Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

[Tabbender]

Neat! And huh, it's a platformer, apparently? Didn't see that one coming. Pretty neat, though! Guess that means the next fighter's a ways out, which is fine by me, since AoCF is pretty great.

I don't see how that's a problem

 

[TheTuninator]

I don't see how that's a problem

What would be a problem?

 

[Tabbender]

uh... might have misquoted there.

It would still feel a little weird. Sakurai would have to pull another "Play this game on Xbox" except say "You can play her games on Steam or PC" *wink wink*

Was meant for this post

 

[Exiliify]

Not surprised seeing people in the RTC rate Reimu with low chances, yet some think the users that stated why they think Reimu is a lock at this point backed up with facts are the delusional ones.

sigh

 

[PurpleXCompleX]

Thanks y'all who participated in posting in the RTC thread.
That goes for both all the reasonable Pro-Reimu and well constructed critically Contra-Reimu posts.

 

[TheTuninator]

Not surprised seeing people in the RTC rate Reimu with low chances, yet some think the users that stated why they think Reimu is a lock at this point backed up with facts are the delusional ones.

sigh

I certainly wouldn't call Reimu anywhere close to a lock, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people have a very vague conception of just how widespread exposure to Touhou is. Anybody dismissing it as unknown in the West simply hasn't bothered to do their research, and we all know that it's more than popular enough in Japan alone to justify an inclusion. Without casting any aspersions on those characters' chances, I'd be quite comfortable in stating that Touhou is much better-known in general than many of the characters which are considered top-requested inclusions here such as Geno, Isaac, or Shantae, even if that may be primarily through memes and art.

 

[perfectchaos83]

****, I forgot about the RTC thread. Oops.

 

[Prince777]

I certainly wouldn't call Reimu anywhere close to a lock, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people have a very vague conception of just how widespread exposure to Touhou is. Anybody dismissing it as unknown in the West simply hasn't bothered to do their research, and we all know that it's more than popular enough in Japan alone to justify an inclusion. Without casting any aspersions on those characters' chances, I'd be quite comfortable in stating that Touhou is much better-known in general than many of the characters which are considered top-requested inclusions here such as Geno, Isaac, or Shantae, even if that may be primarily through memes and art.

Touhou is definitely a lot bigger than what most people would give credit for. In China, they acknowledged her presence by naming a flower after her. Meme culture is also another justification to take into account since Touhou helped establish the forefront of Japan's modern-day media and meme culture. This probably accounts for most of Asia as well.

I'd say claiming she's "anywhere close to a lock" isn't too far-fetched; if anything she likely has a spot in Ultimate as a DLC. It wouldn't surprise me if Sakurai has known about the series for decades and considered the possibility of including Touhou into his games at some point.

She has a presence in America, Europe, and elsewhere, but it just isn't at the forefront of those particular cultures. She indeed does fit the bill of being iconic--even more so than most of the characters in Smash and those requested.

 

[BlueEyedGrimmbat]

Add me to the support list! I've played Brawl in the past, and I am a big fan of Touhou. The more I read this, the more I could see our shrine maiden getting into Ultimate, until I realized I had no choice but to make an account and join the effort to get Reimu into Smash!


...That aside, which character do you think is the absolute biggest obstacle to Reimu's inclusion (not including Shantae)?

 

[TheTuninator]

Add me to the support list! I've played Brawl in the past, and I am a big fan of Touhou. The more I read this, the more I could see our shrine maiden getting into Ultimate, until I realized I had no choice but to make an account and join the effort to get Reimu into Smash!


...That aside, which character do you think is the absolute biggest obstacle to Reimu's inclusion (not including Shantae)?

I actually don't think Shantae is an obstacle in any way, if we're presuming that there's one "indie" slot and everyone has to fight over it. She may be viewed as a top request here, but worldwide, I'm quite confident that Touhou is far bigger than her series. Honestly, I would have named Undertale as the series most likely to take a hypothetical "indie slot", given its wild popularity and recency.

 

[Sysreq]

I actually don't think Shantae is an obstacle in any way, if we're presuming that there's one "indie" slot and everyone has to fight over it. She may be viewed as a top request here, but worldwide, I'm quite confident that Touhou is far bigger than her series. Honestly, I would have named Undertale as the series most likely to take a hypothetical "indie slot", given its wild popularity and recency.

As someone who has been a longtime Shantae supporter and only recently discovered that people support Reimu, I'd be fine with either. If my initial hang-ups about Reimu being a very PC-centric character turn out to not matter then that'd be great. I'm still rooting for Shantae though, especially since she fits the "traditional" origins of a Smash character a little more. My one concern is about the whole indie thing. But damn, if we do end up getting more than 5 extra characters, something's gotta give in terms of 3rd party. Lot of good indie characters.

 

[TheTuninator]

Yeah, that's the main reason I now believe Reimu is actually possible. I don't foresee any universe where she's pick #1 through 5, but if we go up to like 15 DLC characters, as seems very possible? At that point, she no longer looks so unreasonable.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Add me to the support list! I've played Brawl in the past, and I am a big fan of Touhou. The more I read this, the more I could see our shrine maiden getting into Ultimate, until I realized I had no choice but to make an account and join the effort to get Reimu into Smash!


...That aside, which character do you think is the absolute biggest obstacle to Reimu's inclusion (not including Shantae)?

Whatever obstacle, in terms of competition, she had died with the Sans Mii costume. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that I very rarely attribute a character's likeliness individually. It's very rare for me to do so simply because I think no character is likely to begin with. Instead, I opt for judging likeliness categorically. Reimu (alongside Shantae) are the two I pegged as most likely indie. IMO, if you think an indie rep is likely, then I think Reimu is really the only real option left. She pretty much checks off every box "necessary" to nab a spot.

The only real obstacle I see is if Sakurai really thinks the perceived "No western presence" is a reason to keep her out. Another thing I brought up earlier in the thread is that I do feel that Undertale's success does put a new light on that thought considering the heavy influence Touhou has on that game. At the very least it shows that the Western Touhou fanbase does in fact exist and Touhou still is influential regardless.

 

[Sysreq]

So here's a question: if Reimu did make it in, what do you think she would end up looking like? afaik there's no "definitive" Reimu model (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm curious. Especially with how Banjo and Kazooie were reimagined.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I think it might be cool for Reimu to be a 3rd approximation of ZUN art, something like this:

Spoiler: ZUN Reimu

Maybe that's a controversial opinion, but going with that over, say, AoCF portrait art helps make Reimu look less "generic anime" -like.

As for outfit... I kinda lean against the EoSD and PCB designs, since they lack shoes. IN might be the most iconic overall, although the accents on the HSiFS dress are nice. The WBaWC paw print is a little too distinctive imo, and maybe a touch too new. I also think the neck-ribbon should be yellow. And the gohei should be large, but not WBaWC large, and the ribbon shouldn't be too big either.

...come to think of it the image is almost exactly what I think Reimu should look like. hmm

The one thing I can't decide on is if Reimu's hair should be down or in a pony tail.

I also forgot how much I like the SSiB art, but that look wouldn't translate to 3d well.

Spoiler: SSiB Reimu

 

[KarneraMythos]

So here's a question: if Reimu did make it in, what do you think she would end up looking like? afaik there's no "definitive" Reimu model (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm curious. Especially with how Banjo and Kazooie were reimagined.

I think it might be cool for Reimu to be a 3rd approximation of ZUN art, something like this:

Spoiler: ZUN Reimu

Maybe that's a controversial opinion, but going with that over, say, AoCF portrait art helps make Reimu look less "generic anime" -like.

As for outfit... I kinda lean against the EoSD and PCB designs, since they lack shoes. IN might be the most iconic overall, although the accents on the HSiFS dress are nice. The WBaWC paw print is a little too distinctive imo, and maybe a touch too new. I also think the neck-ribbon should be yellow. And the gohei should be large, but not WBaWC large, and the ribbon shouldn't be too big either.

...come to think of it the image is almost exactly what I think Reimu should look like. hmm

The one thing I can't decide on is if Reimu's hair should be down or in a pony tail.

I also forgot how much I like the SSiB art, but that look wouldn't translate to 3d well.

I definitely feel like Sakurai would try to capture the official art in some manner, with some creative liberties here and there. If we go by Smash's history of character designs, you'll notice how some characters don't match their origins 100%. Reimu would probably get a slight facial makeover, just enough to make her stand out a little more and look a lot more expressive.

The official art style also makes her and other Touhou characters look a bit short and stubby in areas. If anything, my unpopular opinion (at least within the Touhou community) is to emulate her ULiL appearance somewhat.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I definitely feel like Sakurai would try to capture the official art in some manner, with some creative liberties here and there. If we go by Smash's history of character designs, you'll notice how some characters don't match their origins 100%. Reimu would probably get a slight facial makeover, just enough to make her stand out a little more and look a lot more expressive.

The official art style also makes her and other Touhou characters look a bit short and stubby in areas. If anything, my unpopular opinion (at least within the Touhou community) is to emulate her ULiL appearance somewhat.

It's definitely a solid look, I just have the most minor of gripes with the eye shape and the neck-ribbon being blue instead of yellow.

 

[Sysreq]

I definitely feel like Sakurai would try to capture the official art in some manner, with some creative liberties here and there. If we go by Smash's history of character designs, you'll notice how some characters don't match their origins 100%. Reimu would probably get a slight facial makeover, just enough to make her stand out a little more and look a lot more expressive.

The official art style also makes her and other Touhou characters look a bit short and stubby in areas. If anything, my unpopular opinion (at least within the Touhou community) is to emulate her ULiL appearance somewhat.

ZUN art cracks me up. I would 100% support Reimu having some of that ZUN "charm" maintained in her face, but, yeah, her body would need to be overhauled lol

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

ZUN art cracks me up. I would 100% support Reimu having some of that ZUN "charm" maintained in her face, but, yeah, her body would need to be overhauled lol

Can we get Hina as a spirit just for the Hina Face?

 

[perfectchaos83]

So here's a question: if Reimu did make it in, what do you think she would end up looking like? afaik there's no "definitive" Reimu model (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm curious. Especially with how Banjo and Kazooie were reimagined.

I know a lot of people would prefer a "ZUN style", But I personally don't think it will happen. His art works well in Touhou, but I'm not 100% sure how it'd be translated to 3D like Smash uses. Personally, I'd like something like this or based on the designs in ULiL/AoCF. Hair wise, I think the short hair with the ponytail is a bit more iconic for her and it's one a lot of people seem to use as a base for her.

 

[Sysreq]

Can we get Hina as a spirit just for the Hina Face?

"It's not just a theory, it's a Touhou theory!"

 

[BlueEyedGrimmbat]

Here's a thought: If Sakurai says he's "considering" a genre, psychologically it means he's going to pick a character from that genre.

Going off the posts made in response to mine, if Sakurai lets slip that he's going to consider indie games, Reimu is pretty much locked.

Just a random idea I had.

 

[TheTuninator]

ZUN art is funny, but I'd definitely want Reimu to look like she does in HM/ULiL/AoCF or any of the mangas.

 

[BlueEyedGrimmbat]

Seeing as we're approaching the 1000 post mark, and me being the 100th supporter, I figured it's time to summarize everything our shrine maiden has going for and against her.

The Good:

+ Touhou is the face of Japanese otaku culture, having spawned countless doujinshi and fanworks. That right there should put it on the same level as, if not higher, than Dragon Quest. Not to mention the cult following it's spawned in the West..."extremely popular" is an understatement for Touhou. The series, and Reimu herself, has made its way into almost every part of anime culture across the world.

+ Her competition is GONE. Quote may/may not be allowed in smash, Shantae's legacy is nothing compared to Reimu's, Shovel Knight got the Assist Trophy treatment, and most importantly, Sans is an Mii Costume.

+ Segueing off that last bit, Toby Fox, the creator of Undertale, is a big Touhou fan, and is also friends with Sakurai (I think?). There has to have been a few words or two regarding Touhou in Smash.

+ ZUN has been getting more lenient with companies. He's lent the Touhou franchise to 5 game companies so far (Sega, Bandai Namco, Square Enix,...) and has expressed a wish to cooperate with Nintendo.

+ Sakurai has expressed in interest in bringing Japanese-centric franchises to Smash. Touhou Project is a Japanese-centric franchise. You know what that means.

The Bad:

- Is Sakurai even going to focus on Indie games? If yes, well, Reimu is pretty much locked. But this is an "innocent until proven guilty" case, and until then Reimu will have to compete with big names such as Lloyd, Sora and Geno.

- There's sort of a rift between PC gaming, where Touhou dominates, and console gaming, where Smash lives. This has been bridged somewhat by Terry Bogard's inclusion and the rise of Touhou on the Nintendo eShop, but otherwise there hasn't been much interaction between the Touhou and Smash communites until now.

That's it. I DEFINITELY missed something, so I would appreciate it if you guys helped me by adding points or giving your own opinion!

 

[KarneraMythos]

+ Her competition is GONE. Quote may/may not be allowed in smash, Shantae's legacy is nothing compared to Reimu's, Shovel Knight got the Trophy treatment, and most importantly, Sans is an assist trophy.

Correction: Shovel Knight is an Assist Trophy and Sans is a Mii Costume.

+ Terry Boggart. Why? Simple: He proved that it's okay to not have any of your games on a Nintendo console. And even then, with recent attempts to get Touhou games, both official and fan-made, on the Switch, Touhou is without a doubt safe.

Pardon for coming off as rude, but it's Terry Bogard. Also, what?? Where have you been in the last 30-ish years? SNK has always been a multi-plat video game company. They have been porting their games on Nintendo consoles since the beginning. You definitely didn't do your homework here...

- Is Sakurai even going to focus on Indie games? If yes, well, Reimu is pretty much locked. But this is an "innocent until proven guilty" case, and until then Reimu will have to compete with big names such as Crash, Sora and Issac.

Remove Isaac and you're pretty much on the mark here. Isaac isn't big at all. In fact, Reimu far exceeds him in popularity. Crash is 50/50 since he's kind of a run-of-the-mill generic cerealbox character. He only brings that mascot-platformer novelty with him. He's boring otherwise. No offense to his fans.

As for Sora, the issue is on Disney, but they'd be completely foolish to not arrange a deal that's in everyone's best interest. My personal gripe with Sora is that Disney's lawyers could potentially shut down future content just for having their golden child in Smash, like they did with Marvel vs. Capcom games.

Just imagine getting Sora...only for DLC to eventually stop because he's on a contract. The trade-off isn't worth it imo, unless they prove they won't butt in on Sakura's business. He'd be cool, NGL, but it's the biggest Monkey Paw scenario we'd ever face. Bad for the long-term.

- There's sort of a rift between PC gaming, where Touhou dominates, and console gaming, where Smash lives. This has been bridged somewhat by Terry Boggart's inclusion and the rise of Touhou on the Nintendo eShop, but otherwise there hasn't been much interaction between the Touhou and Smash communites until now.

Hmmm, I wouldn't worry about her PC gaming presence at all. Her own legacy far exceeds her origins in terms of gaming platforms, so if Sakurai wants to use her to represent a long-living sub-culture and Indie icon, he'll go for all of her merits without a care about the PC business.

Really, the only thing stopping her from being playable at this point is Sakurai simply not feeling like including her as playable at all [shrug]. Some characters made it into Ultimate already because of loud, vocal support.

We also lack an outlet to communicate who we want. He already expressed great displeasure over at twitter in the past regarding Fighter requests, and without an official poll, we'll never know who Nintendo is looking for specifically.

As a KOS-MOS supporter, I'm pretty much suffering from complete radio silence on part of Bandai-Namco, the near-silent support, and the absence of anything Namco-related for DLC. Having to put up with the usual Lloyd/Heihachi talk is super disheartening, because there's nothing for us to go off of.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

+ Her competition is GONE. Quote may/may not be allowed in smash, Shantae's legacy is nothing compared to Reimu's, Shovel Knight got the Assist Trophy treatment, and most importantly, Sans is an Mii Costume.

When it comes to the other indies, I don't think Reimu ever had competition to begin with. Touhou is THE ICONIC indie franchise in Japan. The sole fact that we have indies in lesser forms of representation helps her chances immensely. People tend to forget that the DLC characters are being selected by Japanese people with their own Japanese biases. I don't think for a second that Sakurai would consider an Undertale character over Touhou, even if there was a large demand for Sans.

So here's a question: if Reimu did make it in, what do you think she would end up looking like? afaik there's no "definitive" Reimu model (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm curious. Especially with how Banjo and Kazooie were reimagined.

Reimu's design is pretty consistent, but has very subtle differences between the games. Sakurai would probably incorporate these elements to her design, like how Sheik has elements of the Sheikah armor design in BotW.

Personally, I'd take her classic EoSD design, add red hair tubes, dark shoes, color her ascot and add frills everywhere to match her modern design.
I'm also liking her looooong ribbons in 17.5

EDIT:

But seriously, what what ZUN thinking with this?

 

[TheTuninator]

But how long will her gohei be?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

But how long will her gohei be?

This long

Spoiler: *unzips gohei*

 

[Sysreq]

When it comes to the other indies, I don't think Reimu ever had competition to begin with. Touhou is THE ICONIC indie franchise in Japan. The sole fact that we have indies in lesser forms of representation helps her chances immensely. People tend to forget that the DLC characters are being selected by Japanese people with their own Japanese biases. I don't think for a second that Sakurai would consider an Undertale character over Touhou, even if there was a large demand for Sans.


Reimu's design is pretty consistent, but has very subtle differences between the games. Sakurai would probably incorporate these elements to her design, like how Sheik has elements of the Sheikah armor design in BotW.

View attachment 241640
Personally, I'd take her classic EoSD design, add red hair tubes, dark shoes, color her ascot and add frills everywhere to match her modern design.
I'm also liking her looooong ribbons in 17.5

EDIT:
View attachment 241642
But seriously, what what ZUN thinking with this?

Sexy legs.

 

[KarneraMythos]

View attachment 241656

Poe's Law tells me to lean toward the spiteful end for this one. It just comes off as condescending, and not in the "Haha, what silly, charming designs, amirite?" way either :L

Also, just to be on the safe side, you should edit your comment and write something in it. I don't frequent the site as often anymore, but I recall there being a rule where images aren't allowed without commentary.

 

[Sysreq]

Poe's Law tells me to lean toward the spiteful end for this one. It just comes off as condescending, and not in the "Haha, what silly, charming designs, amirite?" way either :L

Also, just to be on the safe side, you should edit your comment and write something in it. I don't frequent the site as often anymore, but I recall there being a rule where images aren't allowed without commentary.

Aww, I always thought that pic was funny. It seems more like poking fun than hating on.

 

[KarneraMythos]

Aww, I always thought that pic was funny. It seems more like poking fun than hating on.

I think what really hits the passive-aggressive nail on the head are lines like, "Don't worry about anatomy. Your audience won't notice." and "The more you add, the better your character design." Considering what Touhou's simplicity inspired, as hilariously off the art is, I'd say the character designs do a dang good job at laying the groundwork. Otherwise, the whole picture comes off as a thinly veiled, "Why the **** do people actually like these characters? They're horrendous!"

I laughed at first, then I got sad...

 

[Sysreq]

I think what really hits the passive-aggressive nail on the head are lines like, "Don't worry about anatomy. Your audience won't notice." and "The more you add, the better your character design." Considering what Touhou's simplicity inspired, as hilariously off the art is, I'd say the character designs do a dang good job at laying the groundwork. Otherwise, the whole picture comes off as a thinly veiled, "Why the **** do people actually like these characters? They're horrendous!"

I laughed at first, then I got sad...

Yeah, I guess I see where you're coming from actually. NobleClamtasm's comment just reminded me of the pic lol

 

[Troykv]

ZUN's drawings aren't exactly great, but they do their job in showing the charm of his designs.

In fact, I think the drawings have a cute charm.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I also think that, with admittedly one or two hiccups per game, ZUN's art has really improved over the years. Not that it hasn't always been cute, and I actually feel PC98 art tends to be underrated, but you can see a real progression, especially in posing and anatomy. Compare EoSD and WBaWC Reimu:

WBaWC Reimu has better defined hands, knees, calves, and shoes, and while I like the sassy EoSD pose as much as everyone else WBaWC Reimu is much more dynamic. It's also interesting comparing how ZUN's hair has changed, particularly how it's shaded.

edit: broken images

 

[TheTuninator]

Zun's command of anatomy is lacking, to say the least, but his costume designs are always on point.

 

[Luminario]

I mean he can already create some bangin games and music and visuals and outfits, he's gotta have some flaws.
He's better at drawing anatomy than me anyway.

 

[nintenplayer]

Oh god, it's been like, 11 million years since I visited Smashboards, and reading through all these past threads I realized how much I missed it. I may not have been expressing it on this site for a while now but know that my burning support for Reimu will never be extinguished.

I've noticed that recently on many online platforms such as Twitter Reimu's recognition as a potential candidate for DLC has been increasing, and I'm genuinely happy that people are taking this more seriously.

I think the way is pretty clear for our girl, this post earlier in the thread summarizes it pretty nicely. She's a gaming icon, she's got history, so on and so on. But there still remains this one very big thing that some people like to bring up. It's that they are worried about the consequences Reimu's inclusion in Smash would bring to the community.

It's the classic question of "doujin spirits". Zun is famous, notorious even, for staying in its doujin roots and supporting doujin communities rather than selling out to big corporations. And many fans, including myself, really respect that philosophy of his. However, some people think this is one of the biggest reason Reimu being included in Smash isn't really the best idea. They think it would be abandoning one of the key factors that made Touhou feel so special; doujin. As in, they are afraid that Touhou might get too mainstream. Now, I think it's a perfectly understandable thing to be worried about. I myself as well was kinda uncertain about what the future of Touhou community would look like once it clashes with such an immensely mainstream gaming community that is Smash.

However, ever since Canonball came out, that worries kinda got away. I think times have changed, and this is not a big enough reason to completely disregard the idea of Reimu in Smash.

This philosophy of "staying doujin" is great, but it can get kinda out of touch from time to time. As in, if the series gets too stubborn with it, I feel like it would cause it to miss out on a lot of great potentials. I see Reimu in Smash as a great potential for not only a fresh gaming experience but also for pleasing fans, but if this philosophy gets in the way of it, I feel like it's too much.

Also, Zun himself has already worked with big name franchises so far, especially with the rhythm games. And with the recent release of Touhou Canonball, I think Zun is finally getting much more flexible with his rules, and doijin philosophy isn't his top priority anymore. Now, if you ask me, making a full gacha mobile game about your series is making it much more mainstream than letting it get in Smash, so at this point, I think this whole doujin debate is not a big concern anymore.

But what are you guys' thoughts on this? Are you guys concerned about what her inclusion would mean to the Touhou community? Or is it just an overreaction?

 

[perfectchaos83]

Saw someone bring this up trying to relate 17.5 to the AoCF leaker

Personally, I don't think it's for 17.5, but it did remind me of something I never delved into. I am curious what that Japanese says. Anybody here capable of reading? I know A Ayumi Tachibana has been a resident translator.

But what are you guys' thoughts on this? Are you guys concerned about what her inclusion would mean to the Touhou community? Or is it just an overreaction?

There's a hilarious copypasta on 4chan somewhere about Reimu being in Smash, though I don't think it'll happen myself and it's a gross exaggeration. I think moderation is key here. As long as the doujin spirit stays intact, I don't think ZUN lending Touhou Project characters out to big name studios is all that detrimental to the fanbase. I think the core thing that makes Touhou as a franchise amazing is that everyone can use it so long as you follow ZUN's rules and if you're going to go that far, I think that licensing it out to bigger companies (should they show interest) is more of a boon than a bane.

 

[TheTuninator]

I don't think inclusion in Smash could potentially do any more damage than memes from the franchise breaking into the mainstream, which has already happened without ruining the series. If a series is truly of quality, I think anything that exposes more people to it is fundamentally a good thing. Especially with Touhou, there's absolutely no worry of the mainline games ever compromising themselves for the sake of popularity, since every aspect is under the strict creative control of a single individual.