Should Suicide be Illegal?

[Grandeza]

In principle, I don't have any issues with someone being allowed to kill themselves. They ought to have the freedom to do it.


That being said, there are some serious logistical issues that have to be considered with allowing suicide. There are lots of loopholes that one can go through that could allow someone to get away with murder. The purpose for outlawing suicide is not so much as to prevent people from killing themselves, but rather to close some of these loopholes.

If suicide were legal, then you would be able to assist someone in it. So then in order to get away with murder, all you need is to get the victim to sign a paper saying that they wanted to die and are having you do it. Then you kill them. You could either threaten the person into signing the paper, or just trick them.

Plus, what about changing minds? What if someone really does want to commit suicide but changes their mind at the last second? What then happens to the assistant who goes ahead with the suicide anyway. Is he a murderer? What if the person told the assistant to go ahead with it, even if he changes his mind at the last moment? There's too many issues.


The easiest line of action is to outlaw suicide. Obviously you're free to do it, no matter what the law is. But now we don't have any silly issues with assisting and such.

All these loopholes seem to have to do with assisted suicide. So why not just outlaw assisting someone in a suicide? I think that would negate all these loopholes, no?

 

[SSBbo]

i think that it can be legal, but no one has the right to a proper burial if they commit suicide, because if someone doesn't have the respect for themselves, they shouldn't have a respectful burial.

 

[pockyD]

i think that it can be legal, but no one has the right to a proper burial if they commit suicide, because if someone doesn't have the respect for themselves, they shouldn't have a respectful burial.

Is this a serious post?

"Proper" burials are almost never for the benefit of the deceased; they're for the benefit of their "loved ones". Why are you punishing people at random (in addition to basically charging cremation or whatever to the state, and subsequently to the taxpayers)?

 

[Pluvia's other account]

i think that it can be legal, but no one has the right to a proper burial if they commit suicide, because if someone doesn't have the respect for themselves, they shouldn't have a respectful burial.

Woah, couldn't disagree with you more there. There is like so much wrong with that post.

People kill themselves because they get so depressed that it seems like the only way out. If anyone I knew ever killed themselves, I'd want them to have a proper burial, and I would be absolutely mortified if someone said that they didn't deserve one.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

What I meant by the physical sense is how you described it: I don't see how it's a very serious crime when we're talking about the law of the land. However, in a religious sense, suicide is a very serious crime, or sin. Does that clear it up?

 

[cutter]

This seems silly. Aside from the whole "what is the gov't going to do, arrest you after the fact?", committing suicide is the decision of that person who decides to do it; not the decision of the government.

 

[WindyKitt]

I have been told that if you attempt suicide and fail, you are basically put on house arrest or you are institutionalized.

That being said, I agree when I hear people say suicide is one of the most selfish things you can do. Others may say, "Oh, the people are depressed. If they think it would be better if they were dead, it's their choice." It is their choice, but it's a stupid choice. A suicidal person may think that nobody loves them, their lives are going down the tubes, or nothing has ever gone right. But the reason I think that it's so selfish is that there has to have been one thing making your life worthwhile. One person whose life you have touched. Maybe your parents, siblings, friends, significant others. There's usually at least one thing that should keep someone from doing it. They decide that their reason for suicide is more important than those people who care for them.

Most suicides are due to "family problems." Death in the family, divorce, and all those reasons related to family. But the thing is that most of these problems don't usually end up with having no friends or having no one care about you. It's most likely that there is some one who still cares about you. It turns out that many suicides are spur of the moment. And these people with current problems don't usually think that some people's lives will be affected negatively. As it's been said, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

So as for whether it should be legal, if some one attempts suicide or is having suicidal thoughts, they should be under watch to make sure they can't commit suicide. As for illness related, they should be treated in the best possible way. -frowns at fact that there aren't very effective depression treatments-

In short, (too late!) suicide should be taboo and shouldn't be tolerated. I apologize if I've sounded too harsh.

 

[chucklesXcore]

I have been told that if you attempt suicide and fail, you are basically put on house arrest or you are institutionalized.

That being said, I agree when I hear people say suicide is one of the most selfish things you can do. Others may say, "Oh, the people are depressed. If they think it would be better if they were dead, it's their choice." It is their choice, but it's a stupid choice. A suicidal person may think that nobody loves them, their lives are going down the tubes, or nothing has ever gone right. But the reason I think that it's so selfish is that there has to have been one thing making your life worthwhile. One person whose life you have touched. Maybe your parents, siblings, friends, significant others. There's usually at least one thing that should keep someone from doing it. They decide that their reason for suicide is more important than those people who care for them.

Most suicides are due to "family problems." Death in the family, divorce, and all those reasons related to family. But the thing is that most of these problems don't usually end up with having no friends or having no one care about you. It's most likely that there is some one who still cares about you. It turns out that many suicides are spur of the moment. And these people with current problems don't usually think that some people's lives will be affected negatively. As it's been said, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

So as for whether it should be legal, if some one attempts suicide or is having suicidal thoughts, they should be under watch to make sure they can't commit suicide. As for illness related, they should be treated in the best possible way. -frowns at fact that there aren't very effective depression treatments-

In short, (too late!) suicide should be taboo and shouldn't be tolerated. I apologize if I've sounded too harsh.

I have some things to say back to this. As a christian, I thought I'd have an easy go to stand point, but in all honest I'm really stuck in the middle.

For one, I'd like to clear up, people don't always kill themselves because they feel they have nothing left, its that the pain is too much bear for them. I knew a guy who's own brother wanted to force him into a gang. In the gang he would pretty much be killed by rival gangs because he was going to be used as almost something to lure them out or something. Not really sure what, but he probably would've died or been involved in something very disheartening or been beaten up daily by his own brother whom he loved dearly. they were close. so he wanted to die...and killed himself. He knew people cared about him, but sometimes people break. I don't see how you can get out of that pain. Its his brother. No words or comfort could have changed that. Avoiding him would make him feel at a loss for not having a relationship with his brother. So I would definitely have to disagree with the statement that killing yourself is always selfish. Its selfish to expect someone to just "suck it up" and take extreme amounts of emotional pain sometimes.

Granted, a lot of the time there are ways to stem the tide until the depression is over or the event is over. I don't agree with people kill themselves over an event like "my life cheated on me" or something like that. While traumatizing, theres a way to get over it. Your life isn't going to be endangered by it, and theres new relationships you can build. If theres anything that can be done, you should indeed look to do it and try before taking the last alternative that no one should look to take. If your first thoughts are suicide, a person should seek help. Sometimes though, as said before. there's not much help you can get. which puts me at this neutral stand point.

should suicide be legal? well thats tough. I think its absolutely ridiculous to make it illegal. but to say its "ok" to kill yourself is another thing. If you fail at killing yourself, your going to be even more depressed than you already were....so I can see the side of people who want these who fail at their attempts to get help. I see how it can help them. I also see how it takes away liberties too. Its your life, live it how you want....until you want to end it. you can't end on your own terms sorry. I don't like that idea. But at the same time, your life affects many others and you can screw over everyone else(not just emotionally, but in some cases financially) that you know. I mean, if the leader of a locally ran business offed himself, that would put the business at a tough spot. they might not have anyone else who knows how to run it, etc. Also, if a husband offs himself or a wife. that might place a huge financial burden on top of an already very emotional burden of their spouse. Its not always about the person. However, if your young...I must say your life usually does not affect those around you the same way an older person does. I'm not saying this makes it more right for a teen to kill themselves. its just a thought.

Anyway, since I'm neutral I'll leave it at that. Just my thoughts on the whole thing.

 

[WindyKitt]

I can see the point you're making with why people do it, but I failed to mention those because they're so few and far between, they don't really factor in.

 

[chucklesXcore]

I can see the point you're making with why people do it, but I failed to mention those because they're so few and far between, they don't really factor in.

to say someones life doesn't factor in is a pretty big statement. that may be a harsh retaliation, but its the truth. everyone's life matters. and to turn a person into just a statistic is wrong.

 

[marthanoob]

to say someones life doesn't factor in is a pretty big statement. that may be a harsh retaliation, but its the truth. everyone's life matters. and to turn a person into just a statistic is wrong.

Please explain why.
How would we be able to compute demographics or take a census without using statistics?
It may just be me, but you are making no sense.

 

[WindyKitt]

I'm just saying that you barely ever see those cases. With those kinds of cases that you mentioned, I'm not saying they don't matter, it's just you don't see them very often. I'm not saying that they don't matter, I'm just saying I don't see any practical solution in those cases, so in a debate, I discount those. Their lives do matter, but there's probably a less than 1% chance of those cases happening. They don't account for the majority of suicide cases. I'm sorry for your friend, but I'm going on cold, hard facts.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

A suicidal person may think that nobody loves them, their lives are going down the tubes, or nothing has ever gone right. But the reason I think that it's so selfish is that there has to have been one thing making your life worthwhile. One person whose life you have touched. Maybe your parents, siblings, friends, significant others. There's usually at least one thing that should keep someone from doing it. They decide that their reason for suicide is more important than those people who care for them.

Mostly people kill themselves because they think that there is no one there for them, or there's nothing that the people who are there for them can do.

And it may come across as being selfish to a degree, but like I read once, being angry at someone because they killed themselves, is the definition of selfish.

Yeah, you're upset, but they're dead.

 

[blazedaces]

I'm just saying that you barely ever see those cases. With those kinds of cases that you mentioned, I'm not saying they don't matter, it's just you don't see them very often. I'm not saying that they don't matter, I'm just saying I don't see any practical solution in those cases, so in a debate, I discount those. Their lives do matter, but there's probably a less than 1% chance of those cases happening. They don't account for the majority of suicide cases. I'm sorry for your friend, but I'm going on cold, hard facts.

What cold hard facts?! You haven't sourced a single thing!

-blazed

 

[WindyKitt]

I forgot to cite my sources, but it was a study done around the world and partly in India where 25% of people attempted suicide due to "family problems" and 33% due to illness.

 

[pockyD]

And it may come across as being selfish to a degree, but like I read once, being angry at someone because they killed themselves, is the definition of selfish.

I would really appreciate this train of thought explained in detail, because it really makes no sense to me

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I would really appreciate this train of thought explained in detail, because it really makes no sense to me

Oops sorry.

I was meant to say that yeah suicide can come across as being selfish, but really, being angry at someone because they killed themselves is far more selfish.

The emotional pain that the person who killed themselves was feeling was so severe, that they killed themselves. Being angry at them because they made you upset is just stupid really.

 

[pockyD]

how is it more selfish?

in the situation you described, the suicider is ending his/her life simply because HE (i'm going to stop doing he/she because that's annoying) can't stand the pain on himself. You made no mention of thinking of the pain he was causing others (not to mention people who suicide in such a way to foster insurance claims, reduce tax load, etc. etc.)

people who are "angry" at the suicider are either their creditor (in which case they are obviously selfish, but also justified IMO), or someone who actually cares about the person, and are more concerned that their loved one is dead than that they lost a loved one. Ignore for the moment that it was suicide, and imagine that the person died from a traffic accident or something. Are all of their mourners being selfish? Or is it more likely that they feel genuine sorrow for their fallen friend?

Obviously there are cases where the mourner is being selfish, but it is an exception rather than the rule, and the blanket statement that you made certainly doesn't apply (and in these cases, the suicider was still probably at least as selfish)

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I'd probably agree in saying that suicide is the most selfish thing a human can do.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I'm not talking about being upset, I'm talking about being angry and blaming the person that they made you upset.

 

[pockyD]

but if you want to follow this weird twisty path of logic (which it seems like you do), the reason you're upset to begin with is probably because you care for the person

 

[Pluvia's other account]

But this still doesn't explain why it's the most selfish thing someone can do. Can someone explain to me how it's the most selfish thing someone can do? No "what if's", just suicide in general.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Because you are online thinking about your personal anguish when you commit suicide. There are other people who are acquainted to you that may feel bad after you die.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Then again, your personal anguish has gotten to the point that the only solution you can see is to kill yourself. Some people do it on a spur of the moment thing, but I'm pretty sure those cases are rare compared to those suffering with depression.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

No matter what your mental condition is, it is still a selfish act because it doesn't consider the feelings of the people in your life.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Yeah if you have someone there for you, it is selfish. But both sides can be selfish, not just one or the other.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I was just saying the act of suicide was a selfish act. I honestly didn't read this thread since I last posted.

 

[chucklesXcore]

Please explain why.
How would we be able to compute demographics or take a census without using statistics?
It may just be me, but you are making no sense.

I'm not saying we can't have statistics...that wasn't my argument. But suicide is a whole different type of topic. This isn't race, gender, sexuality, household income, or anything along those lines. This is is ending your own life. Death. A lot more touchy of a subject obviously. And I think that someones life shouldn't become a statistic when it comes to suicide. You can't just say "these are few and far in between" because thats a little ridiculous. Think of it. If your brother was the one who killed himself over something he couldn't handle and could do nothing about it. No one could help him. But everyone turned on him and called him selfish for doing it. How would you feel? Wouldn't you defend him? Yes you would. You would know the truth. Even the smallest percentage matters because its someone's life and that usually affects others or others deeply care about them. Its not common to have to walk this life alone. theres usually someone else there. So if someone kills themselves over something they couldn't handle, why should it not matter just because it happens less often? Its still there. You can't just ignore a group of people just because statistically they aren't as large as the most common group.

 

[marthanoob]

I'm not saying we can't have statistics...that wasn't my argument. But suicide is a whole different type of topic. This isn't race, gender, sexuality, household income, or anything along those lines. This is is ending your own life. Death. A lot more touchy of a subject obviously. And I think that someones life shouldn't become a statistic when it comes to suicide. You can't just say "these are few and far in between" because thats a little ridiculous. Think of it. If your brother was the one who killed himself over something he couldn't handle and could do nothing about it. No one could help him. But everyone turned on him and called him selfish for doing it. How would you feel? Wouldn't you defend him? Yes you would. You would know the truth. Even the smallest percentage matters because its someone's life and that usually affects others or others deeply care about them. Its not common to have to walk this life alone. theres usually someone else there. So if someone kills themselves over something they couldn't handle, why should it not matter just because it happens less often? Its still there. You can't just ignore a group of people just because statistically they aren't as large as the most common group.

Sorry, I was being overly literal.
Calling him selfish is an ignorant reaction, and is indirectly a defense mechanism for avoiding sadness, turning it into anger.
I would defend his right to freedom, and would call his decision impatient and unwise, but I would not despise him, blame all our problems on him, or call him selfish.

No you can't ignore them completely, they deserve as much attention as their size. Right now, the effects of stress and sedentary lifestyles deserves most of our attention, not suicide.

 

[chucklesXcore]

No you can't ignore them completely, they deserve as much attention as their size. Right now, the effects of stress and sedentary lifestyles deserves most of our attention, not suicide.

definitely agree with this whole heartedly. when I say the suicides matter, I don't mean they should stand out as a focus as much as they should be taken note of just as much as other suicides. Suicide prevention is definitely something we should all be focusing on. organizations like TWLOHA are great for things like this.

 

[1337marth]

It would be nice, but if they are already dead, what will you do?

 

[znintendotaku]

I dont think it shoud be illegal, i mean if someone has grown tired of living and wants to die, who's to stop him/her?