Shroom for the Stars: Captain Toad for Smash 4! CHAPTER 11: IT'S A MII; TOAD!

[WeirdChillFever]

And the Mario series in general.

I don't see why a platform would need to ram into anyone (and if it did, that could easily be a part of the up special).

Then what's the point of the propeller platform, and how exactly does Captain Toad recover?

It gives Captain Toad mobility, like Egg Roll.
With the Mushroom Trampoline

I still think it should be a special. After all, smashes can't be used in midair, and Captain Toad would likely want to move while constantly using the pickaxe to destroy multiple things. Perhaps you could hold down the input to constantly swing the pickaxe while moving.

That's true, it should be used in mid-air.

What would that do exactly?

It's that ammo box idea

That might be too similar to the normal mushroom platforms.

It could change color to indicate the jumpy-ness

So, here's my list of possible specials:

• Neutral Special: Super Pickaxe - Destroy any structures that Captain Toad has laid down by swinging the pickaxe. Hold the button to move while swinging similarly to the hammer item.
• Up Special: Platform - Hold and release on the ground to create a Battlefield platform-sized mushroom platform (Captain Toad plucks it out from a sprout), increasing in height with charge and having a climbable stalk. Smash input to make the top bouncy and orange; these can be on the ground as well. You can have up to two of the aforementioned mushroom platforms out at any given time. Using this in the air creates a propeller platform, which carries the Captain up; he can attack during this, and while he can't make structures, he can use Up Special for an extra gust upwards, Neutral Special to destroy the platform and fall, and move left or right to steer.
• Side Special: Turnip Cannon - Place a turnip cannon on the ground, which fires turnips straight forwards automatically; one can be out at a time. You can also aim it manually.
• Down Special: Minecart Track - Hold down the input to create a minecart track along the ground, and release to end the track and place a minecart. It goes back and forth along the track, and acts as essentially a moving soft platform (no hitbox). Anyone can ride it, and Captain Toad can destroy an end of the track to make the minecart fly off, carrying opponents potentially to their doom. The track then disappears, and Captain a Toad can make a new one.

I'd switch Down and Side Specials, after all, the track goes sideways.
I dunno, it feels more intuitive this way.

Ooh and maybe you can aim the track like Pac-Man's Side B to get a roller-coaster-esque track.

Compliments again for the Turnip Turret, it really embodies the engineer trope.

Replies in red again

 

[Munomario777]

It gives Captain Toad mobility, like Egg Roll.

Isn't the platform going up?

With the Mushroom Trampoline

His air mobility is terrible, though. I think a movable platform would be better for recovery than a bounce up that he can barely make use of due to his low air speed and high falling speed. He could have them both as options, though; regular input for a propeller platform, and smash input for a bouncy one.

It's that ammo box idea

I don't really see the point of Captain Toad having to "reload" to attack. He already has enough stuff to manage what with the platforms, minecarts, etc. I do have an idea, though. Maybe one of his smash attacks involves plucking a turnip, and during the charging period, Captain Toad holds the turnip above his head, and he can actually move around during this? And then he'd throw it when you release the smash attack button.

It could change color to indicate the jumpy-ness

Perhaps the regular ones could be red, and the jumpy ones could be orange (and both would be in the "rounded square" shape like the 3D World style jumpy ones)?

I'd switch Down and Side Specials, after all, the track goes sideways.
I dunno, it feels more intuitive this way.

Well, he is laying the track below him on the ground as he walks. Plus, the cannon would probably be placed in front.

Ooh and maybe you can aim the track like Pac-Man's Side B to get a roller-coaster-esque track.

I like the idea, but I'm just not sure how exactly he could place it down.

Compliments again for the Turnip Turret, it really embodies the engineer trope.

Thanks!

 

[ChikoLad]

Dunno if this idea has been included, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

Spoiler

What if Sakurai added a slight original element like ZSS's Jet Boots, and gave the bottom of Captain Toad's backpack hidden rocket compartments, essentially making his backpack double as a jetpack, and that was how he jumps? It could just be used for his standard jumps.

For his recovery/Up B, I'd go with a Cannon Clear Pipe, that more or less works just like Rosalina's Launch Star. This would also solve the problem of "how does a low air speed character recover well?", as it would be aimable. Rosalina didn't have an air speed problem, but horizontal Launch Stars make her horizontal recovery very quick, and I think Captain Toad could use something like that even more. For visual flair, you could add the jet-backpack propulsion being active, but it wouldn't actually effect anything:

While it would essentially be a clone of Rosalina's Up B, I seriously don't think any characters need very unique recoveries, just something thematically appropriate. Cannon Clear Pipes work thematically as they were used a lot in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, especially in boss fights/combat focused levels. Gimmicky and super unique recoveries have always just fell flat practically/competitively, like PK Thunder and Elwind (the former because it's easily gimpable, and characters like Rosalina and Villager can literally steal the thunder bolt. The latter due to relying on Robin's tome system, so he/she can at times have no recovery if he/she had to use it too much).

If you wanted to diversify it a bit from Rosalina's default Launch Star, it could simply have a little less range, but it has an active hitbox, so it can be an attack too.

 

[Munomario777]

Dunno if this idea has been included, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

Spoiler

What if Sakurai added a slight original element like ZSS's Jet Boots, and gave the bottom of Captain Toad's backpack hidden rocket compartments, essentially making his backpack double as a jetpack, and that was how he jumps? It could just be used for his standard jumps.

For his recovery/Up B, I'd go with a Cannon Clear Pipe, that more or less works just like Rosalina's Launch Star. This would also solve the problem of "how does a low air speed character recover well?", as it would be aimable. Rosalina didn't have an air speed problem, but horizontal Launch Stars make her horizontal recovery very quick, and I think Captain Toad could use something like that even more. For visual flair, you could add the jet-backpack propulsion being active, but it wouldn't actually effect anything:

While it would essentially be a clone of Rosalina's Up B, I seriously don't think any characters need very unique recoveries, just something thematically appropriate. Cannon Clear Pipes work thematically as they were used a lot in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, especially in boss fights/combat focused levels. Gimmicky and super unique recoveries have always just fell flat practically/competitively, like PK Thunder and Elwind (the former because it's easily gimpable, and characters like Rosalina and Villager can literally steal the thunder bolt. The latter due to relying on Robin's tome system, so he/she can at times have no recovery if he/she had to use it too much).

If you wanted to diversify it a bit from Rosalina's default Launch Star, it could simply have a little less range, but it has an active hitbox, so it can be an attack too.

I'm not sure how I feel about Captain Toad having a jet pack (since his whole gimmick in his games is that he can't jump, or at the very least is a terrible jumper). If you're going to give him good jumps, though, that would be the way to do it.

As for the cannon idea, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. If we're going with the whole engineer approach where he makes things to aid himself, I think a propeller platform would be the better choice, since a gimpable recovery like that would compliment his relatively high weight due to his backpack (so he's not knocked off too often to begin with) and his bad air mobility, and plus, I feel it fits a bit better thematically (cannons are at the end of pipes and used for long distances, while propeller platforms are by themselves and used for short distances, like recovering to a stage). If you think about it, it's probably a bit less gimpable, since he'd have access to his ground attacks and all.

If we're not using the engineer interpretation, then I think it's a toss up between the cannon and the propeller box. The propeller box would allow him to control his recovery's height more but still make it a bit lackluster at least horizontally, which is fitting since Captain Toad falls like a rock in his own game. Plus, it could work well with his tether recovery (whereas I assume the cannon would put him into helpless).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Isn't the platform going up?

No, it drives forward

His air mobility is terrible, though. I think a movable platform would be better for recovery than a bounce up that he can barely make use of due to his low air speed and high falling speed. He could have them both as options, though; regular input for a propeller platform, and smash input for a bouncy one.

Maybe the stem can push him very high, or he could pull the mushroom upwards like a big plant?
You could even let it drive forward like the big mushroom from 3D Word.
I'd namely rather unify the designs instead of having a propellor in the air and a mushroom on the ground.

I don't really see the point of Captain Toad having to "reload" to attack. He already has enough stuff to manage what with the platforms, minecarts, etc. I do have an idea, though. Maybe one of his smash attacks involves plucking a turnip, and during the charging period, Captain Toad holds the turnip above his head, and he can actually move around during this? And then he'd throw it when you release the smash attack button.

Then you can just as easy have the Turnip Turret as the forward smash?
At least the pluck can be incorporated as a Down Tilt.

Perhaps the regular ones could be red, and the jumpy ones could be orange (and both would be in the "rounded square" shape like the 3D World style jumpy ones)?

Yes, that's good

Well, he is laying the track below him on the ground as he walks. Plus, the cannon would probably be placed in front.

Yeah, but he moves sideways as he lays the track.

I like the idea, but I'm just not sure how exactly he could place it down.

I have no idea either

Thanks!

No problem

You get the drill

As for the cannon, if we go for the "Captain Toad can't jump (well)" idea, he needs something to aid his jumps or act as one and a Launch Star clone doesn't work well for that.

It could work as a kill throw though, launching enemies to the blast-zone.

 

[Munomario777]

No, it drives forward

Isn't that what the minecart does?

Maybe the stem can push him very high, or he could pull the mushroom upwards like a big plant?

You could even let it drive forward like the big mushroom from 3D Word.

Pull it upwards from where? He's recovering; he's in midair. There's no ground here.

I'd namely rather unify the designs instead of having a propellor in the air and a mushroom on the ground.

I think it'd be simpler to have all of the platforms on one input, but used in certain situations, rather than each one having a different input. Plus, what would the mushroom platform do in midair?

Then you can just as easy have the Turnip Turret as the forward smash?

No, because that's more of a structure. It stays out; it's not just there for that one attack.

At least the pluck can be incorporated as a Down Tilt.

Indeed it can.

Yeah, but he moves sideways as he lays the track.

And he places it below him.

As for the cannon, if we go for the "Captain Toad can't jump (well)" idea, he needs something to aid his jumps or act as one and a Launch Star clone doesn't work well for that.

It could work as a kill throw though, launching enemies to the blast-zone.

Ooh, I like that idea!

 

[YoshiandToad]

What if...Captain Toad does a Gromit with the track pieces:

LAY THE TRACK QUICK CAPTAIN.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not sure how I feel about Captain Toad having a jet pack (since his whole gimmick in his games is that he can't jump, or at the very least is a terrible jumper). If you're going to give him good jumps, though, that would be the way to do it.

As for the cannon idea, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. If we're going with the whole engineer approach where he makes things to aid himself, I think a propeller platform would be the better choice, since a gimpable recovery like that would compliment his relatively high weight due to his backpack (so he's not knocked off too often to begin with) and his bad air mobility, and plus, I feel it fits a bit better thematically (cannons are at the end of pipes and used for long distances, while propeller platforms are by themselves and used for short distances, like recovering to a stage). If you think about it, it's probably a bit less gimpable, since he'd have access to his ground attacks and all.

If we're not using the engineer interpretation, then I think it's a toss up between the cannon and the propeller box. The propeller box would allow him to control his recovery's height more but still make it a bit lackluster at least horizontally, which is fitting since Captain Toad falls like a rock in his own game. Plus, it could work well with his tether recovery (whereas I assume the cannon would put him into helpless).

My idea for Captain Toad isn't that he would be an engineer, because he honestly never showed any prowess in the field. He's never shown making anything. Even the Starshroom in Galaxy was constructed by Lumas and members of the Toad Brigade, and the blueprints probably came from Rosalina since she originally fixed a Starshroom for herself and a Luma as a child, in the storybook. In Galaxy, they had the running gag that the Captain was too lazy to actually contribute to a lot of things, and got his "underlings" to do most of the work. And In Galaxy 2, it's explained that one of the Lumas that fell down to Peach's Castle built a new Starshroom for the Toad Brigade to head to space.

And it goes without saying that he doesn't exactly build anything in his own game or 3D World. His shtick is adventuring and using whatever tools he HAPPENS to find, not building gadgets in advance.

My idea for him overall is that most of what he does would be accidental. The jetpack thing could be given a simple backstory, maybe just say in his trophy "some Lumas from Lubba's crew and the members of the Toad Brigade made it for him", as a reference to the Galaxy games. But for most other things, I would prefer it to look like Captain Toad really isn't even trying to hurt anybody and isn't exactly prepared. This was the prevalent theme of his character - he's scared of what's going on and mostly doesn't understand it, but just rolls with it anyway. Even when he defeats a big monster like Dragadon, it's because the platform with the Power Star falls down on his head. And with Wingo, he was only able to beat him because he threw Wingo's turnips back at the bird when it left them in the ground and didn't destroy them (Wingo will eventually do this in the boss fight though - he's slow on the uptake, however).

The Cannon Clear Pipe fits in with that because it would literally just appear on top of him. There would be a brief pause with him wiggling around helplessly (at which point you aim it):

And then it shoots him off. He could even be invulnerable while inside of it.

 

[Munomario777]

My idea for Captain Toad isn't that he would be an engineer, because he honestly never showed any prowess in the field. He's never shown making anything. Even the Starshroom in Galaxy was constructed by Lumas and members of the Toad Brigade, and the blueprints probably came from Rosalina since she originally fixed a Starshroom for herself and a Luma as a child, in the storybook. In Galaxy, they had the running gag that the Captain was too lazy to actually contribute to a lot of things, and got his "underlings" to do most of the work. And In Galaxy 2, it's explained that one of the Lumas that fell down to Peach's Castle built a new Starshroom for the Toad Brigade to head to space. And it goes without saying that he doesn't exactly build anything in his own game or 3D World. His shtick is adventuring and using whatever tools he HAPPENS to find, not building gadgets in advance.

My idea for him overall is that most of what he does would be accidental. The jetpack thing could be given a simple backstory, maybe just say in his trophy "some Lumas from Lubba's crew and the members of the Toad Brigade made it for him", as a reference to the Galaxy games. But for most other things, I would prefer it to look like Captain Toad really isn't even trying to hurt anybody and isn't exactly prepared. This was the prevalent theme of his character - he's scared of what's going on and mostly doesn't understand it, but just rolls with it anyway. Even when he defeats a big monster like Dragadon, it's because the platform with the Power Star falls down on his head. And with Wingo, he was only able to beat him because he threw Wingo's turnips back at the bird when it left them in the ground and didn't destroy them (Wingo will eventually do this in the boss fight though - he's slow on the uptake, however).

The Cannon Clear Pipe fits in with that because it would literally just appear on top of him. There would be a brief pause with him wiggling around helplessly (at which point you aim it):

And then it shoots him off. He could even be invulnerable while inside of it.

Fair enough. I'm thinking more gameplay wise than character wise, and the engineer idea seems to be more unique in that regard. I can see what you're saying though. Perhaps the things in the "engineer" set could simply appear in front of him like you're saying, rather than him actually pulling them out. He uses the Up Special, and a mushroom platform suddenly grows out of the ground beneath him as he's carried up, taking him by surprise. He's about to fall, but a propeller platform "poofs" in below him and starts to carry him up as he covers his eyes in fear, and then realizes what's happening and returns to normal. He sees a switch appear in front of him, his curiosity gets the best of him, and suddenly, an entire cannon comes out of the ground! It might be a bit awkward for the minecart track; not quite sure how to make that work. I think we could have the best of both worlds here; something true to what Captain Toad's character represents, and also something unique gameplay-wise. Gameplay-wise, he's an "engineer", but in reality, things just happen and he rolls with them, like you said. Heck, we could even incorporate the Gamepad functionality from 3D World and Treasure Tracker in here somehow; perhaps the "glove" appears and places in the objects, or snaps its fingers and "poofs" them in? In fact, that could also be how the train tracks work! Ah, possibilities.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Isn't that what the minecart does?

Yes, it does, okay

Pull it upwards from where? He's recovering; he's in midair. There's no ground here.

From the stem that reaches to the blast line
Or it floats in mid-air like the trampolines in 3D World.

I think it'd be simpler to have all of the platforms on one input, but used in certain situations, rather than each one having a different input. Plus, what would the mushroom platform do in midair?

Lift him up?
Let him jump really high?
I checked 3D World, even Toad can jump very high when jumping on the mushroom trampoline.
Also note the Mushroom Gorge mushrooms can lift entire karts.

No, because that's more of a structure. It stays out; it's not just there for that one attack.

Yeah true

Indeed it can.

And he places it below him.

Ooh, I like that idea!

BTW, Engineer was just a name for using different props, it isn't neccesary to let him build it.

 

[ChikoLad]

I think him fighting accidentally is perfectly unique, since every other character in Smash very much seems like they are intentionally fighting back. Bowser Jr already covers the engineer shtick, since that's part of his character even in Mario games. And although they don't show it in Smash, I would give Mario & Luigi (plumbers by profession. You also have Wrecking Crew), Bowser (builds plenty of trap filled castles, Jr takes after him), Rosalina (she designed and partially built the Comet Observatory by herself, and repaired Luma's Starshroom, and did both of these from a very young age. In Mario Kart bios, she's also mentioned as being particularly fond of racing, represented in-game by how unusually excited she gets and how she favours bigger vehicles with more horsepower - she's basically a gearhead just like Bowser Jr, even if it isn't her primary character trait), and Luma (they build Starshrooms, including the ones Captain Toad used) moves involving construction before I would make a moveset based around construction to Captain Toad.

For a point of comparison, Nathan Drake in Playstation All-Stars had moves based around "unlucky stuff happening to him and it working out for him", and just so happens to be a treasure hunter. I basically imagine a similar moveset to that for Captain Toad, only with more appropriate aesthetics (like change shooting a pistol behind cover to throwing turnips while hiding in a mine cart).

It wasn't his entire moveset (also this video contains footage from the Uncharted games which are rated PEGI 16, so keep that in mind), but I imagine a similar moveset for Captain Toad, with a much bigger emphasis on the "accident" side. I also think Drake's cover mechanic in All-Stars could serve as inspiration for similar move for Captain Toad, like a mine cart full of turnips.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

It's just a name for the moveset, of course Captain Toad would be scared half of the time like he is in Treasure Tracker.
Whether Captain Toad builds a Turnip Turret or it poofs into battle, it's the same move neverthenless.
I just thought building his contraptions (since he can't exactly fight by himself) is a better way to let Captain Toad use them then just magically poof them in.

The big picture here is creating a moveset that allows Captain Toad overcome his clear weaknesses by having lively contraptions helping him, not making him a Bob the Builder.
Building them was just an easy and clear way to let these contraptions enter the battlefield.

If you're that dead set on not having him any building skills at all, let them come out of his backpack.
That he just shakes his bag in the hope there's something good in it and then let him summon him the things he need without him even knowing it and let the Captain work from there.

 

[Munomario777]

From the stem that reaches to the blast line
Or it floats in mid-air like the trampolines in 3D World.

Lift him up?
Let him jump really high?
I checked 3D World, even Toad can jump very high when jumping on the mushroom trampoline.
Also note the Mushroom Gorge mushrooms can lift entire karts.

This wouldn't do much good, though. Remember, Captain Toad has horrible air mobility. He can barely move left and right. A bouncy platform or one that takes him high up wouldn't be much good for his horizontal recovery, whereas a propeller platform that he can influence to move sideways would.

BTW, Engineer was just a name for using different props, it isn't neccesary to let him build it.

My point exactly.

I think him fighting accidentally is perfectly unique, since every other character in Smash very much seems like they are intentionally fighting back. Bowser Jr already covers the engineer shtick, since that's part of his character even in Mario games. And although they don't show it in Smash, I would give Mario & Luigi (plumbers by profession. You also have Wrecking Crew), Bowser (builds plenty of trap filled castles, Jr takes after him), Rosalina (she designed and partially built the Comet Observatory by herself, and repaired Luma's Starshroom, and did both of these from a very young age. In Mario Kart bios, she's also mentioned as being particularly fond of racing, represented in-game by how unusually excited she gets and how she favours bigger vehicles with more horsepower - she's basically a gearhead just like Bowser Jr, even if it isn't her primary character trait), and Luma (they build Starshrooms, including the ones Captain Toad used) moves involving construction before I would make a moveset based around construction to Captain Toad.

For a point of comparison, Nathan Drake in Playstation All-Stars had moves based around "unlucky stuff happening to him and it working out for him", and just so happens to be a treasure hunter. I basically imagine a similar moveset to that for Captain Toad, only with more appropriate aesthetics (like change shooting a pistol behind cover to throwing turnips while hiding in a mine cart).

It wasn't his entire moveset (also this video contains footage from the Uncharted games which are rated PEGI 16, so keep that in mind), but I imagine a similar moveset for Captain Toad, with a much bigger emphasis on the "accident" side. I also think Drake's cover mechanic in All-Stars could serve as inspiration for similar move for Captain Toad, like a mine cart full of turnips.

Yes, it's unique from an aesthetic standpoint, but I'm talking about from a gameplay perspective. Captain Toad would be the only one to fight "accidentally", sure, but that doesn't really mean much aside from aesthetics and animations. Bowser Jr. isn't an engineer in the sense that I'm referring to; he doesn't build things to help him in battle. That's what I'm referring to. It's like how Rosalina is called a "puppet character", but Luma isn't a puppet; it's an actual living thing. The same sort of thing applies to Captain Toad; he'd play like an "engineer", with structures and such being part of his moveset, but he's not actually building them; they're just appearing. He doesn't have to be actually "building" the things for him to play like this; as I said earlier, he could just happen to be where a mushroom grows out of the ground, or a platform could just "poof" underneath him. It's like the cannon idea you had, but they stick around for a longer period of time.

I see Captain Toad as:
Aesthetically, he's an "accidental" fighter. He doesn't make things happen; they happen, and he rolls with it. (And he attacks sometimes too of course.) He's walking along, and a mushroom platform pops up out of the ground, carrying him up into the skies. He decides to use this to, say, drop things down onto the opponents below him. That sort of thing.

Mechanically, he's an "engineer" fighter. The player uses constructs to aid Captain Toad and to use for positioning, spacing, and more, somewhat like the Gamepad's function in his games. Sure, Captain Toad himself doesn't make that mushroom platform appear, but the player does. You can use this for strategy, tactics, and the like while still maintaining Captain Toad's personality and character. Captain Toad isn't one to build platforms and the like to help him out, but that doesn't prevent the player from doing that for him, just like, again, the Gamepad in 3D World and Treasure Tracker.

It's just a name for the moveset, of course Captain Toad would be scared half of the time like he is in Treasure Tracker.
Whether Captain Toad builds a Turnip Turret or it poofs into battle, it's the same move neverthenless.
I just thought building his contraptions (since he can't exactly fight by himself) is a better way to let Captain Toad use them then just magically poof them in.

The big picture here is creating a moveset that allows Captain Toad overcome his clear weaknesses by having lively contraptions helping him, not making him a Bob the Builder.
Building them was just an easy and clear way to let these contraptions enter the battlefield.

If you're that dead set on not having him any building skills at all, let them come out of his backpack.
That he just shakes his bag in the hope there's something good in it and then let him summon him the things he need without him even knowing it and let the Captain work from there.

That's an option, but I think we could also use the "glove" that appears when you use the Gamepad in 3D World and Treasure Tracker. Captain Toad's walking along, and then the glove appears and pulls up a mushroom platform out of the ground, with Captain Toad along for the ride. The longer you hold the button, the longer the glove pulls it up, and when you release it, Captain Toad gets off his back and onto his feet, ready for battle once again.

 

[ChikoLad]

It's just a name for the moveset, of course Captain Toad would be scared half of the time like he is in Treasure Tracker.
Whether Captain Toad builds a Turnip Turret or it poofs into battle, it's the same move neverthenless.
I just thought building his contraptions (since he can't exactly fight by himself) is a better way to let Captain Toad use them then just magically poof them in.

The big picture here is creating a moveset that allows Captain Toad overcome his clear weaknesses by having lively contraptions helping him, not making him a Bob the Builder.
Building them was just an easy and clear way to let these contraptions enter the battlefield.

If you're that dead set on not having him any building skills at all, let them come out of his backpack.
That he just shakes his bag in the hope there's something good in it and then let him summon him the things he need without him even knowing it and let the Captain work from there.

The literal meaning of the word "engineer" is someone who builds contraptions and structures using scientific and mathematical knowledge. So Captain Toad building contraptions would literally be making him an engineer.

Maybe you guys need to just use a different word.

I think there is nothing wrong with having them poof out of nowhere, because well, that happens a lot in Marioverse games anyway, including Captain Toad. I think having things get shaken out of his bag is fine. I never specified how things should look like an accident, just that most things should look like an accident or that he got lucky.

Captain Toad isn't one to build platforms and the like to help him out, but that doesn't prevent the player from doing that for him, just like, again, the Gamepad in 3D World and Treasure Tracker.

That's a better way of putting it, rather than that he's an engineer. Just call him a "fourth wall breaker" I guess, since the player is directly aiding him.

I would still say that not all of his moves have to involve some sort of contraption though, and I think the secret jetpack for jumps would be the best way to handle his first and second jump, though. The Super Pickaxe could also be used for some basic attacks, or even as a rapid jab.

 

[Munomario777]

The literal meaning of the word "engineer" is someone who builds contraptions and structures using scientific and mathematical knowledge. So Captain Toad building contraptions would literally be making him an engineer.

Maybe you guys need to just use a different word.

I'm mainly using the word "engineer" as referring to Captain Toad's gameplay style, or perhaps a better way to put it would be that the player is acting as an engineer; they're creating things like platforms, cannons, and such for Captain Toad to use. Captain Toad himself isn't doing a thing; he's just letting things happen and rolling with them. Captain Toad isn't an engineer, but his moveset resembles one from a gameplay perspective.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The literal meaning of the word "engineer" is someone who builds contraptions and structures using scientific and mathematical knowledge. So Captain Toad building contraptions would literally be making him an engineer.

Maybe you guys need to just use a different word.

I think there is nothing wrong with having them poof out of nowhere, because well, that happens a lot in Marioverse games anyway, including Captain Toad. I think having things get shaken out of his bag is fine. I never specified how things should look like an accident, just that most things should look like an accident or that he got lucky.



That's a better way of putting it, rather than that he's an engineer. Just call him a "fourth wall breaker" I guess, since the player is directly aiding him.

I would still say that not all of his moves have to involve some sort of contraption though, and I think the secret jetpack for jumps would be the best way to handle his first and second jump, though. The Super Pickaxe could also be used for some basic attacks, or even as a rapid jab.

It's the trope's name, but we could use "Summoner" in this case, but that still doesn't scream "Contraptions" to me.

This wouldn't do much good, though. Remember, Captain Toad has horrible air mobility. He can barely move left and right. A bouncy platform or one that takes him high up wouldn't be much good for his horizontal recovery, whereas a propeller platform that he can influence to move sideways would.

The big one in 3D World moves sideways and the small ones bend over as of doing the half moon pose

My point exactly.

Yes, it's unique from an aesthetic standpoint, but I'm talking about from a gameplay perspective. Captain Toad would be the only one to fight "accidentally", sure, but that doesn't really mean much aside from aesthetics and animations. Bowser Jr. isn't an engineer in the sense that I'm referring to; he doesn't build things to help him in battle. That's what I'm referring to. It's like how Rosalina is called a "puppet character", but Luma isn't a puppet; it's an actual living thing. The same sort of thing applies to Captain Toad; he'd play like an "engineer", with structures and such being part of his moveset, but he's not actually building them; they're just appearing. He doesn't have to be actually "building" the things for him to play like this; as I said earlier, he could just happen to be where a mushroom grows out of the ground, or a platform could just "poof" underneath him. It's like the cannon idea you had, but they stick around for a longer period of time.

I see Captain Toad as:
Aesthetically, he's an "accidental" fighter. He doesn't make things happen; they happen, and he rolls with it. (And he attacks sometimes too of course.) He's walking along, and a mushroom platform pops up out of the ground, carrying him up into the skies. He decides to use this to, say, drop things down onto the opponents below him. That sort of thing.

Mechanically, he's an "engineer" fighter. The player uses constructs to aid Captain Toad and to use for positioning, spacing, and more, somewhat like the Gamepad's function in his games. Sure, Captain Toad himself doesn't make that mushroom platform appear, but the player does. You can use this for strategy, tactics, and the like while still maintaining Captain Toad's personality and character. Captain Toad isn't one to build platforms and the like to help him out, but that doesn't prevent the player from doing that for him, just like, again, the Gamepad in 3D World and Treasure Tracker.

That's an option, but I think we could also use the "glove" that appears when you use the Gamepad in 3D World and Treasure Tracker. Captain Toad's walking along, and then the glove appears and pulls up a mushroom platform out of the ground, with Captain Toad along for the ride. The longer you hold the button, the longer the glove pulls it up, and when you release it, Captain Toad gets off his back and onto his feet, ready for battle once again.

So like Duck Hunt Dog's third party fire?
I love it.

 

[ChikoLad]

I know, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be the entire moveset, half of it at most really. Because a playstyle entirely about that wouldn't work out too well, as it would end up a gimmick and not much else. I think it should be a mix of iconic tools like the Super Pickaxe and even swinging his backpack into people by accident, and then just have a few moves involving making things like minecarts and Clear Pipe Cannons appear. Maybe just have his specials focus around bigger objects appearing courtesy of the player, and then have his normals involve smaller objects he has on hand, like the Super Pickaxe, Diamonds, etc.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I know, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be the entire moveset, half of it at most really. Because a playstyle entirely about that wouldn't work out too well, as it would end up a gimmick and not much else. I think it should be a mix of iconic tools like the Super Pickaxe and even swinging his backpack into people by accident, and then just have a few moves involving making things like minecarts and Clear Pipe Cannons appear. Maybe just have his specials focus around bigger objects appearing courtesy of the player, and then have his normals involve smaller objects he has on hand, like the Super Pickaxe, Diamonds, etc.

We haven't even touched normals yet, so we can definitely make many accidental moves.

 

[Munomario777]

It's the trope's name, but we could use "Summoner" in this case, but that still doesn't scream "Contraptions" to me.

Well, mushroom platforms don't really scream "contraptions" to me either.

The big one in 3D World moves sideways and the small ones bend over as of doing the half moon pose

Yes, but there are a couple of gripes I have with this. For one, it doesn't make much sense for a mushroom platform to move in midair. It happens in 3D World, but that doesn't make it make any more sense. A propeller platform, on the other hand, would logically move up, and tilting it would naturally make it move sideways (this can be accomplished by moving to either side of the platform). Also, if it were to move sideways, again, Captain Toad's air speed (or lack thereof) would prove problematic. Either the platform is too fast, or it's too slow (making him extremely gimpable).

So like Duck Hunt Dog's third party fire?
I love it.

Yeah, pretty much.

I know, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be the entire moveset, half of it at most really. Because a playstyle entirely about that wouldn't work out too well, as it would end up a gimmick and not much else. I think it should be a mix of iconic tools like the Super Pickaxe and even swinging his backpack into people by accident, and then just have a few moves involving making things like minecarts and Clear Pipe Cannons appear. Maybe just have his specials focus around bigger objects appearing courtesy of the player, and then have his normals involve smaller objects he has on hand, like the Super Pickaxe, Diamonds, etc.

Right, that's what I had in mind. Three specials for making things appear and one for destroying them, and then the rest of his moveset is more standard stuff, but it still plays off of and ties into the things that can appear. For instance, a move that involves him accidentally dropping, say, a Super Gem off of a ledge (like Villager's bowling ball), which plays into his mushroom platforms since he can get up high and hit opponents from below. That sorta thing. A playstyle based around making things would work very well, but the moveset wouldn't be all about making things. Rather, it'd be about using those things to their fullest potential.

I'm wondering if his grab could involve the hand grabbing people, and then Captain Toad is free to do whatever he wants, whether it be stuffing them into a cannon, or stuffing them into his backpack.

Oh, and his down smash just has to be the easter egg that happens when you spin around in Treasure Tracker.[/quote]

 

[ChikoLad]

My idea for his normals is that he would always have the Super Pickaxe on hand, but it has a mind of it's own (making him look shocked by most attacks), and other items are incorporated at points. His basic jab combo I would imagine being left to right swings, which goes into the actual Super Pickaxe animation from the game for a rapid jab that can attack from both sides. The finisher for the rapid jab could be the Pickaxe spinning around, and it would be one of the strongest jab finishers in the game, up there with Ike and Rosalina's, actually working as a KO move not far after say, 120% against most characters from around the edge of Final Destination.

For his F-Tilt, a Diamond could quickly hop out of his bag, and the Super Pickaxe would make the Captain swing at it, like it's a baseball, serving as a mid range, arced, moderately strong projectile damage wise, though it isn't exactly a KO move or anything. However, you can actually cancel the swing by continuously mashing the A button (represented by the Captain successfully resisting the Pickaxe). When the Diamond hits the ground, it can be picked up by both you and your opponents as an item projectile. However, it's knock back is actually stronger when thrown and flies straight, so it has it's advantages when you cancel the swing. It shatters whenever it registers a hit.

For his Up Tilt, I actually think it would be pretty funny if a Pirahna Plant just grew out of his bag, and retracts back in. I dunno, I think it would look hilarious, while also being a move with good vertical range. It's a random idea, but I think it'd look funny. It also seems like a very Sakurai thing to do - just a random addition to the moveset that doesn't really make sense.

For his Down-Tilt, a Brick Block could pop up out of his bag, and land behind him (the animation does not interrupt the Captain's ability to move). However, he can whack it with the Super Pickaxe at any time after it lands, with the cluster of debris damaging opponents. However, his opponents can use it against him too, as they can pick it up like a crate item and throw it at him (though it wouldn't cause a lasting hitbox with debris, it would just shatter on him and damage him). Obviously much less reliable than how the Captain could use it, but I like the idea of "if he isn't careful, his attacks can accidentally hurt him back!". I think his D-air could be similar, except the brick shatters by itself if it lands on any opponents on it's way down.

Those are just a few ideas of the kinda things I want to see him do.

 

[Munomario777]

My idea for his normals is that he would always have the Super Pickaxe on hand, but it has a mind of it's own (making him look shocked by most attacks), and other items are incorporated at points. His basic jab combo I would imagine being left to right swings, which goes into the actual Super Pickaxe animation from the game for a rapid jab that can attack from both sides. The finisher for the rapid jab could be the Pickaxe spinning around, and it would be one of the strongest jab finishers in the game, up there with Ike and Rosalina's, actually working as a KO move not far after say, 120% against most characters from around the edge of Final Destination.

For his F-Tilt, a Diamond could quickly hop out of his bag, and the Super Pickaxe would make the Captain swing at it, like it's a baseball, serving as a mid range, arced, moderately strong projectile damage wise, though it isn't exactly a KO move or anything. However, you can actually cancel the swing by continuously mashing the A button (represented by the Captain successfully resisting the Pickaxe). When the Diamond hits the ground, it can be picked up by both you and your opponents as an item projectile. However, it's knock back is actually stronger when thrown and flies straight, so it has it's advantages when you cancel the swing. It shatters whenever it registers a hit.

For his Up Tilt, I actually think it would be pretty funny if a Pirahna Plant just grew out of his bag, and retracts back in. I dunno, I think it would look hilarious, while also being a move with good vertical range. It's a random idea, but I think it'd look funny. It also seems like a very Sakurai thing to do - just a random addition to the moveset that doesn't really make sense.

For his Down-Tilt, a Brick Block could pop up out of his bag, and land behind him (the animation does not interrupt the Captain's ability to move). However, he can whack it with the Super Pickaxe at any time after it lands, with the cluster of debris damaging opponents. However, his opponents can use it against him too, as they can pick it up like a crate item and throw it at him (though it wouldn't cause a lasting hitbox with debris, it would just shatter on him and damage him). Obviously much less reliable than how the Captain could use it, but I like the idea of "if he isn't careful, his attacks can accidentally hurt him back!". I think his D-air could be similar, except the brick shatters by itself if it lands on any opponents on it's way down.

Those are just a few ideas of the kinda things I want to see him do.

Haha, that would explain the eyes. I like these ideas, and I could see them playing well into the Captain's specials. For instance, facing away from the edge of a mushroom platform and using the down tilt could make it fall off the edge and hit opponents below, cancelling the forward tilt could have a similar effect, and stuff like that. I imagined the jab being the rapid coin pluck from his games, and the pickaxe being the Neutral Special, and that being the move to interact with moves like you described, destroy structures, etc, but there's multiple ways you could do it.

Man, I can't wait to get crackin' (or should I say trackin'? ) on this moveset!

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Fiiiiine, propellor platform it is.
But then the grounded version is a propellor platform too.
It would rise when the Captain jumps.

 

[Munomario777]

Fiiiiine, propellor platform it is.

We could have both; like I said, smash input for the bouncy pad, and regular input for the propeller platform.

But then the grounded version is a propellor platform too.
It would rise when the Captain jumps.

No, the grounded version would be the mushroom platforms (with the climbable stalks). You could achieve a similar effect by bouncing off of a bounce pad and then using up special to make a propeller platform, though.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

We could have both; like I said, smash input for the bouncy pad, and regular input for the propeller platform.

But then the grounded version is a propellor platform too.
It would rise when the Captain jumps.[/quote]
No, the grounded version would be the mushroom platforms (with the climbable stalks). You could achieve a similar effect by bouncing off of a bounce pad and then using up special to make a propeller platform, though.[/quote]

Okay, so what if the Up Smash involves a mushroom platform quickly growing out of the ground, with Capt. Toad being able to climb the stalk afterwards?

Then the Up Special doesn't have to change drastically with each input and location.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd still prefer the Cannon Clear Pipe for an Up B. I'd imagine dropping a brick from it would be possible since the move wouldn't require interrupting the Captain's animation.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'd still prefer the Cannon Clear Pipe for an Up B. I'd imagine dropping a brick from it would be possible since the move wouldn't require interrupting the Captain's animation.

But you need to remember it would not only be Captain Toad's recovery, but air mobility in general.
With his jumps being very small (with @ Munomario777 even suggesting non-existent), his Up B needs to bring him a jump.
Hence the idea for a propellor platform that lifts him up.

But we could use just the Clear Pipe as a recovery, giving Captain Toad easy access to the air, even from the ground.

 

[Pacack]

My concept of Captain Toad is essentially a slow stage controller that fights best from a distance. He would thrive off of being given time to set up his tools that would put his enemies in awkward positions and which would allow him to attack from afar and would keep his opponents far away from him.

He would have the slowest walk in the game and one of the slower running speeds in the game, and would have an air game that rivals Little Mac's save for the recovery moves. I'm thinking one jump that goes next to nowhere and horrible aerial mobility, but a good up-b and a decent, but highly situational neutral or side b.

Here's the framework for my own interpretation of him.

Properties:
Weight: 112 (Heavier than Samus, Lighter than Ganondorf and Charizard)
Jumps: 1
Dashing Speed: 1.4 (Just under Peach, just over Link. However, he has noticeable lag after his dash ends.)
Walking Speed: .675 (Slowest in the game, under Jigglypuff.)
Archetype: Slow and Strong Stage Controller

Neutral B: Mystery Block/Warp Block (Either Works)

This move allows Captain Toad to pull a Mystery Block out of his backpack and over his head like a turnip. If a character jumps on the block, then they will stand on it like it is a platform, and if a projectile hits it, it will be canceled out.

By pressing A or B, he will place it down where he is standing, or by pressing a directional input and A or B simultaneously, he will throw it in that direction a small distance ahead of him.

This move can be used to summon up to two Mystery Blocks that can be used in conjunction as warp points for Captain Toad to use to travel from one point to another quickly (there is an animation, so it's not instantaneous) as a tool to offset his slow grounded mobility. Opponents cannot break the blocks, nor can they interact with them to warp, but they can slide them along their platform by attacking them, which Captain Toad may also do. The blocks can be knocked off of edges. Opponents cannot run through the blocks, so they have the added benefit of forcing an opponent into a predictable position, similar to Pac-Man's trampoline.

Up B: Propeller Platform (If anyone knows the official name, I would love to know it.)

This move is Captain Toad's only effective recovery. It rises about as high as Fox's Fire Fox and then steadily descends if there is no ground under it. It rises mostly vertical, but it can be altered very slightly left or right. As it is rising, it has a massive windbox underneath of it, but it has no hitbox except for on the propeller itself, which does 3% and minor knockback (the wind does the rest). Once Captain Toad jumps off of it or is knocked off of it and 4 seconds have passed, the platform disappears in a puff of smoke and cannot be used again until he has touched ground or the ledge.

When on the stage, the platform initially rises much less (about the height of Mario's Super Jump Punch) and stabilizes at about 2.25 Toad heights and acts as a permanent platform until removed by Captain Toad. This is a massive part of Captain Toad's stage control game, as it prevents overhead approaches and allows Captain Toad to sit back and attack from a distance.

Only one of these may be summoned at a time, and Captain Toad cannot summon another platform onstage once he's used one for recovery until the previous one has disappeared.

When any character is on the platform, it lowers slightly, relative to that character's weight. The maximum it will ever lower is .5 Toads, however, so this won't affect Captain Toad himself much.

Down B: Turnip Pluck

Exactly what it sounds like; this would be Captain Toad's main form of attack from afar, and would be infinitely more consistent than Peach's version. The good Captain would pluck the turnip out of the ground and hold it over his head like in his game, and would have to press a button to throw it one of two arcs, weak or strong, depending on whether the throw is smashed or not. Exploding on impact like in Treasure Tracker, the Turnips would do 10.5% damage on each hit.

The turnips would be thrown in a trajectory that goes between well-placed Mystery Blocks and Propeller Platforms, making it difficult for opponents to approach while the turnips are being thrown.

Side B: Pickaxe

An absolute necessity for our hero, the Pickaxe is both a tool and a weapon.

The pickaxe is used to destroy any items on the field of the Captain so that he can use them again. When there are two Mystery Blocks on the stage or when a platform needs to be moved, the pickaxe has to be used to use those moves again. Only one hit is needed to destroy the blocks or the Propeller Platform from below, while two are needed to destroy the platform from above.

When used on an opponent, the pickaxe is one of Captain Toad's most effective killing moves, dealing 15% before staling and launching opponents at a very low horizontal trajectory that has a good chance at KOing at high percentages. If used on shields, it does shield damage about equal to Yoshi's Down B, and can break shields when used in conjunction with almost anything else the Captain uses. However, the move has notable startup lag, and must be used smartly.

Down Smash: Spin Attack

Similar to his Spin Attack in Treasure Tracker, Captain Toad spins quickly and hits opponents with his backpack, knocking them back a significant amount. This is a "get off me" move that doesn't do a lot of damage (~8.5%), but which is essential for the Captain's stage game, since he needs to keep his opponents away while he sets up the stage, or he risks being combo'd off the stage and to his death.


Eventually, I may build off of this, but this is the essential foundation of the moveset.

 

[Munomario777]

Okay, so what if the Up Smash involves a mushroom platform quickly growing out of the ground, with Capt. Toad being able to climb the stalk afterwards?

Then he has a tacky gimmick on his up smash and loses a potential anti air option.

Then the Up Special doesn't have to change drastically with each input and location.

I don't see how a platform rising up from the ground is "drastically" different from a platform that rises up in the air.

On the subject of @ Pacack 's moveset:

I don't really like the idea of Captain Toad warping around the stage like that. It'd be a pain to deal with when fighting him for one thing. He also doesn't strike me as someone who'd be teleporting around the stage in the first place. He's an adventurer; he journeys the world and goes on long treks; he'd never take the easy way out and just teleport. By the way, his recovery seems like it'd be ridiculously powerful since he could just up special, place a block, and teleport back to the stage. If you're going to do that, at least let opponents break the boxes. Also, minor thing; why isn't A the place button and B to throw (or vice versa)?

Up Special seems... off. The aerial version seems fine to me (although it could do with some sort of steering, and I don't see the necessity of the descending part, but whatever). The grounded version, on the other hand, seems like it's not at all suited for use on the ground. You say he has terrible jumps, so how is he supposed to get back onto the platform? If you're going to make the platforms permanent (and necessary for both on and off stage play), at least make them disappear when you create another one instead of having to break them. It's like Captain Toad is handicapped after recovering for no logical reason.

Down Special is fine for what it is, but it feels too similar to Peach, and would honestly be better off as a smash attack and having a new down special that actually plays into the theme you talked about at the beginning. It gets opponents away, sure, but I don't see much of a reason to honestly. You can create a platform, which takes barely any time at all, and you can place a box, which takes barely any time at all. Captain a Toad seems like he'd be just fine without ever touching this move.

Side Special is basically what I suggested but on a different input, so yeah.

Down Smash is a great reference (which I also included in my original moveset IIRC), but like Down Special, it feels like it's not as necessary as you say it is.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh; just the Make Your Move standards showing through I guess.

 

[ChikoLad]

But you need to remember it would not only be Captain Toad's recovery, but air mobility in general.
With his jumps being very small (with @ Munomario777 even suggesting non-existent), his Up B needs to bring him a jump.
Hence the idea for a propellor platform that lifts him up.

But we could use just the Clear Pipe as a recovery, giving Captain Toad easy access to the air, even from the ground.

I don't agree with that, since I already have my jetpack idea in mind. He would have poor aerial mobility in terms of left to right movement, but his jump height would be OK due to the jet propulsion installed under his backpack (No higher than Dr. Mario). However, the Cannon Clear Pipe would give him a recovery option similar to Rosalina's. Not as potent in terms of distance, but it would give him momentum he normally doesn't have, and he could still use the idea I have for D-air. And he would be invincible during the start up.

Let me just say this now - Captain Toad has to have some way of jumping in Smash. No gimmicky "he slowly builds up height with propellors" or anything like that. He will be terrible if he can't jump AT ALL. The only reason Captain Toad doesn't jump in 3D World and his game is for the purpose of the game's unique gameplay concept. In game, the give the explanation of "his bag is too heavy", but that actually contradicts Galaxy 2, in which Captain Toad scales a mountain Mario needed the Cloud Mushroom to scale.

Smash, however, REQUIRES a quick way of gaining a bit of height for EVERY character. How do you expect Captain Toad to deal with fast characters like Sheik, or even a character like Rosalina and her Luma, if he can be easily ambushed and not jump out of the way? He at least needs that option, it's a basic function every character has in the game. Being able to spawn propellor platforms will not help him against virtually lagless aerials Sheik, or how about Rosalina's infamous U-air and just Luma in general too? And how would he deal with Master Fortress and Smash Run if he can't jump on a dime, and can't make use of the "Jump" power-up?

I'm all for a creative moveset. That shouldn't require removing basic options universal to the cast, though. And you have to take into account how his moveset would do against other characters. No point making him unique and creative if it makes him one of the least viable characters in the game, and then nobody uses him.

That's why I suggest a jet propulsion system built into his backpack - in the past, the reason he couldn't jump was that his backpack was too heavy. So make the backpack the reason he CAN jump in Smash. It's a cool little bit of irony, and it fixes a problem that many detractors throw against the Captain, and can be a nod to the Toad Brigade and the Lumas of Lubba's crew in that the trophy could explain they built it for him.

Sakurai is willing to add a bit of original flair as long as it fits the character's existing themes. ZSS had a problem off stage in Brawl and had overly weak attacks, so they gave her jet boots this time because she works for the Federation who already provide her with gadgets, which logically fixes both of those problems. Rosalina's normals are pretty much stuff she never did before, but we already knew she could pretty much do anything and pull powers out of nowhere in past games, so they just gave her cosmic powered dolphin tricks. Dolphins are beautiful and elegant, Rosalina is beautiful and elegant, so it works (and it also ended up working out even more since Rosalina's element in Puzzles & Dragons is Water).

 

[Pacack]

On the subject of @ Pacack 's moveset:

I don't really like the idea of Captain Toad warping around the stage like that. It'd be a pain to deal with when fighting him for one thing. He also doesn't strike me as someone who'd be teleporting around the stage in the first place. He's an adventurer; he journeys the world and goes on long treks; he'd never take the easy way out and just teleport. By the way, his recovery seems like it'd be ridiculously powerful since he could just up special, place a block, and teleport back to the stage. If you're going to do that, at least let opponents break the boxes. Also, minor thing; why isn't A the place button and B to throw (or vice versa)?

Up Special seems... off. The aerial version seems fine to me (although it could do with some sort of steering, and I don't see the necessity of the descending part, but whatever). The grounded version, on the other hand, seems like it's not at all suited for use on the ground. You say he has terrible jumps, so how is he supposed to get back onto the platform? If you're going to make the platforms permanent (and necessary for both on and off stage play), at least make them disappear when you create another one instead of having to break them. It's like Captain Toad is handicapped after recovering for no logical reason.

The warping isn't against his character. He actually does it in Treasure Tracker.

I should've clarified that the blocks can be knocked away while airborne as well, so opponents can easily just knock a thrown block back onto the platform/off the edge as the platform is descending, then go and knock him off the platform to his doom.

Though, thinking about it, they should be able to knock it off of the stage as to avoid keeping one block on the stage at any given time. That would make it more balanced. I'll change that.

The descending part is necessary because the platform should only be viable for Toad to camp on if it's on the stage. If he's off the stage at all, then he should be in a disadvantageous position because of his nature.

The grounded version is a more legitimate complaint. First off, the point of the platform is not to provide another vantage point; it's to provide aerial cover. Toad in my mind is an intrinsically defensive character, and the platform's properties force you to respect that playstyle. If you want to use it as a way to throw farther, then you stay on it in the first place. But you're not supposed to keep doing that, because Toad isn't meant to stay on the offensive for long periods of time.

I was fully aware of the handicapping of Toad after he recovered. The idea was that he would have to play a runaway game once he got back to the stage until the platform was gone by using his other tools (ergo the "get off me" down smash being highlighted in the first place.) Once he gets back, the opponent has stage control, and Toad has to respect that for a solid 10 seconds until he can respawn his platform.

Note that the platform is destroyed from underneath via the propeller and not from above the majority of the time.

Down Special is fine for what it is, but it feels too similar to Peach, and would honestly be better off as a smash attack and having a new down special that actually plays into the theme you talked about at the beginning. It gets opponents away, sure, but I don't see much of a reason to honestly. You can create a platform, which takes barely any time at all, and you can place a box, which takes barely any time at all. Captain a Toad seems like he'd be just fine without ever touching this move.

The necessity of Down Special which you somehow completely overlooked is damage. Neither of Toad's other options do any damage, which the Turnips are necessary for. They're spammable and are needed to do damage from afar.

I don't really care if they're similar to Peach's. They're completely different in execution, and they're integral to Captain Toad's character.

Side Special is basically what I suggested but on a different input, so yeah.

If it makes you feel better, I don't really care whether Down and Side Special are switched too much, but I kept the pickaxe as side because it'll be used in the air, while the turnips won't.

Down Smash is a great reference (which I also included in my original moveset IIRC), but like Down Special, it feels like it's not as necessary as you say it is.

See above note about when opponent has stage control.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh; just the Make Your Move standards showing through I guess.

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my reply. I thought out all of my moves very thoroughly and I knew exactly why I did everything you asked, even if I wasn't completely clear at first.

While I am open to criticism, I would like to be treated with respect. Do not assume that I have the intellectual capacity of a child simply because I have never involved myself in Make Your Move before. I'm still an active member of the competitive community and I know enough about competitive game design to not be completely clueless.

 

[Munomario777]

I think the best way to handle it would be to give him a decent grounded jump with his jet(back)pack, but no midair jump. This would both make him viable in Smash and faithful to his original game. He can jump to dodge attacks, but he lacks an ability that everyone else has. In 3D World (and Treasure Tracker) it was jumping at all, and in Smash it's jumping in midair.

The warping isn't against his character. He actually does it in Treasure Tracker.

Only when he needs to, like when he's at the end of a tunnel or pathway. In Smash, there most certainly is a path available. Regardless of whether or not it actually happens in his game, that doesn't make it any less out of character. Sonic once turned into a slow, clunky werewolf monster thing in his games (he spent the better part of Sonic Unleashed in this form), but does he use it in Smash? No, because the Werehog form is slow, and Sonic is about speed.

I should've clarified that the blocks can be knocked away while airborne as well, so opponents can easily just knock a thrown block back onto the platform/off the edge as the platform is descending, then go and knock him off the platform to his doom.

Though, thinking about it, they should be able to knock it off of the stage as to avoid keeping one block on the stage at any given time. That would make it more balanced. I'll change that.

Yes, that would be much better. (Although the whole out of character deal still applies.)

The descending part is necessary because the platform should only be viable for Toad to camp on if it's on the stage. If he's off the stage at all, then he should be in a disadvantageous position because of his nature.

Then why not just make it disappear? If you're going to limit it to one platform at a time, don't have the one you're done using just float downwards uselessly and make you wait for it to despawn.

The grounded version is a more legitimate complaint. First off, the point of the platform is not to provide another vantage point; it's to provide aerial cover. Toad in my mind is an intrinsically defensive character, and the platform's properties force you to respect that playstyle. If you want to use it as a way to throw farther, then you stay on it in the first place. But you're not supposed to keep doing that, because Toad isn't meant to stay on the offensive for long periods of time.

I see. Still, I think it'd be better if Toad could easily get to the top if he wanted to. After all, that'd make him an anti air machine, what with using smashes at an elevation and all. It'd be a unique attribute as far as Smash goes, to say the least.

I was fully aware of the handicapping of Toad after he recovered. The idea was that he would have to play a runaway game once he got back to the stage until the platform was gone by using his other tools (ergo the "get off me" down smash being highlighted in the first place.) Once he gets back, the opponent has stage control, and Toad has to respect that for a solid 10 seconds until he can respawn his platform.

It seems unnecessary to limit him like that, though. If Captain Toad is all about defense and stage control, and he can't defend himself or control the stage for ten whole seconds after he gets back on the stage, then you can bet he'll get knocked off the ledge again, and the cycle will keep repeating and Captain Toad is practically helpless. It's like removing Rosalina's Luma once she gets back onto the stage. Not to mention the fact that he won't be able to recover at all if his other platform is still falling.

Note that the platform is destroyed from underneath via the propeller and not from above the majority of the time.

Hm?

The necessity of Down Special which you somehow completely overlooked is damage. Neither of Toad's other options do any damage, which the Turnips are necessary for. They're spammable and are needed to do damage from afar.

Do his standards not deal damage? I don't see them as being very spammable; if you have to pluck a turnip and then throw it every time, that's a pretty big window for the opponent to come in and hit you.

If it makes you feel better, I don't really care whether Down and Side Special are switched too much, but I kept the pickaxe as side because it'll be used in the air, while the turnips won't.

Oh, I was just saying that I agreed with that move and its applications (since I was also on the same page).

While I am open to criticism, I would like to be treated with respect. Do not assume that I have the intellectual capacity of a child simply because I have never involved myself in Make Your Move before. I'm still an active member of the competitive community and I know enough about competitive game design to not be completely clueless.

All right, all right, geez. I wasn't saying that you had "the intellectual capacity of a child". Sorry if it came across that way. In fact, I'd say you're better at making a cohesive flow and playstyle than quite a few newcomers to the contest (including myself when I started off, to be quite honest; my earlier sets tended to be just a hodgepodge of references with no real connections). I'm not very knowledgeable about competitive play and the like, so there ya go.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don't agree with that, since I already have my jetpack idea in mind. He would have poor aerial mobility in terms of left to right movement, but his jump height would be OK due to the jet propulsion installed under his backpack (No higher than Dr. Mario). However, the Cannon Clear Pipe would give him a recovery option similar to Rosalina's. Not as potent in terms of distance, but it would give him momentum he normally doesn't have, and he could still use the idea I have for D-air. And he would be invincible during the start up.

Let me just say this now - Captain Toad has to have some way of jumping in Smash. No gimmicky "he slowly builds up height with propellors" or anything like that. He will be terrible if he can't jump AT ALL. The only reason Captain Toad doesn't jump in 3D World and his game is for the purpose of the game's unique gameplay concept. In game, the give the explanation of "his bag is too heavy", but that actually contradicts Galaxy 2, in which Captain Toad scales a mountain Mario needed the Cloud Mushroom to scale.

Smash, however, REQUIRES a quick way of gaining a bit of height for EVERY character. How do you expect Captain Toad to deal with fast characters like Sheik, or even a character like Rosalina and her Luma, if he can be easily ambushed and not jump out of the way? He at least needs that option, it's a basic function every character has in the game. Being able to spawn propellor platforms will not help him against virtually lagless aerials Sheik, or how about Rosalina's infamous U-air and just Luma in general too? And how would he deal with Master Fortress and Smash Run if he can't jump on a dime, and can't make use of the "Jump" power-up?

I'm all for a creative moveset. That shouldn't require removing basic options universal to the cast, though. And you have to take into account how his moveset would do against other characters. No point making him unique and creative if it makes him one of the least viable characters in the game, and then nobody uses him.

That's why I suggest a jet propulsion system built into his backpack - in the past, the reason he couldn't jump was that his backpack was too heavy. So make the backpack the reason he CAN jump in Smash. It's a cool little bit of irony, and it fixes a problem that many detractors throw against the Captain, and can be a nod to the Toad Brigade and the Lumas of Lubba's crew in that the trophy could explain they built it for him.

Sakurai is willing to add a bit of original flair as long as it fits the character's existing themes. ZSS had a problem off stage in Brawl and had overly weak attacks, so they gave her jet boots this time because she works for the Federation who already provide her with gadgets, which logically fixes both of those problems. Rosalina's normals are pretty much stuff she never did before, but we already knew she could pretty much do anything and pull powers out of nowhere in past games, so they just gave her cosmic powered dolphin tricks. Dolphins are beautiful and elegant, Rosalina is beautiful and elegant, so it works (and it also ended up working out even more since Rosalina's element in Puzzles & Dragons is Water).

I actually want small jumps, as I said, the no-jump-idea is MunoMario's not mine.

Then he has a tacky gimmick on his up smash and loses a potential anti air option.

I don't see how a platform rising up from the ground is "drastically" different from a platform that rises up in the air.

On the subject of @ Pacack 's moveset:

I don't really like the idea of Captain Toad warping around the stage like that. It'd be a pain to deal with when fighting him for one thing. He also doesn't strike me as someone who'd be teleporting around the stage in the first place. He's an adventurer; he journeys the world and goes on long treks; he'd never take the easy way out and just teleport. By the way, his recovery seems like it'd be ridiculously powerful since he could just up special, place a block, and teleport back to the stage. If you're going to do that, at least let opponents break the boxes. Also, minor thing; why isn't A the place button and B to throw (or vice versa)?

Up Special seems... off. The aerial version seems fine to me (although it could do with some sort of steering, and I don't see the necessity of the descending part, but whatever). The grounded version, on the other hand, seems like it's not at all suited for use on the ground. You say he has terrible jumps, so how is he supposed to get back onto the platform? If you're going to make the platforms permanent (and necessary for both on and off stage play), at least make them disappear when you create another one instead of having to break them. It's like Captain Toad is handicapped after recovering for no logical reason.

Down Special is fine for what it is, but it feels too similar to Peach, and would honestly be better off as a smash attack and having a new down special that actually plays into the theme you talked about at the beginning. It gets opponents away, sure, but I don't see much of a reason to honestly. You can create a platform, which takes barely any time at all, and you can place a box, which takes barely any time at all. Captain a Toad seems like he'd be just fine without ever touching this move.

Side Special is basically what I suggested but on a different input, so yeah.

Down Smash is a great reference (which I also included in my original moveset IIRC), but like Down Special, it feels like it's not as necessary as you say it is.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh; just the Make Your Move standards showing through I guess.

No, it would still do damage when it grows.
Toad can just climb it after the attack is done.

Btw, I really wanna join MYM but I'm not good enough I think.

 

[Pacack]

Only when he needs to, like when he's at the end of a tunnel or pathway. In Smash, there most certainly is a path available. Regardless of whether or not it actually happens in his game, that doesn't make it any less out of character. Sonic once turned into a slow, clunky werewolf monster thing in his games (he spent the better part of Sonic Unleashed in this form), but does he use it in Smash? No, because the Werehog form is slow, and Sonic is about speed.

See, I would argue that the ability to confuse and outmaneuver an opponent in the process of running away from them would highlight his intellectualism and his fearful nature. Therefore, it would not just be staying true to his nature, but would in fact be highlighting it. It's simply creative liberty in this case.

Then why not just make it disappear? If you're going to limit it to one platform at a time, don't have the one you're done using just float downwards uselessly and make you wait for it to despawn.

It seems unnecessary to limit him like that, though. If Captain Toad is all about defense and stage control, and he can't defend himself or control the stage for ten whole seconds after he gets back on the stage, then you can bet he'll get knocked off the ledge again, and the cycle will keep repeating and Captain Toad is practically helpless. It's like removing Rosalina's Luma once she gets back onto the stage. Not to mention the fact that he won't be able to recover at all if his other platform is still falling.

I see the issue; while the opponent should have a window of opportunity, it's simply too large.

Perhaps instead of having it float gradually down until it reaches the blastzone, it should float down until Toad jumps off, then despawn in a puff of smoke in 3 to 5 seconds?

I see. Still, I think it'd be better if Toad could easily get to the top if he wanted to. After all, that'd make him an anti air machine, what with using smashes at an elevation and all. It'd be a unique attribute as far as Smash goes, to say the least.

But does that contribute to his defensive, stage-controlling playstyle in a meaningful way? He can do that already, but it's an option that requires more commitment than just doing it automatically. Instead, he has to destroy it, then spawn it again.

Hm?

The ability to destroy the platform is available to Toad even when he's on the ground. I'm thinking that, when he hits the propeller, it should actually only be one hit because of the time it takes to jump, though.

Do his standards not deal damage? I don't see them as being very spammable; if you have to pluck a turnip and then throw it every time, that's a pretty big window for the opponent to come in and hit you.

If they did, it would be negligible, like 2%. The Turnip Pluck is meant to be much, much faster than Peach's, to the point of being spammable, but not to the point of being unpunishable without a wall up.

Note that other projectiles should be included among his tilts and the like. I was thinking maybe a stamp for an up or side tilt.

All right, all right, geez. I wasn't saying that you had "the intellectual capacity of a child". Sorry if it came across that way. In fact, I'd say you're better at making a cohesive flow and playstyle than quite a few newcomers to the contest (including myself when I started off, to be quite honest; my earlier sets tended to be just a hodgepodge of references with no real connections). I'm not very knowledgeable about competitive play and the like, so there ya go.

My apologies for coming across as too defensive. I appreciate the ability to talk about this intellectually.

 

[Munomario777]

No, it would still do damage when it grows.
Toad can just climb it after the attack is done.

Well, then we run into some problems. If the mushroom deals damage, then it can't be too big; that much range would be overpowered, and prevent anyone from approaching Captain Toad from the air ever. The height of the stalk would also need to be limited, since he shouldn't be able to hit too high up. So we have a tiny mushroom platform that doesn't go up very high, which severely limits its use. If it's small, there's not a lot of room to work with and not a lot of protection for the Captain, and if it's short, then he can't take advantage of the platform as much (such as using smashes high up). I just don't see the point in making his up smash a gimmicky platform creation move when there's a perfectly good up special that it could be integrated into.

See, I would argue that the ability to confuse and outmaneuver an opponent in the process of running away from them would highlight his intellectualism and his fearful nature. Therefore, it would not just be staying true to his nature, but would in fact be highlighting it. It's simply creative liberty in this case.

I don't really see Captain Toad using such misleading and complex tactics. He's a simple man; he's not particularly smart (he comes from a "puzzle" game, but many of the puzzles involve the player doing things with the gamepad), but rather, he's lucky. He doesn't know that climbing that ladder will kill the dragon; he's just trying to get away from the lava. If you really want to take advantage of his cowardly nature like that, I'd suggest using Brick Blocks or something to create cover to hide behind.

I see the issue; while the opponent should have a window of opportunity, it's simply too large.

Perhaps instead of having it float gradually down until it reaches the blastzone, it should float down until Toad jumps off, then despawn in a puff of smoke in 3 to 5 seconds?

I think it should just disappear as soon as he jumps off, or when he creates another platform.

But does that contribute to his defensive, stage-controlling playstyle in a meaningful way?

No, but it helps compensate for his terrible air game by bringing his ground game to the air.

He can do that already, but it's an option that requires more commitment than just doing it automatically. Instead, he has to destroy it, then spawn it again.

I don't think attacking in the air should be something that requires a ton of commitment. His air game is really bad as you said, so he's gonna need an easy way to attack in the air without using actual aerials.

The ability to destroy the platform is available to Toad even when he's on the ground. I'm thinking that, when he hits the propeller, it should actually only be one hit because of the time it takes to jump, though.

Why not just make it one hit all the time?

If they did, it would be negligible, like 2%.

Seriously? His attacks only deal 2% each? That's what you call underpowered. Pichu's weakest ground attack deals 6%, and its weakest attack overall (barring its recovery and pummel) deals 4%. And you're telling me that Captain Toad's attacks all deal less than that?!

Unless you mean the jab, in which case I understand. I was referring to "standards" as in "not specials."

The Turnip Pluck is meant to be much, much faster than Peach's, to the point of being spammable, but not to the point of being unpunishable without a wall up.

That's not the impression I get from his game. Either way, the predictable trajectory and telegraphed nature would still make it easy to get through.

Note that other projectiles should be included among his tilts and the like. I was thinking maybe a stamp for an up or side tilt.

Projectile tilts are Mega Man's job.

Seriously though, this seems rather out of character for Captain Toad. Not to mention the fact that you're giving a character with many spammable projectiles the ability to teleport. Once he's approached, he can simply throw one of his magic boxes forwards and teleport away from the opponent, and repeat the whole act over again.

My apologies for coming across as too defensive. I appreciate the ability to talk about this intellectually.

No worries.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

This whole page


tl:dr

 

[ChikoLad]

Most of Captain Toad's puzzles don't come from GamePad use. Saying this as someone who 100%'d the game, Pixel Toads and all.

You have the odd touchstone puzzle, valve rotating puzzle, propeller platform, and minecart section (which can actually be played with the right stick). These are merely dotted about the game, though.

 

[Munomario777]

Most of Captain Toad's puzzles don't come from GamePad use. Saying this as someone who 100%'d the game, Pixel Toads and all.

You have the odd touchstone puzzle, valve rotating puzzle, propeller platform, and minecart section (which can actually be played with the right stick). These are merely dotted about the game, though.

Oh, I'm not just talking about those. Remember, the gamepad is also what you use to rotate the camera and actually see the whole stage. Captain Toad doesn't see that Green Star in that cavern below him, but you, the player, do. It's like you're an omnipotent, omniscient being guiding Captain Toad on his adventure.

 

[ChikoLad]

Oh, I'm not just talking about those. Remember, the gamepad is also what you use to rotate the camera and actually see the whole stage. Captain Toad doesn't see that Green Star in that cavern below him, but you, the player, do. It's like you're an omnipotent, omniscient being guiding Captain Toad on his adventure.

Except you can use the TV screen and Right Stick. I never used the Gyro for the camera unless it was a rail shooter segment, where I used it for fine tuning my aim.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm going to make my own moveset and try to submit it to MYM.
Wish me luck!

Under construction:

Neutral Special:
Super Pickaxe

Captain Toad stretches it's arm backwards in its backpack and stretches them out forward again with a Pickaxe in his hands.
The Pickaxe breaks every contraption Captain Toad makes and deals 10% damage om the intial hit with high knockback
If the button is held, Captain Toad keeps swinging the Pickaxe up and down, dealing 5% damage per hit with medium knockback, still breaking any contraption.

Side Special:
Minecart

Captain Toad takes his backpack and walks while shaking it up and down.
As long as the button is held, little pieces of minecart track fall out, making the Captain surprised.
These pieces of tracks deal 2% damage with no knockback, so you could potentionally combo the opponent
When the button is released, a minecart falls out.
This minecart deals 20% damage and kills at 140%

After the minecart is dropped down, it will drive around on the track on itself at the speed of Bowser Jr. like Gogoat.
The minecart acts as a platform and can be rode.

When the Minecart hits an opponent in this state, it deals 5% and hits opponents up slightly.

Only one minecart can be up per time and the move will do nothing when used when an old Minecart is up.
The Minecart is on-stage twice as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant

The Minecart acts as a substitute for Captain Toad's low speed

Up Special:
Propellor Platform

Captain Toad curls up in a ball all scared, when suddenly a Propellor Platform rises him upwards.
Poor Captain is afraid of heights, so he's nailbiting during the whole ride.

Anyway, after the intial rise, around the height of Abadon Ship, the platform travels forward for a bit when the button is pressed again.

While the platform itself does no damage, Captain Toad can attack during the ride.

On the ground, the propellor platform doesn't drive forward after the intial, lower, rise.
Instead, it'll travel back to the intial position where the platform stays out for a while and can be made rise again by pressing UpB, repeating the cycle.

Only one propellor platform can be up at the same time and the move will do nothing when an old Platform is up.
The Platform is on-stage as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant.

Down Special:
Turnip Turret:

Captain Toad shakes its backpack up and down, creating a Turnip Turret.
The Turnip Turret shoots turnips every two seconds in spurts of three.
These turnips are shot in a straight line and deal 2% damage and deal low knockback.

Sometimes, instead of shooting a spurt of three turnips, the turret shoots one big turnip that deals 10% damage, but travels as slow as Falco's laser.

When Captain Toad is close to the turret, the turret acts more like Auto-Reticle, "homing in" on opponents.

Only one Turnip Turret can be up at the same time and the move will do nothing when a turret is already on the field.
The Turret is on-stage twice as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant.

Smashes:
Side Smash:
Captain Toad holds his bag above him up-side down and looks at it.
Too bad for the Captain, a clear pipe cannon falls out, trapping Captain Toad.
While Captain Toad holds his hands for his eyes, scared for the ride, the clear pipe cannon shoots him straight ahead.
The Captain spins around while being shot, dealing 15% damage total and kills horizontally at 150%.
Captain Toad is shot the length comparable to the lenght Mega Man's forward smash travels.

The move is nearly lagless, allowing Captain Toad to shoot himself to a location easily.
However, there's start-up lag and the attack is very weak.

Up Smash:
Captain Toad looks at a red dot on the ground, looking curious.
Just as he wants to touch it, it is revealed to be a mushroom platform and it grows giant quickly
Captain Toad curls up in a ball and after the mushroom is full-sized, Captain Toad admires it.
The top of the mushroom is a rounded square with the width of a Battlefield platform, deals 10% damage and heavy upwards knockback.
The stem of the mushroom is Ganondorf-sized, deals little damage and horizontal knockback

The sweetspot, killing at 120%, lies at the middle of the mushroomtop.

When the move is done, Captain Toad can climb on the stem to the top, revealing that the top of the mushroom is in-fact a trampoline, letting Captain Toad jump twice as high when jumping on it.

Down Smash:
Captain Toad walks around quickly, charging the smash.
When you release the move, Captain Toad gets dizzy, indicated by the swirls around his head, and spins around four times.
The backpack turns into a hitbox.

There's one strohg, intial hit when Captain Toad starts spinning, after that the move turns weaker.
After two spins, Captain Toad can walk freely while executing the other two spins before falling down on his back.

During this time, the backpack deals 5% damage and the move kills at 160%

 

[Munomario777]

Except you can use the TV screen and Right Stick.

Still, that's not Captain Toad's perspective.

I never used the Gyro for the camera unless it was a rail shooter segment, where I used it for fine tuning my aim.

You can't turn it off for camera controls though (which really bugged me, by the way).

@ WeirdChillFever

Why don't we all just work together and make a collaboration set? I've got a good format we can use; I'll see if I can write up a draft of the Captain's set in it either later today or tomorrow. I think if we all combine our best ideas, we can make a moveset that really does the good ol' Captain justice!