Smash 4 input lag HDTV

[Ericoscarj]

Will there be input delay in smash 4 like there is in Brawl on a HDTV?

 

[Tristan_win]

No the Wii U are made for modern tv's.

 

[EddyBearr]

Smash 4 (and virtual console melee) mean no more CRTs!!!

 

[TheGoldMan]

Why would there be input lag if the game is in HD..

 

[GFooChombey]

Smash 4 (and virtual console melee) mean no more CRTs!!!

Since NES Remix 1 lags, Melee probably still would even on VC.

 

[Celestis]

Yes there will be input lag. HDTVs simply has input lag. Its something that just has not been fixed yet. its just like any other system on an HDTV. Wii U is no different.
Until a company creates and affordable HDTV with no input lag, competitive play will continue to use CRT.

 

[Kevandre]

You guys say these things but it's not a thing I've ever noticed.. I've actually found it to be the opposite...

 

[Celestis]

You guys say these things but it's not a thing I've ever noticed.. I've actually found it to be the opposite...

On some HDTVs, lag is not something you really notice unless you are playing at a high level and have played on CRT before. Some HDTVs have a petty decent input lag and can be not so bad. But I play on CRT as often as I can, so when I use HD, I defiantly notice the lag and it throws me off greatly even if it is small.

 

[SNC Genesis]

lag will just be another john to add to the list

 

[Celestis]

Its already a john, and the reason why CRT is used.

 

[Kuraudo]

For right now, the standards will most likely be the BenQ monitor used by MLG and the ASUS VH236/238 series used during EVO. Those are used competitively and harbor next to no input lag. CRTs are certainly a viable choice, but I say moving into (finally) an HD era, we can finally take advantage of good looking streaming, the full visuals of the game we're competing in, and more.

Games like Mario Kart 8 have no input delay on my monitors, and if the tradition carries over into Smash U, it's going to be glorious.

 

[Celestis]

Well Mario kart does not require nearly as much reaction time as a Smash game, so that does not really translate well. You would not even be able to detect the input delay on a monitor for Mario kart. Smash uses frame perfect precision, so it will be noticed.

 

[Heefe]

Games like Mario Kart 8 have no input delay on my monitors, and if the tradition carries over into Smash U, it's going to be glorious.

LOL, seriously MK 8 is so damn slow. No need for fast reaction. Smash is another story but I think the benq, asus monitors will be fine. Got the benq one for myself und I'm very happy with it. Smash Melee and PM runs just fine on it.

 

[Celestis]

Another problem with HD is, well for competitive play. HD TVs vary all the time. So many different input lags where as CTR is the most consistent. Its really hard for players to practice when at home there TV might have a different timing then the ones used at the event. This would be such a problem.
We would be hearing input johns left and right if they used HD.

 

[Kuraudo]

And yet we hear none of those input johns at major events for fighting games that all use similar monitors.

A lot of these fighting games are incredibly precise, Street Fighter is another one of those examples. Nobody's complaining about the 1-frame links that we see.

Both CRT TVs and HD Monitors will be viable choices, but the problem will come in where players may prefer HD monitors over the old, boxed look of 4:3 resolution monitors that may change the field of the gameplay at times.

I can tell you right now that we've even got one monitor we use and set up for both Melee and Project M and there is no input delay either. So long as tournament organizers are all on the same page I don't see Smash for Wii U running on HD monitors being a problem.

 

[DraginHikari]

The problem is the number of available CRT TVs are going to continue to decline to the point where they are going to get harder to find when they start breaking down. It's a shift that is going to have to happen at some point.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Yes there will be input lag. HDTVs simply has input lag. Its something that just has not been fixed yet. its just like any other system on an HDTV. Wii U is no different.
Until a company creates and affordable HDTV with no input lag, competitive play will continue to use CRT.

You have absolutely no proof of this.

Lag only happens when the system is not designed around HD input (like the Gamecube or the Wii). With the Wii U being native to HD, that eliminates the issues altogether.

Similarly to other games that have been on HD compatible systems for a while now like UMVC3 and SF4, HD TV's can now be used without worry of input delay being a factor in anything.

Unless you're going to argue that UMVC3 and SF4 players are less worried about input delay, which would be a ridiculous assertion as arguably it matters to them more given the stronger prize pool history.

 

[Celestis]

I have HD consoles. I have a ps3 and 360 and they lag just as much as my Wii does. Its a nice way to think, but unfortunately be HDMI input or not, they still lag. HDTVs are just slow to respond. Im sure it will one day be fixed, but its still a problem right now. Its why some TVs have a game mode to try and minimize as much input lag as they can. If HD systems didn't lag, this kind of feature would not be needed =/.

My friends TV has almost a half second delay when we play Halo at his house. Its so bad that I bring my own TV over just so we can play without it. Yes, we are using HDMI with propper setting, and it still lags. So I do have proof.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have HD consoles. I have a ps3 and 360 and they lag just as much as my Wii does. Its a nice way to think, but unfortunately be HDMI input or not, they still lag. HDTVs are just slow to respond. Im sure it will one day be fixed, but its still a problem right now. Its why some TVs have a game mode to try and minimize as much input lag as they can. If HD systems didn't lag, this kind of feature would not be needed =/.

My friends TV has almost a half second delay when we play Halo at his house. Its so bad that I bring my own TV over just so we can play without it. Yes, we are using HDMI with propper setting, and it still lags. So I do have proof.

I don't see any, I just see you telling stories.

Sounds to me more like you have a bad TV.

 

[Coonce]

Input lag is HDTV dependent, not console dependent. Just by doing a quick Google search, I found this.

http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/

It's a pretty good breakdown of what input lag is. So the short answer is yes. But you can always get a better TV. That site has a database of several TVs and their input lag.

 

[Luigi player]

Good thing you don't need a monitor to play the 3DS version... bad thing is it doesn't change much since you'll have to play wirelessly against an opponent as well so there will be some sort of lag too.

One thing I have to say is that CRTs also have different kinds of lag. Don't know why, but that's how it is.

 

[Celestis]

I don't see any, I just see you telling stories.

Sounds to me more like you have a bad TV.

Exactly. HDTV varies. Just supports my point. Some have lag, some have minimal lag. To many differences for consistent play. We would not have unplugged and put away a TV if not for the terrible lag.

Think about this. Why would guitar hero and Rock band have HDTV calibration settings if the HD consoles had no lag? Hm? Its cause they do have lag and developers know that. The guitar games need proper timing so they put in a build in buffer to make up for the input lag. See, even more proof. And you can see that proof for yourself.

 

[Problem2]

It won't be the same situation as with the Wii and Gamecube where upscaling is mandatory for an HDTV and lag will always be produced.

In this situation, we have the possibility of avoiding lag, but some HDTVs are better than others. Some simply will always lag. It's going to be about finding the right TV and trusting the community be responsible about bringing good HDTVs to the events.

 

[Kuraudo]

Zipzo, it's not true that playing an HD console doesn't = no lag. However, HD consoles do share a much quicker response time than older consoles do, which is why generally speaking, you see Wii and PS2 suffering from some serious lag on controls.

THAT being said, however, there are a lot of TVs now that actually properly monitor what the input response is. There is a certain amount of input lag that's monitored where if it's low enough it actually doesn't properly register with our eyes and fingers. You gotta get the right kind of HDTV if you want the best experience with no noted lag that'll ensure you stay solid. For example? A lot of the Sony Bravia series is known for their input delay being INCREDIBLY low, to the point that for fighters/shooters/etc., you don't notice. But some Samsungs and others even with Gaming Mode, still aren't as good.

ASUS and BenQ have two monitor set-ups that are used that by extension, WE can also use for our own tournaments too. It's gonna be a good step forward for gamers when we finally step into the HD era.

 

[CommanderRin]

Or we can just use the monitors some people have pointed out already.

I mean, that Asus VH 236 only costs around ~$150 on Amazon.ca

I'm sure monitors could become mainstream fairly quickly if enough people decide to ditch CRTs

(And monitors are much easier to carry around)

 

[Pyra]

Think about this. Why would guitar hero and Rock band have HDTV calibration settings if the HD consoles had no lag? Hm? Its cause they do have lag and developers know that. The guitar games need proper timing so they put in a build in buffer to make up for the input lag. See, even more proof. And you can see that proof for yourself.

The latest Rock Band game came out in 2010. I see your point, and it is valid, but that's a relatively dated example when it comes to technology like monitors and such.

A lot can happen in 4 years :U

 

[Celestis]

The latest Rock Band game came out in 2010. I see your point, and it is valid, but that's a relatively dated example when it comes to technology like monitors and such.

A lot can happen in 4 years :U

Granted, it is true. But the fact is HDTV did need a calibration. Yes, they have improved, but the lag is still there. This entire thing is so very TV dependent. Even the best HDTVs still suffer small amounts of lag and on a game like smash, it does make a difference. I mean, I wouldn't be here saying other wise if it didn't. I would love to play my games in HD with no problems. Who wouldn't?

 

[TheGoldMan]

Yes there will be input lag. HDTVs simply has input lag. Its something that just has not been fixed yet. its just like any other system on an HDTV. Wii U is no different.
Until a company creates and affordable HDTV with no input lag, competitive play will continue to use CRT.

Wii U won't work without the HDMI port in.

 

[Celestis]

Wii U won't work without the HDMI port in.

Yes it will. I use my Wii U on both HDMI and the basic AV cables. They just don't come with AV cables. All I did was take the ones from me Wii. Same fit.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Granted, it is true. But the fact is HDTV did need a calibration. Yes, they have improved, but the lag is still there. This entire thing is so very TV dependent. Even the best HDTVs still suffer small amounts of lag and on a game like smash, it does make a difference. I mean, I wouldn't be here saying other wise if it didn't. I would love to play my games in HD with no problems. Who wouldn't?

Buy a gaming monitor.

 

[Celestis]

Once again, Input lag varies depending on the monitor. They still have a degree of input lag and each brand and model has a different level of it.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Once again, Input lag varies depending on the monitor. They still have a degree of input lag and each brand and model has a different level of it.

The popular model used at EVO has 1 ms delay with 144hz refresh rate. That is demonstrably unnoticeable to the human senses and has a nil effect on gameplay. Fighting game players have been using these for years without issue, Smash won't be any different.

It's like arguing that there's an ant in the middle of the road blocking your car.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Yes it will. I use my Wii U on both HDMI and the basic AV cables. They just don't come with AV cables. All I did was take the ones from me Wii. Same fit.

This. I have to use my Wii's AV cables with my Wii U to record Wii U games with my Dazzle. The Wii U even has a "non-HDMI" setting.

 

[Z1GMA]

Yes there will be input lag. HDTVs simply has input lag. Its something that just has not been fixed yet. its just like any other system on an HDTV. Wii U is no different.
Until a company creates and affordable HDTV with no input lag, competitive play will continue to use CRT.

This is true. Listen to this guy.

 

[Yakko93]

I believe so, but my HDTV never lagged. Out of curiosity, how will SDTVS lag? There are people who still own them.

 

[Chiroz]

As I have said many times before there are reasons for lag in an HDTV.

@ Celestis you are living in the past man, allow me to explain what little I know (I don't know much, but what I will say are facts that I know for sure).



Visual lag is caused by conversion. This conversion can be upscaling or downscaling. For example, let's say if a Console, like say the 360 isn't made for 1080p, and you tried to output a 1080p picture on your game running on the 360, then the console needs to perform an algorithm which transforms the resolution the game "wants" to output to the console's "known" resolution output. Be it by blurring the picture, joining pixels together or creating new pixels with in-between colors, this is a mathematical formula which takes time. If a console on the other hand has an HD output and is trying to connect to a CRT it will need to downscale, which is also another mathematical formula which takes time and lags. (Unless the console has a native <480 output, which as of now only the Wii U does I believe. What this means is that a PS4 or Xbox One is literally unsuable on a CRT without lag, unless they also have component cables I am not aware of).

Now the console has given the desired output, but theres a problem, TV's are set to a specific output. So what if the TV outputs at 1080p but your game is only sending 720p? Well, the TV has a small processor inside it so that it too can do a mathematical formula! This will also take time, and just like the console, there is upscaling and downscaling of resolution.




Long story short?

The Wii U already has a native 1080p output and Smash 4 is already confirmed to be 1080p resolution so there will be 0 conversion from the game to Wii U HDMI cable. We don't know if Smash 4 has a 480p resolution, which might mean that converting the image to Component Cable output in order to connect it to a CRT might actually lag.

Basically as long as you get a TV which has an HDMI input and has a native 1080p output, meaning that it does not convert 1080p images it receives, then there will be 0 lag. Note that these TV's aren't expensive at all. I bought my 42' TV 2 years ago and it cost me 600 dollars (it was expensive back then). My mom also has a 42' TV bought about 6 years ago that cost her around 500-700. I am willing to bet a 20' version of one of these same TVs nowadays must be pretty cheap.




Yes, I know cables such as HDMI cables lag a bit more (about 2-3 times more) than component cable because there is much more information to send and obviously coloring 2 million pixels (1920*1080) takes 6 times as much as coloring 350 thousand. But the lag created from the coloring the screen and the cable used is much less than a frame, completely negligible and completely unnoticeable to the game logic, let alone the human brain. The lag you notice from HDTV's is always coming from the conversion algorithms.

Take this from a guy who actually wrote a renderer from scratch which could upscale and downscale resolutions and had to write the actual formula for all of it and noticed how using different approaches made the renderer lag more or lag less (which is why there are "varying" lags depending on HDTV, although that could also be because of the quality of the processor they might use to render).




This is the reason, for example, that I cannot play Brawl or Project M on my HDTV without noticeable lag (it does not have native 480p output unfortunately, which means my TV needs to convert the 480p image it gets from the Wii U into its own HD resolution). But I can play all of my Wii U games such as Mario Kart, Mario 3D World, etc. without any lag at all (because they already output at 720p, which my HDTV has native output for, requiring no conversion).

 

[kazrisk]

Long story short, embrace the HD era with Smash 4. Finally beautiful Smash streams. Makes my eyes salivate.

 

[TimeSmash]

It won't be the same situation as with the Wii and Gamecube where upscaling is mandatory for an HDTV and lag will always be produced.

In this situation, we have the possibility of avoiding lag, but some HDTVs are better than others. Some simply will always lag. It's going to be about finding the right TV and trusting the community be responsible about bringing good HDTVs to the events.

This. It'd be great and really helpful to the community if we can find a good, hopefully cheap HDTV that has little to no lag associated with it.

@ Chiroz , you seem to know a lot about this. I only skimmed your post but it seems to make sense. Do you know of any HDTVs fitting the bill i described above?

 

[kazrisk]

@ Chiroz , you seem to know a lot about this. I only skimmed your post but it seems to make sense. Do you know of any HDTVs fitting the bill i described above?

From what I gathered reading his whole post, it was my understanding that all HDTVs will have no lag with HDMI and Smash 4 since there is no conversion.

 

[TimeSmash]

From what I gathered reading his whole post, it was my understanding that all HDTVs will have no lag with HDMI and Smash 4 since there is no conversion.

Oh, doi. I just reread it again. So as long as you get one that is 1080p, you're all set?

I am curious as to the brand name of said cheap TVs, however. So this post does something besides the fact to prove I'm not stupid haha