Should Cloud be rebalanced?

[Conn1496]

Now I think the general consensus is that Cloud isn't the best character in the game. He's not particularly deserving of a nerf either, atleast not IMO, but I do feel there definately are still some glaring issues with the power of atleast one of his tools. F-smash particularly feels far too powerful, and it's agreed unanimously that U-air is above average, if not incredible, but I don't honestly see any part of his moveset that needs particularly improving to counteract outright balancing him. All of his weaknesses seem pretty much down to his mobility - most notably offstage - but fixing those to compensate will probably completely unbalance him to broken levels since mobility is a huge part of the game.

His weakest move (Atleast IMO. I dunno how other people feel about this one.) is arguably F-tilt, and buffing that as compensation for neutering two of his best tools doesn't seem particularly fair either, and then you still have the possibility that Cloud mains would straight up hate the change even if it was worthwhile.

I guess my question isn't how Cloud should be changed if he is, it's more if he should be changed at all. A lot of people are complaining about him and, yes, he has some arguably broken moves (F-smash in particular can beat some counters, which in of itself is pretty ridiculous.), but he's not overall broken, and his weaknesses are very glaring. Hugely so, even.

He hits both extremes pretty hard, and while we've seen this before with characters like Little Mac and Mewtwo, never has anyone really complained about it. Most people take this sort of "character balance Min-Maxing" with a pinch of salt since previous characters with both extreme positives and negatives have never done too well competitively. So does Cloud need changing?

TL;DR: Should Cloud be changed? Not 'how', rather 'should' he at all?

[Edit]: ! Look, this thread isn't about nerfing Cloud. If it was about nerfing Cloud, the thread topic would be "Should Cloud be nerfed?", and it's not (Hell, I play Cloud, why would I want him nerfed in any way if I didn't feel it was necessary?). Please for the love of all that is holy do not take this thread the wrong way.

 

[Kenith]

I don't think his F-smash is OP at all.
Also, people have absolutely complained about Little Mac hitting too hard.

It became a meme.
Before him being a joke took over, that is.

 

[Murlough]

The character was just recently released so it is far too early to tell, in my opinion.

There are people who will scream until they are blue in the face that Cloud is OP. Guess what? They said the same thing about Roy for a little while. Where is Roy now? Not even top tier.

 

[Conn1496]

I don't think his F-smash is OP at all.
Also, people have absolutely complained about Little Mac hitting too hard.

It became a meme.
Before him being a joke took over, that is.

F-smash is pretty ridiculous. It comes out pretty quick, lingers, and is among the strongest F-smashes in the game (The last hit alone kills Bowser at 95% from default training position of FD.), not forgetting its range and hitbox safety. Whether it's too powerful for Cloud's moveset though is a whole different story - I think there's a chance it isn't, so there's a good chance that it doesn't need changing anyway.

-and true on the Mac thing, but it didn't last particularly long IIRC, and most people who knew Mac's (blatant) weaknesses never said that Mac was too powerful. There's still a good chance that Cloud might be really good even after his MUs are fleshed out and his weaknesses are capitalised on IMO, and that could kinda be a problem.

The character was just recently released so it is far too early to tell, in my opinion.

There are people who will scream until they are blue in the face that Cloud is OP. Guess what? They said the same thing about Roy for a little while. Where is Roy now? Not even top tier.

That's true - I remember Bowser's boards having a problem with people saying Bowser is OP (-and still occasionally do.) early in the game - and he's not particularly up there either.

I don't think it's totally too early to tell if certain moves of his are too powerful, though it's definitely fair to say that as Cloud's meta evolves, those opinions might change in relation to the rest of Cloud as a character, so I guess it's ultimately down to the latter (Since one or two powerful moves never makes the entire character... Unless you play ZSS. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. JK.).

 

[Kalierdarke]

I honestly think the only thing cloud really NEEDS is a ledge snap on climhazzard at the apex of the move.

Aside from that he really doesn't need to be adjusted, in either direction.

Could he use some? probably, but as was mentioned above it's too soon to tell what minor changes he could use. His moves hit hard but they're easy to avoid/punish in general, once people get used to using him/fighting against him then we'll know.

 

[PK Gaming]

F-smash is pretty ridiculous. It comes out pretty quick, lingers, and is among the strongest F-smashes in the game (The last hit alone kills Bowser at 95% from default training position of FD.), not forgetting its range and hitbox safety. Whether it's too powerful for Cloud's moveset though is a whole different story - I think there's a chance it isn't, so there's a good chance that it doesn't need changing anyway.

19 frame start up is not quick at all. Stop letting your experiences on For Glory color your perspective.

Cloud maybe needs some adjustments... just not the kind you're asking for.

 

[Conn1496]

I honestly think the only thing cloud really NEEDS is a ledge snap on climhazzard at the apex of the move.

Aside from that he really doesn't need to be adjusted, in either direction.

Could he use some? probably, but as was mentioned above it's too soon to tell what minor changes he could use. His moves hit hard but they're easy to avoid/punish in general, once people get used to using him/fighting against him then we'll know.

Although I think Climhazzard not ledge-snapping is actually a decent trade-off for the power of some of his moves, it's infinitely more irritating than being on the brunt of half of his moves, even if they are "OP". So this I can agree on - Climhazzard should snap to ledge. lol

-and yeah, a lot of his moves are easy to punish, but I wouldn't totally say they're easy to avoid. Things like U-smash and N-air have huge ranges on them for their speed, and while they're not particularly his strongest moves, they still cause a problem for most characters trying to space him out - and in some cases, escape him.

To a lot of people, he's like Ike on steroids, and I can't lie and say I don't see the comparison. -and while that doesn't make him OP, it makes him a huge problem for quite a few characters that already have a problem with Ike's somewhat increasing presence in the meta-game - almost unnecessarily so. Though, yes, on the flipside, he is kind of a cakewalk for some MUs himself. While it's all about understanding that before making a decision on a larger scale, I think you can still analyze his tools well enough to argue where some are "broken" and work off that data.

19 frame start up is not quick at all. Stop letting your experiences on For Glory color your perspective.

Actually, I say it as someone who plays Cloud. The speed of the move comparative to it's power and (arguably) range really feels off-balance. -and yes, I know frame 19 is not "quick" at all, but if you look at other F-smashes, again, it's comparatively good for one that kills so early, has multiple hits, decent range, etc etc. I've even had it shield poke once or twice, and I think that's a little unfair since it's a powerful kill-move and all. (They could at least remove it's ability to counter some counters. Because damn that's insane...).

It's not "definitely an issue", but Cloud overall could be notably neutered by his F-smash being reeled back a bit (Mostly because it's one of few early kill options he has out of limit.), and while it's a totally different issue if it should be, I just think that his F-smash is certainly one of his more solid moves alongside U-air.

Honestly, I will admit that that's just my opinion, but I also don't think anyone playing Cloud would particularly care if they weakened his F-smash on it's own since most prefer the safety of his limit kills anyway (Even if some are later.). Though I think it would make people who find that move particularly irritating happy.


-- Just a note about the thread in general though, I don't think it's unfair to be having this discussion already. -the main reason I bring it up is because we're probably not facing multiple balance patches like we have been with some previously problematic characters. -and if Cloud turns out to be problematic (or even if he turns out to be not as good) too late, it could really harm the competitive scene for a lot of players. I'm not saying it will (it likely won't, let's be realistic, Cloud isn't like... -ZSS or Sheik.), but I think people are shirking on this discussion of "Are some of Cloud's tools 'too good'?" quite a bit considering that... Some of his tools just are incredibly good. --

 

[Quarium]

He is balanced, his neutral is super solid and limit's are very scary but the lack of ledge snapping and crappy recovery balances it out pretty well imo.

 

[Chalice]

Honestly, the only change I would give him is allowing normal Climhazzard to ledge snap. Other than that, cloud is pretty set.

 

[Ninja Girl]

I'm not too keen of characters like Cloud and Little Mac. They feel really gimmicky to me and usually they either win or lose really one sidedly and it always feels cheesy. Either they landed a couple hits and got ridiculously early KOs or they got thrown off the stage and gimped at low %. I can see how people might like them for those same reasons, but I personally think having some characters be too extreme is bad for the game. Too many scenarios where the person that played better loses. Especially in lower level play and on For Glory where there is lag and only Omega stages.

They're also hard to balance. A tournament viable version of Little Mac or Cloud would be nice for the pro scene, but would also absolutely destroy lower level players.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Honestly, the only change I would give him is allowing normal Climhazzard to ledge snap. Other than that, cloud is pretty set.

Cloud being easy to edge-guard is currently one of his worst flaws. Allowing Climhazzard to ledge snap would make him even more powerful and hard to deal with.

Besides, if Clouds time their double jumps and wall jumps correctly, they can almost reach the ledge without exposing any hitboxes for opponents to hit.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Cloud being easy to edge-guard is currently one of his worst flaws. Allowing Climhazzard to ledge snap would make him even more powerful and hard to deal with.

Besides, if Clouds time their double jumps and wall jumps correctly, they can almost reach the ledge without exposing any hitboxes for opponents to hit.

It already has 2 points at which it will ledge snap, adding a third still makes him very gimpable by most of the cast as his recovery will still be predictable. As it stands, Climhazzard snaps right at the startup, and on the downward slash(provided it's initiated high enough up), both of which are still gimpable. Adding another snap at the very top of it will still allow people to jump off and stage spike him as he tries to recover low. It'll just stop people from standing on stage and using attacks that reach slightly below the edge( namely, FLUDD)


It'll still leave cloud with a very large portion of the move that won't snap(about 90% of it)

 

[Lady Kuki]

Nope. Not at all. I think he's fine just the way he is. He's like Roy; the only reason why people think he's powerful is due to lack of match up experience. Once people start to learn the match up, more and more people will know how to counter him.

I mean, I guess I'd change his recovery to make it a little better, but I usually get back to the ledge just fine with him. I dunno. Maybe I haven't gone up against any menacing Clouds? Perhaps that's why I don't see why people hate like fighting him. o.o

 

[Rubiss]

Limit Break Down B kills way too early (like most of the cast is dying at like 70%~ without rage and very close to the ground). That should be changed. It's bad enough we have the KO Punch gimmick. We really don't need another KO punch that can be expended as Cloud sees fit.

 

[PapaJ]

Limit Break Down B kills way too early (like most of the cast is dying at like 60%~ without rage and very close to the ground). That should be changed. It's bad enough we have the KO Punch gimmick. We really don't need another KO punch that can be expended as Cloud sees fit.

*sigh*, it comes out frame sixteen has NO armor and the setups are very easy to see coming. If you ever get hit by a FT it's your fault. It' not like Mac' KO punch that has armor and eats shields. Furthermore, Cloud will most likely use limit on Blade Beam or Cross slash as they deal damage and have Iframes. Not to mention you can force him to use limit offstage to remove the FT. This isn't hard. Stop being a bad player.

Edit: This thread is pointless since Cloud isn't winning nationals or locals at an absurd rate. He hasn't been out for a month yet and people are already talking about "This is why Cloud is OP". A character is truly OP when we see prepatch Diddy. A character that doesn't have any inherent flaws, easy KO setups, and with tourney results. Guess who has none of these? Threads like these activity detract from the goal of these forum in which we discuss the character current weaknesses and strengths and help other prospecting Cloud mains and subs. This type of mentality of "should he be nerfed" helps no one. /end rant

 

[FightingPolygon]

There was a thread for Bowser this patch too.

People are just overhyping things. The only change Cloud needs is like some people said, making Climhazzard snap at the top.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Limit Break Down B kills way too early (like most of the cast is dying at like 70%~ without rage and very close to the ground). That should be changed. It's bad enough we have the KO Punch gimmick. We really don't need another KO punch that can be expended as Cloud sees fit.

Rest says hi. And comes out faster than FT. Plus has Invincibility frames. AND does damage.

 

[Conn1496]

*sigh*, it comes out frame sixteen has NO armor and the setups are very easy to see coming. If you ever get hit by a FT it's your fault. It' not like Mac' KO punch that has armor and eats shields. Furthermore, Cloud will most likely use limit on Blade Beam or Cross slash as they deal damage and have Iframes. Not to mention you can force him to use limit offstage to remove the FT. This isn't hard. Stop being a bad player.

Edit: This thread is pointless since Cloud isn't winning nationals or locals at an absurd rate. He hasn't been out for a month yet and people are already talking about "This is why Cloud is OP". A character is truly OP when we see prepatch Diddy. A character that doesn't have any inherent flaws, easy KO setups, and with tourney results. Guess who has none of these? Threads like these activity detract from the goal of these forum in which we discuss the character current weaknesses and strengths and help other prospecting Cloud mains and subs. This type of mentality of "should he be nerfed" helps no one. /end rant

Actually - and I want to clarify - this thread is actually about if Cloud needs changing at all, nothing particularly about nerfs. Infact, one of the only things I've agreed with so far has been that Climhazzard should snap to ledge, and that would actively be buffing him. -and it's not all about if he's winning tourneys IMO, I think certain characters really flip the game's balance in very bizarre, uncomfortable ways, and Cloud is turning out to be one of the worst offenders since his MUs are looking more and more wildly juxtaposed by the day. Not necessarily "strong", but definitely one of few characters who's opponent's counter-picks are gonna matter maybe a bit too much.

If anything, I just want to close down the extremeness of his MUs down so Greninja and Mario don't utterly cream him with a single push-box and any characters that struggle against him don't feel like the MU has no answers (Which I understand might actually just fix itself with time and knowledge.). -and by general consensus, I think most people don't find any of Cloud's MUs "too good" but I've lurked enough to know that some people already hate the fact all it takes is a good push to kill him. -chances are if Cloud does get changed, he'll be marginally buffed at this rate, and I don't mind that.

When it comes to my personal opinion, I think a couple of Cloud's moves should be neutered, sure (Most notably F-smash, which has some serious jank properties. U-air could maybe do with one since that hitbox lasts forever, but I don't think it's wholly problematic.), but I'm not gonna say no to people wanting Climhazzard to snap to ledge. I play - and enjoy - Cloud, too. I just wish his MUs didn't feel so generally one-sided. He feels pretty imbalanced (Not OP.) and that's unfortunate.

(Also, side-point, yeah, I'm agreeing with you that Finishing Touch is not that powerful at all, I don't see an issue with a move that kills at 60% if it's that difficult to hit with. I should know, I try all too often. lol)

 

[Notoriginalname]

Yeah. Some good followup or kill throws would be good, and a decent recovery.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Now I think the general consensus is that Cloud isn't the best character in the game. He's not particularly deserving of a nerf either, atleast not IMO, but I do feel there definately are still some glaring issues with the power of atleast one of his tools. F-smash particularly feels far too powerful, and it's agreed unanimously that U-air is above average, if not incredible, but I don't honestly see any part of his moveset that needs particularly improving to counteract outright balancing him. All of his weaknesses seem pretty much down to his mobility - most notably offstage - but fixing those to compensate will probably completely unbalance him to broken levels since mobility is a huge part of the game.

His weakest move (Atleast IMO. I dunno how other people feel about this one.) is arguably F-tilt, and buffing that as compensation for neutering two of his best tools doesn't seem particularly fair either, and then you still have the possibility that Cloud mains would straight up hate the change even if it was worthwhile.

I guess my question isn't how Cloud should be changed if he is, it's more if he should be changed at all. A lot of people are complaining about him and, yes, he has some arguably broken moves (F-smash in particular can beat some counters, which in of itself is pretty ridiculous.), but he's not overall broken, and his weaknesses are very glaring. Hugely so, even.

He hits both extremes pretty hard, and while we've seen this before with characters like Little Mac and Mewtwo, never has anyone really complained about it. Most people take this sort of "character balance Min-Maxing" with a pinch of salt since previous characters with both extreme positives and negatives have never done too well competitively. So does Cloud need changing?

TL;DR: Should Cloud be changed? Not 'how', rather 'should' he at all?

[Edit]: ! Look, this thread isn't about nerfing Cloud. If it was about nerfing Cloud, the thread topic would be "Should Cloud be nerfed?", and it's not (Hell, I play Cloud, why would I want him nerfed in any way if I didn't feel it was necessary?). Please for the love of all that is holy do not take this thread the wrong way.

You are all wrong the Lord of Darkness is OP please nerf.

 

[Tino]

I agree with everyone else that Climhazzard should snap at the ledge rather than falling straight downhill to his death.

Other than that, he plays just fine to me.

 

[Notoriginalname]

I agree with everyone else that Climhazzard should snap at the ledge rather than falling straight downhill to his death.

Other than that, he plays just fine to me.

Well I think his throws need improvement. He has only one good throw.

 

[Conn1496]

Well I think his throws need improvement. He has only one good throw.

He's contending just fine without them. A buff like that could get excessive. Just saying.

 

[Karna]

The only changes i'd like to see are Climhazzard ledge snapping so any joker with a windbox can't kill us for free, and gaining a combo throw so he has something to deal with shields.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Be glad they kept his basic moveset and not his dissidia one XD

 

[Notoriginalname]

He's contending just fine without them. A buff like that could get excessive. Just saying.

Yeah, but wouldn't you like Cloud as a more viable character?

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, but wouldn't you like Cloud as a more viable character?

He's already pretty viable, IMO... I don't necessarily want him to be the next Sheik/ZSS. He already has enough tools to be viable, good throws seems a bit much to be asking for, really.

 

[Notoriginalname]

He's not THAT viable, he can't face off top tiers and there's much better characters.

 

[Conn1496]

He's not THAT viable, he can't face off top tiers and there's much better characters.

I'd actually put him above Ike and Ike is showing to be pretty viable... -and it's not like everyone else can straight up always beat top-tiers either. It's just down to learning MUs at the end of the day, and it always will be. You don't see, say, the Pit or Roy boards whining about not always beating top-tiers or having characters better than them. Cloud should not be the special exception.

 

[Notoriginalname]

It would be nice if we had an actual top tier sword user other than MK.

 

[Conn1496]

It would be nice if we had an actual top tier sword user other than MK.

Now you're just throwing wishes around and not actually paying attention to the thread... Why does it matter if Cloud is top tier or not? The discussion here is if he needs changes at all, not "What could make Cloud stronger?".

Cloud has a fine set of moves as is, and on a list of Cons to make up for that, throws are there. Making a Con into a Pro would effectively be too large a swing for a character like Cloud - The changes to Ike (I know I keep mentioning Ike, but he's just a good example.) in and of themselves proved that buffs like that make a huge difference, since he's pretty viable now.

If you want a character to be top-tier or not is irrelevant because at the end of the day it's about balancing the game, not fulfilling wishes. If that was the case, characters like Zelda, Dedede, and (god forbid) Ganondorf would be being buffed left right and center. -and they actually need buffs unlike Cloud who is pretty fair as is.

If you're that desperate for a swordfighter that isn't MK to hit top tier, go campaign for buffs to a character who actually needs it like Lucina or Shulk, not someone who's already turning out to be relatively balanced by general consensus.

 

[Kurodyne]

Be glad they kept his basic moveset and not his dissidia one XD

Yes, because what a moveset is based on alone makes a character OP
Up next: Can Aether actually heal Ike?



Cloud's fine where he is as far as I'm concerned, but I agree that a ledge snap couldn't hurt.

 

[Conn1496]

Yes, because what a moveset is based on alone makes a character OP
Up next: Can Aether actually heal Ike?

Well, it is his recovery. Just sayin'.

Also, general consensus seems to be that he almost definitely needs a ledge snap. So it's good to see people agreeing on one thing at least.

 

[Rubiss]

*sigh*, it comes out frame sixteen has NO armor and the setups are very easy to see coming. If you ever get hit by a FT it's your fault. It' not like Mac' KO punch that has armor and eats shields. Furthermore, Cloud will most likely use limit on Blade Beam or Cross slash as they deal damage and have Iframes. Not to mention you can force him to use limit offstage to remove the FT. This isn't hard. Stop being a bad player.

Well, it comes out faster than Fsmash. With proper reading and timing, it's actually not as hard to land as you're making it out to be. Saying you can force Cloud to use his limit break by getting him offstage isn't a solution either. Sure, he might need to use it offstage, but the problem is getting him there. I'm not talking about bad Cloud players either. I'm talking about good ones who excel at spacing and defensive play and are up against characters who cannot zone him out well. In matchups like these, Cloud gets his limit break several times per two stock round. FT kills far too early for how easy it is for him charge his limit break.

Rest says hi. And comes out faster than FT. Plus has Invincibility frames. AND does damage.

Rest also has much less range and is incredibly punishable if missed.


On topic, I really don't think he needs a ledge snap. Considering his power, range, mobility and zoning capabilities (charging limit break is actually a very good tool to force players to approach), I don't think his recovery needs an improvement. I think players greatly underestimate how high he jumps and aren't using his walljumps effectively. Kirby doesn't always snap to ledge. I'm fairly sure Ike doesn't either. They both require you to sweetspot the ledge. Why should Cloud be any different?

As for whether or not he's balanced, it's kind of hard to say. He's good at spacing and has pretty good frame data, especially for the raw power and range he brings. He has a projectile as well and charging limit pretty much forces an approach. He seems pretty good all over, safe for his recovery (which I think people are seriously underrating). I don't really think he needs to be rebalanced.

 

[Zenithia]

I don't think Cloud needs to be buffed in any way, that's for sure. His Climhazzard may not have snapping, but his limit version does and has great range. That more than makes up for it, imo.

Also, his limit breaks shouldn't be nerfed. It's pretty easy to avoid Finishing Touch, and you won't have to deal with it at all if you knock him off the stage.

 

[Conn1496]

Well, it comes out faster than Fsmash. With proper reading and timing, it's actually not as hard to land as you're making it out to be. Saying you can force Cloud to use his limit break by getting him offstage isn't a solution either. Sure, he might need to use it offstage, but the problem is getting him there. I'm not talking about bad Cloud players either. I'm talking about good ones who excel at spacing and defensive play and are up against characters who cannot zone him out well. In matchups like these, Cloud gets his limit break several times per two stock round. FT kills far too early for how easy it is for him charge his limit break.

It does come out faster than F-smash, sure, but there's also at most 7 seconds of charging limit between them, whereas F-Smash is an "any time" kill option. -and saying "With proper reading and timing, it can ___." goes for basically most moves, surely?

I do agree that making him waste his limit is easier said than done though, but it's not like any of his limit moves are unblockable, and that tends to be the key, I find. Making them literally not hit is more important than making him use limit Climhazzard.

Talking about good players hitting FT is about as good an argument as talking about good players hitting other hard to hit moves. I mean, yeah, it is technically faster and better at killing than most other moves of a similar nature, but that's it's only selling point. It's still a punishing move, so most players aren't ever gonna be in a position where they can comfortably and reliably confirm it.

Rest also has much less range and is incredibly punishable if missed.

I think the point is that rest is actually more a problem than Finishing Touch is in the bigger picture because you can't "remove it from play", it's faster and it kills earlier. They're in the same vein of attacks - punishing moves. Rest is incredibly superior to FT in that regard, even despite it's lack of range.

On topic, I really don't think he needs a ledge snap. Considering his power, range, mobility and zoning capabilities (charging limit break is actually a very good tool to force players to approach), I don't think his recovery needs an improvement. I think players greatly underestimate how high he jumps and aren't using his walljumps effectively. Kirby doesn't always snap to ledge. I'm fairly sure Ike doesn't either. They both require you to sweetspot the ledge. Why should Cloud be any different?

As for whether or not he's balanced, it's kind of hard to say. He's good at spacing and has pretty good frame data, especially for the raw power and range he brings. He has a projectile as well and charging limit pretty much forces an approach. He seems pretty good all over, safe for his recovery (which I think people are seriously underrating). I don't really think he needs to be rebalanced.

Kirby and Ike are much harder to punish though IMO, mostly due to the down swing snapping to ledge pretty comfortably and protecting you quite a bit, most notably with Aether. Sure it's not guaranteed you won't get kicked out of those moves, but there's enough support there, I feel. That being said, I guess the same could be applied to Cloud without breaking Climhazzard, since his down swing only ledgesnaps late. -and though I agree, his tools could actually compensate enough for his weak recovery - time is mostly gonna answer that question. (Also, sidenote: Walljumps aren't always viable, just pointing that out there.)

-and I will agree with you that it's hard to say if he's balanced - against other characters atleast. His playstyle in and of itself is completely imbalanced in a sense since your best defense is your offense with Cloud - fairly similarly to Little Mac except your defensive property is range, not super armor (-and both are pretty fast, to be fair.). -and people are underrating Climhazzard a little, I tend to rarely get outright KOd because it doesn't snap to ledge, which is what people seem to think is the case, but I refuse to not agree it needs to snap to the ledge at some point, even if it is the down swing.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I think the point is that rest is actually more a problem than Finishing Touch is in the bigger picture because you can't "remove it from play", it's faster and it kills earlier. They're in the same vein of attacks - punishing moves. Rest is incredibly superior to FT in that regard, even despite it's lack of range.

Not to mention, due to the invincibility frames, Rest can be used as a psuedo counter, FT can't. So rest is both a punish and a "counter", FT is just a punish with less all around benefits and not able to be used the exact moment you want to every time.

I will take this over FT any day

 

[Rubiss]

Not to mention, due to the invincibility frames, Rest can be used as a psuedo counter, FT can't. So rest is both a punish and a "counter", FT is just a punish with less all around benefits and not able to be used the exact moment you want to every time.

I will take this over FT any day

You can't really compare the two. They belong to completely different characters and as such, have their strengths and weaknesses better suited for the character. Rest doesn't have the range of FT and it leaves you extremely vulnerable. Given Jigglypuff's weight class, just missing a rest can often cost you a stock (or put you in a position to lose one much, much sooner). Jigglypuff doesn't kill as early as Cloud nor does she have the same range or disjointed hitboxes.She relies on gimping and rest for a majority of her kills. They can't be compared. Rest is vital to Jiggypuff's playstyle. FT isn't. It's just an extremely powerful move which in all honesty, is easier to land to FSmash and kills most of the cast at 70%~ without rage. Sure, Cloud doesn't always have his limit break, but he has very little trouble getting it, especially with limit break cancelling. Using Rest as an example as to why FT isn't good doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The character the moves belong to play completely different and honestly? They are practically opposites.

 

[Kalierdarke]

You can't really compare the two. They belong to completely different characters and as such, have their strengths and weaknesses better suited for the character. Rest doesn't have the range of FT and it leaves you extremely vulnerable. Given Jigglypuff's weight class, just missing a rest can often cost you a stock (or put you in a position to lose one much, much sooner). Jigglypuff doesn't kill as early as Cloud nor does she have the same range or disjointed hitboxes.She relies on gimping and rest for a majority of her kills. They can't be compared. Rest is vital to Jiggypuff's playstyle. FT isn't. It's just an extremely powerful move which in all honesty, is easier to land to FSmash and kills most of the cast at 70%~ without rage. Sure, Cloud doesn't always have his limit break, but he has very little trouble getting it, especially with limit break cancelling. Using Rest as an example as to why FT isn't good doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The character the moves belong to play completely different and honestly? They are practically opposites.

You're the one that started the comparisons by comparing FT to KO Punch(in which KO punch is clearly superior as well).
And you can't say jigglypuff doesn't kill as early as cloud,

Even without rage that setup kills as early as 25%, on average 30%. And gimps can kill just as early. And she really doesn't -rely- on rest for kills. Up-tilt and bair kill well, as does getting an f-smash off a read, or landing a sing or rollout(which does happen)

 

[PapaJ]

Well, it comes out faster than Fsmash. With proper reading and timing, it's actually not as hard to land as you're making it out to be. Saying you can force Cloud to use his limit break by getting him offstage isn't a solution either. Sure, he might need to use it offstage, but the problem is getting him there. I'm not talking about bad Cloud players either. I'm talking about good ones who excel at spacing and defensive play and are up against characters who cannot zone him out well. In matchups like these, Cloud gets his limit break several times per two stock round. FT kills far too early for how easy it is for him charge his limit break.



Rest also has much less range and is incredibly punishable if missed.


On topic, I really don't think he needs a ledge snap. Considering his power, range, mobility and zoning capabilities (charging limit break is actually a very good tool to force players to approach), I don't think his recovery needs an improvement. I think players greatly underestimate how high he jumps and aren't using his walljumps effectively. Kirby doesn't always snap to ledge. I'm fairly sure Ike doesn't either. They both require you to sweetspot the ledge. Why should Cloud be any different?

As for whether or not he's balanced, it's kind of hard to say. He's good at spacing and has pretty good frame data, especially for the raw power and range he brings. He has a projectile as well and charging limit pretty much forces an approach. He seems pretty good all over, safe for his recovery (which I think people are seriously underrating). I don't really think he needs to be rebalanced.

It's faster, by two frames, but has severely less range. The problem is getting there? Using a god damn back throw or aerial string. After that he has no counter and him using almost any aerial will put him below the ledge forcing an Up B. Not to mention you're thinking all Clouds will use FT when in reality SIde B is probably the best options. Frame 10 and Super armor frame six as well as twenty six damage and good KB. Furthermore, are these being done in tournaments reliably? If not, then it's you still being bad at the game. I'd also like to point out FT has 80 frames of endlag meaning you can punish with any smash attack in the game and charge some. I feel like you should also know Rest comes out on frames 2 to 4 has has Iframes from 1 through 27. SO jiggs can use this move if she reads an attack due to IFrames.

I feel like you're one of those players who, instead of looking at characters objectively something bad happens to you a few times and you say "X move should be nerfed'. I will repeat. Either show Clouds getting successive FT's in tournaments and them winning the set. If not he is NOT OP and doesn't require nerfs.

Actually - and I want to clarify - this thread is actually about if Cloud needs changing at all, nothing particularly about nerfs. Infact, one of the only things I've agreed with so far has been that Climhazzard should snap to ledge, and that would actively be buffing him. -and it's not all about if he's winning tourneys IMO, I think certain characters really flip the game's balance in very bizarre, uncomfortable ways, and Cloud is turning out to be one of the worst offenders since his MUs are looking more and more wildly juxtaposed by the day. Not necessarily "strong", but definitely one of few characters who's opponent's counter-picks are gonna matter maybe a bit too much.

If anything, I just want to close down the extremeness of his MUs down so Greninja and Mario don't utterly cream him with a single push-box and any characters that struggle against him don't feel like the MU has no answers (Which I understand might actually just fix itself with time and knowledge.). -and by general consensus, I think most people don't find any of Cloud's MUs "too good" but I've lurked enough to know that some people already hate the fact all it takes is a good push to kill him. -chances are if Cloud does get changed, he'll be marginally buffed at this rate, and I don't mind that.

When it comes to my personal opinion, I think a couple of Cloud's moves should be neutered, sure (Most notably F-smash, which has some serious jank properties. U-air could maybe do with one since that hitbox lasts forever, but I don't think it's wholly problematic.), but I'm not gonna say no to people wanting Climhazzard to snap to ledge. I play - and enjoy - Cloud, too. I just wish his MUs didn't feel so generally one-sided. He feels pretty imbalanced (Not OP.) and that's unfortunate.

(Also, side-point, yeah, I'm agreeing with you that Finishing Touch is not that powerful at all, I don't see an issue with a move that kills at 60% if it's that difficult to hit with. I should know, I try all too often. lol)

My apologies I wrote the above while I was tired. However, I do feel that Cloud is fine as is. His Uair is basically a reverse of C.Falon and ZSS. A smaller hitbox but it lingers vs a larger hitbox but is shorter. Fsmash isn't as bad either. It comes out frame 19 the same as C.Falcon and overall does the same amount of damage, with Clouds having a chance of dealing less. Furthermore, Falcons Fsmash has an FAF of sixty vs Clouds FAF of sixty four and the way Falcon does his Fsmash is safer then Clouds (This part might be placebo but C.Falcon takes a step back, a step forward, and goes back to where he was stanidng whereas Cloud does a step back, step forward, and his position moves forward making him closer to the opponent this might be based off of bad memory).

Im using Falcon as a reference mostly due to similar frame data for his Fsmash and the reverse of their Uairs as an example. But at any rate I don't think nerfs are due. It took forever for the DLC characters (Mostly Ryu and Roy) to be used, competently, in tourney scenes so I feel like we need to wait to get more tourney data and see where they stand.