Smash 4 from a Brawl player's perspective OR the best thread on Smashboards

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hey, you. Yeah, you. We've heard your opinions. You melee player. With your smugness and l-cancelling.

We know what you want. We have heard your cries for more technical, faster gameplay. We know you hate Brawl. Well, what do Brawl players want? What do we, the outcasts, the degenerates, the low-class filth want out of Smash 4?

I dunno. But what do I want? Let's chat about that.

LEGGO.

1. Tripping needs to go.

The only reason I'm putting this on this list at all is because I want to get it out of the way and never talk about it again. Tripping is dumb. Brawl players and its fans know it and play it anyway. We want it to go away. Everyone wants it gone. Scrubs hate it, seasoned pros hate it. No one likes it. Well no one but this handsome specimen of man:

So yeah. Tripping should go. Can we stop talking about it now?

2. Characters need to die earlier.

There are several issues plaguing Brawl at the competitive level and many of them stem from the raw amount of time it takes to run a tournament. There are debates about how to remedy this problem on the Brawl Competitive Discussion forums all the time, but the bottom line is that the game has a lot of inherent flaws:

• Stage barriers are too ****ing big. Reduce them. This alone fixes so many of Brawl's problems. You know that airdodge **** you all hate so much? That's there to stop 0-death combos like all that C. Falcon dthrow uair uair knee garbage, not to end combos altogether, and it doesn't (although I'll touch more on this later). Many characters can perform true combos all the way to 90% or so, but then go on to live until 180%, airdodging away from every move that could possibly kill them, not because of airdodges (well partly) but because of how long it takes to reach the blast zone. Dumb dumb dumb.
• Brawl stale moves are ********. Want to know why? This is why:
  
  Here we have one of the most thrilling and well-designed characters in Brawl, unable to do **** because all of her moves are stale. Her design is tight, thoughtful, and interesting. I wouldn't change a thing. The problem is that all of her moves are designed to combo and pressure, with the unfortunate side effect of her using every move she has to build damage. What happens when it comes time for her to kill? Well, other than competing with unusually large blast barriers, she has to contend with a stale moves queue that punishes her for playing the game. Despite how many problems I find with Melee, the way it handled move spam was perfect and changing it only served to **** over Peach, Sonic, Sheik, Pit and many others --- characters that were otherwise perfectly viable, balanced, and fun.
• No airdodging until hitstun ends, please. Brawl has its share of combos until about the 90% mark, with some characters unable to do them even for that long, but there need to be more reliable ways to string damage together. I don't really want to see a return to melee-style combos (because I want a new game, not a clone). Building damage faster means the stakes are higher and getting hit is a more serious threat. However:
• Keep brawl airdodges. Combos are great, killing someone from a hit guaranteed is okay sometimes, but the idea with Brawl airdodges was that at higher percents you should be able to use airdodges to avoid death for a little while. It's balanced, it's interesting gameplay at high levels (airdodge reads at high level play are incredibly cool), and it's scrub-friendly too. Trying to land in Brawl is hard for many characters, it isn't as easy as you might think.
• Kill momentum cancelling. Bucket braking and the like are interesting and cool character-specific gimmicks and mechanics and I personally like them as they give personality and uniqueness to some characters, but fast falling to reduce momentum (after getting out of hitstun early) makes stocks drag on forever.

These changes: smaller stage blast zones, melee-style stale moves, brawl airdodges only after the end of hitstun, and momentum cancelling will give us a robust combo game while preserving the interesting parts of Brawl's aerial combat late in stocks when it's hype an cool instead of for the entire stock and also just make people die earlier. Please make people die earlier. Please?

3. Shield pressure, please.

I'm not asking for a lot, but can we have shield pressure and shield stun? Defensive positions should be precarious. When you're hiding in your shield, you should be at a disadvantage. With that said, I don't like how unforgiving shields can be in melee, either. Blocking almost always means you're going to get hit eventually unless your opponent makes a mistake. A middle ground between Melee and Brawl is ideal here.

4. Remove tether grabs.

Tether grabs are a condemnation to "bad." At best a tether character will be decent. Shields are a core mechanic in Smash and having decent ways to deal with them is important. Imagine if a Street Fighter character had a 15 frame grab. **** that.

I care plenty about flavor and personality but there's a line. The mechanic has sucked for every character that has ever employed it and it's time for it to go. Put hookshot and grapple beam on specials. Keep zairs, those are great. There's no way to properly balance them. Making them faster makes them broken, and making them recover faster removes the risk associated with the additional range. Give Link, ZSS, Lucas, Samus, and whoever else real grabs so that they can be better than bad-to-decent.

5. Shielding should need to be timed.

This one is pretty simple: just holding R should not make a player shield on the first possible frame. This is really silly design and is a very, very easy way out of dozens of potential mix-ups.

6. Make sure your **** works.

Mario's dtilt shouldn't be unsafe on hit. Samus' pummel should hit things. ZSS' and Ness' jabs shouldn't be unsafe on hit. No one should incur extra lag because they decided to up+b to the ledge. Ganon's fair should probably you know, autocancel at some point. And maybe his up+b should have some hitstun. Lucas' zair should probably have a hitbox. Mashing out of Yoshi's grab shouldn't freeze the god damned game.

7. And finally, DI during pre-tumble hitstun.

I really don't need to explain this one.

8. **** Melee, Brawl4Lyfe.

 

[Vkrm]

Basically, melee 2.0. Lol, kidding. Also melee players don't want techskill for the sake of techskill. All we want is total control, and personally I think when you have as much control as melee gives you, a bit techskill comes with the territory.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually yes, it is fair to say I'm asking for a happy medium between Brawl and Melee but note that I didn't ask for any physics changes from Brawl.

 

[Vkrm]

Don't want dashdance or wave dash? When you say things like **** melee, it kind of makes me glad the community split.

 

[Frostwraith]

I think they should make Smash Bros. 4 different from both Melee and Brawl, but taking the good parts from both.

What I mean to say is that both games have their pros and cons, so I think it'd be wise for the development team to analyze both Melee and Brawl mechanics and implement the best of both.

Personally, they should remove tripping, but keep the air dodge as it works in Brawl. I can't really comment much as I haven't played Melee or Brawl for a long time, then again I never paid much attention to such details.

 

[Orngeblu]

I agree with the person above me. Every word.

>Going to brainstorm what I should say about OP's post

1. Yes, tripping obviously needs to go.

2. The blast zones...hmm...I don't really have a problem with the blast zones, but maybe you could be right here. (I don't know why I named them blast zones, it came to mind) I agree with stopping momentum canceling. You don't understand the many times I've tried to kill someone, and they just barely make it to the blast zone...

 

[Vkrm]

Melee ad's add a lot more strategy.

 

[Orngeblu]

Melee ad's add a lot more strategy.

Oh, you mean Air Dodges, I think. Uuh, I don't think it adds too much of a difference in strategy, if any.

Please give some more information to back up your statement. You can't just say "x is better than y".

 

[Vkrm]

You can actually bait people with it during recovery. Also like it or not wavedashing adds a bunch of approach options and mind game set ups.

 

[Frostwraith]

This thread is heating up... why do I see yet another Melee vs. Brawl debate in the horizon? I must take shelter underground!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's actually easier to bait out airdodges in Brawl during recovery because it poses significantly less a risk to the player offstage. In melee you tend to just die. lol

Both are perfectly fine approaches but brawl's airdodge is so fun to watch at top levels of play, it's a constant game of chicken. The problem is it occurs way too early, it should really only start happening when someone is too damaged to die from a combo.

EDIT: I don't want to argue about melee and brawl. I just wanted to explain that there is strategy in brawl's air dodge, it just isn't the same thing. It's less punishing to do it, sure, but please don't act like it instantly teleports you to the ground lol.

 

[BTmoney]

Also I'm not trying for that melee vs brawl nonsense

1. Tripping needs to go.

2. Characters need to die earlier.

• Brawl stale moves are ********.
• No airdodging until hitstun ends, please. Brawl has its share of combos until about the 90% mark
• (Let me preface this and say I do not pursue brawl competitively so my knowledge is not perfect but to be quite frank a lot of Brawl combos, the ones that exist, are pretty free. They all look easier than performing any given Melee sheik combo, and sheik is probably the easiest character in melee to play. I personally am not a fan of huge rewards for simple things in a competitive setting like pikachu's chain grabs and falco's dthrow->dair. Those are all very basic and huge punishes. Not a lot of characters in Brawl have a serious punish game or options like that.)
• Keep brawl airdodges.
• Eh I like the idea but it'd just need to be changed completely
• Kill momentum cancelling.
• I am a fan of momentum canceling as long as it takes more thought and effort to do

3. Shield pressure, please.
Not sure how you can accomplish this while staying true to Brawl but I am a fan of shield pressure


5. Shielding should need to be timed.
I don't see what's wrong with it

6. Make sure your **** works.

I either agree with everything I left or added my opinion in green or both.

I want to see an expansion in defensive aspects of the game. Like better benefits for shield DI (I don't even know if that's in brawl, I don't think it is) and bigger payoffs for SDI'ing well like reducing knockback and greater displacement.

 

[Vkrm]

Not going into special fall makes as abuse prevalent. Baiting and punishing the airdodge is the main decision tree in brawl, that's how over centralized it is. Unless you're MK. Then you just space up airs without even needing to think about what comes next. Not to say that there's no strategy to using it effectively in brawl, I just think melee's had the right amount risk/reward.

 

[Big-Cat]

1. Tripping needs to go.
No arguments here.
2. Characters need to die earlier.

• Stage barriers are too ****ing big.

Reminds me of Street Fighter IV's complaints that its stages are too big.

• Brawl stale moves are ********.

I'm of the opinion that stale moves doesn't really fix anything in regards to move spam. I feel combo damage scaling is a better way to fix this issue.

• No airdodging until hitstun ends, please.

How about taking a page from other fighting games like BlazBlue and Tekken with their assorted cancels, character specific strings, and transitioning from ground to aerial combat seamlessly?

• Keep brawl airdodges.

I'm not familiar with how Brawl's air dodges in high level play, but I wondered what it'd be like to have aerial ukemis and/or one burst per stock or two.

• Kill momentum cancelling.

Sounds like you'd like to have it where only certain moves can cancel momentum. I feel like this needs to be balanced out so it doesn't take forever to die.

3. Shield pressure, please.
How about move specific shield stun? Meaning, instead of being based on damage, there's more thought to the shield stun per move.

4. Remove tether grabs.

What do you think of tether users getting two grabs. A standard grab like everyone else, but also a FZ input for tether grabs.

5. Shielding should need to be timed.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

My responses in Miku color. I'm not expecting you to like them, but more of how I'd address them.

 

[Jack Kieser]

SFP, you are god tier. I love this thread. Can I add a recommendation (that I know will get shot down but screw it): preset item spawn points.

But, yes, I agree 100% with the OP. That is a really skilled, thoughtful breakdown of some of Brawl's most pressing concerns, and I'm impressed that you thought of ways to fix them without resorting to "Let's do Melee!" I also like that whole "multiple grabs" idea that Kuma thought of, though.

 

[nessokman]

TBH, I hate melee. Brawl made me feel more free to do whatever the f**k i want. Lighter gravity just let me juggle like a bawse.


I honestly hate melee tourneyfags as well. Not everything about smash has to be a clone of melee to satisfy the minority.


I want a happy median. Mainly to shut the freaking melee extremists up.

I get L-cancelling, but whats the big freaking deal about wavedashing? Its not all that useful in fights, more like to rub it in someone's face when they are spawning.....I never cared for it, my old style for melee wouldn't work with it.


just to say, I leik alot of melee players, some are really cool and have great ideas. Brawl fans don't get much of a say here.extreme melee fanatics cover the ones who actually have brains that can process the good parts that brawl had and how concepts from it can be used in smash 4. Then brawl fans are kind of ignored in a sense.
This is a good breakdown of brawl. I leiks it *waits for the "let's make a melee clone" players to get hold of this thread*

 

[BTmoney]

TBH, I hate melee. Brawl made me feel more free to do whatever the f**k i want. Lighter gravity just let me juggle like a bawse.


I honestly hate melee tourney***s as well. Not everything about smash has to be a clone of melee to satisfy the minority.


I want a happy median. Mainly to shut the freaking melee extremists up.

I get L-cancelling, but whats the big freaking deal about wavedashing? Its not all that useful in fights, more like to rub it in someone's face when they are spawning.....I never cared for it, my old style for melee wouldn't work with it.


just to say, I leik alot of melee players, some are really cool and have great ideas. Brawl fans don't get much of a say here.extreme melee fanatics cover the ones who actually have brains that can process the good parts that brawl had and how concepts from it can be used in smash 4. Then brawl fans are kind of ignored in a sense.
This is a good breakdown of brawl. I leiks it *waits for the "let's make a melee clone" players to get hold of this thread*

Be wary of taking the uniformed anti-melee stance, especially one that targets a hypothetical extremist crowd. I think most of us are reasonable and can understand that Brawl does do some things well, some things better and some things worse. Also wavedashing is the only way in the game to retreat while maintaing normal options and facing the opponent. That, along with 1000 other uses. I admit my ignorance to Brawl although I watch it, I am not a competitive Brawl player. I am a Melee player. I do however have a decent understanding of what goes on in Brawl.

Also realize why you like Brawl and expand on that. We should make a collective and objective list of features to keep/drop/add between the two games and then speculate on a more perfect Smash 4 from there.

Essentially I like how in Melee you can cancel the lag of some attacks which incentives playing with knowledge and technical ability (all I mean by that is the ability to input the command), I also like In brawl that you can air dodge without going into special fall. However air dodging in Brawl is too good imo and I'd like for that to be changed. That incentives slowing down the game.

 

[Vkrm]

I watch brawl as well, more so for commentary. The people who comprise the scene are good people, i just cant get over how linear and stuttered the flow of the matches can be. The worst thing about brawl is how shallow the neutral game is and how the game jarringly shifts the momentum by itself by giving the attacker extra hoops to jump through after scoring a hit. I really don't see a point in adjusting hitstun until after they've reworked mobility.

@nessokman disliking a game based on who plays it is silly. Learn about melee itself before you decide if you hate it. One more thing, when people talk about taking the good bits of both games, what would we take from brawl that melee lacks?

 

[Baskerville]

Pretty much agree with everything you said here except removing tether grabs. They don't have to be removed completely, just sped up so you don't get punished for attempting to grab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My responses in Miku color. I'm not expecting you to like them, but more of how I'd address them.

I'm of the opinion that stale moves doesn't really fix anything in regards to move spam. I feel combo damage scaling is a better way to fix this issue.

The issue is that "move spam" doesn't really need a "fix." Smash is the first "competitive" game I've ever played where you're punished for using one move repeatedly. The reality is that most "spam" in both Brawl and Melee is either strategically purposed or just easy to beat if not both. The stale moves queue is also too big IMO. 10 moves, really? That's nuts.

How about taking a page from other fighting games like BlazBlue and Tekken with their assorted cancels, character specific strings, and transitioning from ground to aerial combat seamlessly?

Too complicated. Don't take this the wrong way, I don't mind complex mechanics, but the beauty of both Melee and Brawl is the hidden complexity of an otherwise simple idea. That's why everyone loves it, that's why it's fun for both scrubs and pro players. Adding a bunch of complicated cancels and combat mechanics only muddies the waters and dilute's Smash's identity as a franchise.

I'm not familiar with how Brawl's air dodges in high level play, but I wondered what it'd be like to have aerial ukemis and/or one burst per stock or two.

No comment here, see my last answer. But in high-level Brawl play, since true combos tend to trail off between 50 and 90% depending on the move and character, many follow-ups involve putting your opponent in a position where airdodge, jump, or wait are their only options and then waiting it out. It leads to a lot of really tense (and yes hype) scenarios but the issue is that their significance is largely diluted due to their frequency.

Sounds like you'd like to have it where only certain moves can cancel momentum. I feel like this needs to be balanced out so it doesn't take forever to die.

Small correction here: Brawl already has certain moves that can cancel momentum, and I think those can stay. Many even require good reaction times, tech skill, and experience. I'm asking for global fast fall momentum cancelling in Brawl to be removed. In case you don't know this, performing an aerial breaks hitstun a little early in Brawl (not as early as airdodging, though) and if you perform a very fast aerial, you can start to fast fall immediately which reduces your KB momentum and by extension, makes you live longer.

How about move specific shield stun? Meaning, instead of being based on damage, there's more thought to the shield stun per move.

This is a great idea.

What do you think of tether users getting two grabs. A standard grab like everyone else, but also a FZ input for tether grabs.

Depends, but to be honest this is pretty similar to what I suggested (putting tether grabs on specials) so I'm not profoundly opposed.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

In Brawl, holding the R button down at any time makes you shield on the first possible frame. For example, if someone fthrows you, you can hold R and when your character touches the ground they will shield ASAP. I'm reasonably sure it works this way in Melee too, but in Brawl it's really severe because shields are so strong and because follow-ups are about reads. R is the ultimate option-select in Brawl, because holding it covers almost everything, especially at low percents but also in a few other circumstances (for example, holding R when ZSS performs her jab combo on you makes you PS between jab 2 and 3 every time because there's not enough stun on jab 2 to link jab 3).

SFP, you are god tier. I love this thread. Can I add a recommendation (that I know will get shot down but screw it): preset item spawn points.

But, yes, I agree 100% with the OP. That is a really skilled, thoughtful breakdown of some of Brawl's most pressing concerns, and I'm impressed that you thought of ways to fix them without resorting to "Let's do Melee!" I also like that whole "multiple grabs" idea that Kuma thought of, though.

I like preset item points but there are a few things working against this idea, namely that "party" or casual smash is intended to be fun and chaotic and random spawn points add to this experience in a very tangible, visceral way that makes combat explosive and fun. I don't want to take anything away from casual players. They already find us annoying (in many cases rightfully so) and hardcore players will almost certainly never use items no matter what is done to their spawn locations.

Thanks for your feedback!

Pretty much agree with everything you said here except removing tether grabs. They don't have to be removed completely, just sped up so you don't get punished for attempting to grab.

The issue is that the additional range is a very real (and very serious) benefit and power that has to be balanced accordingly. Keeping the additional range means there has to be some kind of downside. The problem may very well be that there are too many downsides. For example, how about if tether grabs come out as fast as traditional grabs but keep the lag at the end? I still don't like them though, too many needless complications.

A lot of the players in this thread and on the forums here are advocates of ideas that make Smash more complicated with meters and cancels and so forth, but I'd argue those sorts of things really benefit no one (casual, melee, brawl, whatever) and only serve to homogenize the game further into traditional fighting game territory. There's nothing wrong with fighting games but Smash is different and has a unique place in the competitive gaming world (for scrubs and hardcore players alike) that needs to be preserved. I can almost guarantee that someone with some level of influence is reading the discussion here, and it is everyone's responsibility to make sure that our suggestions leave casual players have a fun game in the end, even if we play the game differently.

To that end, tether grabs are a tough cookie to balance. Olimar (a character I forgot to mention, but illustrates this point very well) is a great example of why tether grabs are either dumb, or dumb.

 

[Big-Cat]

The issue is that "move spam" doesn't really need a "fix." Smash is the first "competitive" game I've ever played where you're punished for using one move repeatedly. The reality is that most "spam" in both Brawl and Melee is either strategically purposed or just easy to beat if not both. The stale moves queue is also too big IMO. 10 moves, really? That's nuts.

I was talking more from a perspective where certain moves are almost always the most optimal move in a certain situation. Though, I definitely think the whole "stale moves" mechanic is a very dumb idea.

Too complicated. Don't take this the wrong way, I don't mind complex mechanics, but the beauty of both Melee and Brawl is the hidden complexity of an otherwise simple idea. That's why everyone loves it, that's why it's fun for both scrubs and pro players. Adding a bunch of complicated cancels and combat mechanics only muddies the waters and dilute's Smash's identity as a franchise.

No comment here, see my last answer. But in high-level Brawl play, since true combos tend to trail off between 50 and 90% depending on the move and character, many follow-ups involve putting your opponent in a position where airdodge, jump, or wait are their only options and then waiting it out. It leads to a lot of really tense (and yes hype) scenarios but the issue is that their significance is largely diluted due to their frequency.

I say we agree to disagree, but hear me out. Personally, I don't find cancels and strings to be all that complicated. I mean, most cancels in fighting games are exactly the same as Lucario's OHC (did we really need a fancy term for chains?) in Project M. As for the identity of the franchise, I look at this in terms of "more than the sum of their parts". Street Fighter, BlazBlue, King of Fighters, vs. Capcom, etc. all play very differently despite the similar controls and common mechanics between them. You'd have to do a lot to dilute Smash's identity, namely adding HP bars, fixed knockback on every move (I think fixed for some might be good a idea in Smash), no ringouts, etc.

I believe that adding strings and assorted cancels will make the games a lot faster and can serve to expand the combat of the game.

Small correction here: Brawl already has certain moves that can cancel momentum, and I think those can stay. Many even require good reaction times, tech skill, and experience. I'm asking for global fast fall momentum cancelling in Brawl to be removed. In case you don't know this, performing an aerial breaks hitstun a little early in Brawl (not as early as airdodging, though) and if you perform a very fast aerial, you can start to fast fall immediately which reduces your KB momentum and by extension, makes you live longer.

I know what you're talking about. I remember doing this in Brawl when it came out, but I don't remember where I learned it from.

Depends, but to be honest this is pretty similar to what I suggested (putting tether grabs on specials) so I'm not profoundly opposed.

In Brawl, holding the R button down at any time makes you shield on the first possible frame. For example, if someone fthrows you, you can hold R and when your character touches the ground they will shield ASAP. I'm reasonably sure it works this way in Melee too, but in Brawl it's really severe because shields are so strong and because follow-ups are about reads. R is the ultimate option-select in Brawl, because holding it covers almost everything, especially at low percents but also in a few other circumstances (for example, holding R when ZSS performs her jab combo on you makes you PS between jab 2 and 3 every time because there's not enough stun on jab 2 to link jab 3).

So are you saying that there should be a startup on shields? I don't know about you, but I feel this will be disastrous.

A lot of the players in this thread and on the forums here are advocates of ideas that make Smash more complicated with meters and cancels and so forth, but I'd argue those sorts of things really benefit no one (casual, melee, brawl, whatever) and only serve to homogenize the game further into traditional fighting game territory. There's nothing wrong with fighting games but Smash is different and has a unique place in the competitive gaming world (for scrubs and hardcore players alike) that needs to be preserved. I can almost guarantee that someone with some level of influence is reading the discussion here, and it is everyone's responsibility to make sure that our suggestions leave casual players have a fun game in the end, even if we play the game differently.

I'll just end my post with this. Being unique for the sake of being unique is not always the best thing to do.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So are you saying that there should be a startup on shields? I don't know about you, but I feel this will be disastrous.

No! I'm saying that you should have to time your shield. Hitting R to stop a mix-up on landing is fine, holding R down and getting out of stuff for free is not.

 

[Ziodyne]

LOL this OP is too good. Def. best thread in these part of the boards.

As a Melee player, I actually like this Brawl player's idea. I'm already fanatically devoted to Melee, so having a Brawl game that actually works wouldn't be a bad change of pace at all.

 

[Big-Cat]

No! I'm saying that you should have to time your shield. Hitting R to stop a mix-up on landing is fine, holding R down and getting out of stuff for free is not.

That sounds like more like a balancing issue than the ability to buffer a blocking input. What would you say to shields covering only a portion of the character, giving you high, low, and crossup mixups? This way, shielding in some direction is not the best option at all times.

 

[Renji64]

A middle ground between brawl and melee this game needs to be less defensive. Faster and Just good fun hopefully some new modes too. The last thing i want is a brawl 2.0.​

 

[BSP]

No comment on ledge mechanics SFP?

Personally, I hope they reduce the sweet spot range. The distance most characters can snap on from is ridiculous, and it takes away from the edge guarding portion of the game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No comment on ledge mechanics SFP?

Personally, I hope they reduce the sweet spot range. The distance most characters can snap on from is ridiculous, and it takes away from the edge guarding portion of the game.

To be honest I didn't mention them for a few reasons:

1. It's up there with tripping in terms of "obvious **** everyone talks about all the time,"
2. I don't mind the ledge magnet but agree the distance should be dramatically reduced,
3. Frankly I like grabbing the ledge when facing away from it (I believe this is possible due to the magnet) and don't want it to go anywhere. That was one of the most frustrating things about melee for me as a kid (before I played smash competitively) and I'm still terrified of it when I play melee. Frankly I think it's a really weird determining factor for grabbing ledges and a ton of characters like recovering with their back facing the stage in Brawl.

 

[nessokman]

Melee had extreme offense.Might even be considered overkill....
brawl had defensive, which i leik alot.
Nothing entertains me like waiting for them to come to me, rolling out of the way and then blasting them off the stage. Mainly because you know they are crying about their plan falling apart >:3)

I want a game that is equally balanced in offense and defense, so i can switch between them without any trouble. Character balance wouldn't be as much of an issue if the game was like that.

brawl's music selection was beautiful. (if they don't have Piggy Guys I'll kill sakurai; >:D its such a good song.

Brawl's trophy selection! GOD they did a crapload!

melee's....ehhh.........

*Gets lazy and doesn't wanna type more*

 

[BSP]

They should put in the real misplaced revenge before they worry about Piggy Guys. You can't even tell it's battle music from the way Brawl presents it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Melee had extreme offense.Might even be considered overkill....
brawl had defensive, which i leik alot.
Nothing entertains me like waiting for them to come to me, rolling out of the way and then blasting them off the stage. Mainly because you know they are crying about their plan falling apart >:3)

I want a game that is equally balanced in offense and defense, so i can switch between them without any trouble. Character balance wouldn't be as much of an issue if the game was like that.

The problems with Brawl's defensive game is that you're penalized just for approaching, something that shouldn't happen in any fighting game, ever. This was primarily a result of cancelable hitstun (who thought this was a good idea?), random tripping, stale moves, among other things. A problem I have is when turtling is too dominant of a tactic. Defensive play should require you to be moving around for advantageous positions, playing keep out with pokes, whiff punishing, etc. Defensive play should not be where you can Judo throw everything tossed at you without some risk.

brawl's music selection was beautiful. (if they don't have Piggy Guys I'll kill sakurai; >:D its such a good song.

Brawl's trophy selection! GOD they did a crapload!

melee's....ehhh.........

*Gets lazy and doesn't wanna type more*

Brawl's music was definitely good in a lot of areas, but there were also a good number that were simply forgettable or just plain bad. For example, while the French Ai no Uta was a nice bit of fanservice, it was way too short for its own good, especially when the original Ai no Uta was much longer.

Brawl's trophy selection is the epitome of laziness. All the trophies were either from Brawl or ripped from other games. As a result, you had a bunch of stupid ones like Wedding Peach, Strikers Daisy, etc. that no one was clamoring for. Meanwhile, a lot of series weren't represented properly because they didn't have any 3D models to rip from. Fire Emblem, MOTHER, and Wario were very limited in comparison to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon because of this.

 

[Luco]

Be wary of taking the uniformed anti-melee stance, especially one that targets a hypothetical extremist crowd. I think most of us are reasonable and can understand that Brawl does do some things well, some things better and some things worse. Also wavedashing is the only way in the game to retreat while maintaing normal options and facing the opponent. That, along with 1000 other uses. I admit my ignorance to Brawl although I watch it, I am not a competitive Brawl player. I am a Melee player. I do however have a decent understanding of what goes on in Brawl.

Also realize why you like Brawl and expand on that. We should make a collective and objective list of features to keep/drop/add between the two games and then speculate on a more perfect Smash 4 from there.

Essentially I like how in Melee you can cancel the lag of some attacks which incentives playing with knowledge and technical ability (all I mean by that is the ability to input the command), I also like In brawl that you can air dodge without going into special fall. However air dodging in Brawl is too good imo and I'd like for that to be changed. That incentives slowing down the game.

Wow.

I actually really like this guy. :D

I'm actually not too scared with a lot of what Brawl did except for the extremes. Length was never an issue for me, killing either, etc. That said I think stale moves are good and bad in that they kinda promote strategy in theory but it usually ends up not working out that way but sometimes and kinda... eh... yea... :/

Also, am I the only one who likes the fact that there aren't a large amount of combos? I dunno, it's just nice to know that I can get hit by something and don't have to worry about "Well okay that's an automatic 50%... yep, yep and yep..." Some moves stringing in to each other is fine but there's usually ways to get out of them with correct SDI. I guess if I had to change anything in this regard it would be to have combo set-ups but ways to avoid and get out of them, albeit with some difficulty. Suppose that's just me though.

I like the solution for two different tether grabs and I support the whole making sure things work. :D

With shielding, i'm not sure... wouldn't this be one of 'those issues', like the whole however-many-frames-it-is delay you have on moves? Is that even a thing? I dunno... it just feels to me like people are gonna complain "The point of a shield i to protect me, I shouldn't have to do complex math solutions in my head to know when any given thing is going to hit me so that i can shield, while it's already kinda unsafe to do so.

I mean, one or the other, I guess? We don't want to make shields obsolete, right?

I dunno.

But overall I support the idea. I guess I was just never concerned with a lot of what brawl had, more the fact that only a few things really bugged me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also, am I the only one who likes the fact that there aren't a large amount of combos? I dunno, it's just nice to know that I can get hit by something and don't have to worry about "Well okay that's an automatic 50%... yep, yep and yep..." Some moves stringing in to each other is fine but there's usually ways to get out of them with correct SDI. I guess if I had to change anything in this regard it would be to have combo set-ups but ways to avoid and get out of them, albeit with some difficulty. Suppose that's just me though.

You know, I used to think like this until I started playing more fighting games that had rightfully damaging combos where the risk and reward made a lot more sense. Obviously, getting in with a jab shouldn't result in a TOD combo, that's just dumb.

On "correct SDI", I still don't like this a whole lot. This whole idea that there is a magic angle to get out of an attack's way or to be able to (S)DI out of certain attacks. I'm of the opinion that not every move NEEDS DI, and that those with DI should have the path options rigidly defined for balancing reasons - meaning no magic angles or anything of the sort found by the players. Also, multi-hit attacks should have SDI only on the last hit. If I recall, isn't that makes moves like Zelda's USmash useless because of how easy you can escape it?

 

[Ziodyne]

In Melee 1.0, moves that deal 1% are not affected by SDI.

So Zelda's usmash and fsmash were non-SDIable in the most early iteration of the game.

I think it's a pretty solid implementation, but I usually don't have much of an imagination for these things.

 

[Luco]

Not all moves need SDI but a bunch of them could do with it.

The reason Zelda's Usmash is so bad isn't just because you can SDI out of it though; it's not like it leads into combos. Basically, either have the move lead in to combos if you can't SDI out of it (which is actually surprisingly hard if you don't see it coming and sometimes difficult even when you do) or just have it like it is without SDI factors.

I dunno whether that's actually a very balancing way of doing it though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In Melee 1.0, moves that deal 1% are not affected by SDI.

This is also how it works in Brawl.

 

[Vkrm]

In melee, I'm pretty sure the move needs to to stale below 1% and get rounded up to get rid of the hit lag.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Melee had extreme offense.Might even be considered overkill....
brawl had defensive, which i leik alot.

Melee's not extremely offensive at all, it's has both extremes of offense and defense viable (see Hungrybox and/or Armada) but most people prefer offense because they like characters that aren't ****ing boring like Brawl.

Agree with most of the stuff in OP except tether grabs, which actually work well in Melee.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Melee's not extremely offensive at all, it's has both extremes of offense and defense viable (see Hungrybox and/or Armada) but most people prefer offense because they like characters that aren't ****ing boring like Brawl.

Agree with most of the stuff in OP except tether grabs, which actually work well in Melee.

If you don't have anything constructive to say get out.

 

[infiniteV115]

Agree with 1, 4 and 6 (wrt 1, I think running-induced random tripping should be eliminated. Tripping caused by getting hit by a move, I'm okay with)
Disagree with 2 (ie everything except for keeping Brawl airdodges, I agree with that), 5 and 7.
Meh about 3.
No comment on 8 XD. I guess you could say I disagree with it but that's not to assume that the converse is true. I like both games.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Agree with 1, 4 and 6 (wrt 1, I think running-induced random tripping should be eliminated. Tripping caused by getting hit by a move, I'm okay with)
Disagree with 2 (ie everything except for keeping Brawl airdodges, I agree with that), 5 and 7.
Meh about 3.
No comment on 8 XD. I guess you could say I disagree with it but that's not to assume that the converse is true. I like both games.

Why would anyone disagree with 7? It's a huge, huge flaw that creates a ton of really lame situations for everyone.