Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Ok, well the title says it all, but basically I have a lot of interesting new ideas to push Bowser's metagame, but almost no time to play Brawl, let alone TEST any of his awesome ideas. Now, I could keep these cool secrets to myself or I could share them with you guys and have you see if they are super awesome or really ********. Let the fun begin!
The Klaw
Alright, I'm going to copypasta this from another thread.
Side B has 3 frames of landing lag. That is a negligible amount, seeing as a Fox nair L-CANCELED has more landing lag than this. What I am proposing:
Short hop in with side b, and upon landing, side b.
What this means. You go into approach. You jump in with a FF Klaw. If your opponent rolls or spot dodges, depending on the timing, you will be at the fram advantage. If they spot dodge, you can pretty much DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. For example, you sh in, ff klaw, they spot dodge, and you down b, hitting them as they come out of their spot dodge KO'ing them. Hell, you could Klaw again upon landing if you wanted. Plus, I think d-tilt would **** upon landing, since the double swipe will **** shields, and punish the person if they are able to spot dodge again.
The only down side is if they roll, but to be honest, unless they start their spot dodge super early, they shouldn't have time to roll dodge before they get hit. And if they do spot dodge early, you should have plenty of time to react to their counter measures.
I have no idea why I have not thought of this before or why no one else does this, but this is BROKE AS **** (on paper).
My new approach game is now larger because now I have AC fair, shielding, shield dashing away, grab, and now Klaw.
You can't shield the Klaw, so your ONLY reliable option to counter it is to dodge, which gives you the advantage, or intercepting with an aerial, and if you mix in all of your options, they will end up eating more AC fairs or mispacing a dash in shield, leading to DINO ****.
Furthermore, it does awesome damage, AND can be suicided for the win. The only hitch in the plan I see is that your opponent controls where you go, but this is a minor nuisance. If you are winning in percent then you control it, and if you are a stock down, you should be winning in percent anyways.
There really isn't any "testing" involved, so much as trying it in friendlies and finding out:
If this works (well)
What your opponent can do about it
What can be done after the sh Klaw
This is just to give you guys an idea of what to look for, but there is a lot of other things that can be discovered, so be creative with it.
Down Air
Down air is pretty ****ty in terms of almost everything, but I was curious if there was an application for it, and my only ideas were: to punish spot dodgers, or to punish air dodges.
The idea is that you force your opponent to air dodge either by simply being close to them or doing a full hop up air, forcing them to air dodge or eat an up air. Then, after they air dodge, you dair inside of them. I'm not sure if dair does a lot of damage, or is even viable for this, but I can bait air dodges pretty easily and I usually go with bair or fair, depending on where they go, but it could be interesting to space in a way that they are inside of you and you can dair them.
They idea is to dair them pretty high in the air, so that they get hit by it all, and maybe the move can end before you land. If this move does a lot of damage, then it will be VERY EASY to save bair for KO's as dair will murder in percent. Hell, if it does the same percent or even comparable percent, it will be better used than bair or fair. You could also use nair, but I had a feeling Bowser's dair did a lot of damaage.
Nair is also worth testing on these same grounds as it allows you to use a ****ty move for damage building and save your good moves for KO'ing, which you will need. Either way, you are damage building with **** moves, which keeps KO moves fresh and negates stale moves for your good moves, so it is win win.
Bowser Bomb
I'd be nice if someone took the time to make jpegs of all of Bowser moves, highlighting the hitbox for the moves in red. I was curious as to the range of a lot of his moves, most importantly down b, as I think it would be a good OOS option if you are able to land the initial hit into the KO portion, but unfortunately I am under the impression that his down b's initial hit range is not enough to warrant this being awesome.
Regardless, I'd like everyone to start using down b A LOT more in friendlies matches, trying to find out weird **** about how down b works. People have told me that you can air dodge out of it, but training mode begs to differ. Test it!
You should also test how low someones shield can be in order to break it with the down b. Down b ***** shields, and if you break a shield with Bowser, GG.
Klaw Jump Savior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUJUrgDSm14
We need to know if you can jump out of a suicide klaw. People need to test this and find a way to replicate it, because if they can, Yoshi's Island just became Bowser's best neutral, as you can Klaw KO, then bounce around near the blast zone (assuming you can infinite bounce off of the blast zone and not just jump out of the grab once) waiting for the support ghosts to reappear. You could also do this on Delfino Plaza, Brinstar, Norfair, etc., making Bowserciding a super broken ****ing tactic, since they die from 1 move and you live.
General Vital Information
Hitboxes
It would be nice to have someone test the range and hitboxes for Bowser, and make a hitbox thread in which you make an opacity of red over a screen cap of Bowser doing the move showing where the hitbox is, from start to finish. I can make a demo image to show what I mean. Regardless, it would be nice to know just for reference.
KO Percentages
It would also be nice to have rough KO percentages for every character. This would take a little bit of time to collect, but some stages are the same size as others, so you won't have to test EVERY stage. I would personally test KO percents from the center, far side, and short side with proper DI. It would be nice reference material, but is ultimately not entirely necessary.
Best Shield Wrecking Moves
A list of of the best moves that deplete shield would be a huge bonus. Recently, at a Melee tournament, I broke 2 people's shields with Jigglypuff because I knew Pound (neutral b) depletes shields a lot. If a move is unblockable in the sense that if they block it, they get shield broken, then you are pretty much way safer using unsafe moves. This leads to a broken shield and a bowser F smashed opponent.
I'm pretty sure d tilt and down b are high on that list, but it would also be nice to see if moves like dair are also useful in this department. Hell, even if it doesn't break, you'll still shield poke (firebreath for example).
That is all I have for now, but I'll add random stuff as I think of it.
The Klaw
Alright, I'm going to copypasta this from another thread.
Side B has 3 frames of landing lag. That is a negligible amount, seeing as a Fox nair L-CANCELED has more landing lag than this. What I am proposing:
Short hop in with side b, and upon landing, side b.
What this means. You go into approach. You jump in with a FF Klaw. If your opponent rolls or spot dodges, depending on the timing, you will be at the fram advantage. If they spot dodge, you can pretty much DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. For example, you sh in, ff klaw, they spot dodge, and you down b, hitting them as they come out of their spot dodge KO'ing them. Hell, you could Klaw again upon landing if you wanted. Plus, I think d-tilt would **** upon landing, since the double swipe will **** shields, and punish the person if they are able to spot dodge again.
The only down side is if they roll, but to be honest, unless they start their spot dodge super early, they shouldn't have time to roll dodge before they get hit. And if they do spot dodge early, you should have plenty of time to react to their counter measures.
I have no idea why I have not thought of this before or why no one else does this, but this is BROKE AS **** (on paper).
My new approach game is now larger because now I have AC fair, shielding, shield dashing away, grab, and now Klaw.
You can't shield the Klaw, so your ONLY reliable option to counter it is to dodge, which gives you the advantage, or intercepting with an aerial, and if you mix in all of your options, they will end up eating more AC fairs or mispacing a dash in shield, leading to DINO ****.
Furthermore, it does awesome damage, AND can be suicided for the win. The only hitch in the plan I see is that your opponent controls where you go, but this is a minor nuisance. If you are winning in percent then you control it, and if you are a stock down, you should be winning in percent anyways.
There really isn't any "testing" involved, so much as trying it in friendlies and finding out:
If this works (well)
What your opponent can do about it
-roll
-spot dodge
-aerial
-character specific
-Etc.
What you can do about your opponent doing about it-roll
-spot dodge
-aerial
-character specific
-Etc.
Follow upsWhat can be done after the sh Klaw
This is just to give you guys an idea of what to look for, but there is a lot of other things that can be discovered, so be creative with it.
Down Air
Down air is pretty ****ty in terms of almost everything, but I was curious if there was an application for it, and my only ideas were: to punish spot dodgers, or to punish air dodges.
The idea is that you force your opponent to air dodge either by simply being close to them or doing a full hop up air, forcing them to air dodge or eat an up air. Then, after they air dodge, you dair inside of them. I'm not sure if dair does a lot of damage, or is even viable for this, but I can bait air dodges pretty easily and I usually go with bair or fair, depending on where they go, but it could be interesting to space in a way that they are inside of you and you can dair them.
They idea is to dair them pretty high in the air, so that they get hit by it all, and maybe the move can end before you land. If this move does a lot of damage, then it will be VERY EASY to save bair for KO's as dair will murder in percent. Hell, if it does the same percent or even comparable percent, it will be better used than bair or fair. You could also use nair, but I had a feeling Bowser's dair did a lot of damaage.
Nair is also worth testing on these same grounds as it allows you to use a ****ty move for damage building and save your good moves for KO'ing, which you will need. Either way, you are damage building with **** moves, which keeps KO moves fresh and negates stale moves for your good moves, so it is win win.
Bowser Bomb
I'd be nice if someone took the time to make jpegs of all of Bowser moves, highlighting the hitbox for the moves in red. I was curious as to the range of a lot of his moves, most importantly down b, as I think it would be a good OOS option if you are able to land the initial hit into the KO portion, but unfortunately I am under the impression that his down b's initial hit range is not enough to warrant this being awesome.
Regardless, I'd like everyone to start using down b A LOT more in friendlies matches, trying to find out weird **** about how down b works. People have told me that you can air dodge out of it, but training mode begs to differ. Test it!
You should also test how low someones shield can be in order to break it with the down b. Down b ***** shields, and if you break a shield with Bowser, GG.
Klaw Jump Savior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUJUrgDSm14
We need to know if you can jump out of a suicide klaw. People need to test this and find a way to replicate it, because if they can, Yoshi's Island just became Bowser's best neutral, as you can Klaw KO, then bounce around near the blast zone (assuming you can infinite bounce off of the blast zone and not just jump out of the grab once) waiting for the support ghosts to reappear. You could also do this on Delfino Plaza, Brinstar, Norfair, etc., making Bowserciding a super broken ****ing tactic, since they die from 1 move and you live.
General Vital Information
Hitboxes
It would be nice to have someone test the range and hitboxes for Bowser, and make a hitbox thread in which you make an opacity of red over a screen cap of Bowser doing the move showing where the hitbox is, from start to finish. I can make a demo image to show what I mean. Regardless, it would be nice to know just for reference.
KO Percentages
It would also be nice to have rough KO percentages for every character. This would take a little bit of time to collect, but some stages are the same size as others, so you won't have to test EVERY stage. I would personally test KO percents from the center, far side, and short side with proper DI. It would be nice reference material, but is ultimately not entirely necessary.
Best Shield Wrecking Moves
A list of of the best moves that deplete shield would be a huge bonus. Recently, at a Melee tournament, I broke 2 people's shields with Jigglypuff because I knew Pound (neutral b) depletes shields a lot. If a move is unblockable in the sense that if they block it, they get shield broken, then you are pretty much way safer using unsafe moves. This leads to a broken shield and a bowser F smashed opponent.
I'm pretty sure d tilt and down b are high on that list, but it would also be nice to see if moves like dair are also useful in this department. Hell, even if it doesn't break, you'll still shield poke (firebreath for example).
That is all I have for now, but I'll add random stuff as I think of it.
<3
