Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
Too bad that the C/D tiers don't have top players. No one (intelligent) would be complaning about MK at all if most of the other top tiers got just about the same amount of love he did.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
He's baaaaaaaaaaack
How many alts is this now, 50? lmao...
Malva01
Smash Rookie
Back? I'm Isai! I never left!
Mew2King
King of the Mews
last time i saw DSF and DEHF fight it was livestream from Winter Gamefest (sadly vids didnt get saved but I was watching livestream all day) and DEHF lost the first game to DSF by 1 stock 190% (so it was basically even) and then DEHF won by 2 stock TWICE in a row and then 1 stock low %. All the matches were Falco vs MK. So it can't be that bad
The_Altrox
Smash Lord
Quich question: Which characters come closest to countering MK?
I assume Diddy is one on FD, but...
I assume Diddy is one on FD, but...
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Most of the cast at least have either better anti-juggle Dairs, faster falling, faster lateral movement in the air, a better wave bounceable move, multiple jumps, other options, etc. Most of the cast is not as weak from below, as Marth is.
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
And do all those people not want MK banned?
My point was that the reason a large number of pros don't want MK banned is that a large number of pros main MK.
If a non-MK main wants MK banned, that doesn't help your argument.
Also, M2K, anecdotal evidence ftl.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
Wario, Pikachu, DDD, Falco, Olimar, Diddy, Snake. They all come close.
Yes Olimar does. Come play EC olimars if you don't believe it.
Obviously a large number of top players are going to main the best character, there is still a portion that do not main him and beat those players.
There is only ONE MK that my poke you run away and try to time out DDD hasn't beaten. There are 3 that my LETS PLAY RECKLESSLY AND RUN AT YOU one hasn't.
Yes Olimar does. Come play EC olimars if you don't believe it.
All those players don't want him banned.
Obviously a large number of top players are going to main the best character, there is still a portion that do not main him and beat those players.
There is only ONE MK that my poke you run away and try to time out DDD hasn't beaten. There are 3 that my LETS PLAY RECKLESSLY AND RUN AT YOU one hasn't.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
ALL MKs ban FD. The closest other than that is Snake on Halberd or Corneria (if it's legal)
or Diddy on Smashville or Poke Stadium 1
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Altrox, Diddy does well against MK on a LOT of stages. FD is one of the best, but really he does well against him on all neutrals, and PS1, and isn't too disadvantaged unless it's Rainbow Cruise.
Edit: Also, even though a bit of pros who main MK don't want him banned (with the exception of Overswarm), they bring up very good points, and because they're pros they actually know what they're talking about. M2K has brought up very good points, yet it feels like they're being written off because, "Oh, he just wants money, blah blah."
And OBVIOUSLY people who main a character aren't going to want them banned.
The fact that these people don't want him banned has nothing to do with the argument if MK is actually broken or not.
Edit: Also, even though a bit of pros who main MK don't want him banned (with the exception of Overswarm), they bring up very good points, and because they're pros they actually know what they're talking about. M2K has brought up very good points, yet it feels like they're being written off because, "Oh, he just wants money, blah blah."
And OBVIOUSLY people who main a character aren't going to want them banned.
The fact that these people don't want him banned has nothing to do with the argument if MK is actually broken or not.
He doesn't lie. Olimar is really ****in hard for meta to approach.
Countering? No one.
Wario is the only one that can be argued to have a neutral matchup, maybe.
Diddy gets gimped badly when the MK knows the matchup, and MK can juggle Snake badly and gimp him. Wario MAY be even, but I haven't seen enough data on it yet. Diddy's only slightly disadvantaged, but he certainly doesn't counter him.
Malva01
Smash Rookie
Can anyone make a pro player comparison with m2k? m2k gimps everything, no jonhs.
Show me another MK that gimps a top diddy.
Show me another MK that gimps a top diddy.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
"I'll just flat out say it. Reason I say SBR is afriad to bann meta is
- Too many people use Meta to get them far or get them cash. Even people in the SBR
- It be harder to place for I say 50% of meta players or meta mains.
- The Next best thing would be Snake. And he has bad match ups and can be counterpicked fairly. Even with stages. Going snake decreases the chances of losing cause counterpicking would be more affective.
- People who make money of this game would be at risk to losing to people they would usually not lose too if meta was playable.
- People who win lost of money are now at risk at not winning money. If they do, not as much as before, or just get taking out.
- Player ranks would raise and drop.
There might be more but thats all i got for now. These reasons I see why SBR is afraid to bann meta. We all know what kind of character he is. we all see the broken crap he is on. We all know that brawl is mostly meta and its getting boring and annoying to people. People losing interest in this game to a point where you ether meta ditto, or just quit. Then who will pros be making money off of when people don't wanna deal with this meta crap anymore. It would mostly be tournaments of meta players Vs Meta players. I mean with the results that come in, thats how it has been for the most part.
Meta out of brawl would make a drastic change in tournament placeing with characters and player ranks. And I think some people just dont want that to happen. This is how I see it. Thus the fear to take his azz out. Cause face it, 60% or maybe more play to win now and meta has been the answer for it, check results, nuff said."
I think I'll bring up my opinion again on this and see how people feel about it. or can this actually......be true?
- Too many people use Meta to get them far or get them cash. Even people in the SBR
- It be harder to place for I say 50% of meta players or meta mains.
- The Next best thing would be Snake. And he has bad match ups and can be counterpicked fairly. Even with stages. Going snake decreases the chances of losing cause counterpicking would be more affective.
- People who make money of this game would be at risk to losing to people they would usually not lose too if meta was playable.
- People who win lost of money are now at risk at not winning money. If they do, not as much as before, or just get taking out.
- Player ranks would raise and drop.
There might be more but thats all i got for now. These reasons I see why SBR is afraid to bann meta. We all know what kind of character he is. we all see the broken crap he is on. We all know that brawl is mostly meta and its getting boring and annoying to people. People losing interest in this game to a point where you ether meta ditto, or just quit. Then who will pros be making money off of when people don't wanna deal with this meta crap anymore. It would mostly be tournaments of meta players Vs Meta players. I mean with the results that come in, thats how it has been for the most part.
Meta out of brawl would make a drastic change in tournament placeing with characters and player ranks. And I think some people just dont want that to happen. This is how I see it. Thus the fear to take his azz out. Cause face it, 60% or maybe more play to win now and meta has been the answer for it, check results, nuff said."
I think I'll bring up my opinion again on this and see how people feel about it. or can this actually......be true?
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
This question is just out of blatant curiosity, since I'm also anti-ban (as anyone reading this thread should know by now.)
But to the pros who are anti-ban like Atomsk, whether MK is "too good" or not (he's not), do you think that an MK-less community would be more balanced, have greater variety, be more interesting?
EDIT: M2K wins with whoever the hell he wants. If you guys don't think that M2K could take home just as many tourneys using other characters, you're crazy.
He's by far the most intelligent Smasher we have, and the concept that he uses MK as a crutch to win money is absurd.
But to the pros who are anti-ban like Atomsk, whether MK is "too good" or not (he's not), do you think that an MK-less community would be more balanced, have greater variety, be more interesting?
EDIT: M2K wins with whoever the hell he wants. If you guys don't think that M2K could take home just as many tourneys using other characters, you're crazy.
He's by far the most intelligent Smasher we have, and the concept that he uses MK as a crutch to win money is absurd.
Put them to the test... Come on, I dare you.
MK is beatable, smart MK's are tough to get past, and unholy MKs are just ****ing insane. More people leave their mains to move to a new character that can handle the roster better (including MK), aiding NOT the tier list, but the way Brawl is rolling: more capable characters getting even more capable. I mean, nobody's going to want to choose Link vs MK if it's two equally-skilled players, because MK excels at everything Link doesn't, and also at what Link does.
I voted for the not banning of MK. He's crazy, but what kind of an answer is that, avoiding the character usage, and time spent on learning anti-character (this being anti-MK) approaches altogether? If MK had like 0>death unescapable combos, or a chaingrab on most of the roster, or even a projectile that would enable him camping abilities in case approaching gets too risky, THEN we could talk about some banning options! I will not stoop to erasing a problem rather than try solving it by my own means, and letting other players try to find answers to my own problems.
If the BRoomers clearly avoid ban resolutions (and they have proven to be knowledgeable), and the average gamers DO try banning resolutions (which part of them have yet to prove their brawl skill prowess), then I say OBVIOUSLY choose the smart team's decision. Mayority might be with the non-BRoomers, but the thoughts, predictions, and debates have been with BRoomers all this time, and I'm SURE they have given thought to everything they need to give thought to. And with not enough statistics on MK being overused in tourneys, I don't think his presence is that intimidating...
Just make friends with the good Mk mains or M2K, and mm/friendly him everyday, you'll find a way around MK's attacks sooner or later, I assure you. Strategies may vary with every player, but attacks all carry the same stats, no hitbox is larger for guy A, than guy B... And once you've seen what attacks bother you the most, and played against different MKs and learned different strategies and approaching tactics, you'll find out that the matchups aren't as impossible as you might think they are.
M2K is good because he has been dedicating time to his main since he first laid his character selection icon on him. He hasn't been training through wifi everyday, or sharpening his skills with CPU battles, he's been to tourneys and SEEN people play, PLAYED against people, and LEARNED their approaching tactics -their "mindgames" if you will-, making way for a solid strategy-against-strategies, which i've been making out to be "Don't let them breathe, yet make sure you're smart enough to avoid being suffocated" (or smart rushing, as we call it here in PR). Plus, add a buttload of reaction speed, and you have yourself a monster player, with a monster character. Monster + Monster = your current situation, so try finding a different equation to solve this problem with. Banning will NOT make the problem disappear, it will only make it change in form! You'll see tops move to DDD, Snake or Falco, and soon enough, we'll have the same problem over and over and over... Until we finally decide to unban everyone and be back to the same debates.
Not every character has a decent approach on MK, but who says a character has a decent approach against EVERYBODY? Even MK has tough matchups, even though they're classified as in his favor... And even the other high tiers have things known as "counterpicks", which make them beatable. If MK was TRULY unbeatable or Near-Godlike as so many of you say, he'd be winning ALL the tournaments, and anyone who has a mind for Brawl could place extremely high in any tournament by going MK-only... And that hasn't been the case AT ALL these last months.
I will stand by my DON'T BAN MK point of view, because I KNOW MK can be struck down. It's up to you guys how you want to deal with the competitive scene, be it rushing in with your mains, camping it out with counterpicks, or playing-to-win with the clearest choices of the day. I for one will stick to my mains, because I trust MK is beatable, and proving my point will, of course, further prove my point... What else would I want but that, in an anti-MK debate?
Thank you for your time. ::goes back to lurking::
EDIT and PS: I don't use MK in casuals or tourneys, and I HAVE fought capable MKs, not just button mashers (which are easy to deal with, if you have the right character for the job, of course), so I know what I'm talking about. Obviously I haven't played against top USA MK players, but I DO have an idea of what you guys are talking about.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
I'm forced to question that by virtue of the fact that tourney sets that don't involve MK don't degenerate into that.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
If the top players are TRULY top players, they'd be able to stay at the top whether MK is banned or not...sure character rankings would switch up a bit but the top players will remain the same
Player-1
Smash Legend
first 20 secs of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K41pCe5ORCY
wait whose gimping who?(that was just a joke obviously mk gimps diddy more).
The same thing applies to Diddy though. MK doesn't gimp Diddy at all when the Diddy knows the matchup...
IMO, Diddy goes even with MK on FD, SV, YI, and PS1. BF, it's not quite 55-45 nor 50-50 somewhere in the middle. Every level on the starter/cp list and cp list is 55-45 except for Rainbow Cruise, Japes, and Orpheon which is 60-40.
No Diddy isn't a 'counter' but he is the closest thing to one.
Malva01
Smash Rookie
Diddy can 0-death mk with just Side b
rehab
Smash Journeyman
EL, do you just want MK banned because you hate everything his option-select stands for? I think that's just the game. 4 Sagat isn't that far off, just less stupid in general.
In general: People want MK banned because he's not easy to beat and a lot of people play him? bawwww jesus christ
He has even matchups. If you disagree, argue those matchups. If you don't disagree, all logical reason to ban is gone.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the best character in the game to win so long as he is not on another level entirely. CP system? Who cares, there's nothing wrong with a character that isn't so fundamentally flawed that he forces you to pick up a secondary as a crutch, that should be one thing that all character designs should aspire to. If you don't like or rather can't handle people using that kind of character, the competitive scene is not for you.
In general: People want MK banned because he's not easy to beat and a lot of people play him? bawwww jesus christ
He has even matchups. If you disagree, argue those matchups. If you don't disagree, all logical reason to ban is gone.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the best character in the game to win so long as he is not on another level entirely. CP system? Who cares, there's nothing wrong with a character that isn't so fundamentally flawed that he forces you to pick up a secondary as a crutch, that should be one thing that all character designs should aspire to. If you don't like or rather can't handle people using that kind of character, the competitive scene is not for you.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
There are characters many argue go even with MK, dont go around acting like it's all agreed every match up outside of Wario is 6/4.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Don't get grabbed.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Sure, but Pika Falco and DDD get counterpicked by other high characters who aren't as campy or chaingrab-y.
Falco gets beat by ROB.
Pika gets beat by Marth.
DDD gets beat by Diddy.
Their campy, chaingrab game gets beat to the ground by characters with good rushes. Hell, those three match-ups are probably worse for the character than MK is. And without MK around, we'd be seeing alot more of them. So shouldn't we be seeing more of that now?
Falco is almost even with MK, probably 55:45. It's worse against ROB. So shouldn't he do better in this metagame than the one MK-banned one where ROB is more common?
My thing is that I think the competitive community would have been better off without MK. But I don't think a ban is necessary and I don't think we should.
Falco gets beat by ROB.
Pika gets beat by Marth.
DDD gets beat by Diddy.
Their campy, chaingrab game gets beat to the ground by characters with good rushes. Hell, those three match-ups are probably worse for the character than MK is. And without MK around, we'd be seeing alot more of them. So shouldn't we be seeing more of that now?
Falco is almost even with MK, probably 55:45. It's worse against ROB. So shouldn't he do better in this metagame than the one MK-banned one where ROB is more common?
My thing is that I think the competitive community would have been better off without MK. But I don't think a ban is necessary and I don't think we should.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Top players can stay top players all they want. Thats not the point though. Point is, if meta was out, results would change. And not have one character screw up nearly the whole roster for tournament play. Also counterpicking would be more affective.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Maybe better but he still gets to deal with that fun ZSS match up. =/
Malva01
Smash Rookie
6/4 is not a counter pick. The giants beating the Patriots was considered 65:35.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
Thats why you main all 3 and just ***** counter picks. If you don't feel up to it your not playing to win
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Or just main Meta Knight...
... I did put them to test. Against players like dojo and M2K. I dont get why you quoted my post? o_O
Orion*
Smash Researcher
other than pika vs marth i believe your incorrect on those matchups.
which is also why matchups are irrelevant. everyone thinks of them differently, we cant base anything off of them.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
My comment was about what would happen if he becomes banned
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Opps.......................
Player-1
Smash Legend
but then I'd go Diddy and have an even matchup
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Dark Peach stills raises a good point in that wouldn't we be better off if you had to main three different characters in order to cover all your bases, rather than just having to main one?
TheFast
Smash Lord
Anybody who says taking MK out will give the tourney scene " greater variety" is a scrub. Yes there are good reasons from both the pro-ban and anti-ban side, but this statement is made out of enjoyment of the game. Professional level should have nothing to do with this. Saying it will give the tourney scene "greater variety" is just like say "I hate fighting alot of MKs, so I wanna ban him." The fact about him being overused should not be the problem at hand, other characters are placing high so its possiable. Dont bring scrub evidence into legitimate arguements.
- Status