Sm4sh's Offensive Meta... so far (Community Response)

[2ndComing]

I am back again... and hopefully I am not terrible at this.... oh garsh

So everyone, I want to ask this question because from what I have seen through streams and little highlights posted on reddit and the boards..

I have noticed the game can be like Brawl at high percents because of the lack of high hitstun and then more like Melee, PM and 64 with combos at low percents

Yet... as I am watching and getting hyped at these combo's and follow-ups... I notice 40% of them aren't true combos and while I like that I know some don't. People really like having guaranteed follow-ups that they can go auto-pilot and get hype stuff going.

So I am here to ask the community how everyone feels on the game having escapable combo's over true combos. I know there are true combo's we have seen Mario is a combo monster and other characters as well... but we know some things will devolve into strings over combo's because the hitstun in this game is the lowest it has been in the series (Brawl's had melee hitstun, it just had a mechanic that cancels the hitstun with an input of somekind, if I am wrong please correct me).

I for one like escapable combos because it shows the skill of a player to continue a combo or punish an airdodge to keep a string going not to mention reading the DI and other Smash stuff like that.

Look at these examples of combo's that people can do (credit goes to all who made these)

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGZlYMNSt1o
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mojmd1ZhtBc
3. http://www.gfycat.com/TalkativePiercingCurassow
4. http://gfycat.com/EmotionalNeglectedAfricanfisheagle

The best example of what I am talking about is number 4 where Chillin's Lucina kept the string going and punished the other player for not air-dodging or well doing anything to get out of it.

I will say this about the links I posted, only 1 of those were against an actual person (the rest are against high level cpus) and about 60% or so of those combos were not true but did that not make them anymore excited to watch? Was it not hype to see a string like that? Is this not good offensive play by these players?

This is what the offensive meta will more than likely evolve into (imo / so far), length combo strings that lead of the low percent hitstun into basic reading of DI and punishes of airdodges (which is typical Brawl meta, especially for characters like Shiek)

How do you all feel about this possibly being the future of the Smash's Offensive?





I did bad job...? Also why does D3's F-Smash do 29% uncharged?.... balance my bumm

 

[Prism]

I personally LOVE LOVE LOVE that we have these "escapable combos". I used to love P:M but I honestly started to really dislike it because of the things you can do that the opponent literally can't escape from. I don't have fun watching someone get chain grabbed across FD. In my opinion, escapable combos mean players have to be smarter to get combos at higher levels of play, and that makes me so excited for this game to evolve.

 

[TimeSmash]

We'll have to see what comes of it, as combos will be more escapable now due to VI/vectoring and the whole rage effect thing. Regardless, it's nice people can't cancel out of hitstun anymore and that airdodges are actually punishable.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Personally I hate the idea of inescapeable combos. I don't view it as fun or in some cases, even fair.

 

[Prism]

Personally I hate the idea of inescapeable combos. I don't view it as fun or in some cases, even fair.

Why do you not find it fair? I find infinites and chaingrabs less fair than inescapeable combos personally.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Why do you not find it fair? I find infinites and chaingrabs less fair than inescapeable combos personally.

Infinite combos and chaingrabs are by definition inescapeable, I don't see why you are making a distinction between them. I dislike inescapeable combos which includes infinites and chaingrabs.

 

[Prism]

Infinite combos and chaingrabs are by definition inescapeable, I don't see why you are making a distinction between them. I dislike inescapeable combos which includes infinites and chaingrabs.

Welp, I literally made a fool of myself. Sorry, I don't know why but I was thinking you were saying escapable combos >_>

 

[WaltzForVenus]

i personally don't mind inescapable combo's...
i just wish the true combos were a bit longer.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Game looks awesome. While there aren't "Melee" combo-strings....there are still tons of different stunts to be pulled off.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

All long combos should be escapable eventually, but inescapable combos are not always problematic, especially if they are relatively short. It depends on a few things - the length of the combo, the damage done by the combo, the required input precision to continue the combo and, just in general, how large an impact on the stock the combo has. Inescapable 0-to-death combos should never be a thing.
I think Smash 4 has done it really well, for the most part. True combos a la many of Project M's can be exciting to watch for a while, but can become stale and predictable if all it requires is the aggressor going onto "autopilot"; seeing players adapt skilfully, use mix-ups and hard read/punish opponents is where the real excitement comes from.

 

[ferioku]

I Honestly doubt the offensive meta will be anything like brawl, it's a new game to even consider this imo.

Although this VI thing is starting to scare me, hopefully it won't affect the meta in a bad way...

 

[Diabolical]

Most of Melee's combos in competitive matches are escapable but since the game is played so quickly it's quite hard to DI effectively always. Best example is Jiggs up throw, Rest. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is hold left or right and you escape. But it's still very common for a Jiggs main to trap a player in this combo when done quickly and unexpectedly.
What about SMash4? Well if the game plays fast enough (or in anyway particular way where it's easy to trick opponents) then having little amount of True combos will still provide interesting competitive play. If it's very easy to escape all combos....lets say by just holding up on the circlepad/joystick, then the metagame will be defense orientated - just like Brawl.

 

[LordVacation]

I like it. :3
I can't wait to get this damn gameeee

 

[QuickRat]

Personally I hate the idea of inescapeable combos. I don't view it as fun or in some cases, even fair.

Per definition, a combo is "inescapable".

 

[Reila]

I personally LOVE LOVE LOVE that we have these "escapable combos". I used to love P:M but I honestly started to really dislike it because of the things you can do that the opponent literally can't escape from. I don't have fun watching someone get chain grabbed across FD. In my opinion, escapable combos mean players have to be smarter to get combos at higher levels of play, and that makes me so excited for this game to evolve.

I agree. Combos are great, but being locked to combos without the possibility of escaping them isn't fun at all.

 

[Renji64]

The combos in smash 4 suck they don't kill(Most of the time. They are easily escapeable. The meta seems to be reverting back to brawl more than anything. 1-2 hits back in netrual. I see the game going back to a campy defensive meta.

 

[Jaedrik]

Infinite combos and chaingrabs are by definition inescapeable, I don't see why you are making a distinction between them. I dislike inescapeable combos which includes infinites and chaingrabs.

False, partially. Chaingrabs were definitely escapable in Melee, and are still so in Project M.

0-to-death combos should never be a thing.

B-but muh Smash 64

Edit 2:
Ladies and gentlemen, there is an inescapable ultimatum we must eventually meet. Either we view extra damage in the form of relatively easy inputs compared to the neutral game as acceptable, or we do not. Any quibbling about degrees or arbitrary percent limits is silly as it does not distinguish an objective and qualitative nature that we can separate the combos into two neat categories.

Therefore, the best we can possibly do is to balance slightly all the time, to find which degrees of combo most people find acceptable. Competitive play often lends itself to having more of these than casual play. Now, we must choose.

 

[Ashpash]

It'll be interesting to see how difficult it is to pull some of those similar combos off against humans (skilled humans), but I actually like the idea of escapeable combos. I mean, realistically that's what separates smash bros from other fighting games based on infinite combos (they're 2 totally different breeds of fighting games)

The thing I've always loved most about smash is it's freedom of movement; in almost all other fighting games, your character is locked facing the direction of the opponent. I think movement will determine (and always has) what you can execute and escape in terms of combos.

Players with a better understanding of how their favourite character moves, and how their attacks move the opponent will be able to pull off combos and strings more effectively.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Instinct is being prioritized over execution in Smash 4. I think it's exciting to watch because the same thing never happens, the game doesn't allow it with all of the variables now in place.

 

[Awake514]

I personally prefer the either-or as it all depends on the character. I mean other fighting games for example have characters that have the inescapable "vortex combos" while others rely on setups, frametraps and knockbacks, etc. This kind of gameplay is how were gonna set up ssb4 for the future and I say bring it on.

Melee is balls to the wall, go at your opponent and get him, Brawl is defend, defend, defend. This game looks to be in the middle and I LOVE IT.

 

[Raijinken]

I prefer followup-based non-true combos. If I want true combos, I'd play Street Fighter (and suck at it). Reading is more fun for me, so I quite like the current meta.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I prefer followup-based non-true combos. If I want true combos, I'd play Street Fighter (and suck at it). Reading is more fun for me, so I quite like the current meta.

You try to dodge, but take a look;
I can read you like a book.
Reading Rainbow!

More on topic, I prefer reads and followups ("strings") than true combos in Smash. If I wanted to get you halfway to dead from a single hit I'd just play Elizabeth in P4A.

 

[Roko Jono]

Seriously? Escapable combos? I'm a fan of combos in any game including smash. The point is not to get hit because you know... it's a 1on1 fighting game (in terms of 1v1). However, I do not like 0 to death combos as I think they take away from the real game. I like the 3 hit variation and occasionally some 5 hit juggle is always fun to do on people. If you think that's unfair... what the hell is fair to you? 1 hit back and fourths?

Escapable combos is what's dragging matches on and on until its a game of "who can hit their b-air first?"

Now if you could escape a combo because of "DI", that's okay, it rewards you for knowledge of the string.

This got a little rant'ey :[

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I'm pretty sure this game will have a net defensive meta, but unlike Brawl's meta, this one will be done right. We'll be seeing players default towards generally defensive play, but when successful approaches are made, we'll see a switch towards some offensive play. Combos, tons of viable movestrings, etc lead towards offensive play being much more rewarded than in brawl.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Combos in this game aren't that long, but they will be tricky, especially with the whole vectoring thing. Since it doesn't affect hit stun, in theory vectoring away can put you in a bad position if the character can chase you.

Say you're Greninja, and you do D-tilt > Dash Up smash, you can chase the opponent with a double Jump Uair and combo do to the IASA Frames on his U-smash. If the opponent Vectors (DI's) down then you'll probably miss, and the proper option would have to been to do a SH Uair. If he DI's up then the double Jump Uair would have linked. Or you can go for the other option to Fair and put the opponent in a situation when he could get edge gaurded.

I know this game isn't like Melee in terms of combos and creative approaches, but it does have some of those similarities. Teching is really important as wiggling out of a tumble is impossible and characters can act out of grounded links fairly well.

I have faith in this game. It's fun.

 

[TimeSmash]

Whereas Melee seems to be the tighter version between the two, Smash 4 kind of tests your improvisation (weirdly, akin to something like Panel de Pon). Melee had a lot of cut and dry combos that worked well in a lot of situations, and in Smash 4 follow ups are not always so guaranteed--that being said, you have to explore different paths and experiment to see what will work. Eventually, it could become Melee-like, where if you read your opponent's VI correctly, you can follow up with the right approach.

When the game is released in North America (like less than 2 weeks, HYPE), people are going to dissect it right away no doubt. With that happening, we'll probably see a lot more 3DS hacking and live streams than we do so now. When stuff like that happens, we'll learn more about game mechanics and exploits, evolving our meta hopefully. While Brawl is nice I'm much more in favor of an offensive oriented gameplay, or at least a defensive style that doesn't constantly revert to neutral and result in hit-and-run situations.

I mention this a lot in posts, but patching and petitions are a real thing now. I didn't think that Gamecube controller petition would go anywhere, and it might not have had any sway to actually produce those controllers, but the demand was there, and Nintendo complied. Although Sakurai is picky when it comes to catering to the competitive crowd, if the mechanics are truly so game breaking and we speak out about it in a rational, non-flaming way, patching the game is quite possible.

 

[Ridel]

I feel the game will be somewhat defensive on the ground but not as much as Brawl. This I think is mainly due to low shield stun but Pivot Tilts, low shield resistance, and faster ground speed in general due compensate for this slightly. Grabs look like good options because of low shield stun and some have guaranteed follow-ups , like Mario's D-Throw into U-Tilt or D-Tilt and Rosalina's D-Throw into U-Air. The air however looks great, and this is mostly due to the punishable Air-Dodges and less landing lag on most aerials. Though I think the icing on the cake are the new ledge mechanics which encourage off-stage edge-guarding. Once people get comfortable with the games physics and their character I think people will be more inclined to go directly off stage to gimp an opponent especially since the blast zones are significantly further back and the ledge is a little bit easier to grab (not in terms of Ledge-Snap) than in previous iterations.

The biggest problem with this game is just that people won't damn DIE! It takes forever to kill an opponent and this is mostly due to the increased blast zones. I think KOing people of the top is not going to be recommended because of the high blast zones combined with Vectoring make it very hard to do that and that's why I think off stage edge-guards are going to be the norm.

But overall it's looking pretty good, we will just have to wait and see but I can tell you one thing....................................................THIS WILL MOST CERTAINLY BE FASTER THAN BRAWL BY A LONG SHOT!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mention this a lot in posts, but patching and petitions are a real thing now. I didn't think that Gamecube controller petition would go anywhere, and it might not have had any sway to actually produce those controllers, but the demand was there, and Nintendo complied. Although Sakurai is picky when it comes to catering to the competitive crowd, if the mechanics are truly so game breaking and we speak out about it in a rational, non-flaming way, patching the game is quite possible.

It may also be an option that, if a game-breaking exploit is discovered that has major balance implications, to simply publicize it and spread the word as much as possible via Youtube, etc. Although it's a different game entirely, TF2 has a history of various exploits being patched pretty quickly after video personalities bring them into public view. This may be due to the sudden increase in people who know how to perform the exploit in question, which makes patching it out all the more urgent.

Food for thought.

 

[Raijinken]

I feel the game will be somewhat defensive on the ground but not as much as Brawl. This I think is mainly due to low shield stun but Pivot Tilts, low shield resistance, and faster ground speed in general due compensate for this slightly. Grabs look like good options because of low shield stun and some have guaranteed follow-ups , like Mario's D-Throw into U-Tilt or D-Tilt and Rosalina's D-Throw into U-Air. The air however looks great, and this is mostly due to the punishable Air-Dodges and less landing lag on most aerials. Though I think the icing on the cake are the new ledge mechanics which encourage off-stage edge-guarding. Once people get comfortable with the games physics and their character I think people will be more inclined to go directly off stage to gimp an opponent especially since the blast zones are significantly further back and the ledge is a little bit easier to grab (not in terms of Ledge-Snap) than in previous iterations.

The biggest problem with this game is just that people won't damn DIE! It takes forever to kill an opponent and this is mostly due to the increased blast zones. I think KOing people of the top is not going to be recommended because of the high blast zones combined with Vectoring make it very hard to do that and that's why I think off stage edge-guards are going to be the norm.

But overall it's looking pretty good, we will just have to wait and see but I can tell you one thing....................................................THIS WILL MOST CERTAINLY BE FASTER THAN BRAWL BY A LONG SHOT!

This covers my opinions pretty well. The wide blast zones are the only thing I dislike so far (not that I want them anywhere near Melee-Yoshi's close). Still a really fun game, and the offstage stuff (and fastfall canceling with an attack) make it really fun to dive deep and, with practice, not have to worry that much about SDing.

 

[Renji64]

RIP skiled battles and true combos.

 

[Raijinken]

It may also be an option that, if a game-breaking exploit is discovered that has major balance implications, to simply publicize it and spread the word as much as possible via Youtube, etc. Although it's a different game entirely, TF2 has a history of various exploits being patched pretty quickly after video personalities bring them into public view. This may be due to the sudden increase in people who know how to perform the exploit in question, which makes patching it out all the more urgent.

Food for thought.

It's amazing to see how fast a bug in Dota gets patched if DotaCinema makes a video about it.

Though it'll be a bit harder to get that level of publicity for the 3DS version, since capture cards are far rarer amongst 3DS users than console streamers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All of you keep using the word combo incorrectly.

Its really pissing me off

 

[Ridel]

All of you keep using the word combo incorrectly.

Its really pissing me off

Can you define it then some people have a different perception of what a combo is/isn't?

I for example see a combo as a combination of follow-ups and reads to rack up damage quickly with out harm.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thats not a combo. That is defined as safe pressure.

Combo = A string of attacks in which, after the first hit connects the rest of the hits are guaranteed to land.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think anyone who thinks that combos are everything in a competitive game regardless of design have no idea what the concept of patience is. A game based around offensive reads to land strings of hits after a tense moment in neutral? That sounds like Street Fighter 2 to me, more in particular, Super Turbo,, which has combos that, at a consistent basis, go on for 4-5 hits MAX reliably. I play Guile in Super Turbo, Guile mirrors are matches of intense neutral, sonic boom control, and offensive reads. I find that intriguing. I find Smash 4 intriguing because it looks to promote strong but not unhealthy neutral that will allow the player who takes control to run the offensive if they make smart decisions.

I don't get it, people are like "Yeah I wanna play this look at this game" and then the minute they have to change anything in a series that has already proven THREE TIMES IN A ROW NOW to have consistent mechanical changes, they cry wolf. It's so strange to me, I can't imagine where the Street Fighter series would be right now if this was a problem they had. Probably dead and buried.

Like I'm not trying to be a jerk but we have not one, but TWO versions of Melee within our community already and that game has a healthy lifespan and playerbase as is. Going forward, this game makes interesting design choices that are by all definitions risky, and rather than embrace and try to figure them out, people do this.

I'm not saying you have to love the game, but for the love of god, a different mechanic that hasn't even been fully fleshed out yet(a week old, a WEEK.) and already this kind of thing is happening. This is absolutely depressing coming from someone who's played other fighting games competitively.

RIP skiled battles

Also, in what world does being good at neutral and punish game constitute as a lack of skill? You don't see me as an ST player going to SF4 players and saying they suck because their game's meta is weird(which it is to me, for the record).

 

[Ridel]

Thats not a combo. That is defined as safe pressure.

Combo = A string of attacks in which, after the first hit connects the rest of the hits are guaranteed to land.

Okay so that is "your" definition. I don't necessarily disagree with it but you can view it in whatever way you want.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel this game is the love child of Super Turbo and Brawl.

This thought pleases me.

@ Ridel No. There is only one definition of a combo and its been the same for all fighters since Ryu was doing low forward canceled into hadouken.

 

[Ridel]

I feel this game is the love child of Super Turbo and Brawl.

This thought pleases me.

@ Ridel No. There is only one definition of a combo and its been the same for all fighters since Ryu was doing low forward canceled into hadouken.

Okay well this isn't Street Fighter this is Smash and combos function differently in both games. I don't even think combos are even guaranteed in Melee all the time because the opponent could DI it, and it is up to the player to READ said DI and follow up on it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A chain grab is a combo FYI. Also the game doesnt matter. Want a game like smash? Power Stone, Onimusha Blade Warriors, PS All-Stars, etc. All have combos. So does Smash.

What you are describing is putting your opponent in "The State of Disadvantage."

Oh snap...I wrote an article about this ish years ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/

 

[Khao]

With combos as short as they are, and with them only being possible at low percentages, then yes, I think "inescapable" combos are awesome. Unless we end up with 0>death inescapable combos, or ones that leave you above 100% or something, I don't see anything bad about them.

But that's not to say that strings are freaking great and fun to watch/do anyway.

Either way, I'm really, really happy that this game is not like Brawl in that most of the time, your opponent actually recovers from your attacks faster than you do, because that's super silly. As long as you're moving and on your way to do a follow-up before your opponent's hitstun is over, then you'll still be at an advantage after successfully connecting an attack. And that's enough for me.