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Should Time-Outs be a valid strategy?

Raijinken

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But at the same time, because the way smash tourneys are run, isn't it pretty easy for spectators to just watch a different match that's more exciting? And eventually if it's all hype and action and tense, wont it get boring for the spectators anyway? Just like any type of entertainment if it's all hype without any lows you can't really appreciate the hype.

Even putting that aside though, it's just about impossible for us to predict how Smash will develop as an e-sport the e-sport phenom is just too new in the first place. But what I'm getting at is, we keep bringing up "It's boring" and other similar statements about time outs, if that's really the main reason that presents a problem because it's not objective in the slightest. I'm starting to wonder the mechanical and technical cons to promoting time out victories. Though at the moment I can only see time as the downside.
Only if you're live. Especially for Smash, the vast majority of tournaments only offer one stream, so you get what's on or you go do something else.

When it comes to time being a tournament-length issue, the way time-out works is that it's more or less the "worst case scenario" from a logistics standpoint. That's the longest the round can go, unless the players have identical stock and percent by most rulesets at the end of time. A lot of people have been complaining that tournaments are running too long because the stock and time are set too high, but really, there are numerous other solutions to tournament logistics.

So if it's really an issue of time-outs taking the worst-case scenario to its fullest, then the only solution is to reduce that worst case scenario. But I'm fairly sure that isn't the only or best solution to tournament logistics.
 

Muro

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Those aren't real fans. If you can't appreciate the game as a whole you're not really a fan. You're just a person who likes watching. There's a difference between a 'fan' and 'spectator' just like there's a difference between a 'fan' and a 'super fan'. Yeah any one will tell you offense looks more interesting. But Offense doesn't win sports, defense does, any coach or real fan will tell you that.

I even tell my brothers, about smash, the first thing people learn after the basics is offense. Then they learn the defense. And those defensive moves are what separate the "good players" from the "Competitive players".

Edit: You might not like to watch it, but if you invalidate it just because it 'looks boring' then you're denying the participants' skill and effort just because you're bored. That's not very fan like.
I don't have to eat **** to be a fan of food.

...I want my team to win, so when Basketball has like 20 seconds on the shot clock but only like 15 seconds left in the game and it comes down to a serious one score lead, you better be damned skippy I want my team to stall those 15 seconds by simply dribbling the ball and passing until the game is over. A real fan watches the sport as a whole and wants their team to win at any cost. If you can't appreciate/find interest in your team doing what it takes to win you're not a real sports fan...
Individual sports are a better comparisson, you're already invested in your home team, not because you like how they play, but because they're from your town. But are you a fan of any individual sport? who are your favorite players in that? Or even smash? what are your favorite players to watch? would you rather watch zero play or esam?
 
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WillLi

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I don't have to eat **** to be a fan of food.



Individual sports are a better comparisson, you're already invested in your home team, not because you like how they play, but because they're from your town. But are you a fan of any individual sport? who are your favorite players in that? Or even smash? what are your favorite players to watch? would you rather watch zero play or esam?
'cept that's not food in the first place. And we're not talking about fans of things like food, we're talking about fans of a specific thing, not a broad category, so that's a different ball game. And we can argue the semantics of 'fandom' for ages, but that wont change that invalidating a strategy because it's 'boring' is invalidating the participants skill. Even boring strategies take skill and/or knowledge to execute. Would you like it if you could "Only shoot jump shots in NCAA Basketball cause we've seen enough layups and dunks." I doubt it, because that'd be stupid.

If you're going to disallow something you need unbiased solid reasons, otherwise you're just a politician dude.

And as for individal sports and smash, 'favorite player' is something entirely different. That's about what catches your attention more. It has -zero- relevance into whether or not something should be accepted or not. But why don't we follow your logic on one of your post on the first page.

fans of real sports also don't like defensive strategies. just because you're boring doesn't mean you're deep.
Being exciting doesn't make you deep either. Being deep makes you deep.

I'll spell out a few things for you too;
  • Boring or not is irrelevant when validity is concerned.
  • You're never gonna win an argument saying "People don't like boring stuff" it's subjective, and your only proof is your own thoughts.
  • E-sport or not, if we think about the spectators before the players then we're gonna wreck ourselves. If you want to please people then become a motivational speaker.
  • Try to actually add something to the discussion if you're gonna post, not just come back with "It's boring" you sound like a broken record.
 

Locke 06

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Individual sports are a better comparisson, you're already invested in your home team, not because you like how they play, but because they're from your town. But are you a fan of any individual sport? who are your favorite players in that? Or even smash? what are your favorite players to watch? would you rather watch zero play or esam?
You seem like you think you're the only sports fan who plays smash. News flash, you're not. Stalling is not an unpopular tactic by design. If I'm watching Italy v Spain soccer (football) and Italy is up a goal and clearing the ball instead of attacking with 10 minutes left, why wouldn't I like that? It is good strategic play. I'd be more upset if they tried to score and Spain scored an equalizer on a counter attack because that is just poor play. As a fan of the sport, I want to see good strategic play instead of throwing the game away even when I don't care who wins or loses.

Search for "Chartgate" on Google. University of Washington could have ran out the clock against Arizona, but the coach thought they needed 1 more first down. They ran plays, fumbled, and lost the game via field goal. Stalling was the option that fans of the game with no allegiance to either side should have hoped for. Wanting a dumb mistake like the one that happened is like wanting an untouched player to drop the ball before crossing the end zone. It may be "exciting" to watch and incite discussion, but fans of the sport should be shaking their head at how bad that play was.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Absolutely not. Time-out decisions happen because we need to move things along for the sake of respect for everyone's time. Sakurai put Sudden Deaths into Smash for the sake of settling a time-out. However, this is also not a viable way to finish a fight, since someone who just got to their last stock is fighting someone who's at 100% on their last one. Then they're both set to 300%.

I feel the fair way to settle it is to look at the damage percents by a fair margin. Perhaps 50% difference between the two. If the winning player choose to "camp" to avoid finishing the fight or risking a comeback, then he should have to pay the price by fighting the other player in either the Sudden Death routine or a 1-stock, 2 minute match to finish it. It should not reward "campy" players to win by the happenstance of time-out rather than skill, especially if their main concern is a comeback from an opponent who is, perhaps, a superior player.
 

WillLi

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Absolutely not. Time-out decisions happen because we need to move things along for the sake of respect for everyone's time. Sakurai put Sudden Deaths into Smash for the sake of settling a time-out. However, this is also not a viable way to finish a fight, since someone who just got to their last stock is fighting someone who's at 100% on their last one. Then they're both set to 300%.

I feel the fair way to settle it is to look at the damage percents by a fair margin. Perhaps 50% difference between the two. If the winning player choose to "camp" to avoid finishing the fight or risking a comeback, then he should have to pay the price by fighting the other player in either the Sudden Death routine or a 1-stock, 2 minute match to finish it. It should not reward "campy" players to win by the happenstance of time-out rather than skill, especially if their main concern is a comeback from an opponent who is, perhaps, a superior player.
Can you clarify what you're saying no to? Cause I'm kinda confused.
 

B!squick

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Time outs are lame and so are the people who use them. The PRIMARY purpose of tournaments is to have fun, put on a show, and hopefully make some money doing it. Time outs are border line cheating. It's not technically cheating, sure, but you're using the system to wring out every single possible benefit you can and in doing so make an experience that's frustrating for your opponent not entertaining for a viewer.

I mean, my god, it's a fighting game. ****ing fight. I will get mad when you run away the whole match and press B, you feel me?

Here's a good rule of thumb, IMO: if it's not something you'd be comfortable doing during friendlies or even serious friendlies, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
 

WillLi

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Time outs are lame and so are the people who use them. The PRIMARY purpose of tournaments is to have fun, put on a show, and hopefully make some money doing it. Time outs are border line cheating. It's not technically cheating, sure, but you're using the system to wring out every single possible benefit you can and in doing so make an experience that's frustrating for your opponent not entertaining for a viewer.

I mean, my god, it's a fighting game. ****ing fight. I will get mad when you run away the whole match and press B, you feel me?

Here's a good rule of thumb, IMO: if it's not something you'd be comfortable doing during friendlies or even serious friendlies, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
There's a reason they're called 'friendlies' Jay. It's because they're fundamentally different. When you become a pro you do what it takes to win that's within the rules. Yeah of course there's sportsmanship, but if we're taking that into account you need to take it into account as well in your apply. Not every 'time out' is a match of someone just being campy and running away. You can't even -really- go for a time out strategically when a lot of time is left on the clock, it's too much of a risk unless you're already near your limit. But again, that'd mean you've already gotten beat down pretty badly.

So the majority of your post isn't really about time outs but rather bad sportsmanship. And yeah bad sportsmanship is bad, that's why it's called bad sportsmanship. But there are other ways to go for time outs.

Like for instance being in the last legs of a match with Sheik, you're both at one stock and the clock is getting low. Sheik could either get aggressive and try to rack up the large damage she needs for a kill and then go for it, or get a good damage separation and then play to her strengths and keep her opponent at bay for the last minute or so. I don't see anything 'wrong' with the later option, that's good sportsmanship, playing to the character's strength and no where near 'border line cheating'.

And for the record fighting is more mental than physical, in real life and in games. "Attack attack attack" is not 'fighting' if that were the case just about anyone who bought the game could give any pro a run for his money. You need -strategy- not just fancy techniques, and knowing that if you go on the offensive you lower your chances of winning in the last leg of the match and thus deciding to stay on defense is strategy.
 

mimgrim

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Absolutely not. Time-out decisions happen because we need to move things along for the sake of respect for everyone's time. Sakurai put Sudden Deaths into Smash for the sake of settling a time-out. However, this is also not a viable way to finish a fight, since someone who just got to their last stock is fighting someone who's at 100% on their last one. Then they're both set to 300%.

I feel the fair way to settle it is to look at the damage percents by a fair margin. Perhaps 50% difference between the two. If the winning player choose to "camp" to avoid finishing the fight or risking a comeback, then he should have to pay the price by fighting the other player in either the Sudden Death routine or a 1-stock, 2 minute match to finish it. It should not reward "campy" players to win by the happenstance of time-out rather than skill, especially if their main concern is a comeback from an opponent who is, perhaps, a superior player.
>Implies camping to stall out to time-out requires no skill

I laughed. Thar pretty much tells me everything I need to know.
 

Emblem Lord

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Time outs are lame and so are the people who use them. The PRIMARY purpose of tournaments is to have fun, put on a show, and hopefully make some money doing it. Time outs are border line cheating. It's not technically cheating, sure, but you're using the system to wring out every single possible benefit you can and in doing so make an experience that's frustrating for your opponent not entertaining for a viewer.

I mean, my god, it's a fighting game. ****ing fight. I will get mad when you run away the whole match and press B, you feel me?

Here's a good rule of thumb, IMO: if it's not something you'd be comfortable doing during friendlies or even serious friendlies, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
Glad some of yall never played me in Street Fighter 2.

Swear on my life you will eat Tiger Shots all day and when you get close imma throw your sorry behind back to the other side of the screen or just jump away from you.

Runaway is legit and should be rewarded.
 

Big O

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Time-outs should be a valid strategy, but there are a few problems with it in smash.

- There is no official standard for how long the game is supposed to run (unless we conform to FG rules)
- Very few people actually like way the game itself handles time-outs (Sudden Death)
- While the idea behind it might not be that bad, the implementation of Sudden Death is pretty bad

Since there is no standard on the settings for tourneys, the viability of wins by time-out varies greatly. A random TO might go with 2 stock 5 mins, 2 stock 6 mins, 2 stock 8 mins, 3 stock 6 mins, 3 stock 8 mins, or even stock matches without a timer at all. There is less incentive to stall for time when more time is allowed per game, so most TO's set the timers to make time-outs impractical, making games end sooner than they would otherwise. Until there is a decent in-game solution for settling ties that doesn't outright suck, it is in their best interests to make time-outs a nonviable strategy. Doing so also happens to make games end sooner, unless the timer is set to something so low it would probably distort the meta.

The only true measure of who's winning in stock matches are the amount of lives you have remaining. Everyone agrees whoever has more stocks should be declared the winner, even the game itself. However, if the stocks are tied the game ignores all other factors like % and goes to Sudden Death. This is where the problems start.

Objectively, the % lead is somewhat arbitrary in the context of who's really winning (closer to taking the opponent's stock). In other fighting games where dealing damage is all you do, comparing life bars is easy and the obvious thing to do. In smash, % is one of many factors that contribute to the end goal of getting KO's. Weight, knockback, recovery ability, and gimping potential are all variables that directly influence getting and avoiding KO's. A Jigglypuff at 99% is a lot closer to dying than a Bowser at 100%. Since % isn't a true indicator of who's winning, Sudden Death comes in to act as a tiebreaker match.

Sudden Death in its current form is hated by most tourney players for a few reasons.

- The game resets all the previous conditions of the match
- Both players start at 300%, which is high enough to KO with almost anything.
- Bombs randomly spawning on the stage after ~20-30 seconds to discourage players from stalling

It is fine that Sudden Death happens when time runs out regardless of the %'s for both players, but it is another thing for it to reset the %'s going into it too. If you were at 0% and your opponent was at 100% for example, having both get set to some arbitrary value is dumb. It is even dumber when that arbitrary value is so high, that almost anything KO's (hilariously biased towards characters that can land a quick hit safely). The fact that bombs spawn randomly after a short amount of time to discourage stalling adds another layer of crap to an already crappy tiebreaker mechanic. If the %'s of both players transferred over to Sudden Death and the anti-stalling bombs of death were replaced by something legit and not random everyone would embrace it.

A hypothetical fun and fair Sudden Death match could have the %'s of each player carry over and have mechanics like augmented knockback and/or poison to increase % over time to speed things up. Perhaps having no invincibility or shields that regenerate very slowly would be good ideas too. Maybe bursts of wind pushing the characters closer together and gradually strengthen over time could replace the silly anti-stall random bombs. There are a million ways to make Sudden Death more legit and more hype. Sadly, all we can do is hope for a patch (or more realistically the next smash game) to address this.

Due to how terribly Sudden Death was handled, most people think that the winner should be determined by % lead in the event of a tie in stocks left for both players/teams and just agree to honor that. It is arbitrary and perhaps even scrubby according to traditional FG philosophy, but for most people it is better than playing out Sudden Death.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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>Implies camping to stall out to time-out requires no skill

I laughed. Thar pretty much tells me everything I need to know.
I don't know who Thar is.

But if you're implying something, I'd love to read it. Go on now.
 
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B!squick

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Glad some of yall never played me in Street Fighter 2.

Swear on my life you will eat Tiger Shots all day and when you get close imma throw your sorry behind back to the other side of the screen or just jump away from you.

Runaway is legit and should be rewarded.
Smash =/= SF2

You can't completely avoid someone in other fighting games like you can in Smash.

And there's a difference between camping and stalling for time. See: planking.
 

Muro

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'cept that's not food in the first place. And we're not talking about fans of things like food, we're talking about fans of a specific thing, not a broad category, so that's a different ball game. And we can argue the semantics of 'fandom' for ages, but that wont change that invalidating a strategy because it's 'boring' is invalidating the participants skill. Even boring strategies take skill and/or knowledge to execute. Would you like it if you could "Only shoot jump shots in NCAA Basketball cause we've seen enough layups and dunks." I doubt it, because that'd be stupid.

If you're going to disallow something you need unbiased solid reasons, otherwise you're just a politician dude.

And as for individal sports and smash, 'favorite player' is something entirely different. That's about what catches your attention more. It has -zero- relevance into whether or not something should be accepted or not. But why don't we follow your logic on one of your post on the first page.



Being exciting doesn't make you deep either. Being deep makes you deep.

I'll spell out a few things for you too;
  • Boring or not is irrelevant when validity is concerned.
  • You're never gonna win an argument saying "People don't like boring stuff" it's subjective, and your only proof is your own thoughts.
  • E-sport or not, if we think about the spectators before the players then we're gonna wreck ourselves. If you want to please people then become a motivational speaker.
  • Try to actually add something to the discussion if you're gonna post, not just come back with "It's boring" you sound like a broken record.
yeah because sports rules were never tweaked for viewership. But nevermind that.
Time limits are not used because they're better, they're needed because we can't have matches last forever. They're a necessary evil, not the objective.

You seem like you think you're the only sports fan who plays smash. News flash, you're not. Stalling is not an unpopular tactic by design. If I'm watching Italy v Spain soccer (football) and Italy is up a goal and clearing the ball instead of attacking with 10 minutes left, why wouldn't I like that? It is good strategic play. I'd be more upset if they tried to score and Spain scored an equalizer on a counter attack because that is just poor play. As a fan of the sport, I want to see good strategic play instead of throwing the game away even when I don't care who wins or loses.

Search for "Chartgate" on Google. University of Washington could have ran out the clock against Arizona, but the coach thought they needed 1 more first down. They ran plays, fumbled, and lost the game via field goal. Stalling was the option that fans of the game with no allegiance to either side should have hoped for. Wanting a dumb mistake like the one that happened is like wanting an untouched player to drop the ball before crossing the end zone. It may be "exciting" to watch and incite discussion, but fans of the sport should be shaking their head at how bad that play was.
where did you get the impression that I think I'm the only sports fan that plays smash? I know that defensive play is a good strategy, however it's not always what I want to see. It's especially annoying in smash because it consists of avoiding interaction altogether, unlike most instances in sports. And even then sports have specific rules in place to avoid being too defensive, which we can't afford in smash because it's sakurai who makes the rules.

This argument is not the point of this thread though, so I'll drop it.
 

GSM_Dren

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Yes, timeouts should be a valid strategy. As @ Nobie Nobie said: If there's a clock, people will try to run it down. If there isn't a clock, people will try to stall until the opponent gets sick of it. It's a part of human nature you can't stop. Time is needed to avoid an endless match and 8 minutes seem to work (although I think it could be lowered a min or so...).

Time out strategies should only apply to tournament matches (if you time out during friendlies, get out), where money is on the line. For me personally, I would not consider timing my opponent out until it's crunch time with ~2-3 minutes left; if I'm not confident with finishing their stock and have a sizeable % lead, you better bet I'm going to do what it takes to win the match. Yes, timing out is lame from crowd perspective, but they're not the ones playing. Play to win mantra, etc. I guess.
 

Morbi

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Yes, timeouts should be a valid strategy. As @ Nobie Nobie said: If there's a clock, people will try to run it down. If there isn't a clock, people will try to stall until the opponent gets sick of it. It's a part of human nature you can't stop. Time is needed to avoid an endless match and 8 minutes seem to work (although I think it could be lowered a min or so...).

Time out strategies should only apply to tournament matches (if you time out during friendlies, get out), where money is on the line. For me personally, I would not consider timing my opponent out until it's crunch time with ~2-3 minutes left; if I'm not confident with finishing their stock and have a sizeable % lead, you better bet I'm going to do what it takes to win the match. Yes, timing out is lame from crowd perspective, but they're not the ones playing. Play to win mantra, etc. I guess.
That sentiment could be described as self-referential incoherence. Either stalling is human nature, or it is not. Friendlies should not be an exception to the rule in the event that stalling is human nature as human nature is intrinsic to humans playing the game, correct? Regardless, one must consider the audience when determining rules such as this. They are not the ones playing, but they are the ones supporting the game, usually through ad revenue. If games last too long, people will not be inclined to watch and therefore potential profit is lost. Eight minutes is FAR too long. I understand that that has been our standard for quite some time, but in comparison to other fighting games (or the average Melee match), the timer is dreadfully stagnant.

As per the original post, I do not mind time-outs being a feasible strategy depending on the circumstances, namely a more reasonable timer (six minutes is acceptable).
 

GSM_Dren

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That sentiment could be described as self-referential incoherence. Either stalling is human nature, or it is not. Friendlies should not be an exception to the rule in the event that stalling is human nature as human nature is intrinsic to humans playing the game, correct? Regardless, one must consider the audience when determining rules such as this. They are not the ones playing, but they are the ones supporting the game, usually through ad revenue. If games last too long, people will not be inclined to watch and therefore potential profit is lost. Eight minutes is FAR too long. I understand that that has been our standard for quite some time, but in comparison to other fighting games (or the average Melee match), the timer is dreadfully stagnant.

As per the original post, I do not mind time-outs being a feasible strategy depending on the circumstances, namely a more reasonable timer (six minutes is acceptable).
I think you took that statement a little too deeply, but I understand and agree with what you mean. When compared to Melee, eight minutes was definitely way too long for the slower paced Brawl (and the main factor why it died out). I'd say that 8 minutes should be the limit, and work our way lowering it from there. A more reasonable timer indeed would keep the crowd interested and would prod the match to be less stagnant.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Yes it should be a valid strategy, but in smash 4 with 2-3 sticks around 6-8 minutes I don't see it being that viable.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Yes it should be a valid strategy, but in smash 4 with 2-3 sticks around 6-8 minutes I don't see it being that viable.
 

PCHU

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Running away is a legitimate strategy not only because it works but also because this game's mechanics actually support it (notice the increased hitstun on projectiles in general compared to Brawl as well as the slightly larger contrast in speed/attack speed between characters).
I can't say it's bad because it's smart play, but lots of people agree that it's not very fun to watch (I've actually enjoyed quite a few rather campy Brawl/Melee matches, but purely campy play with no desire to approach at all gets stale pretty fast).
I honestly think if other fighting game fans had to watch 5-8 minutes of stalling or camping for one game, over time, they'd get a little winded as well.

Timeouts in BB were much more tolerable than Smash 4 timeouts (and I say this as a Tager main); in Smash 4, it feels like I may as well be fighting someone else in the time it takes to finally catch the person in their few frames of vulnerability where I can actually reach them, whereas BB doesn't allow players much room to actually run.
Not to mention in Brawl, timeouts (in my experience) came from long battles of close spacing, something closer to actual interaction than zoning (although I'm no stranger to seeing Diddy/Snake/Falco/MK planking).
 

Nobie

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If both players are literally standing on opposite sides of the screen doing nothing, or one character literally cannot be caught or cornered (in the figurative sense) by the other, then it's a problem. However, in general the stages that are most conducive to just straight up running away like Hyrule Temple are banned for precisely that reason.

One thing I've thought about recently is that, aside from the whole platforming thing, one major difference between Smash and other fighting games is the whole stocks + damage thing. In almost every other fighting game (Killer Instinct being one exception), damage is not retained between rounds, and so every fight is for one "stock" at a time. This means that if your opponent is at 100% health and you're at 10% health, if you want to overcome the opponent and win via time you have to deal 91% damage. In Smash, however, if you're down a stock and at 50% damage, you have to first find a way to KO them and THEN damage them enough to get the life lead. Inflicting damage is only part of the story. If all Smash games were played with 1 stock only, timeouts would be a more precarious thing because there'd be no way to get this major buffer. The more stocks you have, the more likely one is able to get a huge lead that is difficult to overcome.

Of course, that seems counter-intuitive because Melee hardly ever has games go down to time, and it uses 4 stocks. The difference is that in Melee stocks come and go pretty easily. As has been said, a 2-stock lead isn't necessarily something to be afraid of. In Melee, you can potentially reduce a stock lead in about as much time as a character in Smash 4 can deal 80% damage. This isn't to advocate 1-stock matches (though who knows? it might work), but to simply say that, for Smash, getting the life lead can be a bit more literal in video game terms, and this inevitably affects the concept of zoning/runaway/stalling.
 
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