Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[St. Viers]

dude, seriously, teach a nub how to infinate grab with DDD. They'll beat DK almost all the time.
@shadowlink. Meh, again, that's why people need to come up with a standard, so that even if it's confusing, it's the same confusing thing over and over

 

[salaboB]

ah, well the problem is that %s of skill are all completely unmeasurable, so people who advocate that particular measuring method are idiots =P

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The percent method is simply a measure of how hard the matchup is for the character when used by equally skilled players -- out of 20 matches, 50:50 should be 10 each, 55:45 is 11 to 9, 60:40 is 12 to 8, etc. The benefit it has is that things beyond 70:30 still matter, where the other method that says anything 70:30 or up is basically unwinnable may as well just stop there. The drawback is that what many people label 60:40 may actually end up 70:30 in practice (7 of 10 are won by the advantaged character at equal skill at that point). But it's not measuring % skill, it would be % wins.

Because of so many different ways of approaching it, nobody really knows what 60:40 looks like in practice, basically.

 

[St. Viers]

Ah, I thought you meant the "x toon needs to try y% harder against z toon to win.

The other method is simple, it just requires data farming ^_^

 

[salaboB]

Ah, I thought you meant the "x toon needs to try y% harder against z toon to win.

Oh right, make that three different ways people use of saying what X:X means.

 

[Banee]

Okay, I doubt this has been posted yet, and heck it may not even be relevant at all but i'm posting it anyway. I frankly dont care how the banning of metaknight goes, one way or another, but this seems to be fairly analogous.

Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD remix has been out for less than one month, yet they are seriously considering banning a character. As i'm sure everyone is aware, Akuma from the original version of this game was broken beyond belief. He was immediately banned with nearly no controversy. However, in hd remix, the designers specifically worked to bring him down to a balanced level. Despite this, it seems the community is strongly considering banning him.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255

2009 can be a great year for tournament HDR, but it will be wasted if Akuma is not banned. There is no reason not to use him in any match up and if you go up against an Akuma, you are at a disadvantage if you don't counter with him. His normals are better than everyone elses, his fireballs are better than everyone elses, his dps, hurricane kicks, and super are better than everyone elses. It doesn't take months to figure this **** out. If he is banned, tournaments will be fun and exciting. If not, every time Akuma wins, which he will often, it will be with an asterisk as nohoho said. If he is not banned soon, we risk losing credibility as a community for not being able to detect early on what is already so obvious to some.

In a tournament, we are the fighters, and the characters we choose are our weapons. Akuma is the equivalent of a machine gun, while everyone else is an assortment of swords, clubs, and whips. Take out the machine gun and the fights and outcomes will be exciting. Leave it in and they become boring, repetitive, and predictable.

The person who wrote this just won SRK's very first HD remix tournament, by quite a large margin. If you're interested, here is a link to the finals match, you can find the other videos on the related videos section: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnDHo7ccO-U&feature=related

Based on Damdai's description, this seems almost identicle to whats being called against metaknight.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The matches look rather close to me. It isn't as if he got walled to death by akuma.
Meh I haven't gotten the game yet so im probably off

 

[kirbstir]

The problem with your argument is that nobody has proven MK is as broken as Akuma appears to be. Therefore, it is really just an anecdote from another community that may or may not have any similarities with the current argument.

 

[Banee]

The problem with your argument is that nobody has proven MK is as broken as Akuma appears to be. Therefore, it is really just an anecdote from another community that may or may not have any similarities with the current argument.

I'm not making an argument. I want to clear this up before anyone else assumes the same thing. I'm just pointing out a situation that is nearly identical in another community. Take from that what you will.

It does appear that they are making almost the same case for Akuma as I have seen for MK: That he is always the best character. Bear in mind, though, Akuma hasnt been banned yet and there is no clear indication that he is going to be banned. They are still discussing it.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I can see the similarity, but thank god Meta isn't THAT broken, or there would hardly be a discussion on if he would be banned or not, it'd be a straight cut.

 

[Banee]

I can see the similarity, but thank god Meta isn't THAT broken, or there would hardly be a discussion on if he would be banned or not, it'd be a straight cut.

Have you played HD remix? He's not that broken at all, although it might not be apparent to me because I dont play at the same level the guys taking place in the argument do.

For those of you ,like the guy I just quoted, who see the word "Akuma", skip the rest of the post, and hit the reply button: This is not the same Akuma that is legendary for his brokenness in the original game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Indeed there are a number of changes. For one his legs are not invincible and he does not appear to be capable of the same setups he was capable of in the past.

The trajectory of the aerial fireball was changed as well, eliminating the possibility of walling the opponent indefinitely and chipping them to death.

I like this variation of Akuma ^_^.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Have you played HD remix? He's not that broken at all, although it might not be apparent to me because I dont play at the same level the guys taking place in the argument do.

For those of you ,like the guy I just quoted, who see the word "Akuma", skip the rest of the post, and hit the reply button: This is not the same Akuma that is legendary for his brokenness in the original game.

No I played the demo and don't enjoy it really. Just from that argument you posted he seemed hella' broken still.
Also in response to the second part, I read the whole post.
I played 3rd Strike a lot and mained Akuma, and he's not all that great in 3rd strike, compared to his SF2 self.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No I played the demo and don't enjoy it really. Just from that argument you posted he seemed hella' broken still.

Play the game or at least look at the video.
then compare him to SF2 akuma.

stuff

No one cares about 3rd strike at the moment.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

Meta the Pink-Shoed Fighter
Had some very mighty moves
and if you ever saw them
you would even say they are broken
All of the other players
used to john and call him cheap
They never let poor meta
join in any tourney games

(Sorry, the christmas trouble f***ed my brain.)

 

[1048576]

Lol you suck at poetry/song-making

 

[Santi]

TL>MK

10advantages

 

[1048576]

Dude, we all saw what Dojo did to you.

 

[Santi]

Dude, we all saw what Dojo did to you.

How many months ago?
=)

EDIT: and I said TL>MK
not Santi>Dojo

 

[Master Raven]

If Akuma is still stupidly strong in SF2HD, can't he just make a patch? At the very least Sirlin cares enough about the game that he'd be willing to patch the game if there were any imbalances I'd bet. Heck even though I'm anti-ban at this point, I would certainly like it if Nintendo actually bothered to patch Brawl to balance MK.

 

[Eddie G]

TL>MK

10advantages

Haha, agreed.

 

[St. Viers]

Master Raven: If you look at Sirlin's second essay n the matter (found from a link on the shoryuken page that was posted), you'll see that there are some things he is considering changing, even though he states that he doesn't believe Akuma is broken as a character--just some attributes that he hadn't accounted for, and that no one but that one dude has figured out how to use correctly.

 

[Banee]

If Akuma is still stupidly strong in SF2HD, can't he just make a patch? At the very least Sirlin cares enough about the game that he'd be willing to patch the game if there were any imbalances I'd bet. Heck even though I'm anti-ban at this point, I would certainly like it if Nintendo actually bothered to patch Brawl to balance MK.

Sirlin no longer works for Backbone entertainment, the designers of the game. While he was the lead designer, I dont think he has the power to make choices about what to patch now. I could be mistaken about that, but I believe he cut all of his ties to backbone after the game was finished.

Also to the guy above me, according to Sirlin, part of the problem stems from some sort of bug. You see, the first few frames of a jump are suppose to be immune to Akuma's raging demon (his super, if you watch the videos its when he lifts one leg up and slides toward the opponent to throw them with images of himself trailing behind), but they apparently arent. This means that you cannot block low his air fireballs or his super becomes unavoidable. Which in turn, means that you have to predict Akuma MUCH better, since if you block high, expecting an air fireball, and he instead does a crossup cancelled into a sweep, it will hit you (whereas if you could block his air fireballs low this wouldnt be a problem). Basically it gives him way more options, and if you guess wrong (block low expecting a crossup) he gets a free super on you (His super is about 40% of your health).

 

[salaboB]

Also to the guy above me, according to Sirlin, part of the problem stems from some sort of bug. You see, the first few frames of a jump are suppose to be immune to Akuma's raging demon (his super, if you watch the videos its when he lifts one leg up and slides toward the opponent to throw them with images of himself trailing behind), but they apparently arent. This means that you cannot block low his air fireballs or his super becomes unavoidable. Which in turn, means that you have to predict Akuma MUCH better, since if you block high, expecting an air fireball, and he instead does a crossup cancelled into a sweep, it will hit you (whereas if you could block his air fireballs low this wouldnt be a problem). Basically it gives him way more options, and if you guess wrong (block low expecting a crossup) he gets a free super on you (His super is about 40% of your health).

Significantly more options for how to approach someone than they have against him causes a problem...

Hmmmmmm...

 

[Banee]

Significantly more options for how to approach someone than they have against him causes a problem...

Yes, that seems to be a large part of the pro-ban argument. I'll reiterate, though, that the debate is still going and nothing has been decided yet. I think it will be interesting to see if their decision regarding Akuma matches the SBR's decision regarding Metaknight, considering the arguments used for both are nearly identical.

 

[The Real Inferno]

It's unfortunate that the bug took out the failsafe on Akuma's Raging Demon. It was purportedly one of the hardest things to balance in the game outside of Akuma's Air Hadoukens and Fei Long.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

I wonder why the DDD infinite pro-ban side is not much bigger then the MK one in this thread - banning a character is something completely different to me (much "more") than banning a certain technique which is obviously broken and obviously not intended by the creators.

And sorry for the poem.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Actually I find it interesting how the pro-ban side of the infinite looks alot like the anti-ban side on Meta Knight. It's like everyone switches places.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

It seems to depend largely on the point as how important you see the so-called "counterpick"-system.

 

[salaboB]

It seems to depend largely on the point as how important you see the so-called "counterpick"-system.

Not entirely.

Without counterpicking allowed, MK is still the smartest choice as your main.