Smash 4 Custom Moves being Legalized?

[TokyoKami]

I saw on D1's twitter a moment ago regarding what we think about custom move sets being legal in a tournament setting. What do you guys think about it? Personally I'm against it. Do you guys think it will be legal in the future?

 

[Neoleo21]

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...-initial-release.381395/page-15#post-18543237

Put your post here.

 

[popsofctown]

No, his post does not necessarily go there. That thread is more about helping people implement them than it is about debating them. Ruleset discusson is more appropriate. Or this thread might be worth it's own thing, possibly.

 

[warriorman222]

First: why do you oppose it?
Second: His post is fine to be here. That's not debate, this is.

 

[T0MMY]

Straw polls may seem innocent because it's just data collected. But just wait and see it'll be like any other tool - can be used for good or bad. Polls like these are for a general audience who know next to nothing about how the competitors want to compete. So that's not saying that this poll is not going to turn out to be incorrectly reflecting competition but it is going about it the wrong way.
An example is that a straw poll conducted amongst a general audience could show Items being favored on "medium" about 80%. This doesn't mean competitions should or are going to use items at all.

As a side note: I am for Custom Fighters "On" starting off as a side event alongside something like Doubles and Quads or having a 3DS tournament include them because it would bypass the logistics problems for the Wii U tournaments. But I really don't see Customs becoming a standard and I'm starting to really not care about them at all after playing with them for a while - the novelty wears off kind of quickly, something that is fine if they were pushed for a side event but kind of devastating if it was pushed for a 1v1 standard.

 

[Balgorxz]

well now that we know how to easily unlock customs there is no downsides of using customs, they give variety to a game which is pretty basic already so that's a good thing, now if won't be learn 5 MU pick an easy character and go to a tournament.

 

[warriorman222]

Straw polls may seem innocent because it's just data collected. But just wait and see it'll be like any other tool - can be used for good or bad. Polls like these are for a general audience who know next to nothing about how the competitors want to compete. So that's not saying that this poll is not going to turn out to be incorrectly reflecting competition but it is going about it the wrong way.
An example is that a straw poll conducted amongst a general audience could show Items being favored on "medium" about 80%. This doesn't mean competitions should or are going to use items at all.

As a side note: I am for Custom Fighters "On" starting off as a side event alongside something like Doubles and Quads or having a 3DS tournament include them because it would bypass the logistics problems for the Wii U tournaments. But I really don't see Customs becoming a standard and I'm starting to really not care about them at all after playing with them for a while - the novelty wears off kind of quickly, something that is fine if they were pushed for a side event but kind of devastating if it was pushed for a 1v1 standard.

If we took it slow, like in steps, then it wouldn't be so devastating. Other games have customizable features, and Tos not allowing them is another nitpick for the idiots from other fanbases (Not all, but some people) to make fun of. Some of them have the most ridiculous reasons:

• Changing the definition of Super Armor, TWICE.
• Hyper Armor.
• Jigglypuff.
• Awesome-cool-evil Ganon is the worst in the series by far.
• Overall bad balance 1st 3 games
• New clown char each game
• One guy saying Smash 4 is better than *insert natural fighter here*
• Eventhubs tier list.
• Being so against petty customization.

And those are just the bad ones. Allowing customs slashes off three of those. The others are only coming from the truly stupid, but other fighter games have decent fanbases, so that's unlikely to happen.

In reality, screw insults, they don't matter. But reasons are reasons, the more the merrier, right?

 

[T0MMY]

If we took it slow, like in steps, then it wouldn't be so devastating.

Totally agree!
Would be a shame to have the movement shoot itself in the foot trying to push too hard too quick.

 

[Bob da Bob]

I think custom moves should be legalized but not equipments. Each custom move has a buff and a nerf to the normal version of it so it isn't over powered.

 

[cree318]

I'm all for customs. Even though it will require players to have to know more for MUs, I feel that it will make the competitive scene more interesting.

 

[Charey]

The problem with "Taking it slow" is that once the ruleset is "set" in people's minds trying to get people to change what rules they are using will be difficult because they want to use what rules are used by the Majors, which don't change rulesets often.

If we want legal custom moves we need to push for it now while the ruleset is still in a state of flux.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem with "Taking it slow" is that once the ruleset is "set" in people's minds trying to get people to change what rules they are using will be difficult because they want to use what rules are used by the Majors, which don't change rulesets often.

If we want legal custom moves we need to push for it now while the ruleset is still in a state of flux.

Yeah. You know what didn't happen very often over Brawl's lifespan? New elements in play becoming tournament legal.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd personally like customs, more stages, and more stocks all thrown at the wall together at the same time. To use side tournaments as a proving ground for the controversial and exciting.

This is by far the easiest, most intuitive smash to play and understand, to suggest that more customs and stages make it too complex would suggest that they make it more complex than melee. When the reality is that sm4sh will still be far easier to get into competitively, as the controls are easier and the interactions more obvious.

Unlike melee with both a high floor and ceiling, sm4sh will only have the high ceiling. And the idea of environments that stifle potential and innovation like this Vanilla 2-stock Startsville meta we've become accustomed to is a worrying one.

 

[Raijinken]

This movement towards customs is the best thing that could happen for Smash.

 

[Squaddle]

Customs allow characters like ganon, lucina/marth, and palutena to be actually usable in high levels of play... Until i see evidence that some custom loadouts are completely busted, I'm all for it.

 

[warriorman222]

Customs allow characters like ganon, lucina/marth, and palutena to be actually usable in high levels of play... Until i see evidence that some custom loadouts are completely busted, I'm all for it.

This. The closest thing to busted is 1122 Mii Brawler, and that's very counterable, as the trick is to get yourself above 70%, so he can't combo kill you, and you're safe.

 

[Neoleo21]

Oh boy, we have some convincing to do....

https://twitter.com/CEOJebailey/status/565304185546358785

 

[TokyoKami]

First: why do you oppose it?
Second: His post is fine to be here. That's not debate, this is.

It could essentially be abused. I.e bigger hit box with the custom move for Mr. G&W's B for example. It is all different for specific characters of course but then of course comes to the factor of learning the match up in various IFS rather than someone picking a character and you understand the match up. At that point it becomes a guessing game.. I personally don't like it but I can see why some would like it.

 

[TokyoKami]

But these arguments do seem reasonable so I think I am having a slight change of heart. However I do agree that it is something that has to be something taken into slowly. Because it could take a very long time to fully understand the MUs in depth. Never really looked at it from the other perspective but it does bring a more dynamic feel to the game.

 

[warriorman222]

It could essentially be abused. I.e bigger hit box with the custom move for Mr. G&W's B for example. It is all different for specific characters of course but then of course comes to the factor of learning the match up in various IFS rather than someone picking a character and you understand the match up. At that point it becomes a guessing game.. I personally don't like it but I can see why some would like it.

Which B, down or up? Both of the ones with bigger hitboxes are garbage, because XXL Chef is only good for edgeguards, and you have fair for that. panic Overload doesn't get big enough to justify never killing and a very small absorb box.

In custom tourneys, the general rule is to tell your opponent the numbers or names of your moves, and the set/Mii name will havr it. And lying is DQ or insta loss. It's no guessing game.

It took me an hour to permanently learn what each character custom dies. Gimme any one, and I would give a good analysis on it. Just go yo Smashwiki, or ask someone. It's quite east to learn if you try.

 

[Octagon]

I think custom moves should be legalized but not equipments. Each custom move has a buff and a nerf to the normal version of it so it isn't over powered.

Exactly. People who say custom moves break the game don't understand that every moves have their drawbacks. Custom equipment break the game cause you can increase all of your stats and win only because you have better stats, not skill

 

[warriorman222]

Exactly. People who say custom moves break the game don't understand that every moves have their drawbacks. Custom equipment break the game cause you can increase all of your stats and win only because you have better stats, not skill

There is a set, unchanging equipment in the game: 3 from rewards, more from challenges. Those don't break the game. But still, it's not the stats that are the problem, it's the randomness.

 

[Raijinken]

But these arguments do seem reasonable so I think I am having a slight change of heart. However I do agree that it is something that has to be something taken into slowly. Because it could take a very long time to fully understand the MUs in depth. Never really looked at it from the other perspective but it does bring a more dynamic feel to the game.

I've got several friends who were initially opposed to customs (in general, or the specific setups proposed in Ampharos's project), and all it really took was showing them some new tricks and improved viability for them to open up to it. Now one of them complains more when we don't play with Customs.

 

[Sterling Ford]

I honestly think that custom moves should be legal. It adds the flavor to the metagame. There could be still non-custom touranment. There's probably two tier lists with Smash 4.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've got several friends who were initially opposed to customs (in general, or the specific setups proposed in Ampharos's project), and all it really took was showing them some new tricks and improved viability for them to open up to it. Now one of them complains more when we don't play with Customs.

That's been my experience too. Not so much IRL, but lately I've been making a point out of saving videos, gifs, etc. that show off what customs can do and whenever I post them I usually get at least one response along the lines of "I used to be against customs but now that I've seen this I'm totally in favor."

 

[warriorman222]

I honestly think that custom moves should be legal. It adds the flavor to the metagame. There could be still non-custom touranment. There's probably two tier lists with Smash 4.

Yeah, in one Diddy is best, brawler worst, another Diddy is worst or near worst and brawler is best/near best, best if he also gets min/min as an option/default. Yeah, customs completely change the tier lists, we get like 30 high tiers and another 10 top tiers with customs on. The only chars that suck are those left behind by customs (Jiggly) or those that don't use them at all nor have customs that justify using. Even then, these suckys are definitely usable, and unlike the old meta, ther eis no centralization, no Diddy, less Smashville, and @Jigglymaster becomes the new ZeRo(lol, but this guy got 2nd at a tounrey simply with 2222 but was beat by Diddy ZeRo, with minmin 1122 he would probably beat ZeRo next time)

 

[Thinkaman]

I am pretty sure that default Sheik and Diddy are still overall the best characters in the game even if everyone else has their superior custom options.

(Sheik can technically run 1211 over default, but the improvement is trivial. All 3 side-b options are very limited moves for 1v1...)

 

[Raijinken]

I am pretty sure that default Sheik and Diddy are still overall the best characters in the game even if everyone else has their superior custom options.

(Sheik can technically run 1211 over default, but the improvement is trivial. All 3 side-b options are very limited moves for 1v1...)

I recently stagespiked a friend with Gravity Grenade 1v1. Aside from that, grenade's kinda meh 1v1. Definitely more of a doubles consideration, GravGren even opens up ways to save teammates who can't make it back to the stage.

 

[TokyoKami]

Given the detailed and well written responses that I have got, I am definitely all for custom moves now. It does add flavor to the new meta. I totally agree the equipment should not be used at all. But custom move sets do seem interesting as it adds more uniqueness to the individual competing. Glad everyone was so positive in responding, I am still fairly new to the community as a whole, and it's just really awesome to see everyone so positive. That is really awesome. Thanks for the insight guys! Look forward to seeing all of you who are attending EVO 2015! ^-^

 

[Octagon]

You never know, a couple amazing customs could make some characters even better than the Shieks and Diddys of the world, but we won't know until more testing with customs at tournaments

 

[Raijinken]

You never know, a couple amazing customs could make some characters even better than the Shieks and Diddys of the world, but we won't know until more testing with customs at tournaments

Ultimately, the game relies on normals (A-button moves, if you will) rather than specials for most characters in most scenarios. That's why, generally speaking, better specials are very unlikely to break a character, while they're quite likely to give characters some much-needed variability (or in many cases, survivability).

 

[Octagon]

Ultimately, the game relies on normals (A-button moves, if you will) rather than specials for most characters in most scenarios. That's why, generally speaking, better specials are very unlikely to break a character, while they're quite likely to give characters some much-needed variability (or in many cases, survivability).

The game doesnt rely on normals. Just look at Duck Hunt, his pros are his projectiles which are not standard moves. Even though better specials are unlikely to help characters drastically, its still possible

 

[Raijinken]

The game doesnt rely on normals. Just look at Duck Hunt, his pros are his projectiles which are not standard moves. Even though better specials are unlikely to help characters drastically, its still possible

There are a handful of exceptions, but the vast majority of the cast will not be relying on the 20% of the moveset that is comprised of specials, but the 80% that is comprised of everything else. Even the exceptions typically only use specials for defensive walling and damage racking, and still need good normals to close stocks.

 

[Thinkaman]

You never know, a couple amazing customs could make some characters even better than the Shieks and Diddys of the world, but we won't know until more testing with customs at tournaments

So, many of us have been playing predominantly with customs for the last 4 months. Here's some facts, for better or for worse:

• Yes, most characters have 1 or 2 optimal movesets for most or all matchups.
• Customs are on average worse than defaults.
  • I prefer the default option to either custom 60% of the time.
• Thankfully, no custom is broken.
  • The very best customs options are not as dominating as some default options.
  • Still, Kong Cyclone and Timber Counter can be a big threat to players who don't understand them.
• Customs definitely benefit balance, but do not cause anyone to leapfrog Sheik or Diddy.

For comparison, here is my current opinions on character tiers with and without customs:
Naturally, any tier list is highly opinionated, so anyone will find things they disagree with. The point here is the big picture.

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:








Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tier relative to a no-customs list:

Note: We shouldn't discuss general tier opinions in this thread; Character Competitive Impressions is the place for that. I'm just copying this to try and give people with little custom moves experience an idea of what to expect.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, many of us have been playing predominantly with customs for the last 4 months. Here's some facts, for better or for worse:

• Yes, most characters have 1 or 2 optimal movesets for most or all matchups.
• Customs are on average worse than defaults.
  • I prefer the default option to either custom 60% of the time.
• Thankfully, no custom is broken.
  • The very best customs options are not as dominating as some default options.
  • Still, Kong Cyclone and Timber Counter can be a big threat to players who don't understand them.
• Customs definitely benefit balance, but do not cause anyone to leapfrog Sheik or Diddy.

For comparison, here is my current opinions on character tiers with and without customs:
Naturally, any tier list is highly opinionated, so anyone will find things they disagree with. The point here is the big picture.

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:








Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tier relative to a no-customs list:

Note: We shouldn't discuss general tier opinions in this thread; Character Competitive Impressions is the place for that. I'm just copying this to try and give people with little custom moves experience an idea of what to expect.

Every time I see this I think "poor Zelda..."

 

[Thinkaman]

Every time I see this I think "poor Zelda..."

At least she DOES get significantly better due to her Din's options. (Blaze is secretly really great as an edge-guard.) Zelda still benefits from customs more than almost half the cast.

It's just... not enough to bump her out of the gutter.

 

[digiholic]

Customs allow characters like ganon, lucina/marth, and palutena to be actually usable in high levels of play... Until i see evidence that some custom loadouts are completely busted, I'm all for it.

If we start banning custom moves for being OP, I think we should start banning defaults that are too strong as well.

 

[DunnoBro]

Zelda needs a custom that gives her back brawl/melee down-special. :^)

 

[Raijinken]

Zelda needs a custom that gives her back brawl/melee down-special. :^)

I always joke about how her DownB was the most nerfed move between Smash4 and past games.

But really, she's got some options, she just doesn't handle 1v1 well at all. She's actually pretty fine for doubles, though. Load a teammate Villager up with a Phantom Warrior, watch the fun ensue.

 

[digiholic]

I always joke about how her DownB was the most nerfed move between Smash4 and past games.

But really, she's got some options, she just doesn't handle 1v1 well at all. She's actually pretty fine for doubles, though. Load a teammate Villager up with a Phantom Warrior, watch the fun ensue.

Man, villager is just built for doubles, isn't he?