Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[Ultinarok]

's Up Smash is the Most Powerful of the Up Smashes in Brawl, with , and 's Up Smashes behind him.
Trust me, I did the maths.
2 + 2 = Fish.

Actually it goes in that order, although Peach's requires a sweetspot, and Lucas' has the most favorable hitboxes but the worst lag. Fox' has overall the best utility, that's why he changed it, because his is fast AND very strong, with decent hitboxes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Everything subject to change, demo, blah blah blah. Based this off stuff Amsa posted on reddit a month back, a video from VGBC and Toomai's Hitboxes/bubbles from the Yoshi boards for Brawl.

Do not have stuff like get up attacks while laying on the ground or ledge attacks from regular to 100%+ slow ledge attacks.

Spoiler

Brawl Down-Smash: First hit 14% and second hit 13% (fully charged 19% for first hit and second hit 18%)
Smash 4 Down-Smash: First hit 13% and second hit 13% (fully charged 17%, most likely same for second hit)
Damage Difference: 1% less from first hit.


Brawl Neutral-Air: 12~9~6%
Smash 4 Neutral-Air: 9~5%
Damage Difference: 3% less for Clean hit and 1% less for late hit


Brawl Up-Air: 13%
Smash 4 Up-Air: 12%
Damage Difference: 1% Less


Brawl Forward-Air: 16% (sourspot) 15% (sweetspot)
Smash 4 Forward-Air: 14%
Damage Difference: Not sure on the Sour/Sweetspot % but 2% less for what we have so far.


Brawl Back-Air: 4% first hit, 3% second hit, 3% third hit, 4% last hit
Smash 4 Back-Air: 3% first hit, 3% second hit, 5% third hit/finisher
Damage Difference: Lost 3% overrall but 3rd hit having more knockback and 1% more than one of Brawl's 4% hits is decent.


Brawl Down-Air: 33% if every hit landed and in middle of kicks.
Smash 4 Down-Air: 33% if every hit landed.
Damage Difference: No Change


Brawl Up-tilt: 11% or 10% depending how you hit them with it.
Smash 4 Up-tilt: 7%
Damage Difference: 4% all together from what's shown so far.


Brawl Forward-tilt: Angled Up 10% Regular 9% down 8%
Smash 4 Forward-tilt: Angeled Up/Down 8% regular 7%
Damage Difference: 2% loss


Brawl Down-tilt: 10% if hit by middle of tail, 5% if the tip/sourspot
Smash 4 Down-tilt: 5%
Damage Difference: 5%, damage cut in half, no idea on tip of tail.


Brawl Dash Attack: 9% Clean hit 7% Weak hit
Smash 4 Dash Attack: 9% Clean hit 6% weak hit
Damage Difference: 1% less for weak hit.


Brawl Neutral B : 7%
Smash 4 Neutral B: 8%
Damage Difference: 1% more


Brawl Side-B: 4% Slow Speed 12% Max Speed
Smash 4 : 6% Slow Speed 9% Max Speed
Damage Difference: 2% more damage from no speed revved up, but 3% less from Maximum Speed.


Brawl Up-B: 9% sometimes 8%
Smash 4 Up-B: 6% sometimes 5%
Damage Difference: 3% less


Brawl Up-Throw: 5%
Smash 4 Up-Throw: 5%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Down-B: 15%
Smash 4 Down-B: 15%
Damage Difference: No Change for regular hit, not sure on Stars/Hop damage yet.


Brawl Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Smash 4 Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Down-Throw: 4%
Smash 4 Down-Throw: 4%
Damage Difference: No Change

 

[Egg.]

So should we be concerned by this slight reduction in damage for the majority of his attacks? Or is this happening with every character? Dtilt worries me especially, though I suppose a downward angled ftilt can suffice.

 

[Lukingordex]

Spoiler

Brawl Down-Smash: First hit 14% and second hit 13% (fully charged 19% for first hit and second hit 18%)
Smash 4 Down-Smash: First hit 13% and second hit 13% (fully charged 17%, most likely same for second hit)
Damage Difference: 1% less from first hit.


Brawl Neutral-Air: 12~9~6%
Smash 4 Neutral-Air: 9~5%
Damage Difference: 3% less for Clean hit and 1% less for late hit


Brawl Up-Air: 13%
Smash 4 Up-Air: 12%
Damage Difference: 1% Less


Brawl Forward-Air: 16% (sourspot) 15% (sweetspot)
Smash 4 Forward-Air: 14%
Damage Difference: Not sure on the Sour/Sweetspot % but 2% less for what we have so far.


Brawl Back-Air: 4% first hit, 3% second hit, 3% third hit, 4% last hit
Smash 4 Back-Air: 3% first hit, 3% second hit, 5% third hit/finisher
Damage Difference: Lost 3% overrall but 3rd hit having more knockback and 1% more than one of Brawl's 4% hits is decent.


Brawl Down-Air: 33% if every hit landed and in middle of kicks.
Smash 4 Down-Air: 33% if every hit landed.
Damage Difference: No Change


Brawl Up-tilt: 11% or 10% depending how you hit them with it.
Smash 4 Up-tilt: 7%
Damage Difference: 4% all together from what's shown so far.


Brawl Forward-tilt: Angled Up 10% Regular 9% down 8%
Smash 4 Forward-tilt: Angeled Up/Down 8% regular 7%
Damage Difference: 2% loss


Brawl Down-tilt: 10% if hit by middle of tail, 5% if the tip/sourspot
Smash 4 Down-tilt: 5%
Damage Difference: 5%, damage cut in half, no idea on tip of tail.


Brawl Dash Attack: 9% Clean hit 7% Weak hit
Smash 4 Dash Attack: 9% Clean hit 6% weak hit
Damage Difference: 1% less for weak hit.


Brawl Neutral B : 7%
Smash 4 Neutral B: 8%
Damage Difference: 1% more


Brawl Side-B: 4% Slow Speed 12% Max Speed
Smash 4 : 6% Slow Speed 9% Max Speed
Damage Difference: 2% more damage from no speed revved up, but 3% less from Maximum Speed.


Brawl Up-B: 9% sometimes 8%
Smash 4 Up-B: 6% sometimes 5%
Damage Difference: 3% less


Brawl Up-Throw: 5%
Smash 4 Up-Throw: 5%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Down-B: 15%
Smash 4 Down-B: 15%
Damage Difference: No Change for regular hit, not sure on Stars/Hop damage yet.


Brawl Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Smash 4 Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Down-Throw: 4%
Smash 4 Down-Throw: 4%
Damage Difference: No Change

This worries me

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I'll take the damage nerf for the few buffs we got. Only thing that worries me is the lack of DJC. There goes half my mixup game.

 

[Lukingordex]

Maybe the damage nerf won't be a bad thing if Yoshi receives his deserved buff on kill moves.

 

[Nikes]

Though it's not desirable, Dtilt getting a damage nerf isn't too bad since it's not really an offensive move to start with. Still weird for it to get a nerf though :s

I'll take the damage nerf for the few buffs we got. Only thing that worries me is the lack of DJC. There goes half my mixup game.

Wait, are DJC'd specials gone?

 

[Sinister Slush]

No we can still cancel our DJ with specials. Just with how fast DJ is now we can't possibly do stuff like DR anymore from the looks of it.
Until we get the game for any of us to test for ourselves (I'm not gonna be one of those people, not gonna get Smash 4 on 3DS unless somebody else in my town lets me play it lol) then we won't have anything confirmed till October.

 

[Nikes]

Oh good, I was gonna say...
As soon as the game comes out I'll see how much stuff's transitioned over from brawl like ATs, DJC'd wavebounced neutral B needs to be there.

 

[Yikarur]

As far as demo videos are concerned, in this game everyone kills a lot earlier than before so the damage buff is just fair I guess.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Does he have super armor on his second jump like in melee?

 

[Bedoop]

Does he have super armor on his second jump like in melee?

He had it in Brawl too, so I think it'll stay.

 

[Lukingordex]

The real question is: will the super armor on his double jump be REALLY useful this time? Wasn't very useful in brawl

 

[Sinister Slush]

I really hope so.
Please be Top Tier, Yoshi. Even though your moveset still screams middle of mid tier at most, maybe even low tier from how all the mechanics have changed in Smash 4.

 

[Nikes]

I really hope so.
Please be Top Tier, Yoshi. Even though your moveset still screams middle of mid tier at most, maybe even low tier from how all the mechanics have changed in Smash 4.

Smash 4's been kinder to Yoshi than Brawl was, for one thing the new ledge mechanics benefit Yoshi, and just his stance alone gives him actual-justified hurtboxes. Lack of jumping OoS in Brawl held him back which no longer plagues us, and it looks like his general movesets received improvements all-around. If he's only really received buffs in this game I can't see him being low tier personally. (Which will be a very nice break.)
What are your concerns?

 

[RPGatWill]

I've always liked Yoshi. He was my favorite in 64 and seeing him fall off the battle charts in melee and especially brawl hurt my heart. I especially have always enjoyed his dair, so it'll be fun to try that out again.

The biggest change in spite of the seeming simplicity of it is that Yoshi now stands more upright like the other smashers and has the hit box fix, hopefully. I've never been good at the egg roll but I'm willing to learn.

 

[Nikes]

Someone played Yoshi on the 3DS tournament stream today and got an egg-lay on villager, and he still fell fast and took ages to escape the egg. Villager isn't exactly a fast-faller so that should take care of anybody's concerns for the move.

EDIT: No more special fall from aerial egg roll cancel, we can jump out of it!

 

[Vann Accessible]

I don't know if anyone brought this up, but I found it to be a cool little nod to Yoshi's Island/Story.

When Yoshi is an alternate color, his egg shield and Forward B egg roll seem to turn the same color. I noticed this several times at the SDCC with the Yellow Yoshi. His up B eggs are still green however.

Kinda neat.

 

[Nikes]

We've seen this since E3, but still it's so great how they finally fixed that.
The throwing eggs are generally green by default so that's fine.

 

[YoshiandToad]

EDIT: No more special fall from aerial egg roll cancel, we can jump out of it!

Saw this yesterday and nearly shed tears of joy. Between this and what appeared to be improved priority, I am incredibly psyched to get playing Yoshi on Smash 4.

Pardon me for asking, as this has probably already been pointed out, but does Yoshi's Egg Throw still give him a little airtime? I don't recall seeing it yesterday.

 

[Nikes]

Pardon me for asking, as this has probably already been pointed out, but does Yoshi's Egg Throw still give him a little airtime? I don't recall seeing it yesterday.

Yep, but we think it's been reduced down to about 3 hops by the looks of things. There might be more momentum in each throw than there was in Brawl too. o:

 

[Sinister Slush]

Whoops.
The thing about no freefall for people that did have it in the rest of the games (fox falco IC wolf yoshi MK etc.) have been known for a few months now but I guess I forgot to put it down lol. My bad.

The Stream yesterday didn't show much, tho since we don't get put in freefall, gashi and I caught a random split second moment on gerudo valley (bridge with slight slopes when you get off the bridge) where Yoshi flew up in the air while eggrolling and when he got out he could've possibly followed up with another move since he hit somebody. It just looked mad cute is all.

Oh, and I hope it's not real, but in that same match while he was eggrolling, Pika Fsmashed and it clanked, but the thing is Yoshi's egg turned brown. I hope Sakurai didn't make it where if our eggroll is hit by stuff it doesn't make our shield go down as well.

 

[Yosher]

I'm really glad that they finally assigned the right Yoshi egg color to the color Yoshi is in play.
Regarding his egg toss/egg lay eggs though, I think it would be neat if those would at least have a random chance of being green, yellow and red, and very rarely maybe a flashing egg.
That could be just cosmetic, but it could indicate different strengths too with different appearance chances; green being weakest (60%), yellow dealing a bit more damage (25%), red dealing more damage AND knockback (10%), and the flashing ones being explosive ones (5%). Just to indicate their helpfulness from Yoshi's Island. Perhaps they can even add in effects to let the corresponding item fall out of the eggs that popped out of those in Yoshi's island (coin for yellow, 2 slightly damage healing stars for red, red coin for the flashing ones).

Just my two cents on making the none-color-corresponding egg-related moves more personalized as well.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Yep, but we think it's been reduced down to about 3 hops by the looks of things. There might be more momentum in each throw than there was in Brawl too. o:

I haven't seen anyone try to do more than 2 or 3, but I'm pretty sure its the same again. The game + Yoshi in general is just faster and less floaty. Besides the only time people ever blow that many eggs offstage is if they ece so we won't be seeing any of that until the game comes out.

Side note I find it hilarious how people were saying that it looked slower than brawl while they were watching bowser dittos.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Ehhhh too much RNG for my tastes, but its a cool idea. At least making them different colors would be nice.

 

[Yosher]

It's not like it would be the first move with RNG. Just look at Peach's Turnips, Game&Watch's Judge, or Luigi's Green Missile. I'd be happy if it was just purely cosmetic though, the different strengths was just an added idea.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oddly enough I found it faster because it was Bowser dittos.

 

[TimeSmash]

How nice! It was a long overdue change. Sakurai's really paying attention to character cosmetics this time around, liek how Eruption is blue now

 

[Egg.]

Egg toss definitely only gives like 2-3 jumps this time, the 3rd throw only halts his momentum without giving any upwards boost in this video. It seems like the first jump is much higher than before though!

Also, all of the hatred on the 3DS Grand Finals in the YouTube comments is really irritating... though I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the excessively opinionated nature of many YouTube commenters.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Reading Youtube comments was your first mistake.
Over the years + Google+ needed to post, they're about as intelligent as Twitch chat.

 

[Nikes]

That first egg toss is really good.

People don't hardly think for their selves these days when joining a popular opinion because they're afraid of standing out, like how everyone was calling it Brawl 2.0 before when it isn't. You could try asking them why they feel this way and 90% of them won't really have a thought out answer. :s

 

[Yikarur]

it's way better to get a lot of small boosts then 1 strong boost..
I dislike that a lot :/

 

[Slice~]

That first egg toss is really good.

Looks like a double jump to me (see the rings beneath Yoshi?)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well yeah the VBGC guy used Double Jump before the first eggtoss because nobody was able to turn tab jump off/make names to change controller settings if Sakurai implemented that in the demos yet.

 

[Yikarur]

even worse xD

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean, if you want to see. Either look for videos or go to the OP and look at the gif I made lol

 

[Yikarur]

I took you example and made few ifs to show some things that fell in my eye.

Few Eggs, most eggs thrown were full power :/ I havent seen a single ECE as well.

It seems that you can control your momentum while you're throwing an egg.
In Brawl your momentum where completely depending on the momentum when you were initializing the egg throw.

DJC Egg Lay confirmed in GIF-Form =D At least I guess that was what he was doing..

 

[Sinister Slush]

2nd and 3rd gif was known, not sure what you mean with the first one cause I know I saw an ETS and if we can ETS we can most likely ECE too since it's still kinda Brawl's ledge mechanics and we can grab the ledge while facing away from it still.

What I find more funny with that 3rd gif is an airborne Eggroll is clanking with a grounded move. While also giving Yoshi enough time to even DJC Egglay from the tiny hop when he gets out of his eggroll.

 

[Yikarur]

I made the GIF because I haven't seen a single gif or video where the DJC Egg Lay was shown. The momentum thing was also new to me.
The DJC Egg Lay from the egg roll is really interesting.

I want this game so badly

 

[Yosher]

It seems that you can control your momentum while you're throwing an egg.
In Brawl your momentum where completely depending on the momentum when you were initializing the egg throw.

I can see this in particular being used pretty well for mindgames here and there. Especially if you're also able to control Yoshi backwards while throwing an egg. Too bad you won't be able to toss an egg far AND go backwards~