal. He was actually pretty annoying.

 

[Starcutter]

DAMMIT HOW DID THIS SOMEHOW COME BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE LEAK?


That's it. Time-out, all of you.

Spoiler

Oh, if we are talking about clones, I wouldn't mind as long as there's a couple of clones I would like, like Dixie, for example.

 

[Deleted member]

Wasn't Dixie going to appear in Brawl alongside Diddy to form some kind of tag-team character a la Ice Climbers? I'm aware she got scrapped, but yeah.

 

[Kenith]

A petition to make Assist Trophies playable DLC in Smash Bros? This is the funniest **** that I've ever seen in my life.
https://www.change.org/p/nintendo-a...s-in-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-and-3ds#share

Me before August 21st: Assist Trophies can stay Assist Trophies. They clearly aren't worthy.
Me after August 21st: Sakurai HEY SAKURAI PLZ PLZ DLC PLAYABLE ASSIST TROPHIES PLZ

 

[Frostwraith]

I actually prefer to see people hating on Lucina and Dark Pit for their characters than bashing on them because clones and roster slots.

Perhaps I'm not being quite tolerant regarding those who don't have a very good idea of what's going on during development, but it just irks me when people seriously think that unique characters should have been instead of clones. Especially considering the different circumstances surrounding the clones' inclusion.

There's a whole lot of planning and brainstorming processes that happen before actual development and that people are often unaware of their existence.

The current official roster you see now for this game? It was planned right at the beginning of the development circa 2012 (except Lucina). Sakurai even mentioned that he chose and designed Greninja just by looking at his designs for Pokémon X/Y that was in development, completely unaware of what would be the character's popularity. He literally played a guessing game.

 

[Croph]

You know, I don't get it why people get so pissed about Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario (should the leak be true), when they're just extra characters, two of them being particularly popular on their respective series' fanbases.

Did you know that in the time Sakurai made the six Melee clones, he would have made a single unique character instead if he wanted? But he opted to have a bigger roster instead.

This should speak volumes on how the clone hate is unwarranted.

The only problem I have is that I'd prefer if other series gets clones before Mario and KI (especially KI). And I'm iffy on Dark Pit, especially if Blood Falcon can still be a palette swap. Now, there may be more clones, so we'll just have to wait and see... But yeah, it isn't unusual for fighting games to have clone fighters -- takes less development time, yeah?

 

[TJ-Works]

I like clones. I'm sure people would rather see their favourite character in as a clone rather than not at all.

I think clones get blamed for character cuts - or they get compared to a 'better' character who could be in. As @ Frostwraith pointed out, it only takes one sixth of the time to implement the clone character... and that was in Melee when there was only 25 characters to balance against. Even so, I'd rather have six clones who play differently to their original counterpart than one character.

As you said, that's just my opinion. I don't think people only choose quality or quantity - I'm a mix of both. Obviously I don't want every character to have a clone, but the amount we have in SSB4 (considering the leak) is not that outrageous.

Dr. Mario is getting a surprisingly large amount of hate. It's a Melee throwback, and until he was revealed, I assumed everyone liked him. He was way better than Mario in Melee. Dark Pit I can understand though. If Dark Pit as a clone gets in over someone like Dixie as a clone, I'll be pretty annoyed. Even having played KI:U, I don't see Pitto's appeal. He was actually pretty annoying.

He got the most popular song as his theme, that's what. xD

But yeh, I'm not really sure what to believe in, myself. I don't really like the concept of "clone" characters to an extent, but I do understand why they're implicated. It's the same as in Street Fighter with all the Shoto characters; they have different styles and variations to each other, they save development time, and they can charge you DLC money for it. make the game more accessible.

With Smash, however, I think it's harder to make clone characters distinctive without feeling like cop outs, if only because playstyle differences are less obvious, compared to Street Fighter.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

These fools are seriously acting like this will be the last Smash game we'll ever have and we all know damn well that Smash will be forever milked (like Mario and Pokemon) since it's a cash cow. Besides, the average gamer is 30 years old according to statistics and most of us would be close enough or a little less by time the next game comes out anyway.

 

[Pazzo.]

I have returned... unfortunately, there are no good gifs for that. XD

 

[Soul.]

I don't know why do people complain about clones. They are played differently compared to the original character. If they are played differently, that's enough for the clone character to be in the game.
Clones are not a waste of character slots if they play differently. lol

 

[Frostwraith]

The only problem I have is that I'd prefer if other series gets clones before Mario and KI (especially KI). And I'm iffy on Dark Pit, especially if Blood Falcon can still be a palette swap. Now, there may be more clones, so we'll just have to wait and see... But yeah, it isn't unusual for fighting games to have clone fighters -- takes less development time, yeah?

Dark Pit would even take less effort than Lucina, given he shares the same model with Pit. Lucina had to be given a new model that has quite a few differences from Marth.

Dark Pit appearing as a clone in this game doesn't surprise me one bit, especially after Lucina's reveal.

These fools are seriously acting like this will be the last Smash game we'll ever have and we all know damn well that Smash will be forever milked (like Mario and Pokemon) since it's a cash cow. Besides, the average gamer is 30 years old according to statistics and most of us would be close enough or a little less by time the next game comes out anyway.

Like Brawl was going to be the last Smash game? Oh wait...

Even Kojima has played this card several times with MGS.

Sakurai has admitted he likes SSB quite a lot.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Concerning clones, I don't necessarily dislike them for being clones as long as they're a seperate, but similar character in a way that makes canonical sense, such as Falco, Lucina, or Toon Link (who is indeed a different person than TP Link).

Pitoo also falls into this category, but my grievance with Dark Pit stems more from that fact that I feel Sakuari is biased towards KI Uprising. A similar semiclone like Dixie from Diddy or Ridley from Charizard wouldn't bother me as much because I feel a third DK/Metroid rep is far more justified than a KI one, even if it is a clone.

I'm more irked by the fact that a character with a simple wardrobe change can fight themself while taking up a seperate roster spot (ike Dr. Mario or ZSS (even though she isn't a clone).

It just seems weird to me.


And then there's bull like Falcondorf where the character has plenty of independent moveset potential.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know why do people complain about clones. They are played differently compared to the original character. If they are played differently, that's enough for the clone character to be in the game.
Clones are not a waste of character slots if they play differently. lol

Atleast it's not MK8's roster.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Atleast it's not MK8's roster.

This became ironic since Bowser Jr. might have 7 Koopaling skins based on a certain leak stating that he would be in his Koopa Clown Car.

 

[Backgammon]

On clones:

My problem with clones is when they're not different enough from the original character to warrant a change OR the character they chose to clone them from makes no sense whatsoever (Falcondorf).

There are a few clones that they could do cross-series with, an example I used in the Project M Clone Engine Thread was Ashley from WarioWare. For her, I'd use Zelda as a base, but change characteristics of the moves.

Pittoo is a character I'd have a problem with, personally. Not just because he's a clone, I'm not that shallow, but because his character is literally Pit with an attitude problem. That's what he is in-game and the only difference between the two in the games is that Dark Pit can use an Air Battle special attack on the ground. That is literally it.

I don't have a problem with Dr.Mario because while he may be a very cloney-clone, the changes to hischaracteristics that were made in Melee were enough to severely differentiate his fighting style.

 

[Gunla]

Semi-Clones are good. Like Lucina.

Full on, 1:1 clones are lazy and bad imo.

Doc is a great clone because he's similar, but has stuff that makes him feel marginally different. He also has Pills and the Tornado.

 

[Soul.]

Concerning clones, I don't necessarily dislike them for being clones as long as they're a seperate, but similar character in a way that makes canonical sense, such as Falco, Lucina, Pitoo or Toon Link (who is indeed a different person than TP Link).

I'm more irked by the fact that a character with a simple wardrobe change can fight themself while taking up a seperate roster spot (ike Dr. Mario or ZSS (even though she isn't a clone).

It just seems weird to me.


And then there's bull like Falcondorf. Don't get me started on Falcondorf!

If I recall correctly, I've heard people saying that they didn't want Toon Link because he was just a speedier Link. Brawl happened; Toon Link plays differently. He came back to Smash 4.

Atleast it's not MK8's roster.

Wait, does that mean Mario Kart has more clones than Smash?

 

[Deleted member]

This became ironic since Bowser Jr. might have 7 Koopaling skins based on a certain leak stating that he would be in his Koopa Clown Car.

Bowser Jr... having Koopaling alternate costumes? Well, that's weird, but oh well, we'll find out if he's really in the game or not. Based on the artwork, he's in his Koopa Clown Car, so you're right.

 

[RamOne]

Semi-Clones are good. Like Lucina.

Full on, 1:1 clones are lazy and bad imo.

Isn't Lucina pretty much a 1:1 clone as well? IIRC the only thing she differs with Marth is she doesn't have the tip.

 

[Soul.]

Isn't Lucina pretty much a 1:1 clone as well? IIRC the only thing she differs with Marth is she doesn't have the tip.

Her sword deals equal damage. I guess that's another thing...along with the "no tip sweetspot".

 

[Gunla]

Isn't Lucina pretty much a 1:1 clone as well? IIRC the only thing she differs with Marth is she doesn't have the tip.

She has, like Doc, different properties. Her Up Special, for instance, is more horizontal, she's faster, she also has the tip difference.

Similar, yet different where it counts, imo.

 

[TJ-Works]

Wait, does that mean Mario Kart has more clones than Smash?

MK8 alone probably has the worst MK character roster to date.


Koopaling's are the only decent newcomers, but only the ones you actually like as opposed to all 7. Then we got Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach. Why? I dunno.

There is also issues with choosing unpopular characters over popular characters. E.g. there's no Diddy Kong or Bowser Jr. But there's Lakitu and Toadette! ...who asked for them?

Also, the baby characters feel like they're saturating the roster.

It's a shame, I feel MK8 has the best 32 tracks, but the 2nd worst character roster. (MK7 being my least favorite.)

 

[Sehnsucht]

Similar, yet different where it counts, imo.

So they both have apple bottoms, but Marth is a bit perkier?

 

[Superyoshiom]

I sense a lot of negativity in this sanction.

Can I be of assistance? Maybe some herbal tea and aromatic candles? Shall I channel my positive energy to everyone?

Soul Eater was a decent series, albeit with a stupid ending.

 

[Radical Bones]

MK8 alone probably has the worst MK character roster to date.


Koopaling's are the only decent newcomers, but only the ones you actually like as opposed to all 7. Then we got Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach. Why? I dunno.

There is also issues with choosing unpopular characters over popular characters. E.g. there's no Diddy Kong or Bowser Jr. But there's Lakitu and Toadette! ...who asked for them?

Also, the baby characters feel like they're saturating the roster.

It's a shame, I feel MK8 has the best 32 tracks, but the 2nd worst character roster. (MK7 being my least favorite.)

I agree with everything you said, but Lakitu is the best MK character ever.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh my god. I just spent about an hour running around like a moron in the Eryth Sea trying to find my way to the High Entia Tomb, only look at the map to find out that the teleporter to the tomb is RIGHT NEXT TO THE ENTRANCE TO THE CITY.

*sigh* oh well. I leveled up twice so it wasn't a total waste...

 

[Sehnsucht]

Oh my god. I just spent about an hour running around like a moron in the Eryth Sea trying to find my way to the High Entia Tomb, only look at the map to find out that the teleporter to the tomb is RIGHT NEXT TO THE ENTRANCE TO THE CITY.

*sigh* oh well. I leveled up twice so it wasn't a total waste...

I see you lost your Premium.

If you're experiencing Premium Dysfunction, you might want to try Cialis or Viagra.

 

[RamOne]

She has, like Doc, different properties. Her Up Special, for instance, is more horizontal, she's faster, she also has the tip.

Similar, yet different where it counts, imo.

I see. Never was that interested in Lucina. Thanks for the explanation.

MK8 alone probably has the worst MK character roster to date.


Koopaling's are the only decent newcomers, but only the ones you actually like as opposed to all 7. Then we got Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach. Why? I dunno.

There is also issues with choosing unpopular characters over popular characters. E.g. there's no Diddy Kong or Bowser Jr. But there's Lakitu and Toadette! ...who asked for them?

Also, the baby characters feel like they're saturating the roster.

It's a shame, I feel MK8 has the best 32 tracks, but the 2nd worst character roster. (MK7 being my least favorite.)

7 had Metal Mario and Honey Queen. The rest of the roster was great.
8 has Baby Peach and Baby Daisy, PGP and Metal Mario again. Also lack of console-MK characters like Junior and Diddy. I would say 8 has the worst roster.
And N64 Toad's Turnpike is the worst retro track ever. Even worse than N64 Frappe Snowland.

 

[TJ-Works]

Soul Eater was a decent series, albeit with a stupid ending.

Read the manga. The anime had to derail the storyline when it caught up.

The manga is more enjoyable and extends the story longer., even if they're still pictures. Although its ending is less stupid and more whaaaaa? Still recommend. 9/10.

 

[praline]

Roy looks way out of place up at the top of the page. lol

 

[Soul.]

MK8 alone probably has the worst MK character roster to date.


Koopaling's are the only decent newcomers, but only the ones you actually like as opposed to all 7. Then we got Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach. Why? I dunno.

There is also issues with choosing unpopular characters over popular characters. E.g. there's no Diddy Kong or Bowser Jr. But there's Lakitu and Toadette! ...who asked for them?

Also, the baby characters feel like they're saturating the roster.

It's a shame, I feel MK8 has the best 32 tracks, but the 2nd worst character roster. (MK7 being my least favorite.)

Pink Gold Peach. Lmao, next Mario Kart game will have a new character: Silver Luigi from New Super Mario Bros. 2.
If Funky Kong was in MK8, almost everyone would use him in online play along with Metal Mario. Clan "wars" will have a lot of players using them if Funky Kong was in the game, but Metal Mario replaced him starting from Mario Kart 7.
It's sad Diddy is not there. Why did they remove him is beyond me. I mean, like, at least he's in Smash Bros.