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Shouldn't Tiers be based largely on matchups?

lordvaati

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I remember seeing in an old issue of Nintendo Power(from like, 1993) when they did the Street Fighter II Turbo Feauture. next to each of the characters was a chart that showed their percentage of beating the other characters(lke just for example, i Says Ryu has a 70% chance of beating a skilled M.Bison Player, but a 30% chance of beating a skilled Chun Li user,40% of beating Blanka,etc.) my question is why is it do they use a similar chart with Smsh Bros. tiers? or is it only based on Tournament usage?
 

Tenki

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my question is why is it do they use a similar chart with Smsh Bros. tiers? or is it only based on Tournament usage?
It's largely based on Tournament usage (how the 'top players' of each character use them in tourneys, and how high they tend to place).
 

lordvaati

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It's largely based on Tournament usage (how the 'top players' of each character use them in tourneys, and how high they tend to place).
oh. then I can see why tiers are so controversial- since they are based around percentage of use instead of the character's strengths and weaknesses, I'ts no wonder they get so much heat.
 

Tenki

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Not exactly.

I mentioned the "how the 'top players'..." part because of this.

Thousands of scrubby players will never affect the supposed tier placement (misuse of character, inability to space, etc) more than a handful of good players ever will.

It's usually because the good players are the ones that kind of take the characters' [on-paper] games and weed out/use whichever strategies are actually viable. So if it turns out through tourney use by top Falcons that the 'goodness combo' (first hit N-air > footstool > ..repeat .. > B-air lock > force standup > Falcon Punch) is a viable strategy with setups (lol) and starts to take the scene by storm, then there's a good chance that he might end up going upwards lol.

With an example that I can relate with more - if you have hundreds of Sonic players who just use spindash and don't know how to space aerials, common conception will think that "LOL Sonic can't space, all u have to do is shieldcamp and punish OoS when he spindashes you". But then when a good player uses Sonic and demonstrates things like using his run speed and low-lag stop to space and set up counterattacks to approaches, space aerials, cancel spindashes to bait moves, then all of a sudden you get a peek into what the character can be capable of at the peak of their gameplay.
 

Meru.

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I think they didn't base it on match ups because the match ups can change.
for example when the game first came out
MK vs. Ganondorf, now Ganon is a lot slower and the match up may have been like 95-5
over time new things are learned and may become something like 70-30
sorry if I'm just babbling on about something I just got confused on.
Tourney results also change over time.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Tiers are obviously affected by characters' strengths and weaknesses...

Tier lists are based off of:

1. Character tournament placings
2. Character metagame
3. Matchups.
4. Iunno, maybe some other stuff.

People stop saying tiers are based solely off tourney results, if they were then the tier list would be the same as Ankoku's Character Rankings List, which it clearly isn't.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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:flame:
The only reason that Tierlists can't be done soley on Match up Statistics is because the matchup statistics aren't concrete. Even the general consensi between same players is given different spins. One board might think that a match up is 60:40 in their favor, while PART of the other board thinks it is 70:30 against them, while the other PART of that board thinks it is 80:20 in their favor. If the criteria for matchups wasn't so variable between players, not to mention between boards, then the idea of a Tierlist based on matchups might be able to have some merrit. However, there is also the issue that people are capable of using characters in matchups that seem litterally unwinnable (Ganondorf verses Anyone), and still place well in Tournaments. They transend the "match up". So the match up can't be the only thing considered... atleast not until everyone's ideas for them syncs up. Tournament Statistics, which are like the batting averages and such of players, are capable of representing much more than the variable match ups. I once thought about a Tierlist based on match ups myself... It seems like it would be much different than the way they are now.
:flame:
 

xDD-Master

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A Tier List cant only be based on tournament results thats sure.

Simple Example:

If NO ONE would ever play Meta Knight, he would be last in this tier list because no one would play him at tournament, so the tournament results and the tier list is manipulated by the number of mains for certain characters. Also there are Skilldifferences. Fox Example it seems that Ally ist nearly unbeatable with his Snake, but should that mean that Snake must be #1 or is it only his Skill which makes his character better than the other players? ... decide yourself :dizzy:
 

jpl315

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Mar 15, 2008
Messages
76
Tiers are obviously affected by characters' strengths and weaknesses...

Tier lists are based off of:

1. Character tournament placings
2. Character metagame
3. Matchups.
4. Iunno, maybe some other stuff.

People stop saying tiers are based solely off tourney results, if they were then the tier list would be the same as Ankoku's Character Rankings List, which it clearly isn't.
exactly...everything needs to be included (and matchups are part of it)....also, they're all related to each other too...matchups obviously affect tournament placings, metagame affects matchups, etc...
 

Sirami

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Oct 19, 2007
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All good points. Maybe I'll just go with the fact that matchups are more important to me and leave it at that. I understand that the debate over accuracy of any tier list won't be solved by giving more weight to matchups (where I had thought it would be a solution before).

Thanks all.
 
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