Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[L9999]

Only for Wii U at the moment. Though what exactly can you offer? You mentioned you're a balance enthusiast, but would you mind elaborating on that a bit?

Well, I once made for fun a patch list for all the low tiers and mid tiers and I went all the way investigating what people thought and wrote down opinionated what could work and not break the balance. And I always had this though of "what if someone attempts a "Balanced Brawl" in Smash 4?" It was a long time ago, but can still make some suggestions, like to obscure understudies like Mii Swordfighter.

 

[Xermo]

You need an actual BR of competent figureheads to assist with legitimate balance changes. Having a thread full of "break my mains because I think I know exactly how they should be balanced" suggestions is gonna turn out disastrous.

But of course with this being a "fan" patch I'm sure you're probably aiming for something that these "fans" will enjoy instead of a much larger, stable mod.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If you want, I could help with some characters balance, although not with actually coding them

 

[Virum]

Allow me to elaborate on the Cloud stuff. Cloud of course is an excellent character. He's effective in a number of ways. My primary intention with the set of changes was not to overall buff or nerf him (overall this character I'd say is slightly nerfed if simply because of how notable the LCS nerf is) but to clean up and round out his design, particularly among a roster that would be receiving some quite notable buffs.

People tend to look at buffs and nerfs in a very black and white perspective but it's not that simple. The idea of these changes as a whole is to clean up the less intuitive elements of Cloud's overall gameplay. Would increasing the damage of jab, sourspot USmash or FAir, or increasing the nature of UTilt and NAir hitboxes really have that much of an effect of Cloud's overall effectiveness? Probably not when you actually put it into practice. HOWEVER, they do make elements of his kit feel better. UTilt clearly looks like it should hit behind Cloud yet time and time again it blind spots. FAir's motion, start-up and hitlag indicate that it really should be his strongest aerial yet it isn't.

The one change I will admit may be a little extraneous is the Finishing Touch intangibility but that would need to be put into practice. The move is still a heavy commitment (-42 on block after shield drop and if it doesn't kill you've wasted Limit) and for the most part requires a read as its confirms are rather impractical. It's a move that previously was completely overshadowed by LCS but between the nerfs of that and the adjustment to this gives it much more in the way of purpose due to the huge difference in how much earlier FT will kill.

Also people need to remember that this is very much a work in progress project. Plenty still needs to be done to other characters, so there's no need to be overly hasty or hostile in your responses.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

I've retracted any rule breaking statements about showing others how to mod, and I suggest everyone else to do the same.

I've also updated the download with another fix to Little Mac. From my edits, his Straight Lunge ground GFX were removed.

You need an actual BR of competent figureheads to assist with legitimate balance changes. Having a thread full of "break my mains because I think I know exactly how they should be balanced" suggestions is gonna turn out disastrous.

But of course with this being a "fan" patch I'm sure you're probably aiming for something that these "fans" will enjoy instead of a much larger, stable mod.

I would love to have as many competent BR as possible, but I'm not sure which BR members would be interested in such a thing.

If you want, I could help with some characters balance, although not with actually coding them

I think right now, I want to get more competent people to help out with the balancing of this mod. Nothing against you, but I don't want to be just letting anyone in.

 

[Zerp]

Just going to say that I think this is a wonderful idea and I'm definitely going to be keeping track of this project. And, while I'd personally love to help you out on what kind of changes Jigglypuff should receive, I'm not some sort of trusted community figure, so you can't really take my word for granted. So, since I'd still like to be somewhat helpful, if you can't get any top level Jigglypuffs, please at least check out this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/how-i-would-improve-jigglypuff-buffthepuff.433669/ , it's a very in-depth analysis of what kind of changes Jigglypuff should receive and was written by arguably the best Jigglypuff player in the world, I'm sure that'd be helpful.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've retracted any rule breaking statements about showing others how to mod, and I suggest everyone else to do the same.

I've also updated the download with another fix to Little Mac. From my edits, his Straight Lunge ground GFX were removed.

I would love to have as many competent BR as possible, but I'm not sure which BR members would be interested in such a thing.

I think right now, I want to get more competent people to help out with the balancing of this mod. Nothing against you, but I don't want to be just letting anyone in.

Alright.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I never said this mod was done. It's still a work in progress.

Instead of being reactionary, why not suggest changes yourself?

It was a mere jape. However, I stand true to my statement; Marth does need a few buffs. What shocks me more is that top tiers like Diddy and Cloud are getting buffs, but alas.

• Up Tilt deals 1% more across all hitboxes (from 5%/6%/9% to 6%/7%/10%), but it's overall knockback is compensated so the move functions no different to before in terms of knockback and KO power (I wouldn't really know values for this one, it would require testing to be correct). The frame 6 hitboxs are also increased in size a little (increased in the area between Marth's body and his arm), to prevent the move from whiffing on certain characters at close range.
• Down Smash improved in some capacity. It's currently extremely hard to space, and the untipped hitboxes are very weak, unsafe, and unrewarding. It doesn't even need to be noticeably improved. Simply like so would make it a bit better move that might be considered useful in a few situartions: Front hit damage increased by 1% (8%/12% to 9%/13%), and just the sour back hit increased by 1% (12% to 13%). These changes would at least make Down Smash a little more rewarding on hit.
• Fair: AC Frames changed to match Bair (36> to 32>), and landing lag decreased by 2 frames.
• Nair and Uair have changed AC frames (Nair: 47> to 40>, which allows it to just autocancel in a short hop. Uair: 38> to 36>). They both also have 1 frame less landing lag (Nair: 12 to 11, and Uair: 14 to 13).
  
• Forward Throw has changed knockback, to make it a more reliable combo throw at lower percents, but not a KO confrim throw (from 100 BKB/50 KBG to 70 BKB, which was BKB of Melee, and KBG to something like 60, which should stop it being a combo throw at around high percents. Again, for referemce, Melee's KBG was 45).
• Down Throw has changed knockback, to make it slightly better at lower percents, but stops any follow ups at high percents that aren't already possible now (from 95 BKB/50 KBG, to something like 85 BKB, 60 KBG).
• Dolphin Slash's sweetspot deals 1% more damage, making it in line with Crescent Slash's sweetspot, while also making it more rewarding. The sweetspot hitbox is also increased in size to match the animation better (from 4.5u to at least 5.5u; for reference, Brawl's was 6u, but 5.5u would work fine).
• Marth now says his Counter quotes upon activation. Biggest buff right here.

I could go on and list a few more Marth changes, but they would be extras; these are what Marth needs. If you like these, feel free to add them. I've used Marth across all games he's been in, so I know my fair share about him as a character.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You know, I've changed my mind. I think this patch should only touch the lower tiers (and mid tiers), and it should be buffs only (not too big ones though). Here is my reasoning:

So, what would the purpose of nerfing top tier characters be? Balance for competitive play. However, I highly doubt this patch is going to catch on in competitive play. For one thing, many players might object to having to download a fan-made patch in order to practice, and Nintendo might be less supportive of this since it's not official. I highly doubt we'll be seeing it in big tournaments like EVO and such.

So, the only use for this patch would be for friendly play. Nerfing characters that might not even be problematic for friendly play (like, I doubt Zero Suit Samus is much of an issue outside of top competitive level) is probably not a good idea, since it might leave people with a sour taste. Better to keep them as they is. So, I think it'd be a good idea to not touch high tiers and top tiers at all. The patch could have some use in making weaker characters more fun to play in a non-competitive environment, however.

That being said, if you somehow manage to get a relevant tournament scene using this patch, then nerfing top tiers could be a good idea.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

It was a mere jape.

It's all good.

However, I stand true to my statement; Marth does need a few buffs. What shocks me more is that top tiers like Diddy and Cloud are getting buffs, but alas.

-snip

I could go on and list a few more Marth changes, but they would be extras; these are what Marth needs. If you like these, feel free to add them. I've used Marth across all games he's been in, so I know my fair share about him as a character.

-snip

I'll be sure to take these changes into consideration after some discussion with the other members in this modding group.

-snip

I get what you mean, and I'll be sure to keep this in mind. It would probably be for the best that Nintendo doesn't catch onto this mod.

 

[Funbot28]

KingJigglypuff thoughts on these changes?

KingJigglypuff Omg please add a download to this, this is such an amazing idea Anyways here are some changes I would like (note these changes are stated generally without logistics:

Bayonetta :

• Increase the angle of Dive Kick (maybe approximately to like 75 degrees?)
• Increase hitbox of Dive Kick slightly
• Reduce the SDI multiplier of Witch Twist back to 1
• Decrease the KBG of After Burner Kick slightly
• Decrease Endlag of Down Tilt
• Increase hitbox of Down Tilt

Look I know she was nerfed and all, but at least give her a combo game that linked with one another, as that was she was designed to be. I am not saying we need to bring back 0-to death combos, just give her a bit more options in the neutral. I mean you slightly buffed Diddy and Cloud so...

Falco:

• Decrease landing lag on Forward Air
• Decrease startup on lasers
• Increase damage on Up Air
• Increase invincibility on Reflector
• Increase KBG on Back Air
• Decrease KB on Up Throw
• Increase damage on Down tilt

Jigglypuff:

• Decrease startup of Rollout
• Increase KB on Up Air
• Decrease KB on Up Throw
• Decrease endlag on Rest (very slightly though!!)
• Decrease endlag on Sing
• Increase damage on Down throw
• Increase KB on Back Air

Duck Hunt:

• Make it that his smashes link somehow!! (maybe adding more hitboxes?)
• Decrease endlag on Down special
• Add invincibility on Up Special (only on startup)
• Decrease endlag on Clay Shot
• Increase damage on Down throw
• Decrease landing lag on neutral Air
• Increase KB on Up air
• Increase damage on forward tilt

Meta Knight:

• Increase hurtbox on Down tilt
• Increase KB on Up throw
• Decrease landing lab on Down Air
• Decrease endlag on Tornado (very slightly)
• Make it that Side B always grabs the ledge 100% of the time
• Decrease KB on Up Air

Pac-Man:

• DECREASE ENDLAG ON GRAB (all formes)
• Increase KB on side special
• Increase damage on Fire Hydrant
• Increase KB on Up Air
• Decrease landing lag on Forward Air

Wii Fit Trainer:

• Increase hurtbox on all smash attacks
• Decrease endlag on Down Special
• Increase KB on Side Special
• Increase hurtbox on Down Special
• Decrease charge time on Sun Salutation (slightly)

Will add more, but here are my initial ideas as of now. really net idea tbh. Project M smash 4 here we come

 

[Luig]

KingJigglypuff thoughts on these changes?

I think you should be a bit more specific on a lot of those.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

KingJigglypuff thoughts on these changes?

I don't think I'll touch Bayonetta or Meta Knight until further discussion. The other character changes seem fine, but more in depth explanations as of why they need said changes would be ideal.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Can you give Game and Watch a reason to use throws other than Down Throw? Perhaps an early stock cap with Uthrow and both Fthrow and Bthrow lower angled to set up edgeguards?

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

This seems pretty interesting. If this hasn't been linked already I think you should definitely look into this thread for requested changes to Dedede. Also, while I don't think Cloud really needed any changes, I think a good buff for Bowser would be to have him be able to jump cancel out of grounded Down B in a similar fashion to Project M if that were ever possible, while it wouldn't really make or break him as a character it would be a nice extra tool for him IMO.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. You seemed to have already seen it.

 

[Dinoman96]

How do you feel about just swapping out Palutena's default specials in favor of her custom moves such as Super Speed and Lightweight? Honestly I find her default set dreadfully boring and would just prefer her to have her other better specials out of the box, especially since they already make her a much better and more interesting character.

At the very least you ought to swap out Counter with Lightweight.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

How do you feel about just swapping out Palutena's default specials in favor of her custom moves such as Super Speed and Lightweight? Honestly I find her default set dreadfully boring and would just prefer her to have her other better specials out of the box, especially since they already make her a much better and more interesting character.

At the very least you ought to swap out Counter with Lightweight.

Not a huge fan of this idea, honestly. Although I wouldn't mind counter being swapped, I think their default moveset was chosen for a reason.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

Outside of manual Customs, this isn't possible, unfortunately.

 

[Spark31]

So... Uuuh. I saw this post a little bit late... I'm working on my own balance mod in conjunction with yours: http://smashboards.com/threads/mod-project-viable.437032. If you wanna throw any of my files in I'm cool with it as long as I and the project are credited.

OH, also, I'm a pretty capable modder so if you need any help coding in specific values I can help with tat.

Examples of things I can do:
Change basic hitbox values (obviously)
Change character properties such as fall speed or weight
Add super armor to a move
Make a move's hitboxes transcendent

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

Thanks for the head's up. I'll let you know if something comes up that's relevant to you.

 

[Buffoon]

Not sure what you can/can't alter but here are some thoughts I had (thus far):

For Marth/Lucina, can you allow them to B-Reverse Dolphin Slash? Mario, Doc Mario and Roy can do it; so why can't the Falchions do it as well? And MAYBE reduce the hurtboxes on their swords; especially Shield Breaker.

Robin: Bronze Sword aerials have less landing lag compared to Levin Sword, giving the Bronze Sword more utility and combo potential mid-air.

 

[zblaqk]

Definitely interested in what happens with this keep it up!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Robin: Bronze Sword aerials have less landing lag compared to Levin Sword, giving the Bronze Sword more utility and combo potential mid-air.

That's actually a good idea that would greatly compensate the lack of power.

 

[Deleted member]

I just noticed this thread and I would be interested in seeing where this goes. The changes you have for Zelda look good so far, but if I could make a few suggestions (these would be in addition to the ones you already have):

Weight: 85 -> 89 (same as Peach)
Walk Speed: 0.87 -> 0.92
Run Speed: 1.30 -> 1.42 (same as Peach)
Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.08
Fall Speed: 1.35 -> 1.40
Fast Fall Speed: 2.16 -> 2.3
Jump Squat: 6 frames -> 5 frames

Side Tilt:

• Eliminate the blind spot

Up Tilt:

• Extend the active frames to match the animation better (also allows her to hit small/crouching characters behind her.)

Down Tilt:

• Damage 5.5% -> 6.5%
• KBG 120 -> 95

Dash Attack:

• Active frames 6-10 -> 6-13 (same as Brawl)
• Sweet spot angle 50 -> 40
• Sweet spot damage 12% -> 13%
• Sour spot angle 50 -> 85

Up Smash:

• FAF 64 -> FAF 57 (same as Brawl)
• slightly increase the hitbox size of the looping hits (to better match Brawl)

Down Smash:

• Front hit KBG 86 -> 92 (closer to Brawl)
• Slightly increase the size of the hitbox (to better match Brawl).

Neutral Air:

• Landing Lag 19 -> 18
• FAF 51 -> 49
• Damage on the back hits 11% -> 15% (to match the front hits.)
• During the looping hits, add the two hitboxes to her head/body that are present on the final hit.
• On the final hit, increase the size of the hitboxes at her hands to match the current size of the looping hitboxes on her hands.

Forward Air:

• Landing Lag 23 -> 18
• slightly increase the size of the sweetspot

Back Air:

• Landing Lag 25 -> 19
• slightly increase the size of the sweetspot

Up Air:

• Active frames 14-16 -> 12-16
• FAF 55 -> 52

Back Throw:

• Damage 11% -> 12%
• BKB 80 -> 55, KBG 60 -> 80

Forward Throw:

• Angle 45 -> 35

Down Throw:

• Damage 6% -> 8% (1.5%x4, 2%) (final hit deals the same damage so KB wouldn't have to be compensated.)

Nayru's Love:

• FAF 60 -> 55
• Active Frames 13-24 -> 11-22
• Intangibility 5-15 -> 3-13
• Increase the hitbox size of the looping hits to match the size of the final hit

Din's Fire:

• Remove free fall
• Decrease end lag
• Increase the fireball's max traveling speed and acceleration
• Increase the fireball's maneuverability
• Increase the size of the sourspot's hitbox to better match the animation
• Add a weak hitbox to the fireball while Zelda is controlling it

Phantom Slash:

• Health 12% -> 18%
• Lowest charge damage 6% -> 10%, Mid charge damage 14% -> 16% (KB scaled for both)
• Max charge's two hits connect better
• Charge is shield cancel-able
• Decrease end lag

Farore's Wind:

• Allow her to drift left/right immediately after reappearing in the air
• Increase the size of the grounded first hit's hitbox so that it covers her upper body

 

[Frihetsanka]

Maybe it would be a good idea to discuss where the end-goal should be for these characters. My suggestion is: High-mid tier (like current tier 3-4 on the community created tier list, so like Luigi, Yoshi, Lucario-level).

Why not go for high tier (Ness, Pikachu, Villager, and such)? Simple: It's too easy to overshoot. If the aim is high tier you risk overshooting and making them top tier or potentially even top 5. I'd rather see small and moderate buffs than huge buffs that make them too powerful. If anyone ends up stronger than, say, Meta Knight, you've probably ended up too far. Even stronger than Luigi or Captain Falcon might be too far.

Anyway, I have a question: Is it possible to manually select characters changed when you apply the patch? Since I might be interested in some characters (like Palutena and Zelda), but I don't want any changes for characters that I might play in a tournament. I also don't want high tiers and top tiers changed in general (probably not the top of mid tier either, Captain Falcon and Toon Link don't really need any buffs imo).

 

[KingJigglypuff]

-snip

Making a Special able to B Reverse isn't possible right now. And I believe Robin's Aerials share the same landing lag, so I unfortunately can't do that, but I could give the Bronze Sword better FAF.

-snip

I won't be able to do the Floating Point related edits (Din's Fire, Phantom Slash, Farore's Wind, etc), but I can do everything else. I'll talk with the others about these changes because these changes sound really solid. Do you have any explanations as of why these moves should be changed?

-snip

My end goal is to make every character at least viable, which would be around mid to high tier.

As for picking and choosing which characters you want, you'll have to pick and choose from the Manual Injection option and manually insert those into your own build.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Viable for what, though? For tournaments? As I said before, it seems highly unlikely this is going to catch on for tournaments, and you might not want it to since that might get you some unwanted attention from copyright lawyers (that's why they decided to shut down Project M, as a pre-emptive measure). Some small tournaments might use it, I suppose. I think it would be a better idea to balance them for friendly, non-tournament play, and it might be a good idea (really good idea) to be a bit cautious and not overbuff them. As a rule of thumb, I don't think any character should end up stronger than, say, Meta Knight or Captain Falcon. That's my take on it, anyway.

Question: Do you take customs into account? Chances are many people will use some customs when playing casually (unless they're practising for tournaments). Most bottom/low/mid tier characters aren't helped that much by customs, but a few are. Some notable examples are Ganondorf, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, and Donkey Kong*.

*I'd argue vanilla Donkey Kong might not really need buffs at all, he's somewhat viable and decent as it is and sometimes seem tournament play. With customs on he's pretty good. Though if we're able to pick characters for ourselves it matters a bit less, since people like me who don't think DK needs buffs could just not pick him.

Edit: Perhaps it would be better to balance the characters based on the assumption that they are not using customs, and players may then choose to use customs or not if they want to. If they feel that some character, say, Ganondorf, becomes too powerful with customs, then they can choose to either skip customs or skip applying the patch for those characters.

 

[Smashifer]

I haven't seen anyone mention it (sorry if someone did), but could you reduce the SDI modifier on Lucas' nair? Currently you can SDI out of it and it hinders him immensely.

Maybe even let it (and maybe fair) auto-cancel out of a short hop?

 

[Spark31]

Making a Special able to B Reverse isn't possible right now. And I believe Robin's Aerials share the same landing lag, so I unfortunately can't do that, but I could give the Bronze Sword better FAF.

I won't be able to do the Floating Point related edits (Din's Fire, Phantom Slash, Farore's Wind, etc), but I can do everything else. I'll talk with the others about these changes because these changes sound really solid. Do you have any explanations as of why these moves should be changed?

My end goal is to make every character at least viable, which would be around mid to high tier.

As for picking and choosing which characters you want, you'll have to pick and choose from the Manual Injection option and manually insert those into your own build.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly are you editing FAF? Are you using allow interrupt or just speeding up the frame count? Also, how are you going to allow manual injection with the character parameter file? That could cause some problems right?

 

[Smoutebollen]

What's with these changes to Palutena?

I'm not sure if just lowering the endlag on her ground moves by 10 frames is a good idea, especially with the rather strong combo potential they'd provide with such drastic endlag reductions.
Allowing her up smash, with its pretty heavy range, to come out as early as frame 13 would make it far too strong for the range and utility it provides, and far too safe with the heavily reduced endlag.

Why increase the down throw's damage? Wouldn't that result in enemies being flung farther away, thus breaking her obligatory down throw to up air combo?

Reducing her up air's landing lag to 12 frames doesn't seem like a very good choice, either, seeing as the same can be achieved by using a forward air right before landing. If anything, this might result in scary combinations with the up air which no enemy should ever experience.

Reducing the endlag on her rather strong down air by 10 frames seems like a scary idea, too, seeing as that'd not only remove any risk from carelessly throwing it out, but also make it a lot easier for her to try her luck with lucky spikes.

I experienced some nasty issues with attempting to shorten startups on any specials which spawn projectiles, so reducing Reflect's startup from 8 frames to 7 might result in it not spawning the reflect barrier as it should.

I could keep going, but I feel like I am going a little overboard as-is already - please explain these changes to me so that I can understand the reasoning behind them, however.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Wow, of course my browser crashes the second before I post my nerf list. I'll try again.

Footstools can now be teched like a normal meteor if performed in the air, ending several characters' infinite combos.
Up air BKB lowered and jab fixed to deal less damage, but have a better hitbox
Up tilt, down throw and up air KBG all increased, and cape hitbox shrunk.
Super armor removed from spin dash, and spring deals less damage.
Knockback angle on Monkey Flip kick changed to be more vertical.
Jab startup raised to frame 4 or 5 and endlag on jab 2 increased to the level of Diddy's jab.
Shoryuken (both) and down air damage and KBG decreased, Soft Up & Down Tilt BKB increased, but KBG is decreased as well. This makes Ryu's combos not as long or powerful, but more consistent as a tradeoff.

This one is more a fix than a nerf- Disable will have better startup but now will have a recharge timer of 5 seconds.

 

[Spark31]

What's with these changes to Palutena?

I'm not sure if just lowering the endlag on her ground moves by 10 frames is a good idea, especially with the rather strong combo potential they'd provide with such drastic endlag reductions.
Allowing her up smash, with its pretty heavy range, to come out as early as frame 13 would make it far too strong for the range and utility it provides, and far too safe with the heavily reduced endlag.

Why increase the down throw's damage? Wouldn't that result in enemies being flung farther away, thus breaking her obligatory down throw to up air combo?

Reducing her up air's landing lag to 12 frames doesn't seem like a very good choice, either, seeing as the same can be achieved by using a forward air right before landing. If anything, this might result in scary combinations with the up air which no enemy should ever experience.

Reducing the endlag on her rather strong down air by 10 frames seems like a scary idea, too, seeing as that'd not only remove any risk from carelessly throwing it out, but also make it a lot easier for her to try her luck with lucky spikes.

I experienced some nasty issues with attempting to shorten startups on any specials which spawn projectiles, so reducing Reflect's startup from 8 frames to 7 might result in it not spawning the reflect barrier as it should.

I could keep going, but I feel like I am going a little overboard as-is already - please explain these changes to me so that I can understand the reasoning behind them, however.

Kinda agree with him here. A lot of these characters I feel like are being changed drastically in ways that make the character feel too different.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Spoilers are in the reply below.

Spoiler

-snip

I'm aware such a mod would never catch on, though like you mentioned, it would be for the best if it didn't. The direction for this mod should clear up in time, as right now, this mod's sense of direction is just beginning.

For Customs, I don't use them, but it could be fun to see what could be done.

-snip

For the former, FAF is normally controlled via MSC, but there just happens to be an Allow Interrupt command for manual FAF editing. Though if the FAF can't be reduced without it looking out of place, then I just use a Set Frame Duration. For the latter, I forgetting that all the character attributes are in one file this time around.

-snip

The changes I made to Palutena were based on the desired changes on this particular Palutena thread, but I will revert my change to Down Throw, since I wanted to increase the hitstun of the move (it was never suggested), but it backfired.

For the glitch-related issues, I've tested every single one of my edits in-game. It's why I can't reduce the startup of her Forward and Down Smash, since her wings glitch out. If I find anything that causes a glitch, then I remove my edits to it if I can't fix it.

-snip

I'll be able to do everything except give a timer for Mewtwo's Disable, but as I've stated before, I don't want to touch any high/top tier characters until further discussion. The reactions to Diddy's changes should be more than enough of a reason.

 

[11volt]

Personal ideas:

• Increase hitstun on d-throw - to make early % d-throw combos more consistent/varied.
• Decrease knockback on f-throw - to give another option for early % damage racking
• Make u-throw a better kill throw - but not by too much; maybe at about 140% on Mario without rage.
• Increase b-throw's base knockback, but decrease scaling/KBG (I don't know which is which) - simply for a slightly better 'get off me' option, but not so much that it becomes a kill throw.

These would increase Marth/Lucina's reward from a grab.

• Change dash attack's knockback angle and decrease its lag a little - to let it combo into u-air at low-mid %s

I don't really know about this one, but it is a personal ideas post and I just really want to be able to do this. It would make damage racking a bit easier too.


And also, ner - - I mean, FIX Luma. No more jank BS.

 

[Spark31]

In relation to the palutena down air, you could increase damage but decrease BKB to account, right? That's what I did for Roy's up air in my mod. I just used SpaceJam's calculator to make sure knockback was at least similar.

Also, I'm start working on bowser jr. buffs. If you wanna use the files when I'm done you can.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Increase hitstun on d-throw - to make early % d-throw combos more consistent/varied.

To do that, we need to buff the knockback, which may reduce its utility as a combo throw.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

In relation to the palutena down air, you could increase damage but decrease BKB to account, right? That's what I did for Roy's up air in my mod. I just used SpaceJam's calculator to make sure knockback was at least similar.

I already have some ideas on what to do for Palutena's Down Air, but I'll need to discuss this with the other members.

 

[Spark31]

I already have some ideas on what to do for Palutena's Down Air, but I'll need to discuss this with the other members.

Down throw not air. My B

 

[Eugene Wang]

What's with these changes to Palutena?

I'm not sure if just lowering the endlag on her ground moves by 10 frames is a good idea, especially with the rather strong combo potential they'd provide with such drastic endlag reductions.
Allowing her up smash, with its pretty heavy range, to come out as early as frame 13 would make it far too strong for the range and utility it provides, and far too safe with the heavily reduced endlag.

Why increase the down throw's damage? Wouldn't that result in enemies being flung farther away, thus breaking her obligatory down throw to up air combo?

Reducing her up air's landing lag to 12 frames doesn't seem like a very good choice, either, seeing as the same can be achieved by using a forward air right before landing. If anything, this might result in scary combinations with the up air which no enemy should ever experience.

Reducing the endlag on her rather strong down air by 10 frames seems like a scary idea, too, seeing as that'd not only remove any risk from carelessly throwing it out, but also make it a lot easier for her to try her luck with lucky spikes.

I experienced some nasty issues with attempting to shorten startups on any specials which spawn projectiles, so reducing Reflect's startup from 8 frames to 7 might result in it not spawning the reflect barrier as it should.

I could keep going, but I feel like I am going a little overboard as-is already - please explain these changes to me so that I can understand the reasoning behind them, however.

Can you find a bread-and-butter that is easy to fish for or does more than 45 damage on a confirm? As far as I'm aware, 1 second for a move is long enough that if you sit back, you can punish it on reaction.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Down throw not air. My B

It would probably be for the best that I just leave her Down Throw alone.