Smash 4 from a Brawl player's perspective OR the best thread on Smashboards

[infiniteV115]

Actually I guess I'm more or less meh about it. I don't really mind all the CGs in Brawl that revolve around knockback that doesn't send you into tumble.

 

[BlueXenon]

I really want Smash 4 to be easier for players who don't have a lot of patience. In brawl, characters like Falco, Toon Link, Ice Climbers, Wario make the game not fun for people who are impatient (like me).

I also think that if any character is designed to be a slow but hard hitting character, they should have at least 2 moves that are quick and have some invincibility (maybe bowsers up b in brawl is a good example, but idk if it has invincibility).
I replied to my post instead of editing it. I keep doing that.

 

[Big-Cat]

If you're not patient enough, that's your problem more than anyone else's.

 

[FalKoopa]

Patience is a virtue. Try not to lose it.

 

[darth meanie]

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[Vkrm]

I'm gonna start out calling people who start their post with "don't want melee 2.0" and then list a bunch of gameplay changes that bring smash back towards melee physics. Just so we're clear melee is a good game, arguably the best version of smash. What is wrong with wanting a game that's similar?

 

[Ziodyne]

Because we have Melee and already simply enjoy Melee for what it is? I mean really, I have the gameplay and aesthetics I like the most of the three games and plenty of players to play on top of that, so I don't really see the need for another game to be like Melee. In fact, I don't want the new game to be "Melee 2.0" so everyone keeps playing Melee lol. Don't have time or money for a new smash game to buy, play, and learn to get competitive at lol

 

[Vkrm]

Not a 1 to 1 clone. Let me ask why do you think pm is so successful? It's basically melee but greatly expanded. Thats what we wanted from brawl was it not?

 

[---]

Cool thread, definitely the best gameplay thread (certainly the most level headed) I've seen in these parts of the board.

arguably the best version of smash.

I think you've already answered your question. People have differing opinions.

 

[Vkrm]

What I'm getting at is that there are a lot of people who oppose good solutions to brawls problems just because said solutions are reminiscent of melee.

 

[Ziodyne]

Not a 1 to 1 clone. Let me ask why do you think pm is so successful? It's basically melee but greatly expanded. Thats what we wanted from brawl was it not?

p:m is a worthy sequel to melee for anyone who's a fan of melee's physics vs. brawl's. i find it's garnered more hype and following in the melee community than the brawl one though, and the community for it is still smaller than melee's. p:m has room to grow, and for this reason, i feel like it's even better that a new game boasting a melee-esque engine not be released; we already have a relatively young sequel that has yet to be fully explored (or even developed, for that matter).

i dunno though, i think that p:m was built on an underlying notion that sakurai is never going to develop a game with the melee engine again, and honestly i can't see sakurai going through with it either.

so i guess overall, i just feel the melee-people have enough on their plates as far as melee goes. in that sense, the only thing i would really hope for in terms of smash 4 would be that it is even easier to hack than brawl lol

EDIT: @vkrm some people are interested in seeing new solutions to old problems. for someone like me, who is so wholly devoted to the older smash game that any attempt to recreate it would be met with complete indifference, seeing something new would at least be refreshing for the first week or two it's out lol

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm gonna start out calling people who start their post with "don't want melee 2.0" and then list a bunch of gameplay changes that bring smash back towards melee physics. Just so we're clear melee is a good game, arguably the best version of smash. What is wrong with wanting a game that's similar?

Well, we obviously can retread old ground all the time and just do some tweaking here and there. You gotta be bold and daring with the mechanics (and make sure they're actually sound for once).

 

[DakotaBonez]

I thought for the longest time that brawl added the angling of side attacks by tilting the analog stick. But I recently played melee and a lot of characters could angle their side attacks.So that narrows down what Brawl added being backward ledge grabbing and footstool jumping and of course, the Final Smash.
The whole angling thing is kinda useless except in Project M. For instance Ganon's side attack (the SPARTA KICK) can be changed to a low stomp for getting people on ledges, or a high kick perfect for hitting jumping opponents.
My point is, I'd like the next Smash to really expand upon these side angled attacks, take the route of project M and make em completely different moves.

I'm also a fan of backward ledge grabbing, it grants better ability to jump off the side and meteor smash the opponent.
Footstool jumping is just fun and a more humiliating way of sending opponents to their doom.
I don't care if some characters are able to cling to walls like in brawl or if melee air dodges return.

 

[---]

What I'm getting at is that there are a lot of people who oppose good solutions to brawls problems just because said solutions are reminiscent of melee.

Seeing as most people want a mix of Melee and Brawl I see your point. Probably has to do with people not understanding/dumb as well as some ideas suggested coming off a tad too extreme/unrealistic for their tastes. Not really a bad thing, people have a right to their own opinions, just gotta post your idea and hope for the best.

 

[~automatic]

Easily the best thread on the Smash 4 boards.

Kudos to you Supermodel!

 

[TreK]

I'll give another brawl player's opinion on a brawl player's opinion. Should be fun :V

1. Tripping needs to go. Yup.
2. Characters need to die earlier. Yup.

• Stage barriers are too ****ing big. That's the most obvious way of solving this. And that's something they should do.
• Brawl stale moves are ********. Meh. It stops bread and butter moves like Marth's fair from also being killmoves, so it does its job. If anything, I would like move specific decay, so killmoves would decay slower and projectiles would decay faster in example.
• No airdodging until hitstun ends, please. I'm fine with Brawl's airdodge. If anything, add landing lag to it if it was performed during hitstun. Kinda like BullS***Lag, except legitimate.
• Keep brawl airdodges. Yup. The only thing I miss from Melee's is the Waveland, but in Brawl we now have the Platform Cancel. There needs to be some kind of technique like that, it just fastens the game automatically at high levels.
• Kill momentum cancelling. NO. The ability to increase survivability with skill should stay. The survivability itself should lower, but insane DI and momentum cancels are hype. See APEX 2k13 GFs... Insane DI should allow you to survive to 130, not 180, but I still want to be amazed by DIs. I'd even go as far as saying that the momentum penalty on specials should go to give more options.

3. Shield pressure, please. Yaaay. Weaker shield (but more easily tilted), and move specific shieldstun.
4. Remove tether grabs. Having an alternative is a cool idea. Thumbs up to you guy.
5. Shielding should need to be timed. Nah. If I'm pressing the shield button, I want to be shielding stuff. More shieldstun already means that powershielding is going to be that much more rewarding (Luigi-like rewarding, it gives him the ability to upB MK's tornado rofl)
6. Make sure your **** works. Yup.
7. And finally, DI during pre-tumble hitstun. IDK what is this about. Please give an example :V

If I may add my own remarks :
-A stage with an item dispenser. Where the only variable is the nature of the item. Not the position, not the timing. Just its nature. It's the only way items are going to be used in tournaments, ever. It's not like we don't want to use them, it's that we can't. In example, Balanced Brawl had the wifi training room as a starter. The sandbag would respawn whenever it died, at the center of the stage. That was one ****ing good stage.
-Ledges should work a bit like tethers : if you hog three times without landing, you have no invincibility frames. The magnet is fine.
-More moves. More killmoves, especially (air smashes ? It would make sense in an aerial based fighter...). We can handle keeping track of 6-8 killmoves, don't worry, Sakurai. Worry about all those newbies that can't land a single time Sonic's fsmash. That is much more worry-worthy. Having less killing power is a cool flavor (provided you do not mess up the advantages that counterbalance it like you did with Pit), having less killmoves is a bad one.

 

[GP&B]

The stale move system is terrible in Brawl mainly because Brawl added knockback staling on top of damage staling. Considering that damage scaling already inherently reduces the knockback dealt by the move, knockback staling doubly affects the move. Stale moves weren't a huge deal in the first two games because of this; SSB4 simply needs to remove KB staling and we're good.

Also, Teneban I think you're missing the point on the momentum canceling complaint. DI is definitely a huge part of the defensive game that really adds to the follow up game throughout all of Smash. It's that you shouldn't be able to smash out aerials during after knockback to cut down KB momentum. It's mindless, easy survival whereas DI requires prediction and active thinking before you take the hit.

I don't know if SFP actually meant non-tumble DI because if that's what it is, a very good example would be Falco's DThrow which, IIRC, you cannot DI or SDI at any point or the throw or during the knockback as you are not sent into tumble. In 64 and Melee, you can SDI any type of hit regardless of whether tumble was induced. SDI is a very crucial part of the game and non-tumble DI prevents a couple of the dumb things that can happen in Brawl.

 

[Vkrm]

Is there really a need to tweak survivability? Brawls lack of edge guarding hurts it more imo. Tweak this. might fix that.

 

[GP&B]

Strong DI angles, floaty gravity, and better recoveries all around already do a lot to nullify edge guarding without accounting for the huge edge grab range. SSB64 got away with floaty physics mostly because everyone except Kirby, Jiggs, and Pikachu had a horrible or below average recovery. Well, that and there were so many ways to set up KO moves as it was.

 

[Bowser D.X]

I actually would prefer it if they kept the slower gameplay.

 

[Vkrm]

But a faster game puts more of an emphasis on strategic thinking. You have to predict as opposed to react. One of the many reasons why melee is more strategic.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

GTFO Vkrm, I don't care about your agenda and no one else does either.

 

[Vkrm]

What? Why? What's the matter?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Because I don't care about how much you hate Brawl and I don't care about how you see every good thing anyone says about Melee as a small victory. You're a pathetic person and frankly I care so little about anything you think or say that I don't know why you bother to say them here. Go start a different thread to compare Brawl and Melee.

 

[Vkrm]

Somehow liking melee better then brawl makes me out to be a pathetic person? I guess it could more about how often I voice my opinion. I don't really see either as a valid reason to dislike me as a person, but whatevs. I guess you must've been one of the guys who actually thought brawl had more strategy.