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Sliq is Amazing and so Can You! *Now with Smileypants Bowser Avatar!*

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
UPDATE WITH VIDEOS!

TOURNAMENT VIDEOS!
All of my pools matches from the Canada tournament I went to. Unfortunately my camera is ****ed so I didn't get to record a lot of bracket matches.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LjEU_-eLoZA

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=batV9MxNdK4

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GD0LGQtqWB0

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=XAnczmzk10U

Bracket Videos:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9W4Mr38r3bw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KfLZlBpGTcQ

Team's Bracket Videos:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=PmAf50USue4

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9gF-xQZdg

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=SR_5AFDPJrw

Technique Videos

Murder Kick Cancel & Murder Choke Ledge Hop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjNWVbvYhiw

Murder Fist Recovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6SFekF7q4g

I named this **** "Murder X" because I feel that it is appropriate, and because Murder Punch sounds funny to me. Murder anything is a combination of win and funny.

Mini update: I renamed the Murder Punch because Dazwa and I both agreed Murder Fist was funnier. I also call Ganon's up tilt the Murder Balls, because he shows you his balls, then murders you.

I also named Ganon's Fair Crushpunch, in honor of Final Fantasy Tactics.

Murder Kick Cancel
With Ganon's Down B, if you space yourself well enough from a ledge, and the move ends just as you are going over the ledge, you won't incur any of the end lag associated with the move. This has several uses.

For starters, you can use it to edgehog. It is quite easy to catch people off guard with this. Down B, edgehog, Marth is now dead. Furthermore, if they grab the stage before you, you can double jump and bair them into the stage, and still make it back.

Furthermore, you can use it for edgeguarding. Down B off the stage into up air. You can hit them with the beginning, or the end and spike them into the stage. Down B is fast, so unless they see it coming, you should be rocking some faces.

Murder Combo
Ganon's best combo. This is easily Dair to Up smash. Auto-cancel your dair, and once it connects, up smash. This does around 50% (specific % eludes me) and sets up for more hits (Up air, Fair, read the air dodge and over b as they land into tech chase).

Furthermore, even if they DI it, or may be out of range for the up smash, with its awesome IASA frames, you might as well do it, then react out of it. People may see a whiffed up smash and get owned by a quick up air out of nowhere. Up smash is good **** now people. Unfortunate that Ganon can't slide across the word with his, like other characters.

Another combo that works on lighter characters at low percent is to over b, down tilt, to jab. Ultimately you can over b, down tilt, over b, as most people try to air dodge out of the down tilt, but this is better if they try to retaliate with a move (after catching on to your clever ruse). Against heavier characters, you'll probably want to just down tilt twice, and maybe follow those up with another over b.

Murder Choke
Pivoting the over b. You should all be pivoting that shit for spacing and mindgames purposed. Dash left, over b right. Shit is effective at avoiding and then punishing. Also good for tricking people to roll certain ways, aiding in Flame Choke tech chasing.

Furthermore, Jekyl has brought it to my attention that, in a similar fashion to pivoting the Murder Punch, you can change the direction of the Murder Choke after you have executed it by immediately smashing the control stick the opposite way. I suppose this could be used as a mindgame, if you fake away then towards, albeit it's so fast I don't know if your opponent will even have time to be confused.

I mean, you could always change it from towards to away, but you kind of don't want to be farther away from them as Ganon.

Further credit goes to Jekyll for telling me it does 4% more from the air. If you jump and immediately over b, you will grab any character. You will not go to high to grab. You must over b immediately though.

The court is still out on how the game determines who dies first in a suicide situation.

The Murder Choke is infinitely useful against Snake, or other people that like to air dodge to the ground. Just space yourself, and as they are going to land, do an over b, so the air dodge right into your Murder Choker. Then, follow up (Snake) with a jab, and repeat the process until they catch on. Most often, when they catch on, they well land into a spot dodge. If they catch on and do this, just thunderstorm over where they are going to be. If they start rolling, just try to read the roll and follow up.

Merry Christmas Ganondorf Players!

Sliq, feel free to copy or link to this in your guide.


The Murder Choke Breakdown


.....Preface.....

The following is a result of a series of tests I used to find out what attacks could be used as a follow-up to the Murder Choke to GUARANTEE a free hit, regardless of opponent DI. I also discovered and listed what DI certain opponents can use to dodge specific follow-ups. I plan on updating this guide in the future with more information regarding specific situations and the "Crazy *** Flying Murder Choke". I'll represent this data in several formats and hope that you guys can find use for it(I know I will :)).


.....Important Info.....

The Method:
All of my testing was done in Training Mode with both characters controlled by me. I don't think I need to go into how I controlled both characters, but since the only thing my left hand did for Ganon was hit → for the Murder Choke, I would immediately switch it over to the second character to control their DI. Basically, I just went through each character testing whether or not each attack connected with the following DI:
  1. Towards Ganon(Rolling Left)
  2. Away from Ganon(Rolling Right)
  3. Straight Up(Standing)
  4. No DI(Get-up Attack)

I had to restart several times since I would find more accurate and efficient ways of recording information. You *******s had better appreciate it.....:laugh:

The Effects of DI:
I'm just throwing this out in case some of you don't know. Once an opponent is grabbed by the Murder Choke, they can immediately begin holding a direction to DI. The only directions that matter are Up, Left and Right.
By holding Left or Right, they both influence the direction that they bounce once the Choke "hits" AND immediately roll in that direction on the first frame possible. It's possible to switch DI and roll the opposite way, but it's really quite pointless methinks.
Holding up causes a character to stand up at the first frame possible. This is just as good at avoiding Murder Choke follow-ups since the opponent gets invincibility frames if they choose this option.


The Attacks:

D-Tilt
Damage: 21%
Info: You all know what this looks like. It's the attack that hits the most characters, so use it when you're in doubt about a character.
Timing: This move should be timed so that you begin JUST before the opponent hits the ground for the second time.
*TIP*: The reason that this is so hard to land on some characters is because(I think) if you hold Down completely while doing the tilt, the game thinks you want to crouch first. It's kind of like when you're holding back after an aerial for spacing and the game makes you turn around and walk when you land. If you hold down completely, the game buffers the crouch command and it delays your D-Tilt. Practice using the D-Tilt while barely pressing down, so that it doesn't even register as a crouch.

F-Tilt
Damage: 22%
Info: This attack tends to go over the thinner characters, and its reach isn't QUITE as long as the D-Tilt. However, it's strong and is a great move to use when you have a chance of KOing your opponent off of the side.
Timing: Similar to the D-Tilt, you should start this move right before your opponent hits the ground for the second time after the Murder Choke's "hit".
*TIP*: This is the tilt I had the most trouble with, personally(it may have been how I was holding the controller during testing). What I ended up doing for testing, and plan on adopting permanently, is setting my C-Stick to Attack rather than Smash. This has 2 effects:
  1. The command for the tilt buffers MUCH more nicely. I think it actually gets queued as a single command which cuts out "inbetween" frames that get filled with just hitting the direction you want. ie the game doesn't think you want to walk forward before using the F-Tilt.
  2. It's just much easier to time one "sticking" than it is to get out a tilt using the analog stick without walking or crouching.
However, there are a couple of downfalls, which will be listed later.

Jab
Damage: 18%
Info: It's the jab!
Timing: Since it's a single command, it buffers really well. Just keep smashing the A button and it'll come out perfectly.


*All percentages include the damage from the Murder Choke and were taken in Training Mode with Stale Moves not effecting damage.


.....The C-Stick.....​

If you read the bit about the F-Tilt, then you know that I'm all about using the C-Stick for tilts...kind of. Yes, setting your C-Stick to Attack makes following up the Murder Choke a breeze. However, it complicates other things.

For starters, you can't use a "Back-Tilt". If you hit the C-Stick in the opposite direction you're facing, you end up just getting a jab.

Secondly, tilts with the C-Stick don't buffer as nicely in certain situations. If you hit the C-Stick to tilt too far before the time comes after the Murder Choke, you end up jumping:confused:. The same thing happens if you try to do a C-Sticked Tilt after dropping your shield. There were also several times today when I wanted to do a certain aerial, but ended up getting a Neutral Air! Hopefully I work these kinks out with time.


.....The List.....

This is a list, similar to the one that can already be found somewhere on SWF, that simply lists what characters WILL be hit by a certain followup. Once again, whether or not they DI and ROLL is completely irrelevant. Characters are listed in roster order and some characters may appear on more than one list(because they're hit by more than one followup.

The D-Tilt:
  1. Mario
  2. Zero Suit Samus
  3. Kirby
  4. Fox
  5. Pikachu
  6. Mr. Game and Watch
  7. Luigi
  8. Diddy
  9. Zelda
  10. Shiek
  11. Pit
  12. Meta Knight
  13. Ivysuar
  14. Charizard
  15. Ike
  16. Peach
  17. Yoshi
  18. Ice Climbers
  19. King Dedede
  20. Ness
  21. Sonic
  22. Toon Link
  23. R.O.B.
  24. Capt. Olimar
  25. Capt. Falcon
  26. Jigglypuff
  27. Lucas

The F-Tilt:
  1. Kirby
  2. Pikachu
  3. Mr. Game and Watch
  4. Luigi
  5. Diddy
  6. Meta Knight
  7. Ivysuar
  8. Charizard
  9. Ike
  10. Yoshi
  11. Ice Climbers
  12. King Dedede
  13. Toon Link
  14. R.O.B.
  15. Capt. Olimar
  16. Jigglypuff

The Jab:
  1. Donkey Kong
  2. Link
  3. Samus
  4. Kirby
  5. Mr. Game and Watch
  6. Diddy
  7. Pit
  8. Meta Knight
  9. Ivysuar
  10. Charizard
  11. Ike
  12. Snake
  13. Yoshi
  14. Ice Climbers
  15. King Dedede
  16. Bowser
  17. R.O.B.
  18. Capt. Olimar
  19. Jigglypuff


The Groups​

Next up, I've separated all of the characters into 5 groups. Groups 1-3 contain characters that have a GUARANTEED follow-up.

The characters in Group 1 have no self-esteem. You can do whatever you want with them, and they'll like it.

Group 2 contains characters that have a follow-up that isn't guaranteed to work, but two that are.

Group 3, if you haven't guessed, has characters that Ganon can only use a single follow-up on if he wants a guaranteed hit.

Group 4 is made up of characters who can only be hit by a follow-up in certain situations(when they use certain DI). If any of these characters know the match-up with Ganon well, then you'll never land any sort of follow-up after the Murder Choke.

Group 5 makes me sick. They're the characters that you will only be able to hit with a follow up when they choose to get up and attack. Even then, in most cases, your D-Tilt is the only thing that will hit the skinny S.O.B.s.

This info may seem irrelevant to some, but if I didn't think it was good to know, I wouldn't have included it. :p Here they are:

Group 1: All follow-ups are GUARANTEED.
  • Kirby
  • Mr. Game and Watch
  • Diddy
  • Meta Knight
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard
  • Ike
  • Yoshi
  • Ice Climbers
  • King Dedede
  • R.O.B.
  • Capt. Olimar
  • Jigglypuff

Have 2 GUARANTEED follow-ups.
Group 2:

  • Pikachu (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
  • Luigi (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
  • Pit (D-Tilt, Jab)
  • Toon Link (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)

Group 3: Only have 1 GUARANTEED follow-up.
  • Mario (D-Tilt)
  • Donkey Kong (Jab)
  • Link (Jab)
  • Samus (Jab)
  • Zero Suit Samus (D-Tilt)
  • Fox (D-Tilt)
  • Zelda (D-Tilt)
  • Shiek (D-Tilt)
  • Snake (Jab)
  • Peach (D-Tilt)
  • Ness (D-Tilt)
  • Sonic (D-Tilt)
  • Bowser (Jab)
  • Capt. Falcon (D-Tilt)
  • Lucas (D-Tilt)

Group 4: Situational follow-ups (see chart).
  • Marth
  • Squirtle
  • Wolf
  • Wario

Group 5: No follow-ups. D-Tilt only when they try to attack.
  • Falco
  • Ganondorf
  • Lucario

.....The Chart.....​
idk, my bff jekyll

Murder Choke Ledgehop
If you ledgehop, and over-b as soon as you can, you should do a Murder Choke extremely close to the ground. This is great because someone on the stage can't shield it, it sends you inward towards the stage quickly, and it has little lag if done correctly.

Tipman Spike
The Tipman spike. When edgeguarding people, go out there and try to hit them with a revers up air. The end of the move has spiking properties, and it has a lot of priority.

The Super Tipman
You can drop from the ledge, double jump, up air, then insta-regrab the ledge with Ganon's over b. This allows you to either hit someone behind you and regrab, or hit someone on the stage and regrabe.

You can also do it with bair, which I find a million times easier. Not sure how useful either of them are, but they exist, so they are here. I did not discover this.

Surviving Vertical KO's
If you are hit upwards, double jump down-b. Down-b'ing immediately will not change your trajectory. You have to jump first. I haven't tested this yet, I'm basing it off what is known about aerials with similar properties (Sonic, ZSS, etc.). I assume Ganon's Murder Kick is the same.

Fuck Fastfalling
It appears that if you hold down before your character starts their decent and then hit A, you can do a dair without fastfalling. If you tried to dair with downard momentum, you would always fastfall. However, if you are holdingdown before you have downward momentum, then hit a while holding down, you will do a non fastfalled stomp.

So, as you are running off the ledge, if you are holding down as you run off and hit a, you should stomp without fast falling. However, in order to do this, you have to be holding right-down/left-down, then as you run off the stage, rotate the stick a very small amount down and you should dair without fastfalling, which can be useful for edgeguarding.

Jekyll has brought it to my attention that you can do non-ff'd dairs by setting the c-stick to attack as opposed to smash. This will, however, change the c-stick to grounded tilts.

Personally, I like stutter stepping the f smash (Murder Elbow).

Stutter Step Murder Elbow
Smash the control stick in the opposite way you want to f-smash, then smash the c-stick in the way you want to smash. This causes Ganon's feet to shift forward, giving him more range on his f-smash.

Murder Punch Recovery
Apparently, if you double reverse your warlock punch, Ganon gets a **** ton of movement. Normally, to reverse B moves you tap the opposite direction then hit b right after it. For example, shl in Melee with Falco. Well, Ganon can reverse his Warlock punch twice. Once the traditional way for neutral b's, and then it has a turn around built into it.

So here is the scenario. You are hit, and you DI it properly, and you are in the upper right corner of the stage, in the bubble. What you do is, tap right and b, so you are Warlock Punching to the right (with your back to the stage). Then you immediately smash left, and Ganon should turn around. When he turns around, he gets a **** ton of air moving distance. I will have a video up eventually. I think this is pretty cool, and maybe useful, especially if someone wants to edgeguard you, you can give him a Backhand to the skull. Plus you can recover well without needing your second jump.

i think ganon is a pretty cool guy. eh double pivot murder punch recovers and doesn't afraid of anything.

IASA

Ganon has a lot of IASA (interruptable as soon as) frames on a lot of his stuff, most importantly his up smash, which you can interrupt with ANYTHING. I played G-Reg online and he put this to use. I new that it had IASA with itself, but I didn't know you can do anything out of it.

Furthermore, his jab, f-tilt, and down tilt all have IASA frames, where you can start the same move again before the 1st one actually ends. I'll have videos up as soon as I can, but anyone familiar with IASA frames should know what I'm talking about. These aren't nearly as significant as the up smash, but they still help.

Murder Lunge
Apparently, Ganon's up-b no longer gives people their second jump back. So if someone uses their second jump, and you hit them with it, they don't get it back, and it could **** someone over, seeing as how it has little knockback. Credit goes to G-Reg for being awesome.

Murder Chin
On BF, if you auto-cancel dair, it will hit people on the side platforms, because as everyone knows, Ganondorf shoots lightning out of his beard. Ok, well, he doesn't, but the hitbox of the move will hit people above you. This is a great to do when you have your opponent above you, as you can do multiple rapid fire ac dairs. It is way more flexible than up smashing through the plat, and hits harder than up airing through it, as well.

Murder Quake
This is just the instant aerial Murder Kick technique, give a silly name for no apparent reason. Just jump, and immediately down b. Ganon instantly goes to his landing animation from the down b, creating a hitbox all around him. The move is extremely fast, but also very laggy and has limited knockback.

I don't think it's really that useful, but it might be.

Crazy Ass Flying Murder Choke
You jump, and as soon as you do, you over b. This method keeps you extremely close to the ground, but does 6% more damage then the grounded one. I haven't tested whether or not this goes over certain characters, but for characters that are medium height, you're better off doing the aerial variant due to the added percent.

Furthermore, the lag from the move is significantly less than landing from a standard aerial over b, I assume occurs because of your proximity to the ground.

Finally, this allows you to jump out of shield and over b, which may or may not be faster then dropping your shield and over b-ing. Even if it is the same speed, you should do this anyways, as it does more damage.

Edit: It would seem that Ganon isn't able to react as well to people rolling after the CAFMC when compared to the standard grounded Murder Choke, mostly due to how fast his opponents recover, so it is looking like it might be considerably less useful then originally anticipated.

Murder Slide
Ganondorf can glide toss people. I tested it. It is awesome.

To Murder Slide, grab a throwing item. Roll in the direction you want to go, and almost immediately after, smash the c-stick in the direction you want to throw whatever you have. The roll momentum will make you slide a great distance, I'd say roughly half of BF.

This can be useful against Snake, as his nades are extremely easy to catch. My thoughts are, Murder Slide to Murder Choke, gg no re.

Aerial Rave
So I've tested this with everyone, and have compiled a list of characters that are hit by the full jump stomp, short hop up air, and short hop bair. Some characters can not be hit with the full hop stomp, but CAN be hit if you double jump after the full hop stomp, and stomp again. Also, some characters require you hit with the tip of the up air or bair in order to actually hit them with the move.

FJD = full jump dair, FJD2 = double jump dair after FJD, bair = back air

Bowser: all
DK: all
Zelda: all
Sheik: all but FJD
Peach: bair (tip), up air (tip)
Yoshi: all but FJD
Link: all but FJD
Samus: all
ZSS: all
Pit: all but FJD
Rob: all but FJD
Dedede: all
Falco: all
Cpt. Falcon: all
Ganondorf: all
Charizard: all
Marth: all
Ike: all
Snake: all

If I didn't list the character, then they don't get hit by anything. Stick to dairing or tilts, or read an aerial and up air.

All characters were standing neutral during the test. I haven't tested crouching yet.

Also, even though you can't hit smaller characters, I have learned something extremely awesome. For shorter characters, when you go to do the second stomp, when you jump, you will almost ALWAYS footstool. Apparently, Ganon's full hop Murder Stomp inherently times perfectly to footstool shorter characters. These characters are:

Kirby, Metaknight, Olimar, Mario, Diddy, Fox, Ness, Toon Link, Wario, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Wolf, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, Lucario, Lucas, and Ivysaur

What this means: full hop dair, and then double jump another dair. Either they jump into the second dair, or you footstool them with your double jump. Immediately after footstooling them, Murder Kick.

Furthermore, you can full hop stomp, double jump stomp, and then down b, all before hitting the ground. So you can shield pressure someone, without actually having to hit their shield. Just be up in the air stomping, and as they shield, it wears down, then you down b.

I haven't tested this in matches yet, so it is just a hypothesis at this point. I plan on testing FJD against shields to see if it will hit shorter people that are shielding. As soon as I get some help or another set of arms this will be up.

Crush Punch
If you jump off a platform on BF, and fair, you can double jump before you hit ground level. The move ends before you hit the ground if you full hop fair. So I would suggest getting on the plat to edgeguard people coming in high. That way you can double fair.

I'm positive this will work on any stage with platforms.

Furthermore, Ganon's fair has a sweet spot, at his fist. If you hit with the shoulder region it has considerably less knockback, and does 15%. Sweet spotted it ***** and does 17%.

I have bumped this move up much higher in my list of moves I enjoy using. The best time to do it is when your opponent is very high in the air, or if you know what they are going to do.

When they are high up, you can lure them into an air dodge then either play it safe and up air, or whip your balls out and Crush their soul with your iron fist. Furthermore, this **** is AWESOME against the fat faggot Dedede after he uses his up b. Just wait until after the peak of his jump, and crush his ******** face in with the Crush Punch.

Stop Projectiles
With your fists!

I made science and found out which projectiles can be stopped/outprioritized by an attack. Sure, it's useless for stopping since you can powershield, but if you can bash through an attack and hit your opponent it's pretty good, no? It can give you a bit more safety in battle. I got some pretty suprising results. This isn't completed yet, but I will complete it soon.

:mario2: Mario's Fireballs

DA overrides Fireballs. Woop. Just bash straight through the spamming. Jab can stop the balls as well, but it cancels your own animation.

:peach: Peach's Turnips

Jab and DA just stop the Turnips. You can catch the Turnips by airdodging or doing an aerial, though, which is much more useful, especially with Glide Toss. Otherwise, just powershield.

:link2: Link's Arrows and Boomerang

DA overrides the Gale Boomerang, and Jab stops it. Yeah. Arrows can be stopped by jabbing, but honestly? Powershielding is a lot easier to do. Not sure about DA beating arrows.

:pit: Pit's Arrows

DA and jab both stop the Arrow. Powershielding is easier.

:diddy: Diddy's Peanuts and Banana's

Peanuts can be caught, the normal way, by airdodging or doing an aerial. DA destroys the peanut, which is awesome. Jabbing breaks the peanut as well.

Banana's are weirder, I think that DA'ing over them makes you trip, but I'm not sure. Otherwise, you can just pick them up and maybe try to catch them if Diddy is close by.

:popo: Ice Climbers' Ice Block

Dtilt reflects it. I'm not 100% sure how it's done, but I think you have to dtilt them so you hit them exactly at the tip of your foot. Know that it reflects both shots, but if you mess it up, one of them will hit you, and the other will be reflected.

:samus2: Samus' Charge Shot and Missles

A Homing Missle can be stopped with jab. However, you can also just override it with the DA and hit her in the face. A Super Missle is stronger - it can still be destroyed with the jab, but DA only clashes with it.

Small Charge Shots can be stopped with jabs, and I think Medium-sized can be stopped with ftilt. Another thing I know is that a fully charged Charge Shot can be stopped with an uncharged fsmash. In my opinion, it's easier than powershielding it and it looks really awesome.

:yoshi2: Yoshi's Eggs

Yoshi is pretty weird. Jab can stop it, but sometimes the egg hits you anyway. I think you have to hit it with the end of your jab, but I'm not sure. Ftilt drills through it easier, though. But you can still get hit out of it, sometimes. More testing will be needed.

Also, Yoshi's forward B clashes with ftilt and gets outprioritized by fsmash. Just cool stuff.

:toonlink: Toon Link's Arrows and Boomerang

Arrows can be stopped with jab and clashes with DA. Boomerang is the same as Link's, DA overrides it and jab clashes.

:dedede: King Dedede's Waddle Dee's

More strange projectiles. Anyway, jab 'stops' the Waddle Dee's. As in, it doesn't hurt you. Same with Waddle Doo's. They'll still be on screen and wander around though. I have no idea about Gordo's, but.. I don't think anything will override those.


This is all I have for now, but this'll need a bit more research. I'll get to that when I get unlazy.
Furthermore, Ganon's over b goes through Jigglypuff and Yoshi's neutral b's, and his up air will stop Ness's PK Thunder.

Fuck Banana Peels
Ganon's Murder Kick is not effected by bananas, so you can harmlessly (and badassly) Murder Kick right over them. Pretty useful for Diddy Kong's annoying ass.

Shin Breaker
Ganon's down tilt is amazing. This is basically his best option in terms of "approach." Just position yourself well, then d tilt, hitting with the very end of the move. More often then not you can IASA another one and hit your opponent if they shield the first one.

The best way to position yourself is to either come in towards your enemy with a dair or up air that, and land in the position you want, then d tilt. You can also air dodge to d tilt, which Jekyll does, and it is surprisingly effective.

Murder Dodge
Air dodging is probably Ganon's best approach. You can either do above technique, or if you know your opponent is going to advance (or if they will stay in place), what you can do is jump and air dodge through them, land behind them, then pivot f tilt or pivot over b them, then own their asses. I basically stole this from Jekyll, who inspired me to play Ganon again.

You can also run in, and jump backwards, air dodging at the same time, in order to space, like a psuedo wave dash. By doing this, you throw some variety into your game, so they are less likely to guess how you will approach.

Platform Wavelanding
I discovered this while playing on Smashville. Apparently, with Ganon, if you time your air dodge as you are passing above a plat, you will stick to the plat, as opposed to continuing your upwards momentum. What I did was, as the plat was above me, I shorthopped, then double jumped, then air dodged and held down. Ganon immediately was on the platform, and had his shield up. I have only tried this on Smashville.

According to Flying Dutchman, this was already known (I had suspected as much), and it only works on moving platforms.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Looks good so far, but is there any chance I can get a video of this down-b edgehog, auto-cancel, or whatever it is called. That would be lovely
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,890
Location
Canada, ON
With Ganon's Down B, if you space yourself well enough from a ledge, and the move ends just as you are going over the ledge, you won't incur any of the end lag associated with the move. This has several uses.
Once again, the mysterious motion-cancel box by the ledge...

We should put it in Tactical Discussion: If you do a move, and it ends exactly in the right spot just above a ledge and off the stage, you will cancel all lag and be restored to a control state with all your jumps.

The Tipman spike. When edgeguarding people, go out there and try to hit them with a revers up air. The end of the move has spiking properties, and it has a lot of priority.
People talk about spikes like they are ontologically real game entities, but all they are is the class of those moves which have the property of spiking: sending someone down.

So when you say the move "has spiking properties," i.e., it has properties of having the property of sending someone down, you look somewhat foolish.


Anyway, generally an informative post. :)
 

Twilight Emblem

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I just recently started training with tipman spiking in brawl. People, If you can hone yourself to tipman spike effectively, that will help ALOT in edge gaurding. This does work in brawl.

Good thread, can`t wait too see more.
 

Jekyll

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Is there any benefit to pivoting the Over-B as opposed to jumping and doing it back the other direction? If you start it while you're still close enough to the ground, you can still get most(all?) characters, and it does an extra 4-ish percent that Jekyll likes r(^_^)b
 

Rhyfelwyr

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Pivoting the over b. You should all be pivoting that **** for spacing and mindgames purposed. Dash left, over b right. **** is effective at avoiding and then punishing. Also good for tricking people to roll certain ways, aiding in Flame Choke tech chasing.hin'.
Very useful, thanks for telling us this. But I need to clarify this after doing some tests. You can do the side-B from any point of a foxtrot, but you can't do a pivot side-B from a dash. If you dash further then a foxtrot, and try side-B in the opposite direction, it won't work.
 

Sliq

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Very useful, thanks for telling us this. But I need to clarify this after doing some tests. You can do the side-B from any point of a foxtrot, but you can't do a pivot side-B from a dash. If you dash further then a foxtrot, and try side-B in the opposite direction, it won't work.
Yeah, you can only change directions during the opening animations of the dash (or the length of your fox trot).

Is there any benefit to pivoting the Over-B as opposed to jumping and doing it back the other direction? If you start it while you're still close enough to the ground, you can still get most(all?) characters, and it does an extra 4-ish percent that Jekyll likes r(^_^)b
Well, there is always the chance that you miss the character because they are shorter, or have some weird landing animation. Plus, there is more lag when using it from the air, so if you missed, you are more ****ed. Didn't know the aerial version did more damage though.

I made a video of all this stuff. It is quite long, but it has me talking about certain things, and it displays the tricks I've found. Now that I write this, I realize I forgot one trick, which is the fact that you can fastfall your bair if oyu time it right, and still auto cancel it. It is faster this way, but only if you dash after landing. Ganon has lag from landing from a fastfall, which can be canceled by dashing one direction as you land.

I should have some video up, to illustrate this stuff soon. I need to edit the videos though, as they got longer than I wanted.

Yea, it's a semi-spike :p. Plus, using u-air for this purpose dates back to Melee, when it was called the eddy spike.
I knew about it in Melee, which is why I know about it in Brawl, but a lot of people call it the Tipman spike after Thomas Tipman. I'm not sure who came up with it first, Eddie or Tipman, but I thought Tipman sounded more appropriate, seeing as how you are hitting him with the tip of your feet. Plus Tipman sounds cooler, imho.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sliq111

I'm uploading Vids now. I have two shorter ones that are more concise about the Wizard Foot trick and also the Double Pivot Warlock Punch Recovery mentioned in the first post. Check on my youtube for them. I'll eventually edit everything nicely, but its 1:30 AM and I have work tomorrow. -_-

The 2 short vids are up, and at the top of the first post.
 

Jekyll

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Update:

You can only pivot the Choke of the Darkness flame during your initial dash animation (i.e. the fox trot animation).
You can actually reverse the Choke during the first few frames of it(I think all Forward-B moves do this now). So I just hit B while running to start the choke away from the opponent, and then immediately jam the stick backwards and he reverses. It might be easier to get the concept if you take it to training mode and turn down the speed.

That Warlock Punch recovery is madness...btw.
 

Rhyfelwyr

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You're right about the turn around side-B. The input is opposite of the foxtrot pivot.

To do a dash turn around side-B:
right side-B, left

To do a foxtrot pivot side-B:
Right, left side-B

I'm having trouble doing the warlock punch recovery. I do the double turn around, but I still only get the normal momentum change you get from doing a reverse warlock punch.
 

Sliq

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You're right about the turn around side-B. The input is opposite of the foxtrot pivot.

To do a dash turn around side-B:
right side-B, left

To do a foxtrot pivot side-B:
Right, left side-B

I'm having trouble doing the warlock punch recovery. I do the double turn around, but I still only get the normal momentum change you get from doing a reverse warlock punch.
That's realy all there is to it. Just do the built in pivot to the Murder Punch. Ganon changes directions and gains momentum behind him. The purpose of pivoting it twice is because you want to have the momentum carry you towards the stage, and preferrably punch towards the stage. The built in pivot is what gives you the momentum, but by pivoting it before starting it, you gain more distance and have a giant purple fist of murder guarding you as you descend towards the stage.
 

Rhyfelwyr

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Ah, okay, I thought it had to be something extra. I'll have to try using this in a match.

The side-b onto the stage you showed in a video is really useful.

EDIT: After some tests, I think the reverse warlock punch doesn't let you achieve a faster horizontal speed then normally allowed. It only has better acceleration. If you jump backwards with full DI and do a reverse warlock punch, you won't see any difference in speed or distance.

The warlock punch doesn't have any super armor, it doesn't even have good priority. It gets beaten by jabs.
 

Jekyll

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EDIT: After some tests, I think the reverse warlock punch doesn't let you achieve a faster horizontal speed then normally allowed. It only has better acceleration. If you jump backwards with full DI and do a reverse warlock punch, you won't see any difference in speed or distance.

The warlock punch doesn't have any super armor, it doesn't even have good priority. It gets beaten by jabs.
Shun the non-believer!!

SHUUUUUUUUN!!!!:grrr:
 

Sliq

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Ah, okay, I thought it had to be something extra. I'll have to try using this in a match.

The side-b onto the stage you showed in a video is really useful.

EDIT: After some tests, I think the reverse warlock punch doesn't let you achieve a faster horizontal speed then normally allowed. It only has better acceleration. If you jump backwards with full DI and do a reverse warlock punch, you won't see any difference in speed or distance.

The warlock punch doesn't have any super armor, it doesn't even have good priority. It gets beaten by jabs.
It will kill someone at like ****ing 30% if you hit them with it. The fact that you are flying across the world with a ohko move will keep people from trying to hit you, otherwise you knock their ****ing head off and send it into orbit. Plus, it has a pretty quiet start up, so if you do it in the magnifying glass, they might not even know that you are doing it.

Regardless of its usefullness, it still is ****ing cool. I mean, how often would you uise the warlock punch in a match if it weren't for this trick? Would zero be an accurate estimation?

Bottom line, this is awesome, and you are a parade rainer.
 

goodoldganon

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I posted this on the youtube video, but for the Murder Punch thing:

I have used this when jumping back when I'm hanging on the side of a stage. Ganon will get about halfway into Final D. I have caught a few people off guard with it before.
 

Sliq

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Isn't the murder punch recovery thing just a Recoil Special?
No, because as far as I know, no other characters are awesome enough to have a flaming purple murder punch.

When did I say you shouldn't do it, or that it's not awesome? I personally do think it's a great idea.
Well, you were poking holes in it, and it was making me sad. =<
 

Swoops

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^Lol...Nice rhyfelwyr...really nice. This person is putting their soul and hard work into this and you made them sad. It's okay Sliq...he didn't mean it.
 

joenm8r

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I have to admit, I'm impressed with this thread. It got off to a rough start but this stuff is decent.
 

Thinkaman

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This thread is the best thing to happen to Ganondorf since people started auto-canceling dairs. I'd make some sort of pun about how "this is pretty sliq stuff", but then you'd have to kill me. Meh, too late.

Edit: The double reverse-B definately DOES help recovery. Try the jumping down the right side of Hyrule Temple as Ganondorf without it; you can barely make it and you have to be precise. With a reverse warlock punch, it's so easy to can make it onto the platform and don't even need to grab the edge.

Never question murder.
 

Sliq

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Updated with some IASA info. I will probably organize this sometime. The newest update is at the bottom of the first post.
 

Rhyfelwyr

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Furthermore, his jab, f-tilt, and down tilt all have IASA frames, where you can start the same move again before the 1st one actually ends. I'll have videos up as soon as I can, but anyone familiar with IASA frames should know what I'm talking about.
The up-smash has IASA frames where you actually cancel the ending animation, and the speed is very noticeable. The jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt don't have very good IASA frames IMHO. The IASA isn't even before the end of the finishing animation for those moves.
 

Sliq

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The up-smash has IASA frames where you actually cancel the ending animation, and the speed is very noticeable. The jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt don't have very good IASA frames IMHO. The IASA isn't even before the end of the finishing animation for those moves.
Did you actually test the frame data for those moves, because I'mfairly certain that you can jab, then interrupt with a move much more noticeably quicker than by jumping or running.
 

Rhyfelwyr

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I zoomed in on training mode, and did the tilts and jabs over 100 times while trying different moves after wards, like crouching, or another attack and compared this to what it looks like when he stands noramally after. The tilts look like they don't have any IASA frames, but the Jab could possible have only a couple, nothing to get excited about.

The Up-smash on the other hand has crazy IASA frames. It's actually a true combo at low percents to do a thunder jab after up smash! IT'S THAT FAST! This means that there are extremely few lag frames after the disappearance of the hitbox. This is a very safe move discounting the start up.
 

Sliq

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I zoomed in on training mode, and did the tilts and jabs over 100 times while trying different moves after wards, like crouching, or another attack and compared this to what it looks like when he stands noramally after. The tilts look like they don't have any IASA frames, but the Jab could possible have only a couple, nothing to get excited about.

The Up-smash on the other hand has crazy IASA frames. It's actually a true combo at low percents to do a thunder jab after up smash! IT'S THAT FAST! This means that there are extremely few lag frames after the disappearance of the hitbox. This is a very safe move discounting the start up.
Well of course the up smash has awesome IASA, but the jabs and tilts seem to have some, and some is better than none.
 

Sliq

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Jab always sends too far, and side-B has start up lag. I don't think we'll ever see Ganondorf do a three hit combo in Brawl.
Just for that I'm doing a nair to up air combo and laughing right in Brawful's face.
 
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