Sm4sh's Offensive Meta... so far (Community Response)

[Rich Homie Quan]

Inescapable sequences of moves exist in this game.

At the same time, the game rewards defensive play due to unlimited air dodges, VI, etc.

It ends up being a really odd mix. Smash 4 really is its own thing. The meta is going to reward players for being both offensive and defensive. Matches will default to defensive play until there is a moment opportunity, and that's where the sheik player goes and whoops the other guys ass.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

Whether or not someone wants to admit it, escapeable combos aren't a bad thing and only add to the meta.

I don't think people are saying escapable combos are bad, it's the assumption/worry that practically all combos are escapable and that there aren't many true combos.

 

[Emblem Lord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5k9bfDAVE

Good example of the meta. Lots of spacing and trap abuse. I liked this match.

I love watching lil Rog

 

[Hydde]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5k9bfDAVE

Good example of the meta. Lots of spacing and trap abuse. I liked this match.

I love watching lil Rog

The game moves at good pace TBH. If thats whats to come for "high level" play, i think is much better than brawl´s.

With GC controllers it can get only better i guess?

 

[Ehn Jolly]

I myself don't understand everyone's love of combos, they're not my thing. I'm a solid to reset kind of person myself, and I know that's personal preference. Like I even enjoy watching Evo matches, but in high level Evo play for things like Blazblue, UMVC3, and such, it's literally "Capitalize one one mistake, END THE MATCH!" That's not what I want from a fighting game, and simply repeating the same combo whenever given the chance to pull it off doesn't appeal to me.

Like watch UMVC3 and then watch USF4. USF4 is a game based more around slower play and shorter combos, and yet still has a huge draw to it. I myself hate 0 to kill combos since they eliminate a lot of the gameplay to me, taking it from a full life bar to just one mistake deciding things. Things like Vectoring will make people not able to simply dial in their combos and have to take their opponent's responses into consideration, possibly lowering total number of hits and leading to longer matches.

To me, that seems like a good thing, but I can understand that it's simply my personal opinion here.

 

[Captain Norris]

If you haven't watched that Japanese tournament matches, you haven't seen real Smash 4 offense.

 

[HeavyLobster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5k9bfDAVE

Good example of the meta. Lots of spacing and trap abuse. I liked this match.

I love watching lil Rog

Not sure if I'd say that's representative of the meta because Little Mac and Sheik are two of the most aggro characters in the game. However, it's worth noting that even the campy matchups in this game are pretty action-oriented and can be fun to watch in their own way, as they tend to play out like shootouts rather than staredowns. Either way the meta is already pretty exciting.

 

[Captain Norris]

Not sure if I'd say that's representative of the meta because Little Mac and Sheik are two of the most aggro characters in the game. However, it's worth noting that even the campy matchups in this game are pretty action-oriented and can be fun to watch in their own way, as they tend to play out like shootouts rather than staredowns. Either way the meta is already pretty exciting.

did you watch the Japanese Greninja v Pac Man matches? They were intense!

 

[Phantomshadows]

did you watch the Japanese Greninja v Pac Man matches? They were intense!

Mind linking the match?

 

[Deathcarter]

Mind linking the match?

Probably the most intense Smash 4 gameplay I've personally seen thus far.

 

[Captain Norris]

Mind linking the match?

EDIT: 'd

 

[LancerStaff]

Probably the most intense Smash 4 gameplay I've personally seen thus far.

I don't really see what's so special. 'Course, I don't like watching Smash anyway.

 

[Captain Norris]

I don't really see what's so special. 'Course, I don't like watching Smash anyway.

People think the meta isn't offensive and mostly focuses on Defense. This video is probably the most offensive Smash match we have had yet. It is definitely a middle ground between brawl and Melee, but to me, anyway, it looks like it is actually more towards melee in that video. I dunno though.

 

[ferioku]

That moment when ps allstars has true combos and smash 4 doesn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS_rV3lfSpY
OK.

 

[Captain Norris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS_rV3lfSpY
OK.

Say what you want, but most of us would agree many of those are not true combos. They are combos and follow ups, but all of that is due to the reaction time of the player. For example, Mega Man can actually shield off of Mario's down throw. So that isn't a true combo universally, which is what @Renji64 was referring to.
HOWEVER, there are other true combos in the game. For example, Mario's fire ball to Forward CAN be a true combo, since the fireball has slight stun.

 

[ferioku]

Say what you want, but most of us would agree many of those are not true combos. They are combos and follow ups, but all of that is due to the reaction time of the player. For example, Mega Man can actually shield off of Mario's down throw. So that isn't a true combo universally, which is what @Renji64 was referring to.
HOWEVER, there are other true combos in the game. For example, Mario's fire ball to Forward CAN be a true combo, since the fireball has slight stun.

Sigh, whatever you say.

 

[Captain Norris]

Sigh, whatever you say.

You can disagree with me, and I agree taht is a "combo" in itself, but it is not a "true combo," as the definition implies.
That move can be shielded or air dodged after the second up tilt. Trust me, I am maining Mario for a tournament, and I know that at the very least.
A true combo is when one cannot escape the opponent through their own moves.

 

[ferioku]

You can disagree with me, and I agree taht is a "combo" in itself, but it is not a "true combo," as the definition implies.
That move can be shielded or air dodged after the second up tilt. Trust me, I am maining Mario for a tournament, and I know that at the very least.
A true combo is when one cannot escape the opponent through their own moves.

There have been many combo's that people couldn't escape, such as the Sheik forward air combo and apparently, captain falcon can stomp to Knee, not sure if that one is true though.

Either way, there are true combos in the game, the hit stun is much bigger than Brawls, I agree that it should have been a bit more melee like, though this isn't Smash Melee.

There may not be death combos, aka zero to death combos , but there are definitely true combos in this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksMduEXItBU Just look at that one. I'm guessing you will say that he got lucky by jumping on the rush coil, but he still combo'd him and Megaman didn't escape it, thus making it a true combo.

 

[Goesasu]

You can disagree with me, and I agree taht is a "combo" in itself, but it is not a "true combo," as the definition implies.
That move can be shielded or air dodged after the second up tilt. Trust me, I am maining Mario for a tournament, and I know that at the very least.
A true combo is when one cannot escape the opponent through their own moves.

And who on earth would enjoy a game where you cant do a thing once you get hit?

We already have MVC for that.

 

[HeavyLobster]

There have been many combo's that people couldn't escape, such as the Sheik forward air combo and apparently, captain falcon can stomp to Knee, not sure if that one is true though.

Either way, there are true combos in the game, the hit stun is much bigger than Brawls, I agree that it should have been a bit more melee like, though this isn't Smash Melee.

There may not be death combos, aka zero to death combos , but there are definitely true combos in this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksMduEXItBU Just look at that one. I'm guessing you will say that he got lucky by jumping on the rush coil, but he still combo'd him and Megaman didn't escape it, thus making it a true combo.

There are true combos in Brawl too. Honestly, what matters isn't really what technically is or isn't escapable, because most of the combos in Melee are technically escapable as well, and what really matters is how effectively characters can follow up after landing a hit, and how the game flows, and in this respect the game is much better than Brawl, as even though most follow-ups aren't guaranteed, you can still put pressure on your opponent and punish them effectively after landing a hit, either through reads or frame traps.

 

[King Donkey Kong]

And who on earth would enjoy a game where you cant do a thing once you get hit?

We already have MVC for that.

Nah it's totally fun to sit back and be 0-death'd because you got hit once.

Sarcasm btw.

I'm so glad this game is so different than melee. It'll be more fun to watch for sure. One combo into edgehog is a bore. Being KO'd at 70% is too fast, its a fighting game right? The more fighting the better.

 

[smashbrolink]

I personally love the escapable combos better.
It puts emphasis on mind-games over who hits first, and unlike an inescapable combo which is fire-and-forget once you've got the muscle memory and technique down, you've got to be on your toes and ready every single time you engage someone, with a combo that can't be easily auto-completed due to hit-stun.

Basically, I just find a person who can perform long combos under these circumstances to be more impressive than the alternative, even if the alternative is flashy. [Plus, inescapable combos favor speedy characters a bit too much for my liking, whereas escapable ones treat all equally.]

 

[Captain Norris]

There have been many combo's that people couldn't escape, such as the Sheik forward air combo and apparently, captain falcon can stomp to Knee, not sure if that one is true though.

Either way, there are true combos in the game, the hit stun is much bigger than Brawls, I agree that it should have been a bit more melee like, though this isn't Smash Melee.

There may not be death combos, aka zero to death combos , but there are definitely true combos in this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksMduEXItBU Just look at that one. I'm guessing you will say that he got lucky by jumping on the rush coil, but he still combo'd him and Megaman didn't escape it, thus making it a true combo.

And who on earth would enjoy a game where you cant do a thing once you get hit?

We already have MVC for that.

Now hold up. FIRST, I didn't say there was NOT true combos. I was saying the one you MENTIONED wasn't a true combo.
And I never said it was fun to take all the damage. I never said that. But, I will say it is fun to dish out the damage and generates hype. That is why people like them. Without true, inescapable combos, people will not enjoy watching tournaments as much because the game-play could potentially become stale (which is a reason as to why Brawl's "competitive" size did not grow).

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Now hold up. FIRST, I didn't say there was NOT true combos. I was saying the one you MENTIONED wasn't a true combo.
And I never said it was fun to take all the damage. I never said that. But, I will say it is fun to dish out the damage and generates hype. That is why people like them. Without true, inescapable combos, people will not enjoy watching tournaments as much because the game-play could potentially become stale (which is a reason as to why Brawl's "competitive" size did not grow).

I disagree with the bolded here. For me, tournies like USF4 (far less combos, and easily smaller scaled) make for a better experience than UMVC3, which are "First to the combo wins!" games. Combos are cool for me, but I like watching things that have a lot of back and forth play with momentum swings, not a combo heavy game where memorized combinations of long hit strings determine a match at the first mistake possible.

I accept that this is just my opinion, but I like a more technical game rather than a combo blitz fest, which to me feels more like showing off the long button combination that's been memorized.

 

[Captain Norris]

I disagree with the bolded here. For me, tournies like USF4 (far less combos, and easily smaller scaled) make for a better experience than UMVC3, which are "First to the combo wins!" games. Combos are cool for me, but I like watching things that have a lot of back and forth play with momentum swings, not a combo heavy game where memorized combinations of long hit strings determine a match at the first mistake possible.

I accept that this is just my opinion, but I like a more technical game rather than a combo blitz fest, which to me feels more like showing off the long button combination that's been memorized.

Oh I agree with you. I do not mean 0-death combos, like people apparently think I am referring to. I like the shorter, early percent "true" combos, make 0-30%. Short sweet, and fun.
I am more of a follow up kinda guy myself. I like reacting to my opponents' reactions.
But, yeah, I wasn't referring to everyone about what you bolded. It was more of a general statement, to a vaguer audience. I personally like to watch Brawl matches also.

 

[Ehn Jolly]

It's all cool then, I know I'm a 'wait and see' player, and it looks like SSB4 is going to cater to both types of players, which is something that I really look forward to. I don't mind early combos to start things up, but I don't want "Sheik end games Shulk for one punish."

I'm seriously happy about how this game looks, and it's going to be great to be apart of its evolving meta.

 

[Captain Norris]

It's all cool then, I know I'm a 'wait and see' player, and it looks like SSB4 is going to cater to both types of players, which is something that I really look forward to. I don't mind early combos to start things up, but I don't want "Sheik end games Shulk for one punish."

I'm seriously happy about how this game looks, and it's going to be great to be apart of its evolving meta.

honestly, I personally love seeing matches end on a Spike. The most satisfying ending for the one who let off the spike. :D