Should everyone have a pocket space animal?

[Divinokage]

Why is it strictly pocket spacey?

Why can't pocket Sheik work?

I didn't say strictly spacies, just a top tier pocket.

 

[Thor]

imo, unless you play a spacie, in almost every situation it's probably both. I recently started playing Falco for exactly this reason: I hate losing for any reason other than "I didn't play as well as the other guy". It's harder to be distracted by johning when you simply have no legitimate johns.

Playing Bowser (and then Jiggs) for as long as I did was a huge impediment to my progress as a player. I hate to see others making the same mistake. For many people, it's probably better to learn a good character first, and then branch out if they feel the need. ymmv

I've seen people get wrecked by RRR (strong Kirby main) regardless of who they play [and then some try to pick a spacie and get bodied even harder]. Unless one is at the top of their metagame or fighting a very top top player, it's really always them, not the character, and the character probably doesn't help, because they could just be a better player and win. As an example, I think Axe could have character johns, but if you're not Axe and you're playing Pikachu, you could be playing Pikachu better [and I'm pretty sure even Axe is still improving]. So really, it's almost always the player, with a select few being able to blame it on the character [and if Leffen/PPMD loses, for one of them it HAS to be the player, because from Fox/Falco there's nowhere else to go - though I don't know if you rank Fox or Falco first (since some think Falco > Fox, others think Fox > Falco, I'm just including both these players since they each main one of them)].

That said, many people can get wins when they otherwise couldn't by just learning to play Fox/Falco as well as they can play their current main. So in that sense it's the character, but the loss really is because they weren't a better player, as then they wouldn't need to switch mains [again, this doesn't apply to those at the very top of their character's metagame/play ability].

Also when fighting a Samus, you could be Falco or you could be playing Marth - in that case, even if it's not you, you could be playing a character better suited to the MU instead of a spacie [as PPMD did against HugS at Apex 2014]. But I think that's rather nit-picky of me to point out.

 

[Divinokage]

I've seen people get wrecked by RRR (strong Kirby main) regardless of who they play [and then some try to pick a spacie and get bodied even harder]. Unless one is at the top of their metagame or fighting a very top top player, it's really always them, not the character, and the character probably doesn't help, because they could just be a better player and win. As an example, I think Axe could have character johns, but if you're not Axe and you're playing Pikachu, you could be playing Pikachu better [and I'm pretty sure even Axe is still improving]. So really, it's almost always the player, with a select few being able to blame it on the character [and if Leffen/PPMD loses, for one of them it HAS to be the player, because from Fox/Falco there's nowhere else to go - though I don't know if you rank Fox or Falco first (since some think Falco > Fox, others think Fox > Falco, I'm just including both these players since they each main one of them)].

That said, many people can get wins when they otherwise couldn't by just learning to play Fox/Falco as well as they can play their current main. So in that sense it's the character, but the loss really is because they weren't a better player, as then they wouldn't need to switch mains [again, this doesn't apply to those at the very top of their character's metagame/play ability].

Also when fighting a Samus, you could be Falco or you could be playing Marth - in that case, even if it's not you, you could be playing a character better suited to the MU instead of a spacie [as PPMD did against HugS at Apex 2014]. But I think that's rather nit-picky of me to point out.

Pika also punishes spacies really hard with guaranteed setups which definitely helps him to get good rankings. But I mean I thought we were talking about actually winning large tournaments. I can't really see it happening with a mid tier which is why you need a pocket top tier for certain players.

 

[Bones0]

imo, unless you play a spacie, in almost every situation it's probably both. I recently started playing Falco for exactly this reason: I hate losing for any reason other than "I didn't play as well as the other guy". It's harder to be distracted by johning when you simply have no legitimate johns.

You are just assuming Puff is bad enough that it gives you the right to john about losing with her. At the end of the day, her matchups are just your opinion, and for those of us who were around when everyone was talking about how broken and OP Jiggs was, your claims are just as ridiculous as the opposite claims were in '08. You say the metagame caught up to Puff and Peach, and yeah, that's totally possible. But the metagame didn't just stop with Fox and Falco on top. The game continues to develop just as it has in the past, and the "best character" trend will continue to evolve. Wife described this effect much more fluently than I ever could:

 

[Frost | Odds]

You are just assuming Puff is bad enough that it gives you the right to john about losing with her. At the end of the day, her matchups are just your opinion, and for those of us who were around when everyone was talking about how broken and OP Jiggs was, your claims are just as ridiculous as the opposite claims were in '08. You say the metagame caught up to Puff and Peach, and yeah, that's totally possible. But the metagame didn't just stop with Fox and Falco on top. The game continues to develop just as it has in the past

... With Fox and Falco continuing to get better and better, yes.

Just as it becomes more and more obvious that you've never played Puff. =/

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Why is it strictly pocket spacey?

Why can't pocket Sheik work?

I said pocket spacey because that's what I see most in tournament play and Smashfests. Plus they are the top two characters in the tier list and are highly represented in top 3 finishes in tournaments. Luigi is my main with Ganon as a secondary. I was just curious if having a Fox or Falco in your lineup was necessary

 

[Bones0]

... With Fox and Falco continuing to get better and better, yes.

Just as it becomes more and more obvious that you've never played Puff. =/

Fox and Falco are not the only characters getting better, and you can't possibly assert that you KNOW other characters won't improve faster.

It's becoming more and more obvious you think your experience as a Puff player makes your opinion law when it comes to how good Puff is. Not trying to call you out, but do you even have any notable placings with any character? I have no problem arguing with people who aren't good at playing Melee but may have a good understanding of it, but since your entire argument seems to revolve around the fact that you used to play Puff, you must have some way of demonstrating you were any good with her because I'm starting to feel like I'm actually better with Puff anyway (again, I'd rather not use that metric for credibility, but it's the only thing you've offered).

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fox and Falco are not the only characters getting better, and you can't possibly assert that you KNOW other characters won't improve faster.

Only in the same way that I know that there's no such thing as unicorns. All the available evidence suggests it, and there's zero reason to think they'll be supplanted any time soon.

Obviously, I'm putting my money where my mouth is here.

It's becoming more and more obvious you think your experience as a Puff player makes your opinion law when it comes to how good Puff is.

It doesn't hurt, but no - any good puff player will tell you that she only wins according to the mistakes of her opponent, in pretty much the same fashion as the low tiers. It's impossible for her to win against Fox specifically, without outreading and outplaying him to a degree unlike any other MU occurring among the 'top' tiers. That only two Puff players have ever done terribly well on the national level (and one of them switched to spacies in a hurry) speaks volumes. Pointing at HBox's play and saying that puff is obviously good is on precisely the same level of inanity as doing the same with RRR and Kirby, or Sethlon and Roy. The conclusion may be true, but it has nothing to do with the premise.

Not trying to call you out, but do you even have any notable placings with any character?

Of course you're not.

I went from being nobody locally to having consistent top 8 placings at locals and regionals by playing about 50/50 puff and bowser within a few months, before having to quit for a long time due to a hand injury. During that interim, I've studied endless amounts of videos, posts by top players, and other analysis. I used to be the #1 player of an RTS called Supreme Commander, and a top player of about a half dozen other games since; and have $ winnings well into 4 digits to back it up.

I'm not a very good Smash player - not yet, I haven't had the practice time yet. But I know how to improve at games, and I know how to analyze them. I've taken top 4 at a few regionals in PM, though I realize that doesn't mean a hell of a lot.

I have no problem arguing with people who aren't good at playing Melee but may have a good understanding of it, but since your entire argument seems to revolve around the fact that you used to play Puff, you must have some way of demonstrating you were any good with her because I'm starting to feel like I'm actually better with Puff anyway (again, I'd rather not use that metric for credibility, but it's the only thing you've offered).

I still get better results (in friendlies, anyway) with Puff than with Sheik or Falco, because I don't have to think about tech stuff with her, and can focus on what I'm better at: getting in my opponent's head. I fully expect that to change the instant my Falco tech becomes solid enough that I don't have to think about it at all.

Until recently, I shot most of my Falco lasers the wrong way in the most embarrassing possible fashion. My execution really left something to be desired.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Puff is bad, as such - only that she's dramatically overhyped. She dies incredibly early, moves super slowly, and suffers a distinct lack of huge disjointed and/or lingering hitboxes of the type that are actually able to hit Fox. She's very dependent on her grab game, but her grabs require hard reads in order to connect with the space animals, and even then she's dependent on the spacie player having bad DI in order to get the kill. Her matchups with Sheik and Marth are also pretty bad, though most Sheik and Marth players don't really bother learning the matchup, and the perception ends up being that those characters lose to Puff.

Jiggs just suffers from the exact same problem as Bowser: she doesn't win when she plays well. She only wins when she plays well and her opponent plays badly. She may be a suitable pocket character for some matchups due to her lack of required tech skill (other than rest setups which require insane confidence and reflexes), but suffers so badly in the Fox matchup that I regard soloing her as about as viable as soloing Pikachu. Axe can do it, why can't you?

 

[Bones0]

Only in the same way that I know that there's no such thing as unicorns. All the available evidence suggests it, and there's zero reason to think they'll be supplanted any time soon.

Obviously, I'm putting my money where my mouth is here.


It doesn't hurt, but no - any good puff player will tell you that she only wins according to the mistakes of her opponent, in pretty much the same fashion as the low tiers. It's impossible for her to win against Fox specifically, without outreading and outplaying him to a degree unlike any other MU occurring among the 'top' tiers. That only two Puff players have ever done terribly well on the national level (and one of them switched to spacies in a hurry) speaks volumes. Pointing at HBox's play and saying that puff is obviously good is on precisely the same level of inanity as doing the same with RRR and Kirby, or Sethlon and Roy. The conclusion may be true, but it has nothing to do with the premise.

"All the available evidence" suggests Fox and Falco are unbeatable? What evidence are you talking about? Only a select few players have won on a national level, and compared to the sheer number of players who main Fox or Falco, they are relatively unlikely to win, let alone be impossible to overcome because of the metagame. By any conceivable objective, Falco specifically has been on the decline. PP is increasingly using his Marth secondary to great success, and the only other Falcos placing decently are Westballz and Zhu. The only Falcos in top 32 at Evo 2014 were PP and Westballz. There were 3 Peaches (Armada, MacD, and Bladewise) as well as 3 Ice Climbers (Fly, Chu, and Nintendude). I wouldn't at all use this to say Peach or ICs is better than Falco, but at the same time, you cannot insist that ALL results indicate spacies are improving faster than everyone else and that the trend will continue for all eternity.

The rest of your argument is mainly your own personal theory with no real basis for it. The idea that Puff can only win when her opponents make mistakes is ludicrous because the same could be said about any character. Getting hit or out-spaced can be considered a "mistake", and everyone makes mistakes because no one can predict their opponent 100% of the time. If you look at REALITY, Hungrybox is capable of taking sets off of ANY player on the planet with ALL Puff, and he has said as much himself in his post-Evo interview. If there isn't a single player who can't be beat with Puff, then what's the problem with maining her?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

So kinda what I'm getting at is if you play a top tier character then you shouldn't need a spacey but if you play a low tier character then you should get a pocket top tier?

EDIT: This assumes you want to do well in the tournament scene

 

[Frost | Odds]

"All the available evidence" suggests Fox and Falco are unbeatable?

Where did I say they're unbeatable?

Where did I even imply that?

I don't understand why you're so determined to **** on me. Please stop.

It's clear this is going nowhere, as whatever I say will just be completely ignored in favor of your preconceptions. I'm sorry that I've apparently failed so utterly to communicate that you are unable to read my posts at all.

 

[Bones0]

Where did I say they're unbeatable?

Where did I even imply that?

I don't understand why you're so determined to **** on me. Please stop.

It's clear this is going nowhere, as whatever I say will just be completely ignored in favor of your preconceptions. I'm sorry that I've apparently failed so utterly to communicate that you are unable to read my posts at all.

Your very first post in this thread:

If you want to ever win a tournament, you pretty much need to play a spacie, or at least Marth or Sheik. Not 100%, but exceptions are extraordinarily rare.

If winning is less important to you than some other goal, then obviously anything can work.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you want to ever win a tournament, you pretty much need to play a spacie, or at least Marth or Sheik. Not 100%, but exceptions are extraordinarily rare.

Yeah, I think we're done here.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I think we're done here.

You're right, I should have specified you think they are "pretty much" unbeatable.

 

[Thor]

without outreading and outplaying him to a degree unlike any other MU occurring among the 'top' tiers

Captain Falcon and Falco.

Ice Climbers and Peach.

moves super slowly

Jump. Also Rollout.

suffers a distinct lack of huge disjointed and/or lingering hitboxes of the type that are actually able to hit Fox

Bair.

Her matchups with Sheik and Marth are also pretty bad, though most Sheik and Marth players don't really bother learning the matchup, and the perception ends up being that those characters lose to Puff.

Why does M2K not use either of these characters, but uses a pocket Fox? And still will lose to Hbox???

Most of these responses are sarcastic, but some of the things you say just don't sit well with me at all. She can't be any worse than Captain Falcon, and is probably better by a considerable margin.

So kinda what I'm getting at is if you play a top tier character then you shouldn't need a spacey but if you play a low tier character then you should get a pocket top tier?

EDIT: This assumes you want to do well in the tournament scene

You can do well in the tournament scene if you just vastly outplay everyone else and/or people suck at the MU - see RRR and Kirby (4th on the MN Melee PR and with good reason - though if like 7 top players moved in he would fall off the top - he IS playing Kirby...).

But if you are of comparable skill level, then yes, get a pocket top tier. Or main your top tier and play your not-top tier for needed jank/unfamiliar MUs because your opponent WILL know the top tier MU and might not know the lower-tier MU/because it's fun [I do this, but I enjoy Falco which is probably why].

 

[Frost | Odds]

You're right, I should have specified you think they are "pretty much" unbeatable.

Also not remotely what I said, but sure. You're apparently psychic, so I'll take your word for it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Captain Falcon and Falco.

Not nearly as bad as Fox/Jiggs, sorry.

Ice Climbers and Peach.

IC's are top tier now?

Jump. Also Rollout.

Yeah, putting yourself above Fox is always a great plan, especially as a floatie.

Bair.

Not that disjointed, and also rendered mostly irrelevant by Fox's speed. Have you ever played Jiggs?

Why does M2K not use either of these characters, but uses a pocket Fox? And still will lose to Hbox???

Because he's terrible at the matchup. I was able to consistently get him down to 1 or 2 stocks, and my jiggs sucks hard.

Most of these responses are sarcastic, but some of the things you say just don't sit well with me at all. She can't be any worse than Captain Falcon, and is probably better by a considerable margin.

Of course she's better than CF in a lot of matchups - maybe most of them. This does not render moot the fact that the Fox matchup is nearly insurmountable.

You can do well in the tournament scene if you just vastly outplay everyone else and/or people suck at the MU - see RRR and Kirby (4th on the MN Melee PR and with good reason - though if like 7 top players moved in he would fall off the top - he IS playing Kirby...).

At a certain level, 'vastly outplaying everyone' is no longer viable. I got similar results by playing Bowser against the local scene - does that mean Bowser is viable, or does it mean that the locals sucked at the matchup?

 

[Thor]

Not nearly as bad as Fox/Jiggs, sorry.

You must be joking... that MU is complete garbage. Fox/Jiggs is nowhere NEAR that bad. Jiggs can actually recover, and her grab game followups don't just rely on tech-chasing up until very high percents. Even if Jiggs has a terrible neutral game, so does Falcon - I'm reducing it down, but essentially, Jiggs would need a SIGNFICANTLY worse neutral game against Fox than Falcon has against Falco for this to be even as bad as Falco/Falcon is.

IC's are top tier now?

I can get a photo of the tier list if you need, but ICs occupy the S tier in the 8th position. So yes, they are [there's S, A, B, and F tiers now].

Yeah, putting yourself above Fox is always a great plan, especially as a floatie.

Short-hop. Fox has to duck if he wants to be below you.

Not that disjointed, and also rendered mostly irrelevant by Fox's speed. Have you ever played Jiggs?

Yeah, bair is fine. Also I'm pretty sure Jigg's bair hits like a full Jiggs length behind her - I believe it outranges Marth's fair... It's also not irrelevant, I'm pretty sure Hbox lands plenty of bairs in his matches vs Mango lol.

And I've played Jiggs - Jiggs is better than you credit her for.

Because he's terrible at the matchup. I was able to consistently get him down to 1 or 2 stocks, and my jiggs sucks hard.

Footage needed. Also I sincerely doubt M2K is bad at the MU, unless some other people want to explain why.

Of course she's better than CF in a lot of matchups - maybe most of them. This does not render moot the fact that the Fox matchup is nearly insurmountable.

If the MU is "nearly insurmountable" then Hbox must be the best player in the world by a wide margin, since he has been a gimp away [with Mango offstage already] from taking sets off Mango, has 4-stocked Mango at least once, AND has beaten Mango in a few sets - and he seems to usually take a game or two in a Bo5. I think you grossly exaggerate how hard the MU is.

At a certain level, 'vastly outplaying everyone' is no longer viable. I got similar results by playing Bowser against the local scene - does that mean Bowser is viable, or does it mean that the locals sucked at the matchup?

It works for RRR up to the top player's level, more or less, and the OP never talked about how competitive the local scene is, so it may very well be sufficient for them.

It means the locals sucked at the Bowser MU.

 

[rideordiemynig]

listen up da only reazon u would need a pocket spacy is if you a str8 *****. and aint nobody give a damm about hbox

 

[Frost | Odds]

You must be joking... that MU is complete garbage. Fox/Jiggs is nowhere NEAR that bad. Jiggs can actually recover, and her grab game followups don't just rely on tech-chasing up until very high percents. Even if Jiggs has a terrible neutral game, so does Falcon - I'm reducing it down, but essentially, Jiggs would need a SIGNFICANTLY worse neutral game against Fox than Falcon has against Falco for this to be even as bad as Falco/Falcon is.

Jiggs would murder to have tech chase options against Fox. Instead, she needs to either get stray hits against Fox until kill%, or get a rest setup that it's easy for Fox to DI out of. Falcon is able to capitalize on openings a huge amount harder in his respective matchup.

Regardless, Falcon is indeed terrible against Falco. Given that my main point is "spacies are oppressively good", I see no need to contest the matter.

I can get a photo of the tier list if you need, but ICs occupy the S tier in the 8th position. So yes, they are [there's S, A, B, and F tiers now].

Whatever you say, dude. By this logic we might as well call Doc and Ganon "top" tiers. Why not?

Short-hop. Fox has to duck if he wants to be below you.

He does not have to duck to kill you with an usmash at 45%.

And I've played Jiggs - Jiggs is better than you credit her for.

Footage needed.

Footage needed. Also I sincerely doubt M2K is bad at the MU, unless some other people want to explain why.

I have no idea why, I only know that I had bizarrely good results against him in friendlies after a while, and that he never stopped whining about how OP Jiggs is (while, you'll note, consistently refusing to play her in tournament). We played for about 6 hours one night before I had to drive him to the airport the next morning, it was mostly towards the end that I started figuring him out.

If the MU is "nearly insurmountable" then Hbox must be the best player in the world by a wide margin, since he has been a gimp away [with Mango offstage already] from taking sets off Mango, has 4-stocked Mango at least once, AND has beaten Mango in a few sets - and he seems to usually take a game or two in a Bo5. I think you grossly exaggerate how hard the MU is.

Maybe. It seems to me more likely that there's just some variance in the matchup. It's not surprising that even top players would drop a game or two while remembering how to play against Puff and HBox in particular (stuff like the DI, not jumping into her nair, respecting the bair, etc), before crushing her the rest of the set.

Don't get me wrong - Jiggs has great gimmicks. Unfortunately for her, when and how her opponent adapts to them is utterly beyond her control. I'm also about the farthest possible thing from an HBox fanboy; but he really is unbelievably good.

It means the locals sucked at the Bowser MU.

Exactly.

I'll be shocked beyond belief if Jiggs ever wins another national. Even if she does, we know the name of the player that'll do it. That says enough, I think.

EDIT: Someone made a good point about Marth further up - he's got at least even MUs against pretty much everyone relevant in the current metagame (there's not many Sheiks around, they tend to get scrubbed out by spacies). He's pretty good too.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Jiggs would murder to have tech chase options against Fox. Instead, she needs to either get stray hits against Fox until kill%, or get a rest setup that it's easy for Fox to DI out of. Falcon is able to capitalize on openings a huge amount harder in his respective matchup.

Regardless, Falcon is indeed terrible against Falco. Given that my main point is "spacies are oppressively good", I see no need to contest the matter.


Whatever you say, dude. By this logic we might as well call Doc and Ganon "top" tiers. Why not?


He does not have to duck to kill you with an usmash at 45%.


Footage needed.


I have no idea why, I only know that I had bizarrely good results against him in friendlies after a while, and that he never stopped whining about how OP Jiggs is (while, you'll note, consistently refusing to play her in tournament). We played for about 6 hours one night before I had to drive him to the airport the next morning, it was mostly towards the end that I started figuring him out.


Maybe. It seems to me more likely that there's just some variance in the matchup. It's not surprising that even top players would drop a game or two while remembering how to play against Puff and HBox in particular (stuff like the DI, not jumping into her nair, respecting the bair, etc), before crushing her the rest of the set.

Don't get me wrong - Jiggs has great gimmicks. Unfortunately for her, when and how her opponent adapts to them is utterly beyond her control. I'm also about the farthest possible thing from an HBox fanboy; but he really is unbelievably good.


Exactly.

I'll be shocked beyond belief if Jiggs ever wins another national. Even if she does, we know the name of the player that'll do it. That says enough, I think.

EDIT: Someone made a good point about Marth further up - he's got at least even MUs against pretty much everyone relevant in the current metagame (there's not many Sheiks around, they tend to get scrubbed out by spacies). He's pretty good too.

So you're saying that if a spacey wins said national we won't know it's mang0?
Spaceys are probably the best characters. This is not the reason they are most played though. The reason they're most played is because they're good fun characters.

Puff is amazing as a character just as well. You can't combo her, she's pretty good at taking away space in the air and as long as she doesn't touch the blastzones she can pretty much always come back. Yeah if you get an upsmash as fox she dies at 45% but this is incredibly dangerous for the fox, if he misses he dies at simular % to rest and unlike against other characters he can't combo into it.

As for how oppresive spaceys are, the most oppressing character in this game is sheik. Just because her matchup versus lowtiers is just too good. They are far from the only characters that force switches, I even know of a certain peach player that switches characters not to the best fox but to the best puff.

Until there actually is a fox that wins all the inter/nationals he attents for a year in a row. (or only loses to fellow spaceys) I feel it's safe to assume spaceys are beatable. (not balanced or anything just beatable)

 

[Frost | Odds]

So you're saying that if a spacey wins said national we won't know it's mang0?

Could also be Leffen, M2K, PP, Hax. Hell, maybe Fiction or some thus-far unknown Fox or Falco could do it.

Puff is amazing as a character just as well. You can't combo her

I probably should've stopped reading here. Fox and Falco can both combo her to death%, or near to it.

As for how oppresive spaceys are, the most oppressing character in this game is sheik. Just because her matchup versus lowtiers is just too good.

If we're going by number of characters invalidated, then certainly! Realistically though, I think it's more reasonable to look at the relative strength of characters invalidated.

They are far from the only characters that force switches, I even know of a certain peach player that switches characters not to the best fox but to the best puff.

Yet, they are the only characters that force switches and have no bad matchups themselves.

Until there actually is a fox that wins all the inter/nationals he attents for a year in a row. (or only loses to fellow spaceys) I feel it's safe to assume spaceys are beatable. (not balanced or anything just beatable)

Again, I never said they weren't. I don't know why that is so difficult. =/

 

[JKJ]

How are people arguing this?

IF AND ONLY IF you feel you need a pocket secondary, a top tier that balances out your character's hard matchups is ideal. Easiest to learn to play technically: Sheik and Jiggs (the latter being obscenely more easy). Jiggs players, get a Marth to deal with Fox. Samus players, get a fox to deal with floaties. Jiggs still doesn't lose to Fox that badly, and Jiggs players complaining about her viability is downright silly. Get over yourselves. The only players with the legitimacy to say that they need a top tier secondary to win are aMSa and Axe, and guess what? They're not saying that. They're too busy outplaying and taking sets and games off the Melee gods.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

17467009, member: 225863"]Could also be Leffen, M2K, PP, Hax. Hell, maybe Fiction or some thus-far unknown Fox or Falco could do it.

I probably should've stopped reading here. Fox and Falco can both combo her to death%, or near to it.

If we're going by number of characters invalidated, then certainly! Realistically though, I think it's more reasonable to look at the relative strength of characters invalidated.

Yet, they are the only characters that force switches and have no bad matchups themselves.


Again, I never said they weren't. I don't know why that is so difficult. =/[/quote]
Leffen (at least now) isn't on the same level as mango, m2k isn't a spacey and if we're going with "he mains all chars" he's just as likely to win as puff, Hax isn't consistent yet and I assume he won't be for a while. For Fiction see Leffen. This leaves as it stands now mango for fox and pp for falco. (Outside of someone leveling up but anyone on any char can do that)

Puff can get comboed with the proper setup, getting said setup is way to risky to go for outside of missed rest. Puff doesn't get comboed to death just because her weight is stupid, it's also cause if you mess up slightly (which with the opponent di ing properly is really really easy) you die yourself. It also isn't the only thing making her good.

Now for the relative strenght of invalidated characters, sheik stops marth falcon chu where fox "stops" puff ics falcon. (Would include peach but armada still keeps up on highest level and the not armada peaches place pretty good too) I don't see how sheik stopping those 3 is so much better especially considering she does it with far less effort.

Next up are bad spacey matchups, marth on fd, sheik on fountain, I wanna say chu on fountain, depending on the stage the other spacey. Before you say these aren't enough matchups I'll just say sheik doesn't have too many either.

I don't see why you have a problem with the spaceys. They don't have anything the other toptiers don't in ruining lowtiers time to shine and the only thing you came with is their lack of bad matchup which isn't even a bad thing. (It would be if they didn't have even matchups either but not like this)

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Spacies... ummm....

 

[KirbyKaze]

Please just let this thread die. This stopped being about character potential and became more about what Odds can and cannot do a while ago...

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, gotta say that Odds comes off more jaded than a Falcon main. And I've met some pretty jaded Falcon mains in my time.

 

[Thor]

Jiggs would murder to have tech chase options against Fox. Instead, she needs to either get stray hits against Fox until kill%, or get a rest setup that it's easy for Fox to DI out of. Falcon is able to capitalize on openings a huge amount harder in his respective matchup.

DI chase on uthrow - uthrow -> aerial is a thing, last I checked - and if there are platforms, tech chase to rest if you read the roll. Falcon doesn't have NEARLY those options, he can only force a tech chase until above 110% if they DI forward and if he guesses wrong, he got no extra percent from his uthrow.

Like, go watch Hbox - he gets a lot of mileage out of uthrow combos:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDE0T0FN7W0
Less than 40 seconds in he gets a well DI'd uthrow, but gets a uair out of it and forces Mango to tech. This happens on various uthrows throughout the match.

Falco doesn't really oppress Puff either. And you tried to say "Fox/Puff is the worst by a lot" and I offered a strict counterexample - don't try to weasel your way out now, or perhaps this is better stated as

Whatever you say, dude. By this logic we might as well call Doc and Ganon "top" tiers. Why not?

No it's actually a thing: http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113/

Read the letters on the side - ICs are bottom of S (But bottom of top tier is still top tier), Doc is top of mid tier (A tier), then Pikachu, then Samus, then Ganondorf (mid tier).

Or you can continue to make facetious and false statements, your pick.

He does not have to duck to kill you with an usmash at 45%.

Are you jumping into partially/fully charged usmash on Yoshi's or something? That probably KOs off the top platform but... it needs to be at least 60% for that to KO if you're on a normal stage ground level.

Footage needed.

I have no idea why, I only know that I had bizarrely good results against him in friendlies after a while, and that he never stopped whining about how OP Jiggs is (while, you'll note, consistently refusing to play her in tournament). We played for about 6 hours one night before I had to drive him to the airport the next morning, it was mostly towards the end that I started figuring him out.

Oh the hypocrisy...

He's not that good at Jiggs from what I've seen (Watched versus Armada's Peach, his Jiggs was beaten rather solidly). It's kind of like watching his Falco - it's probably good but against other players it just looks bizarre (And not that effective).

Maybe. It seems to me more likely that there's just some variance in the matchup. It's not surprising that even top players would drop a game or two while remembering how to play against Puff and HBox in particular (stuff like the DI, not jumping into her nair, respecting the bair, etc), before crushing her the rest of the set.
Don't get me wrong - Jiggs has great gimmicks. Unfortunately for her, when and how her opponent adapts to them is utterly beyond her control. I'm also about the farthest possible thing from an HBox fanboy; but he really is unbelievably good.

Hbox is almost NEVER crushed in a set. I also seriously doubt Mango somehow forgets how to play against the best Puff in the world, or that M2K the robot forgets how to beat Puff - the fact that uthrows are also usually DI'd perfectly throughout the match except for a trip up here or there suggests that they know how to DI. This claim is like saying someone forgets how to fight Peach because they hit too many Falcos - you can clearly see out of the gate Mango is playing the Peach MU against Armada, and he does the same against Hbox (As does M2K). Also in the match Mango DIs the first two uthrows (and at 0%, thus avoids followups) but then misses it and gets uthrow -> rest combo'd.

I'll be shocked beyond belief if Jiggs ever wins another national. Even if she does, we know the name of the player that'll do it. That says enough, I think.
EDIT: Someone made a good point about Marth further up - he's got at least even MUs against pretty much everyone relevant in the current metagame (there's not many Sheiks around, they tend to get scrubbed out by spacies). He's pretty good too.

Wait, Mango picked Puff back up?

Seriously though, the same could be said of Peach, Sheik, and Marth (ok it's a toss-up, but really it's only 2). And Falco is also a tossup (sorry, I don't think Westballz will get there - PPMD and Mango). That doesn't mean those characters aren't viable, just that the top pros sort of dominate the rest.

Also, Sheik is definitely relevant - last I checked M2K is M2K. And there are plenty of other good Sheiks, even if I don't watch a lot of Sheiks play (Reno took PPMD to last stock game 3, and Reno's on the local PR wherever he's from at last check - he's not someone to sleep on. There are other examples like this I'm sure, but I'm not inclined to go find evidence when you demand it and provide none of your own).

 

[Frost | Odds]

Please just let this thread die. This stopped being about character potential and became more about what Odds can and cannot do a while ago...

Sorry to have offended you by getting ganged up on. I should've known better than to defend myself.

Carry on, then.

 

[MookieRah]

_Odds, I'm not saying this to be a **** or to be another person dog piling you, but out of pure constructive criticism regarding your attitude. The moment you stop blaming your character for your losses and focus on what you have done wrong and what you can do to improve, you will be a much better player.

I've been hearing that Fox is the best character in the game since I joined these forums, but if you go by the results of the tournaments with the best players, Fox isn't anything spectacular. On paper, yeah, he does seem to be far and away the best, but in practice, not so much.

Meanwhile, I honestly think our dogmatic ideas towards the tier list has hampered melee overall. I think there is a lot of untapped potential with characters, and the scene would look very different if a few things were changed in the past. Imagine how different the melee scene would be if Yoshi was considered good back in 2003-2004? Imagine if Ken won that TG tournament with M2? I guarantee you that things would look very different than they do now. People seem so shocked now that Leffen can do crazy stuff with Yoshi, but Yoshi has always had that potential.

Contrary to popular belief I don't think that Taj, Axe, PikaChad, VectorMan, Leffen, and other mains of low tier characters are actually flukes or are some kind of character specific savant. That is not to discount their abilities as players either, cause they are amazing players, but in general, the characters they play/played are very capable characters if people just got past the idea that they sucked and actually didn't blame the character for their losses and sought to improve their play.

PS: This is not to say tiers don't exist. They do, but we are all full of ourselves if we think that we know all there is to know about low tier characters that have always had very low representation.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sorry to have offended you by getting ganged up on. I should've known better than to defend myself.

Carry on, then.

Defending your point is fine. Defending your point with anecdotal evidence that's flimsy at best & highly based around your own personal experiences (when you are not an authority on the matter) AND debatably doesn't reflect what's happening in the tournament environment is less fine.

 

[Frost | Odds]

_Odds, I'm not saying this to be a **** or to be another person dog piling you

Cute. Thanks, I think.

but out of pure constructive criticism regarding your attitude. The moment you stop blaming your character for your losses and focus on what you have done wrong and what you can do to improve, you will be a much better player.

Obviously. You'll note that I've switched to Falco for exactly this reason.

As I said before, I've been a top player in a ton of games in the past. I'm familiar with the competitive mindset. Part of that is realistic assessment of the available options in terms of characters/factions/whatever. As much as I cheer for low tier players like Axe/Amsa/DJ Nintendo, I cringe when they get hit or die or are unable to secure a kill purely as a function of how bad their character is. I find it legitimately saddening that this game isn't balanced better, and that people are punished so harshly for not picking one of the (2-10, depending on your perspective) playable characters.

PAL would probably be an improvement for those of us in the Americas, IMO.

I'm not johning. I don't think I've implied anywhere in this thread that I'm remotely good (or even decent) at Melee. I'd try again to articulate what I was getting at, but there's no point. It just seems to be making people mad.

And you tried to say "Fox/Puff is the worst by a lot" and I offered a strict counterexample - don't try to weasel your way out now

If you're seriously still trying to argue that Falcon/Falco is worse than Fox/Puff, I have no further words for you. You win or whatever. Go away.

Defending your point is fine. Defending your point with anecdotal evidence that's flimsy at best & highly based around your own personal experiences (when you are not an authority on the matter) AND debatably doesn't reflect what's happening in the tournament environment is less fine.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, but your experience obviously vastly outstrips mine - so fair enough, I guess. For what it's worth, I've always felt that Sheik vs fox/falco was also much worse than estimated by non sheik players. Regardless of how deeply you hold me in contempt, I'll continue enjoying to watch your play.

It's been fun, but I'd rather be practicing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, but your experience obviously vastly outstrips mine - so fair enough, I guess. For what it's worth, I've always felt that Sheik vs fox/falco was also much worse than estimated by non sheik players. Regardless of how deeply you hold me in contempt, I'll continue enjoying to watch your play.

It's been fun, but I'd rather be practicing.

It is my opinion that Sheik is fine vs the spacies. That said (and judging from your posts in general) I'm doubtful we'll see eye to eye on anything. Bye.

 

[Divinokage]

How are people arguing this?

IF AND ONLY IF you feel you need a pocket secondary, a top tier that balances out your character's hard matchups is ideal. Easiest to learn to play technically: Sheik and Jiggs (the latter being obscenely more easy). Jiggs players, get a Marth to deal with Fox. Samus players, get a fox to deal with floaties. Jiggs still doesn't lose to Fox that badly, and Jiggs players complaining about her viability is downright silly. Get over yourselves. The only players with the legitimacy to say that they need a top tier secondary to win are aMSa and Axe, and guess what? They're not saying that. They're too busy outplaying and taking sets and games off the Melee gods.

Ya well i've also done that in the past but neither of those players won a national yet. I think you do need a switch sometimes in order to win the whole thing. Take sets off gods isn't good enough, you have to take them all out. I can't see that happening with non top tier characters.

 

[JKJ]

Really? I can definitely see Axe having a crazy run and beating all the gods.
Hes beaten mew2king, beaten hbox, and come damn close to pp, armada, and mango. the last two were both last stock, last game, at the same tournament. He's got the ability.

 

[Bones0]

Ya well i've also done that in the past but neither of those players won a national yet. I think you do need a switch sometimes in order to win the whole thing. Take sets off gods isn't good enough, you have to take them all out. I can't see that happening with non top tier characters.

Maybe if more than 2-3 good players mained Pikachu/Yoshi/Doc/Samus/whatever char they would have won a national by now... If you think those characters don't have what it takes, that's fine I guess, but idk how anyone can act like their inability has been proven when so few great players have even attempted to win with them. Even with the army of Foxes clawing at the top, the only one that's seen any consistent success is Mango, a player who has already demonstrated his ability to win nationals with Jiggs and Falco. The idea that a Pikachu couldn't win a national if there were 4-5 Pikachu mains around Axe's level seems pretty unlikely, which to me says the character isn't the problem.

People also like to say that maybe Axe is just amazing and happens to play a limited char, but that would mean the same would also have to hold true for aMSa and Shroomed and Plup. Hell, there are plenty of people who think that applies to Armada's Peach and that if he had played a better char he would be solidly the best. It seems pretty convenient that every time a player does well with a mid-high tier, it's ALWAYS the player and never the character being revealed as better than previously thought. Similarly, whenever a Fox or Falco player loses, it's all on the player, and it's NEVER considered that maybe Fox and Falco aren't that good anymore/never were that good in the first place.

 

[D-idara]

I thought this was a Fox/Falco Amiibo thread...space animal, pockets...

 

[MookieRah]

As much as I cheer for low tier players like Axe/Amsa/DJ Nintendo, I cringe when they get hit or die or are unable to secure a kill purely as a function of how bad their character is.

That's exactly what I'm talking about here. You are attributing things to the character that are not entirely the characters's fault.

So first, you claim that they get hit or die because of their character. Well there is a lot that goes on with this statement, as this is based on a character's ability to prevent getting hit in specific situations, as well as their weight, traction, and floatiness. It's hard to judge just how susceptible a character is to various offence, but putting that aside there is a whole lot of confirmation bias with this line of thought.

The thing is, that generally speaking, almost any character can die early due to one bad mistake on their part and a mixture of good luck and skill on the part of the aggressor. Why is it that whenever this happens to a top tier it's the fault of the player, but when it's a low tier it's the fault of the character? Unless you are talking about a very specific set of circumstances and can make a compelling argument regarding character A against character B, then you are likely just mis-attributing things.

Second, stating a character is unable to secure a kill due to how bad their character is. Well this is easier to discuss, but in general I don't think the characters in question have it worse or much worse than many of the top tiers in a lot of cases. Marth comes to mind, as a character that is really good at taking characters out fairly early, but really struggles if they rack up a lot of percent. That doesn't mean Marth is a bad character, it's just something Marth players have to deal with and focus on avoiding.

In general, going back to what I said earlier, a lot of characters simply never received the amount of attention needed for them to be on the same meta as the rest of the cast. While not the most accurate analogy, it's like having a 2010 Fox versus a 2014 Fox. The 2014 Fox is more likely to win, because things have become more developed over time, even if those differences are subtle. Players like Axe, Taj, Vectorman, and hell myself back in the day, had very little to nothing to draw from when they played. They had to develop their character in a vacuum. While it is true that nobody really knew how to fight against these characters due to their novelty, they were still far behind compared to the top tiers that had tons of people developing them. To say that we know, in any definitive way, how all of these low tier characters would perform if they were as developed as some of the top tiers is just silly. That is not to say these characters are better, but we should stop acting like it's impossible.

I'll end this with the fact that there are also low tier characters that get lots of representation but still don't perform well. Characters like Link and Roy come to mind. These characters still remain popular despite their tier list position, and are represented far more than usual for their status on the list. I think it's fair to say that these characters just aren't that viable, as they have been given a lot of love.

 

[SupremeZeta]

Hmm, well as someone who plays Doc, I try to keep a good Fox so I'll play him every now and then.

But I'd have to say I have the most fun with Doc and Roy. Roy's pretty low tier but he's fun to mess around with against bots or something.

 

[Deleted member]

eww no

screw 20XX

falcon for lyfe