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Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

Radical Larry

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Now if only Whirling Leap could cause some very heavy windboxes, that would not only be awesome, but I can imagine opponents like Ike flinging themselves to the point where they can't recover. Basically the Gust Bellows but taller.

But aside from custom thoughts, I think ol' Foxy needs his recovery nerfed. Yep, free fall Fox Illusion with 10% less distance.
 

MarioMeteor

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Now if only Whirling Leap could cause some very heavy windboxes, that would not only be awesome, but I can imagine opponents like Ike flinging themselves to the point where they can't recover. Basically the Gust Bellows but taller.

But aside from custom thoughts, I think ol' Foxy needs his recovery nerfed. Yep, free fall Fox Illusion with 10% less distance.
Are you mad? Fox most certainly does not need his extremely gimpable recovery nerfed. He's already doomed against anybody with a somewhat decent offstage game.
 

Frihetsanka

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Why are we talking about nerfing Fox of all characters? He's not even top 5 on most tier lists. Let's focus on buffing and leave the nerfing to Nintendo*, shall we?

As for customs, I'm sceptical. Working on those would add another factor and make it more complicated. The assumption should be that people aren't using customs, but if they want to balance customs on the side I'd be okay with that.

*Or Bandai Namco, or Sora, I'm not sure which company is doing the patches.
 

Vincent_Leo

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If you think about it, since WP is such a high risk move, I could imagine the faces of people who play this mod and land the reverse or aerial reverse. The instant death concept isn't at all bad, since it's so predictable, and it's more of a touch-up than an actual thing to make it viable.

But of course, if we wanted a faster Warlock Punch with somewhat less power, we would just give Warlock Thrust more power. Say like the front deals 20% damage at the fist and the reverse deals 30% damage? And then the explosion deals like 14% or something.

Though I would want to see Thrust go all crazy with the size of the explosion, make it more viable for stage spikes.

Vincent_Leo Vincent_Leo Well, by which way do you mean it? I mean, all we should really just do is give the fist attack of normal Dark Dive a damage scale of 19%. What should really be done in terms of Ganondorf's customs is the Dark Vault and Wizard's Assault Customs. All I can think of would be:

Dark Vault getting a heavy damage increase to deal 12% damage per latch and release.
And Wizard's Assault coming out 5 frames faster and the aerial attack having a disjointed meteor hitbox throughout.

But then again, if @KuroganeHammer could PLEASE dig out some custom move frame data and put it on his site, that would be pretty swell and much appreciated.
Sorry but I'm a bit confused of what you said? D= I just wanted to know can you Get the Super Armor Dark fists custom move and make that Ganondorf's default Up B? The same goes for Wizards Dropkick, the one where he glides through the air?
 

Furret24

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Sorry but I'm a bit confused of what you said? D= I just wanted to know can you Get the Super Armor Dark fists custom move and make that Ganondorf's default Up B? The same goes for Wizards Dropkick, the one where he glides through the air?
If you mean swapping custom moves around to make Dark Fists Ganondorf's default up special, then no. Not yet anyway.

:162:
 

MarioMeteor

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Why are we talking about nerfing Fox of all characters? He's not even top 5 on most tier lists. Let's focus on buffing and leave the nerfing to Nintendo*, shall we?

As for customs, I'm sceptical. Working on those would add another factor and make it more complicated. The assumption should be that people aren't using customs, but if they want to balance customs on the side I'd be okay with that.

*Or Bandai Namco, or Sora, I'm not sure which company is doing the patches.
They aren't using them because they're jankly balanced. So, if we balance them...
 

MarioMeteor

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Jigglypuff could do with some aesthetic changes, considering she's a Fairy type. Her moves need magic effects.
 

Radical Larry

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Jigglypuff could do with some aesthetic changes, considering she's a Fairy type. Her moves need magic effects.
How about Rest has 8 different hitboxes that surround Jigglypuff, and depending on which ones hit sends the opponent in said direction? So Rest would be a potential vertical, meteor, semi spike or Sakurai Plz Angle attack. True magic it would be.

But in all seriousness, I want to digress the talk to give a potential suggestion for Link. Frame Data seems alright outside of F-Air, which should start Frame 12, but what it Link's sword and sword attack size increased in length by 20%? What I'm alluding to is that Link could have much longer-ranged sword attacks and a longer sword to fit, just to match his latest appearances of Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess, where the Master Sword wasn't the size of a toothpick that it is now.

This would make Link an opponent to fear in CQC since his range would make his attacks relatively safe.
 

Derpnaster

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Link and Marth have the same length sword. It's kinda nuts how far it hits, that sword hasn't been a dagger since brawl.

furthermore, Link is already feared in close quarters battle. Sure he has some sluggish startup, but if the player is keeping their wits about them and predicting like they should Link can kill as early as 50% and reliably around 100%.
 
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MarioMeteor

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If we're trying to be realistic about sword sizes, Ragnell and the Buster Sword should take up half the screen.
 

Radical Larry

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You got to understand that the speed of characters isn't reflected in Smash Bros.

Examples of fast in their series:
:4dedede::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link:

Examples of Fast in Smash Bros.:
:4littlemac:

I mean, Ike and Dedede are fast in their respective games, but Link and Ganondorf are a different story. Link is always fast and on his toes in his games, and in Skyward Sword, he can run extremely fast. And in Twilight Princess, when you see Ganondorf charging/running at you with his sword, he will RUN, not do the pansy thing in Smash Bros.

Oh, and another thing to point out...

Ganondorf jumps HIGH AS HELL in Twilight Princess.
He does not in Smash Bros.

Basically, every character is literally the opposite of what they are in their respective games.
 

Frihetsanka

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They aren't using them because they're jankly balanced. So, if we balance them...
There are a few reasons why I stopped using customs in normal play (aside from Miis).

#1: My local tournament scene doesn't allow them. If I'm used to playing against characters with customs, I would be at a disadvantage playing against, say, a Bowser that has a command grab instead of a slash.
#2: One of my main reasons for using customs in the first place was to buff weaker characters. If this project turns out to be successful, then customs won't be needed.
#3: Customs makes starting a game slightly longer, since I have to select customs for each character whenever I switch character.
#4: A lot of the customs are annoying to play against, such as Wii Fit Trainer's Jumbo Hoop or Donkey Kong's Kong Cyclone.

Some comments on these:

#1: This doesn't apply to non-tournament players, or tournament players that play in a region that allows customs. Furthermore, one could argue that playing this patch also puts one at a disadvantage in tournaments. That's true, although if we stick to some data buffs for the lower tiers, then I don't think the change will be all that significant. Changing moves, like customs do, is more significant.
#2: It's possible some characters (such as Ganondorf) would benefit more from customs being allowed than from whatever buffs they get here. Still, if this project works as intended, then customs won't be needed.
#3: One could argue that this is a pretty minor detail, and it is. Still, it's worth mentioning.
#4: You could just stick to non-annoying customs.

So, what happens if we do end up balancing customs? Do we balance the character with the assumption that they will use customs? In that case, characters with good customs will get fewer buffs than they should, and people using the standard set will be worse off compared to if we didn't balance customs at all. If we balance the characters with the assumption that they will use the standard set, but we also buff the customs, then those characters may end up overpowered with the customs. So perhaps it would be best to just balance the standard set and let people chose custom moves if they want, but those moves won't be buffed. This has the additional advantage in that it saves time.

Also, we shouldn't feel a strong need to have a character end up being high tier. Chances are characters like Little Mac and Ganondorf won't be high tier due to their glaring flaws in their design. A high tier Ganondorf would probably not be very fun to play against, for instance. I'm strongly against turning anyone's custom moves into standard.

As for Miis, I don't know. Perhaps it would be best to just focus on their main moves and skip the Specials altogether, since more tournaments allow customs for Miis than customs for all characters, but not all tournaments allow customs for Miis. For me personally it doesn't matter that much, since my local tournament just allows Guest 1111, which basically means that no one plays Miis, so I'd just be using Miis for fun.
 

ZeusLink

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You got to understand that the speed of characters isn't reflected in Smash Bros.

Examples of fast in their series:
:4dedede::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link:

Examples of Fast in Smash Bros.:
:4littlemac:

I mean, Ike and Dedede are fast in their respective games, but Link and Ganondorf are a different story. Link is always fast and on his toes in his games, and in Skyward Sword, he can run extremely fast. And in Twilight Princess, when you see Ganondorf charging/running at you with his sword, he will RUN, not do the pansy thing in Smash Bros.

Oh, and another thing to point out...

Ganondorf jumps HIGH AS HELL in Twilight Princess.
He does not in Smash Bros.

Basically, every character is literally the opposite of what they are in their respective games.
If Link had his Ocarina of Time frame data, he'd be unstoppable.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'll never understand why Jumpman has such a ****ty recovery.
Maybe because he couldn't jump very far in Donkey Kong.

Jokes aside, Mario's recovery isn't THAT bad, since his air mobility is rather good. Too bad that Cape is less effective at helping Mario's recovery than Gust Cape.
 

OwntheLoner

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You got to understand that the speed of characters isn't reflected in Smash Bros.

Examples of fast in their series:
:4dedede::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link:

Examples of Fast in Smash Bros.:
:4littlemac:

I mean, Ike and Dedede are fast in their respective games, but Link and Ganondorf are a different story. Link is always fast and on his toes in his games, and in Skyward Sword, he can run extremely fast. And in Twilight Princess, when you see Ganondorf charging/running at you with his sword, he will RUN, not do the pansy thing in Smash Bros.

Oh, and another thing to point out...

Ganondorf jumps HIGH AS HELL in Twilight Princess.
He does not in Smash Bros.

Basically, every character is literally the opposite of what they are in their respective games.
Little Mac's design never made much sense to me, especially the super armor on his smashes, which he doesn't even have in his own game.

I feel like he should've been made more like Street Fighter's Dudley, instead of making him just power through everything.
 

Derpnaster

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Being honest Link was never all that fast in later games, OoT and the other 64 games were the exceptio(No I'm not including Toon Link here) and it was more due to the system they were on than any actual intent. Furthermore in twilight princess Link was really not all that fast, which in no way means he wasn't agile. The thing is in Twilight princess Link was more about finding the weak spots of enemies and punishing it with his tools, such as using the hookshot to drag and stun flying foes, or arrows to take out sniper type enemies from a safe distance.
 

MarioMeteor

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Maybe because he couldn't jump very far in Donkey Kong.

Jokes aside, Mario's recovery isn't THAT bad, since his air mobility is rather good. Too bad that Cape is less effective at helping Mario's recovery than Gust Cape.
His air speed is incredible, I'll give you that, but Super Jump Punch gives you next to no distance aside from a slight diagonal leap. It's only saving grace is that it's invincible on startup. I actually used Super Jump instead of SJP for a while, until I realized just how godlike SJP is offensively.
There are a few reasons why I stopped using customs in normal play (aside from Miis).

#1: My local tournament scene doesn't allow them. If I'm used to playing against characters with customs, I would be at a disadvantage playing against, say, a Bowser that has a command grab instead of a slash.
#2: One of my main reasons for using customs in the first place was to buff weaker characters. If this project turns out to be successful, then customs won't be needed.
#3: Customs makes starting a game slightly longer, since I have to select customs for each character whenever I switch character.
#4: A lot of the customs are annoying to play against, such as Wii Fit Trainer's Jumbo Hoop or Donkey Kong's Kong Cyclone.

Some comments on these:

#1: This doesn't apply to non-tournament players, or tournament players that play in a region that allows customs. Furthermore, one could argue that playing this patch also puts one at a disadvantage in tournaments. That's true, although if we stick to some data buffs for the lower tiers, then I don't think the change will be all that significant. Changing moves, like customs do, is more significant.
#2: It's possible some characters (such as Ganondorf) would benefit more from customs being allowed than from whatever buffs they get here. Still, if this project works as intended, then customs won't be needed.
#3: One could argue that this is a pretty minor detail, and it is. Still, it's worth mentioning.
#4: You could just stick to non-annoying customs.

So, what happens if we do end up balancing customs? Do we balance the character with the assumption that they will use customs? In that case, characters with good customs will get fewer buffs than they should, and people using the standard set will be worse off compared to if we didn't balance customs at all. If we balance the characters with the assumption that they will use the standard set, but we also buff the customs, then those characters may end up overpowered with the customs. So perhaps it would be best to just balance the standard set and let people chose custom moves if they want, but those moves won't be buffed. This has the additional advantage in that it saves time.

Also, we shouldn't feel a strong need to have a character end up being high tier. Chances are characters like Little Mac and Ganondorf won't be high tier due to their glaring flaws in their design. A high tier Ganondorf would probably not be very fun to play against, for instance. I'm strongly against turning anyone's custom moves into standard.

As for Miis, I don't know. Perhaps it would be best to just focus on their main moves and skip the Specials altogether, since more tournaments allow customs for Miis than customs for all characters, but not all tournaments allow customs for Miis. For me personally it doesn't matter that much, since my local tournament just allows Guest 1111, which basically means that no one plays Miis, so I'd just be using Miis for fun.
I was thinking that we balance the characters and the customs separately. That way, Zelda and Jigglypuff are going to benefit by having their lacking customs buffed in addition to the standard buffs they'd receive, and Mario and Rosalina will only barely be buffed, considering that both of them are amazing in both standard and custom play.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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His air speed is incredible, I'll give you that, but Super Jump Punch gives you next to no distance aside from a slight diagonal leap. It's only saving grace is that it's invincible on startup. I actually used Super Jump instead of SJP for a while, until I realized just how godlike SJP is offensively.
Yeah, Super Jump really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch when you think it over. Whirling Leap, on the other hand, is a far superior recovery move than Spin Attack, but as a drawback, Link can't deal any damage with the move.

Similarly, Fly High gives Charizard better vertical distance than Fly, but it can't deal any damage. But when you think it over, how often does Fly get used offensively?
 

Radical Larry

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Yeah, Super Jump really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch when you think it over. Whirling Leap, on the other hand, is a far superior recovery move than Spin Attack, but as a drawback, Link can't deal any damage with the move.

Similarly, Fly High gives Charizard better vertical distance than Fly, but it can't deal any damage. But when you think it over, how often does Fly get used offensively?
Link's Shocking Spin is a better aerial move than his normal Spin Attack by far, despite having worse recovery. It sends the opponent at a pure and true Semi-Spike angle with some high knockback. It also connects the hits better and faster.

But for Whirling Leap, it's definitely the best with recovery. It also increases Link's air speed after usage, which to me is quite wonderful for Link. Now if only it had that Storm Punch windbox.
 

Slayonettaz

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Yeah, Super Jump really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch when you think it over. Whirling Leap, on the other hand, is a far superior recovery move than Spin Attack, but as a drawback, Link can't deal any damage with the move.

Similarly, Fly High gives Charizard better vertical distance than Fly, but it can't deal any damage. But when you think it over, how often does Fly get used offensively?
Fly can be used as a jank off the top kill to kill most medium weights around 60 if spaced right. It all comes down to the whole "set knockback on first and/or last hit" thing that we've seen with Peach and Roy before. In their cases the issue never really happens unless you really force it, but Fly doesn't link well and you tend to miss a few hitboxes so if you space it right, they get sent off the top right away. Otherwise, no I'm assuming actual Charizards don't use it very often. I do but I'm trash with him tbh.
 

Frihetsanka

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I was thinking that we balance the characters and the customs separately. That way, Zelda and Jigglypuff are going to benefit by having their lacking customs buffed in addition to the standard buffs they'd receive, and Mario and Rosalina will only barely be buffed, considering that both of them are amazing in both standard and custom play.
If I understand you correctly, what you're proposing is this: The customs that will be buffed are the ones that are currently underpowered. They will be buffed so they'll be around the same level as the default move. That way, a character like Jigglypuff could run 1111 or run custom moves and would remain at roughly the same powerlevel either way, thus making customs an option rather than straight up buffs. This would allow tournament players to play with customs off and still get to play with the fully buffed characters, while other players who prefers customs for other reasons other than just power may use those. Is this correct?
 

Radical Larry

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If we're going to make Underpowered Customs better, Link has 2, Ganondorf has 3.

We should really consider suggesting that Link's Ripperang and Big Bombs. I think that Link's Ripperang [I'm not going to stop calling it that] deal at least 2% to 4% damage on opponents, and have an extra shield damage value of +5%. As for Big Bombs, I think that a shorter detonation time would work in compensation to being unable to blow up on contact, as well as an increase of damage to 13%/9% from epicenter to furthest distance.

As for Ganondorf, there's Warlock Thrust, Dark Vault and Wizard's Assault. I'll talk about them more individually.

So there was a post wanting to have Warlock Punch be faster and less damaging, and I joked that was what Warlock Thrust would do if it had a damage increase. But, what if the damage were increased from 16% [fist] and 9% [explosion] to 24% [fist] and 12% [explosion], and the reverse deals 30% damage on fist?

As for Dark Vault, I think letting it deal 12% damage per release would give it some better offensive qualities, and adding a hitbox to the end of the move that will deal around 10% damage would work, too. Adding a 40% increase in horizontal distance would also benefit this custom move further.

And now to Ganondorf's most useless Custom Move in the game...Wizard's Assault. The devs tried to make it better, but in the end, it still sucks. What I propose is an overhaul to the attack to make it more powerful on ground and in air. On ground, make the move deal 30 BKB, while also dealing a good 150 KBG, making it kill very early in compensation for its speed. As well, since it's a slow attack, adding a shield damage value of +20% should make the move all the more dangerous to shielding opponents.. And in the air, one of two things can happen. Either Ganondorf should fly straight up, improving his recovery, or all of his entire aerial hitboxes are meteor smashes, even the shockwave itself.

As ridiculous as buffing Wizard's Assault in that manner is, it'll at least make it a viable move, right?
 

MarioMeteor

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If I understand you correctly, what you're proposing is this: The customs that will be buffed are the ones that are currently underpowered. They will be buffed so they'll be around the same level as the default move. That way, a character like Jigglypuff could run 1111 or run custom moves and would remain at roughly the same powerlevel either way, thus making customs an option rather than straight up buffs. This would allow tournament players to play with customs off and still get to play with the fully buffed characters, while other players who prefers customs for other reasons other than just power may use those. Is this correct?
Exactly. I've always seen customs as a different way to play the game, rather than just "my custom moves are jankier than yours" like it is now. This way, you get variety without sacrificing balance or vice-versa.
Yeah, Super Jump really isn't any better than Super Jump Punch when you think it over. Whirling Leap, on the other hand, is a far superior recovery move than Spin Attack, but as a drawback, Link can't deal any damage with the move.

Similarly, Fly High gives Charizard better vertical distance than Fly, but it can't deal any damage. But when you think it over, how often does Fly get used offensively?
I think what we should do with customs like Super Jump, Whirling Leap, Dolphin Jump, etc. is give them all windboxes. It won't make up for the crippling lack of reversals on their respective characters' parts, but it'll make them somewhat more desirable.
 
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All of this is a bit confusing. Fan patches are so much work.
 
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Radical Larry

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Oh, by the way, there should be only 3 changes to ROB that should really, really relieve me. I really hate how his Down Throw > Up Aerial can get a free and early kill, how his Gyro can easily edge-guard many characters and how often it can be used without disappearing, and his stupid Neutral Special's insane charge time.

So here are my proposed changes:
  • Attribute Statistics:
    • Item Toss Strength Reduced: 1.02 => 0.92
  • Throws:
    • Down Throw:
      • Angle Changed: 88 Degrees => 75 Degrees
  • Robo Beam:
    • Half-Charge Time-to-Charge Increased: 192 Frames => 360 Frames
  • Gyro (Option 1):
    • Gyro disappears upon impact of the opponent.
    • Gyro Shot Distance shortened by 20%
So what I propose is to make ROB's projectiles a lot more balanced. The Gyro is a completely annoying tool on opponents, and is very frustrating when opponents are trying to get back onto the stage and fail to do so. What should happen is instead of that, the Gyro should disappear upon connecting to an opponent, much like some other item-based projectiles [aside from Turnips]. This allows it to be less frustrating to deal with in the end. As well, Item Toss for ROB was reduced as to further fix the frustration, so that ROB doesn't throw the Gyro an incredible distance.

As for Robo Beam, I suggest the Half-Charge time be almost double of what it was because of it also being very, very annoying to deal with. So instead of over 3 seconds, it now takes a good six seconds for the entire thing to charge.

And finally with Down Throw, the angle of the attack was changed so that opponents can get out of it much more easily at higher damages, as to avoid very early kills from ROB. It can keep its KB, but it's not going to keep the angle at least.

What do you guys think of the suggestions? I thought of it after seeing a Smash Video where ROB's Gyro destroyed a recovering opponent.
 

MarioMeteor

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Oh, by the way, there should be only 3 changes to ROB that should really, really relieve me. I really hate how his Down Throw > Up Aerial can get a free and early kill, how his Gyro can easily edge-guard many characters and how often it can be used without disappearing, and his stupid Neutral Special's insane charge time.

So here are my proposed changes:
  • Attribute Statistics:
    • Item Toss Strength Reduced: 1.02 => 0.92
  • Throws:
    • Down Throw:
      • Angle Changed: 88 Degrees => 75 Degrees
  • Robo Beam:
    • Half-Charge Time-to-Charge Increased: 192 Frames => 360 Frames
  • Gyro (Option 1):
    • Gyro disappears upon impact of the opponent.
    • Gyro Shot Distance shortened by 20%
So what I propose is to make ROB's projectiles a lot more balanced. The Gyro is a completely annoying tool on opponents, and is very frustrating when opponents are trying to get back onto the stage and fail to do so. What should happen is instead of that, the Gyro should disappear upon connecting to an opponent, much like some other item-based projectiles [aside from Turnips]. This allows it to be less frustrating to deal with in the end. As well, Item Toss for ROB was reduced as to further fix the frustration, so that ROB doesn't throw the Gyro an incredible distance.

As for Robo Beam, I suggest the Half-Charge time be almost double of what it was because of it also being very, very annoying to deal with. So instead of over 3 seconds, it now takes a good six seconds for the entire thing to charge.

And finally with Down Throw, the angle of the attack was changed so that opponents can get out of it much more easily at higher damages, as to avoid very early kills from ROB. It can keep its KB, but it's not going to keep the angle at least.

What do you guys think of the suggestions? I thought of it after seeing a Smash Video where ROB's Gyro destroyed a recovering opponent.
Super Robo Beam is incredibly inconsequential and not deserving of a nerf. And rather than destroy his down throw, why don't you just nerf the KBG of the up air?
Honestly, these changes sound like they're based more on personal problems than actual balance issues.
 

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You kind of just took away ROB's two greatest tools in his entire arsenal. He's not even a top tier right now so why give him nerfs that will help make him drop to mid-tier? If anything, rob needs buffs to his neutral air damage or something. A lot of characters have semi-ridiculous stuff in this game but no one has anything game breaking. You can't just get rid of everything that has an inkling of jank in it cause then you'll just have a bunch of characters as basic as vanilla pit and mario.

PS: If you reply to this I'm in a different time-zone right now so expect a VERY late response
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,239
Location
Sweden
ROB nerfs? What's next, Toon Link nerfs? Let's stick with buffing, chances are Nintendo will nerf any character that proves to be too overpowered anyway (though this could be wishful thinking on my part).
 
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