Sm4sh's Offensive Meta... so far (Community Response)

[2ndComing]

If I REALLY NEED TO I will edit the post to say combo-strings, I have been using combo in terms of combo strings. I know what a combo is and I mean the meta will escapable strings that lead to kills.

appreciate all the discussion tho guys, didn't think anyone would even pay attention to this

 

[Ridel]

A chain grab is a combo FYI. Also the game doesnt matter. Want a game like smash? Power Stone, Onimusha Blade Warriors, PS All-Stars, etc. All have combos. So does Smash.

What you are describing is putting your opponent in "The State of Disadvantage."

Oh snap...I wrote an article about this ish years ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/

Well because of DI they can move to the left or right after they are thrown and you have to READ their DI to re-grab them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If the DI has no chance of doing anything or there is no need to adjust spacing or timing then it is a combo. If the DI does allow one to move away then it was merely an opportunity for a follow-up.

Get me?

 

[Ridel]

A chain grab is a combo FYI. Also the game doesnt matter. Want a game like smash? Power Stone, Onimusha Blade Warriors, PS All-Stars, etc. All have combos. So does Smash.

What you are describing is putting your opponent in "The State of Disadvantage."

Oh snap...I wrote an article about this ish years ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/

Well they can DI left or right when thrown and you have to READ their DI to be able to re-grab them. I don't disagree that what you said is the definition of a combo, I just feel when it comes to Smash comboing is a little bit more than just guaranteed follow-ups.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

A little more hitstun would really have done wonders for this game, it wouldn't make for ridiculously stupid combos like in PM, but it'd guarantee a few more follow-ups, like Mario being able to connect U-Tilt to U-Air at decent percentages.

 

[TTTTTsd]

A little more hitstun would really have done wonders for this game, it wouldn't make for ridiculously stupid combos like in PM, but it'd guarantee a few more follow-ups, like Mario being able to connect U-Tilt to U-Air at decent percentages.

He can do that pretty reliably at lower %s but I'm gonna guess you mean middling %s. Not gonna lie though, more hitstun would've been cool, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I got!

 

[Raijinken]

I prefer move followup attack string chase things where you have to read the opponent's trajectory and options in order to continue the assault. Whether or not those are "combos" or not is irrelevant to me, they're what make the game fun and skilled.

Well they can DI left or right when thrown and you have to READ their DI to be able to re-grab them. I don't disagree that what you said is the definition of a combo, I just feel when it comes to Smash comboing is a little bit more than just guaranteed follow-ups.

He's being book-technical in a case where being precise only complicates the discussion. It's a lot like demanding a distinction between a "combo" and a "true combo". It doesn't really contribute anything to the conversation, it just attempts to override popular terminology with dictionary terminology.

 

[Jaedrik]

Okay so that is "your" definition. I don't necessarily disagree with it but you can view it in whatever way you want.

Bro, what the heck?
There is no language commissar, it is a spontaneous and beautiful thing, you are correct, but you MUST recognize that language is a normative thing, that is, it implies a norm which 'defines' the word, which may change over time. It is freely built and naturally ordered.

Therefore, you are using the word improperly when you deny the common use by the community which is more intimately familiar with these terms, namely the competitive community.

 

[Roko Jono]

Thats not a combo. That is defined as safe pressure.

Combo = A string of attacks in which, after the first hit connects the rest of the hits are guaranteed to land.

Exactly. If I hit someone with Ike's fair, let them get back to the ledge, see that they're going to ledge roll so I fair again after his roll, is that a combo? No! I hit my opponent twice with a fair. I didn't combo it...

I think anyone who thinks that combos are everything in a competitive game regardless of design have no idea what the concept of patience is. A game based around offensive reads to land strings of hits after a tense moment in neutral? That sounds like Street Fighter 2 to me, more in particular, Super Turbo,, which has combos that, at a consistent basis, go on for 4-5 hits MAX reliably. I play Guile in Super Turbo, Guile mirrors are matches of intense neutral, sonic boom control, and offensive reads. I find that intriguing. I find Smash 4 intriguing because it looks to promote strong but not unhealthy neutral that will allow the player who takes control to run the offensive if they make smart decisions.

I don't get it, people are like "Yeah I wanna play this look at this game" and then the minute they have to change anything in a series that has already proven THREE TIMES IN A ROW NOW to have consistent mechanical changes, they cry wolf. It's so strange to me, I can't imagine where the Street Fighter series would be right now if this was a problem they had. Probably dead and buried.

Like I'm not trying to be a jerk but we have not one, but TWO versions of Melee within our community already and that game has a healthy lifespan and playerbase as is. Going forward, this game makes interesting design choices that are by all definitions risky, and rather than embrace and try to figure them out, people do this.

I'm not saying you have to love the game, but for the love of god, a different mechanic that hasn't even been fully fleshed out yet(a week old, a WEEK.) and already this kind of thing is happening. This is absolutely depressing coming from someone who's played other fighting games competitively.


Also, in what world does being good at neutral and punish game constitute as a lack of skill? You don't see me as an ST player going to SF4 players and saying they suck because their game's meta is weird(which it is to me, for the record).

Excellent point. We shouldn't knock the games mechanics yet. My opinion on smash is that from melee and onward they are changing the game so it drastically plays differently which was a big issue. I personally want a game based off the previous that improves upon it, but not changes it completely. At least with street fighter you get different techniques but its mechanically the same game. You can space, play footsies, COMBO, throw fireballs, COMBO, and COMBO. I don't think much of the community has played other fighting games at a competitive level so their view on basic fighting game fundamentals are a little disjointed, which I can't blame them.

On a side note, if you like playing smash competitively you should definitely give other fighters a try. You might like it a lot. Game variety breeds strong players.

 

[Jaedrik]

He's being book-technical in a case where being precise only complicates the discussion. It's a lot like demanding a distinction between a "combo" and a "true combo". It doesn't really contribute anything to the conversation, it just attempts to override popular terminology with dictionary terminology.

This is the crux of many disagreements in the world.
The objective of those who use such tactics should be viewed as under-handed, for they attempt to manipulate the opinions of those who are otherwise ignorant with their twisting of words.
Further, they seek some facile power by quibbling about definitions and expressing their discontent with current usage so that they may paint the opponent in an unfavorable light. They do not address the principle, rather, they attack the people and trivial things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On a side note, if you like playing smash competitively you should definitely give other fighters a try. You might like it a lot. Game variety breeds strong players.

This is completely true.

Also in terms of Street Fighter 2, combos aren't very big, and when they do exist they're incredibly short. The game's main point is neutral and offense/defense, both are promoted across its relatively miniscule roster. Really the fundamentals of ST differ based on character to character.

Given that I play Guile, i don't combo a lot. Crossup into Cr.MP into Flash Kick is usually the most you'll see. Otherwise it's Sonic Boom, punish a mistake, or footsies, really.

Also ,Street FIghter(and plenty of other competitive fighters) drastically change over sequels. You can NOT play Street Fighter Alpha fundamentally(or even close to) the way you play ST. SF3 is a league of its own, SF4 can't be played like older games, etc. It's not really a new concept and it bothers me that people here are so intolerant of it and act like it hasn't happened with other series. Most players nowadays however, adapt fairly well on here, but there's always a few people that just...astonish me.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

He can do that pretty reliably at lower %s but I'm gonna guess you mean middling %s. Not gonna lie though, more hitstun would've been cool, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I got!

I'm satisfied too, aside from that I'm pretty content on everything else, and the hitstun is still rather close to how I wanted it too, so no big complaints from me, mostly nitpicking at this point.

 

[Raijinken]

This is the crux of many disagreements in the world.
The objective of those who use such tactics should be viewed as under-handed, for they attempt to manipulate the opinions of those who are otherwise ignorant with their twisting of words.
Further, they seek some facile power by quibbling about definitions and expressing their discontent with current usage so that they may paint the opponent in an unfavorable light. They do not address the principle, rather, they attack the people and trivial things.

Connotation and Denoatation are both important, but only connotation is truly relevant in a conversation. In both cases here, we have the textbook definition of a combo in a fighting game here (unavoidable followup attacks), and the standard layman's definition (followup attack that connects). Both exist in the game, both are useful.

This is completely true.

Also in terms of Street Fighter 2, combos aren't very big, and when they do exist they're incredibly short. The game's main point is neutral and offense/defense, both are promoted across its relatively miniscule roster. Really the fundamentals of ST differ based on character to character.

Given that I play Guile, i don't combo a lot. Crossup into Cr.MP into Flash Kick is usually the most you'll see. Otherwise it's Sonic Boom, punish a mistake, or footsies, really.

While it's great to try other games, it's also important to note that they all play differently, and skill in one doesn't translate 1:1 to skill in another. I've played Smash for ages, and I'm average (might try to do some online tourneys now with 4, but that's now, not then), but no matter how much I try VS Capcom and SF and anything else, I'm just bad at their mechanics and (especially since I don't enjoy them as much as the platforming focus of Smash) don't really desire to improve in those. For players like me, trying other fighting games is a good way to appreciate the differences and skills offered by each, but isn't necessarily a good way to improve at any of them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My goal here to get everyone to agree on the norm for which the word is used. Yes definitions change over time. But if there is an established definition thats not confusing, why come up with one that conflicts with the original?

When you say the word combo, EVERYONE should know what you are talking about.

This is a real point of contention among the community and leads to needless confusion.

 

[Raijinken]

My goal here to get everyone to agree on the norm for which the word is used. Yes definitions change over time. But if there is an established definition thats not confusing, why come up with one that conflicts with the original?

When you say the word combo, EVERYONE should know what you are talking about.

This is a real point of contention among the community and leads to needless confusion.

It's a valiant if idealistic goal. Not even proper dictionaries can get people to use words the same way.

 

[Morbi]

Only in Smash would the community actually want combos that you can escape from... only in Smash.

Honestly, I do believe that this "offensive" meta-game is a defensive meta-game, so I am not overly fond of it. However, the community in general is happy, so I am happy.

 

[Roko Jono]

While it's great to try other games, it's also important to note that they all play differently, and skill in one doesn't translate 1:1 to skill in another. I've played Smash for ages, and I'm average (might try to do some online tourneys now with 4, but that's now, not then), but no matter how much I try VS Capcom and SF and anything else, I'm just bad at their mechanics and (especially since I don't enjoy them as much as the platforming focus of Smash) don't really desire to improve in those. For players like me, trying other fighting games is a good way to appreciate the differences and skills offered by each, but isn't necessarily a good way to improve at any of them.

Unfortunately, there really is no game like smash so not a lot of smash skills transfer over. One thing that does though, is the competitive mindset. Things like asking yourself how could I have done that better? Why didn't this work? Thinking that and answering that on your own definitely transfers over. Some people don't think of things like that, never improve, and never wonder why.

Generally speaking, it's good to have game variety. Fun fact though, there are a lot of top level fighting game players that came from smash64 when it was big. Could be coincidence, but it was nice to hear that.

Edit: Ah but I don't want to go too much off topic. I am currently slightly satisfied with the offensive meta, but the stuff you can do out of shield right now is still very strong. Plus rolling is damn fast in this game and is harder to punish. Being offensive and even whiffing some moves doesn't seem so punishing either since landing lag is heavily reduced.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record I like the meta. Leans towards intelligent neutral and the reward is enough to promote aggression and offensive footsies.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

A significant part of the reason the term "combo" is a point of contention among the Smash fanbase is that Smash has different rules from other fighters in that regard. In other fighting games, once a combo starts your opponent can go fully auto-pilot on you, barring comeback mechanics that force them to change it up (for example, assists that summon another entity to perform a specific attack after a brief delay and can be activated while in hitstun, or a meter that when full, allows you to break out of hitstun with a launching attack to turn a match around). In Smash, even when you're stuck in hitstun you have Directional Influence at your disposal to force your opponent to make educated guesses as to what move will continue the "combo".

The reason Smash Bros can have what is known as an "escapable combo" is that a combo can be defined as "a string of attacks that connect in sequence without the opponent leaving — or having the opportunity to leave — hitstun". In most fighting games, that makes it inescapable barring specific comeback mechanics. In Smash, there's DI. Being that they're in hitstun, the target cannot take any offensive action against you that isn't a trap set beforehand, but that doesn't prevent you from having to make 50-50 guesses in order to keep the combo going. And thanks to the nature of knockback in Smash, the longer and farther the combo continues, the more likely those 50-50 guesses are to start becoming 33-67 or 25-75 guesses in the victim's favour.

 

[Crome]

So it has some combos, but once you get going they're escapable.
So, it's like in between melee and brawl

 

[Roko Jono]

So it has some combos, but once you get going they're escapable.
So, it's like in between melee and brawl

Haha, that made me chuckle for how right you are

Edit: Holy crap, you have deciphered the hidden message of smash4. I applaud you

 

[TTTTTsd]

So it has some combos, but once you get going they're escapable.
So, it's like in between melee and brawl

....Damn. That's....surprisingly accurate. You got me dude

 

[da K.I.D.]

Rokojono is full of crap

Spacing, timing, zoning, reading, option coverage, understanding matchups and mind games are universal concepts that apply across all fighting games smash included. If you cant see the massive number of similarities between all fighters in this regard it just means you arent good enough and dont understand the game well enough yet

 

[Gidy]

Inescapable combos are pleasuring and they are a highlight in Project M and Melee for me. Smash 4 has combos, but from what I've heard you have to be more creative and flexible with them, which is fine. However, the amount of combos allowed with VI is still unknown, so we all have wait and see how this turns out. I just hope there are more combos then there aren't. If not, RIOT!

 

[Roko Jono]

Rokojono is full of crap

Spacing, timing, zoning, reading, option coverage, understanding matchups and mind games are universal concepts that apply across all fighting games smash included. If you cant see the massive number of similarities between all fighters in this regard it just means you arent good enough and dont understand the game well enough yet

Whoa whoa, calm down

I was just replying to the guy. He said himself hes average so there's much to learn. Everyone starts somewhere right. I don't disagree with you, those are all good fighting game fundamentals. I mentioned fundamentals in a previous post somewhere, but ya totally agree with what you just said. I believe we're both on the same team regarding game variety breeding strong players. I believe UltraDavid said that to be exact

 

[RanserSSF4]

I prefer followup-based non-true combos. If I want true combos, I'd play Street Fighter (and suck at it). Reading is more fun for me, so I quite like the current meta.

and yet, most of the smash community don't approve of that, but don't mind it in other fighting games...*Sign* well everyone will have different opinions, which I'm fine with, but still!

 

[popo12]

I'm really not liking the lack of true combos, personally. Early impressions were giving me the impression that there would be a lot of true combos, but in practice it seems like there's only a few and at low percents. I understand the frustration of being caught in an overly long combo (Marvel), but true combos are really important to balancing offense and defense. Part of the reason that most of the top characters in Brawl are zoners is because there aren't enough combos to punish them. If you're playing a rushdown character like Falcon against a zoner like Olimar, you have to put a lot of work into getting through his defenses. And if you can't get anything out of it when you get there, there's really no reason to try. I'm liking the looks of this game so far, and it certainly feels much better than Brawl, but I'm afraid that it could become really dull if people don't start finding new ways to make offense work.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

Seriously? Escapable combos? I'm a fan of combos in any game including smash. The point is not to get hit because you know... it's a 1on1 fighting game (in terms of 1v1). However, I do not like 0 to death combos as I think they take away from the real game. I like the 3 hit variation and occasionally some 5 hit juggle is always fun to do on people. If you think that's unfair... what the hell is fair to you? 1 hit back and fourths?

Escapable combos is what's dragging matches on and on until its a game of "who can hit their b-air first?"

Now if you could escape a combo because of "DI", that's okay, it rewards you for knowledge of the string.

This got a little rant'ey :[

Didn't read the entire thread, but wanted to reply to and agree with this post.

Combos are staples of fighting games. Smash has always been a very different type of fighting game, but not having combos is really a bad thing imo. Infinites (combos and grabs) are bad especialyl if they are easy to do, but a 2-4 hit combo based off of the opponent's character+hit % is a good thing. Having all combos being escapable puts too much luck into it and doesn't punish the guy for getting caught in it enough. Seeing as how the % to get KO'd is fairly high, I think having combos is a good thing as it is a sure and quick way to rack up %. I'm not too much of a fan of just poking guys or knocking them away and playing that hit-and-run type of style. Some characters being built that way is cool, but having the overall meta-game revolve around that is much more boring to play and to watch.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah the good news is, as far as Mario goes, Low % stuff hasn't been deconfirmed yet....YET, anyways. I doubt it will if VI works the way most people speculate it does.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Even if Smash 4 primarily has strings rather than combos (and we've seen quite a few true combos around), as long as these strings succeed in creating pressure when on the offence, the game has done its job. That's not to say actual combos aren't extremely hype, but as long as strings succeed in limiting the victim's options while guaranteeing at least a few hits we're still going to get a meta where offence is actually a thing.

And to be honest, anyone who's afraid that this game is going to devolve into fishing for raw kill moves at high percents is deluding themselves. You can't land a raw kill move in Smash 4. It simply does not happen unless your opponent screws up horribly. Rolls, sidesteps, out-of-shield options, and IASA frames on the aforementioned kill moves are far too strong for truly raw kill moves to ever hit. You're almost certainly going to have to string something together to get enough of an advantage that you can actually get a read that results in a kill, even if it's just pressuring the foe to the ledge to reduce their mobility options. How do I know this? I've played the demo. The vast majority of the time, I don't land a kill as Mario without first pressuring my opponent off the edge and forcing them to recover. You know, there's one major disadvantage to recovery moves with so much distance on them: They often last far longer than they need to if you can force the foe into being unable to grab the ledge. And with most characters' ground speed being as fast as it is, it's entirely possible to predict where they're going to land (in helpless fall, mind you) and wait for them with a charging Smash Attack. Unless you're fighting Villager. The only reason that ever works on him is because the CPU is stupid and recovers super-high with the Lloid Rocket.

 

[Sleeplost]

So the anger behind escape-able combos is definitely a thing. I can see why, there's a huge following the whole "Hype" and "instincts and reflexes" playstyle, but at the same time it's not that bad of a thing. Inescapeable combos, although not bad, were never fun to those who didn't know the Smash Melee or even Smash 64 meta. Smash 4 and Brawl's playstyle aren't "Hype". No. You're right.
INSTEAD, they're sorta like baseball. NOT A SPECTATOR SPORT. It's more fun to be in the game, thinking, making reads, so that you can trap the opposite player into a set of simple combos allowing you to smoothly transition in-and-out of aggressive play and defensive play.
Melee and Project M, although having defensive maneuvers, FEED off of the aggressive combo play. That is the soul of Melee and PM.
While-as Brawl and seemingly SM4SH use a very medium paced play. Think, move in, move out.

Whether or not someone wants to admit it, escapeable combos aren't a bad thing and only add to the meta.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I re-watched SHI gaming's tournament in parts on their youtube channel. Greninja is an aggressive, combo-heavy monster. Greninja completly shutted down DHD's camping when Nietono got close and nietono used Pac-man's fire hydrant to his advantage and it was a clever way to use it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Saw Sheik do a D-throw>Fair> Fair > SH Uair. Was pretty sweet.

I've done a few Sheik combos myself like SH Fair > -F-tilt > SH Nair > F-tilt > Fair.

With Pit I can D-throw>SH of Full Hop Nair > Fair on most if the cast. On Ganon and Fox I can SH Nair > Fair > Fair, or I can land on the ground and try to bait the Air Dodge and go for an U-smash.

With Falcon you can chain Uairs into his Up B like in 64. I once did D-throw > Full Hop Nair > Uair > U- tilt ( it spikes now so it dragged them into the ground) jab, jab > Dash D-throw> Fair.

Samus I did Full Hop Bair>Nair (weak hit) U-smash. On most characters at low percents she can D-throw > SH Nair > F-tilt / F-smash.

I know they aren't as dope as Melee's combo game but there is still potential, especially with pivot tilts and spike ground bouncing. Some characters do have more strings than others, but I feel like everybody has some.

 

[Renji64]

That moment when ps allstars has true combos and smash 4 doesn't

 

[Chimera]

That moment when ps allstars has true combos and smash 4 doesn't

You should play that game. I heard it's like, so good. Everyone loves it, and it's very popular.

 

[Renji64]

You should play that game. I heard it's like, so good. Everyone loves it, and it's very popular.

no thanks i like my games with tripping in them.

 

[Ridel]

no thanks i like my games with tripping in them.

I hate tripping but love Brawl.............................What does that make me?!

 

[Renji64]

I hate tripping but love Brawl.............................What does that make me?!

A guy who likes brawl?

 

[Ridel]

A guy who likes brawl?

...............................Yeah that statement didn't really make sense now that I look at it.

 

[Renji64]

...............................Yeah that statement didn't really make sense now that I look at it.

Gud.