Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[2ndComing]

I'm sorry you feel 1111 Mii Fighter is custom.

I mean are 1111 Mii Brawler not custom? The character has no default moveset so technically speaking, 1111 is a custom set right?

 

[GwJ]

Tourney mode has a separate toggle for Mii Fighters on and Customs on.

And again, like I've said earlier in the topic, even if you feel that customs = Mii's alternate specials, what's the "harm" of allowing this "exception" (I don't feel it's an exception because it's defined by the game)?

Does allowing 3 unique characters as they were fully designed in the meta hurt the game? Absolutely not. This is not the same as allowing items which have proven data to be harmful to the meta.

I'd rather be inconsistent in allowing an "exception" in some people's eyes than have 3 characters removed from the meta that have not proven to be harmful to the game's meta.

I have no problem considering them as an exception. If people wanted to say "I know non-1111 Miis are custom, but they're all different moves and I think we should let them be legal for more variety", then there would be merit to it. I'd be more sympathetic to it. But to say that they're not custom simply because the game lets you choose them with customs set to off isn't valid in my opinion.

 

[GwJ]

I mean are 1111 Mii Brawler not custom? The character has no default moveset so technically speaking, 1111 is a custom set right?

Not under my robust definition, it isn't.

 

[2ndComing]

Not under my robust definition, it isn't.

So... you are labeling as something they are not?

Because it seems you acknowledge they have no default

 

[FSLink]

I have no problem considering them as an exception. If people wanted to say "I know non-1111 Miis are custom, but they're all different moves and I think we should let them be legal for more variety", then there would be merit to it. I'd be more sympathetic to it. But to say that they're not custom simply because the game lets you choose them with customs set to off isn't valid in my opinion.

The difference being is that I and many others have the game's logic to back our opinion up. (Allowed in Customs OFF, separate toggle in Tourney mode)

At the end of the day, I'd be allowing 3 unique characters, you'd be banning it on arbitrary logic that's not backed up by the game.

And for what benefit? Just to have consistent logic? Does banning them solve a harmful problem in the game's meta?

 

[CursedJay]

I have no problem considering them as an exception. If people wanted to say "I know non-1111 Miis are custom, but they're all different moves and I think we should let them be legal for more variety", then there would be merit to it. I'd be more sympathetic to it. But to say that they're not custom simply because the game lets you choose them with customs set to off isn't valid in my opinion.

Getting sick and tired of you thinking your opinion is the end all answer.

Not under my robust definition, it isn't.

Well, number 21 I guess.

My point is this: You are concerned with providing what you assume to be the best definition for a custom set. The game has taken it's stance that Mii fighters are not technically custom, yet you still try to peg your opinion as the true definition of customs.

Again:

You are stating your opinion as fact when it is not the case.

I'm just going to quote 1 from now on, the point's been dragged into the mud and I'm tired of sourcing it.

 

[2ndComing]

oops double post
Whatever

 

[GwJ]

So... you are labeling as something they are not?

Because it seems you acknowledge they have no default

I acknowledge you can't use them until you finalize a moveset. I also acknowledge that the moveset all Miis start with are 1111, which follows with the fact that all other characters have 1111 as their default.

The difference being is that I and many others have the game's logic to back our opinion up. (Allowed in Customs OFF, separate toggle in Tourney mode)

At the end of the day, I'd be allowing 3 unique characters, you'd be banning it on arbitrary logic that's not backed up by the game.

And for what benefit? Just to have consistent logic? Does banning them solve a harmful problem in the game's meta?

I'm not calling to ban Miis. There would still be three unique characters. There just wouldn't be 27 unique characters.

 

[Dooms]

So if there is no standard moveset to begin with, then it is entirely "custom" then. So arguing what can or cannot be done by toggling a button means nothing if the game does not even consider them a character.

If you're stating this, you have literally no reason to be arguing for 1111.

We don't care what your views on Mii Fighters as a whole are. Mii Fighter mains as a whole completely realize that they're custom characters.

However, we as Mii Fighter mains understand that every single moveset Mii Fighters have is custom, and we understand that this is 100% fact. 1111 is a custom set just like 1112.

Forcing us into 1111 is like forcing Sheik into 3122. It's just a random custom set chosen.

Sheik isn't supposed to be forced into that set, but for some unknown (or very poor) reason, she is.

Honestly, I know very few Mii Fighter mains that would prefer to have 1111-only over having the character banned completely. We enjoy the character based on how they're supposed to be played, not the half assed version sub-par TO's are creating.

It's never been about equal chance. It's about being treated equally with other characters. All other characters can only use 1111, so Mii Fighters should follow suit. If you want to use more than 1 character set, use customs.

It's not about 1 character set, it's about characters using their default.

We're trying to treat characters equally, so we're using the default that they're balanced around.

Oh look, Mii Fighters aren't balanced around 1111. I guess they shouldn't be forced into that.

#logic101

 

[GwJ]

Getting sick and tired of you thinking your opinion is the end all answer.

Well, number 21 I guess.




I'm just going to quote 1 from now on, the point's been dragged into the mud and I'm tired of sourcing it.

I'm not labeling my opinion as fact. I'm stating my opinion. I haven't sworn under oath or anything to post on Smashboards.

 

[CursedJay]

So if there is no standard moveset to begin with, then it is entirely "custom" then. So arguing what can or cannot be done by toggling a button means nothing if the game does not even consider them a character.

The character is not considered custom by the game's parameters. Anything outside of what the game has stated to be true is assumption. The fact that the character can be created and used in non custom play therefore means that their moves are in fact not considered custom.

 

[GwJ]

A non-1111 Mii is a custom character.


Disprove this statement please.

 

[FSLink]

I acknowledge you can't use them until you finalize a moveset. I also acknowledge that the moveset all Miis start with are 1111, which follows with the fact that all other characters have 1111 as their default.

I'm not calling to ban Miis. There would still be three unique characters. There just wouldn't be 27 unique characters.

They aren't designed to have 1111 movesets though, and they are allowed to have their alternate specials. They are also the only characters that have had 2222/3333 moves changed in recent patches. I think this proves the developers, like JohnNumbers said, consider them different. I'd rather be on the game and developer's side on this one, because it allows 3 characters to their full capacity. A 1111 Mii Brawler does not work and make coherent sense.

A non-1111 Mii is a custom character.


Disprove this statement please.

Allowed in Customs OFF and has a separate toggle for Miis in Tourney Mode.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I like a lot of the points presented so far, specifically the post by John Numbers. At the end of the day, miis are custom characters, but they do not exist in the same vein as everyone else's custom moves, with the most obvious piece of evidence being that the game allows the entirety of miis' specials in a customs-off setting. Just because a special move is numbered with a '2' or a '3' does not mean it is a custom move or should be treated as such.

 

[Dooms]

A non-1111 Mii is a custom character.


Disprove this statement please.

A 1111 Mii is a custom character.

Disprove this statement please.

 

[Lawz.]

The character is not considered custom by the game's parameters. Anything outside of what the game has stated to be true is assumption. The fact that the character can be created and used in non custom play therefore means that their moves are in fact not considered custom.

It is considered custom by the game's parameters. The Miis are custom fighters that are customized in the customs section of the game. If this is not done, they do not exist. Therefore, they are custom.

 

[Nysyr]

I've already stated I don't care what the menu lets you do.

Your only claim to anything in this thread is to try and throw around your weight as a TO. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd rather deal with Smogon suspect test arguments for years than have to try and push your baseless opinion out of this thread. We have established at this point that your arguments are grounded only in your feelings.

It is considered custom by the game's parameters. The Miis are custom fighters that are customized in the customs section of the game. If this is not done, they do not exist. Therefore, they are custom.

So what happens when the toggle is off and the Mii set has equipment?

Riddle me that.

I'll save you the time and tell you then. Only part of the configuration is "custom."

 

[2ndComing]

I acknowledge you can't use them until you finalize a moveset. I also acknowledge that the moveset all Miis start with are 1111, which follows with the fact that all other characters have 1111 as their default.

I'm not calling to ban Miis. There would still be three unique characters. There just wouldn't be 27 unique characters.

But that is both contradictory and ignorant thinking... you know there is no default but you bunch them with other characters just because they have defaults... That makes no sense

Also saying there are 27 unique characters is even more ignorant, yea they are different sets but those sets don't even change the character or make them an entirely different beast. They change the match-ups slightly and you have to adapt to what is presented. Not to mention, you act like there aren't bad and useless Mii variations that won't be used.

 

[GwJ]

Allowed in Customs OFF and has a separate toggle for Miis in Tourney Mode.

Define custom please.

A 1111 Mii is a custom character.

Disprove this statement please.

I don't have to.

 

[CursedJay]

I've already stated I don't care what the menu lets you do.

I'm not creating a default for Miis, I'm defining the default. I do not hold the opinion that Miis have no default. I think they do have a default and that default is 1111. Even if I were to say Miis have no default, I still think 1111 should be considered the "default" because it is the same for all other characters. I do not think it is fair to give Miis access to more than one set when no other character is given that luxury.




My definition of custom differentiates from all of yours because I do not considered the toggle on the CSS to be what defines a custom move. The game does not define customs for us. You can select custom Miis with customs off, yet to create them you must go in the custom menu in the first place. However, that would make it impossible to allow Miis in the first place under a no-customs environment. That is why I am not arguing that the game's label defines what we view as customs. My view of customs is the most reasonable in that it most accurately describes what we mean when we say custom.

Forgive me for using a definition I believe to be correct. Miis have custom moves because under the definition I believe to be the best definition of what makes a custom character custom, a non-1111 moveset is custom.



I never said 1 is default because it comes before 2 and 3. 1 is default because the initial value for a move is 1. That's what default means.

Ahem:

1

 

[Dooms]

I don't have to.

Then why would I have to disprove your statment?

Also, custom is defined by custom fighters being turned on in the rules menu on the game.

 

[FSLink]

It is considered custom by the game's parameters. The Miis are custom fighters that are customized in the customs section of the game. If this is not done, they do not exist. Therefore, they are custom.

I agree, but they are allowed in the Customs OFF in-game settings.

I don't think forcing them into 1111 is good, it's a half assed compromise, they are designed to have varied movesets.

Should we follow the Customs OFF in-game settings in our customless meta and allow Mii Fighters in? I'd say yes, they are 3 unique characters that are designed to have different movesets. Allowing them different movesets would not be harmful to the meta.

It's really a question of "Do we want created characters (Miis) to be allowed?"
I'd say it should be fine, logistically they cause no issues, competitively they aren't broken.

Define custom please.



I don't have to.

My opinion of what a custom is and yours are different. I feel Miis are custom CHARACTERS that have alternate specials, they are not designed to have a default moveset. I don't think we should argue about this, it'd cause circular arguments and disagreements on definitions.

We should just debate on whether it's okay to allow them with their full movesets, arguing over definitions is stupid.
I'd say it's perfectly okay, I do not care if it's seen as an exception to your eyes, it allows 3 characters into the meta as they're designed to be played.

 

[GwJ]

Then why would I have to disprove your statment?

Also, custom is defined by custom fighters being turned on in the rules menu on the game.

The customs menu states: "You can/not use fighters created in Custom."

I don't think "Fighters created in Custom" is a good definition for a custom character.

 

[CursedJay]

Define custom please.

The custom tab allows for characters to be customized for use when the custom toggle on the game menu is enabled. However, The custom moves of the Mii Fighters do not require the toggle to be enabled, making them usable in non custom play. Therefore, the movesets of the Mii fighters are considered by the game to be non-custom modifications.

In reply to above:

1.

 

[Lawz.]

Your only claim to anything in this thread is to try and throw around your weight as a TO. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd rather deal with Smogon suspect test arguments for years than have to try and push your baseless opinion out of this thread. We have established at this point that your arguments are grounded only in your feelings.



So what happens when the toggle is off and the Mii set has equipment?

Riddle me that.

I'll save you the time and tell you then. Only part of the configuration is "custom."

Mii fighters are not part of the character select screen until they are created and customized in the customs menu. The toggle button doesn't change this fact. The character as a whole is considered custom by this parameter. What happens after does not matter because a Mii is still custom.

Your condescending tone removes your legitimacy in this debate.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

A 1111 Mii is a custom character.

Disprove this statement please.

I don't have to.

And this right here is why I stopped participating. It's too late at night for this..

I can only hope more people are willing to post in this thread tomorrow so we can have some variance. It's been nothing but that same stuff for the past 3-4 pages and no one's willing to budge, even if only one side has anywhere to budge to...

 

[CursedJay]

Lawz, as I've said: The game allows the Mii Fighters to have their custom sets in non custom play. Therefore, these sets are not considered to be custom by the game. Working within these parameters, Mii Fighter Sets are not to be considered custom, as the game has made up its mind.

 

[GwJ]

Lawz, as I've said: The game allows the Mii Fighters to have their custom sets in non custom play. Therefore, these sets are not considered to be custom by the game. Working within these parameters, Mii Fighter Sets are not to be considered custom, as the game has made up its mind.

The customs menu states: "You can/not use fighters created in Custom."

I don't think "Fighters created in Custom" is a good definition for a custom character.

 

[FSLink]

Mii fighters are not part of the character select screen until they are created and customized in the customs menu. The toggle button doesn't change this fact. The character as a whole is considered custom by this parameter. What happens after does not matter because a Mii is still custom.

Your condescending tone removes your legitimacy in this debate.

It's a custom character, much like how Soul Calibur has custom characters. But it's allowed in Customs OFF in our game. We don't have as big as of a logistical issue in custom characters in our game, and they also provide 3 characters with unique movesets.

Again I don't think arguing about what is a custom and what is not is a healthy debate.

They're allowed in the game in Customs OFF, and they're not broken so why not let them into our ruleset? Just to be consistently logistical? It removes 3 unique characters (with the gimmick of customizable specials) from play if you're just arguing for the sake of logic instead of "is this healthy for the meta?"

 

[2ndComing]

Mii fighters are not part of the character select screen until they are created and customized in the customs menu. The toggle button doesn't change this fact. The character as a whole is considered custom by this parameter. What happens after does not matter because a Mii is still custom.

Your condescending tone removes your legitimacy in this debate.

I mean... if we are bring the character select into this.... unlockable characters any one?

Same for stages too and even the Time limit option

By the way, there is a distinction in Smash Wii U between custom moves and customization

The Customs tags dictate Mii which are allowed with customs off, characters with their custom move variations and... equipment....

The Customs Tab is just a central hub for all customization for each character which pertains to their moves and their equipment.

So Mii's only follow under the customs tab when they have equipment while everyone else loses their custom move variations. Now that I think about it, a big reason as to why Customs aren't allowed for everyone is pretty much because their moves are slight changes on what they already have. That is done so that you aren't just fully gimped from what you had before. You don't have to adjust as hard now since its still the move just changed so that it could function a slightly different way.

Mii's don't have that luxury because they have no default. Can't believe I just realized that

 

[CursedJay]

*Sigh*

Define custom please.

The custom tab allows for characters to be customized for use when the custom toggle on the game menu is enabled. However, The custom moves of the Mii Fighters do not require the toggle to be enabled, making them usable in non custom play. Therefore, the movesets of the Mii fighters are considered by the game to be non-custom modifications.

I'm just going to put you back into check every time you try that. Just Take the damn L.

 

[Nysyr]

Mii fighters are not part of the character select screen until they are created and customized in the customs menu. The toggle button doesn't change this fact. The character as a whole is considered custom by this parameter. What happens after does not matter because a Mii is still custom.

Your condescending tone removes your legitimacy in this debate.

Oh how high and mighty of you, my dear redbar.

This entire argument drills down to allowing Mii's or not. We have already established that if 1111 isn't custom, then 2122, etc are not custom. Conversely, if they are custom, then 1111 is also custom.

So now to the real point, are you for allowing the game to dictate what customs or not, or are you simply allowing 1111 Mii's to break the no custom rule in order to APPEAR benevolent while knowing FULL WELL that they will not see use?

Your's and GwJ's arguments aren't worthy of serious discussion or respect. They are completely found-less, and appear extremely arrogant.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Yeah can't you see you've been bested @ GwJ ? He's just too smart and correct, there's no possibility at all that he might be wrong or other opinions could be valid. His is the correct and only one and I'm just happy I got to be here

 

[CursedJay]

I'm waiting for GwJ to hit me with a new point. I'll tear that down too and he'll fall back into circle logic.

Take.

The L.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Yeah tell him!

 

[CursedJay]

Yeah can't you see you've been bested @ GwJ ? He's just too smart and correct, there's no possibility at all that he might be wrong or other opinions could be valid. His is the correct and only one and I'm just happy I got to be here

Oh, other opinions are definitely valid. I've been ignoring most others and focusing on this one though. He's a very adamant one, I'll tell you that lol.

 

[Auramaniji]

Lets go Jaybird!

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Probably because he's right I dunno

 

[Lawz.]

It's a custom character, much like how Soul Calibur has custom characters. But it's allowed in Customs OFF in our game. We don't have as big as of a logistical issue in custom characters in our game, and they also provide 3 characters with unique movesets.

Again I don't think arguing about what is a custom and what is not is a healthy debate.

They're allowed in the game in Customs OFF, and they're not broken so why not let them into our ruleset? Just to be consistently logistical? It removes 3 unique characters (with the gimmick of customizable specials) from play if you're just arguing for the sake of logic instead of "is this healthy for the meta?"

If we are debating whether a Mii fighter (what you yourself defined as custom as well) should or should not be allowed in a non custom environment, it would only make sense that they don't be allowed as they are custom fighters.

I just want to clarify that I am not arguing their viability at all (in terms of tier placements or whether a move is ridiculous or not). I do not use Mii fighters so my place in that specific argument wouldn't mean much.

 

[GwJ]

Oh how high and mighty of you, my dear redbar.

This entire argument drills down to allowing Mii's or not. We have already established that if 1111 isn't custom, then 2122, etc are not custom. Conversely, if they are custom, then 1111 is also custom.

So now to the real point, are you for allowing the game to dictate what customs or not, or are you simply allowing 1111 Mii's to break the no custom rule in order to APPEAR benevolent while knowing FULL WELL that they will not see use?

Your's and GwJ's arguments aren't worthy of serious discussion or respect. They are completely found-less, and appear extremely arrogant.

Before I get to addressing the content of the post, cool it with the attitude man. Regardless of how valid our points appear to you, acting this way is only aiming to piss people off.

We have NOT established that if 1111 isn't custom, then 2122 isn't custom and the converse of that statement.

It also does not matter if they will see play or not.

I'm waiting for GwJ to hit me with a new point. I'll tear that down too and he'll fall back into circle logic.

Take.

The L.

I'm ignoring you because you're too concerned with telling me I lose than talking about the issue.