Should Cloud be rebalanced?

[MarioMeteor]

Saying "just don't shield it" isn't really a solution, sometimes it's the fastest reaction you have, or they catch you shield-stopping, etc. You might just even wanna hold an advantageous spot for a powerful OoS option (Most notably with characters that have killing forward/back throws if you're close to a ledge.), and since F-smash hits 3 times, you can't even spot dodge it to hold that position. -and again, there's also a problem with it beating at least one counter, which is a problem in and of itself.

I'm not saying "It's something that I literally can never beat." because that would make me an idiot, it's a damned F-smash, but again, the move is janky enough that it doesn't even matter if I see it coming sometimes, and that "sometimes" is really irritating, because dying when you made a defensive move that has a slim chance of being randomly unsafe is not something you want in a game.

Also, if you space it correctly, the move covers some characters' rolls in, so even rolls aren't guaranteed to be safe in certain situations.

I'm just pointing out that the move has a few wild properties to it that make it far more above average than if it was just a strong, moderately fast F-smash. -again, I play Cloud enough for this to be something that's happened from both sides of the situation multiple times, so I can tell you with confidence that I'm not the only one having a problem with Cloud's F-smash.

No, I'm pretty sure you are. Any multi-hit move is going to beat a counter, and I've only been shield-poked by it when my shield was too small. Not to mention the fact that it's one of Cloud's few non-limit reliable KO moves.

 

[GHNeko]

The counter he's probably talking about is Greninja's and in the thread highlighting Cloud's fsmash beating Greninja's counter; its basically pointed out that Greninja's counter is problematic on its own. But instead of attributing it to the actual problem, Substitution's wacky design, Conn placed blame on Cloud's fsmash. <_>

 

[Conn1496]

No, I'm pretty sure you are. Any multi-hit move is going to beat a counter, and I've only been shield-poked by it when my shield was too small. Not to mention the fact that it's one of Cloud's few non-limit reliable KO moves.

I literally never said that the move couldn't be beat. I'm just saying it has properties that most F-smashes could only dream of while already being above average. -and that's the problem. Yeah, the shield poking thing is kinda situational, but the fact it even shield pokes as well as it does is kind of a problem for a kill move.

Most counter moves will beat out most multi-hit moves since the rehits are often too weak or too slow. Cloud's is a quick, solid 3 hits in succession which deal relatively good amounts of damage. Infact, the they tend to trade with most moves that counter it - most notably if the the third hit is the one trading.

-and yeah, it's one of his few reliable non-limit KOs, but the issue would be more than fixed if they changed to move to not be so obnoxious against shields and counters.

The counter he's probably talking about is Greninja's and in the thread highlighting Cloud's fsmash beating Greninja's counter; its basically pointed out that Greninja's counter is problematic on its own. But instead of attributing it to the actual problem, Substitution's wacky design, Conn placed blame on Cloud's fsmash. <_>

Greninja's is the first to spring to mind, sure, but even counting Greninja's weaknesses in relation to his counter, it's still incredibly irritating. I've also had Cloud's F-Smash also beat Lucario's atleast once, and I'm sure I've had it atleast trade (Usually favourably.) with a couple of others.

I personally don't think there's too much issue with Greninja's counter considering it's also a fairly good kill move (The move seems to be more about the actual hit than the counter properties, which is a bizarre way to balance a move, but not inherently bad.), and looking at it in the bigger picture, Cloud's F-smash is probably slightly more problematic. I feel both moves have issues, but I feel Cloud's F-smash has more of them. That's personal opinion, but there are way more scenarios where Cloud's F-smash feels it's going beyond it's intended purpose compared to scenarios where counters are at fault IMO - even when including Greninja's counter, even if it is "bad".

 

[GHNeko]

Lucario's counter wasnt perfect in Brawl nor is it perfect here. If Kurogane Hammer is to be trusted, the attack is only invincible Frame 1-7 but hits on Frame 28.

That's a counter that can lose to attacks as well as Greninjas.

It's fine to think that Fsmash is problematic as an opinion. But if you want to convince other people and not have your point get consistently shot down, then you're going to have to bring a lot more to the table then what you've brought so far.

 

[Conn1496]

Lucario's counter wasnt perfect in Brawl nor is it perfect here. If Kurogane Hammer is to be trusted, the attack is only invincible Frame 1-7 but hits on Frame 28.

That's a counter that can lose to attacks as well as Greninjas.

It's fine to think that Fsmash is problematic as an opinion. But if you want to convince other people and not have your point get consistently shot down, then you're going to have to bring a lot more to the table then what you've brought so far.

That's fair TBH, I just feel it should be looked into - it's kinda difficult for me to look into it on my own for multiple reasons. Again, it's mostly my experience and some theory-work I'm debating with, so admittedly, I don't have solid evidence.

I mean, I'm never gonna be one to say "____ needs nerfing." just because I get hit by it more than a few times, so my opinions on F-smash aren't even out of irritation (If that were the case, I'd be more likely to say Link's U-smash needs nerfing, but I'm more than aware it doesn't.), it's more that being on the dealing end of Cloud's F-smash literally never feels honest to me as a Cloud player.

-and considering evidence points towards two (admittedly flawed) counters at the very least are able to outright fail against this already pretty comparatively powerful F-smash (Including it's already established ability to shield poke.), I'd honestly atleast look into tweaking the move so this isn't the case. How, though, is a totally different issue.

Again, I think the thing with Lucario and Greninja's counters more just a weird design philosophy on the moves' behalf, as opposed to them being "broken", considering both can kill (I'm not sure if Lucario's is reliable or as early as Greninja's, just throwing that out there.), and both have vulnerable frames that they can be knocked out of (Though I've never really personally had a problem with it myself. -though I am intrigued about if there are other moves that are as problematic for these counters too.).

 

[GHNeko]

Nah you cool *****.

I do stand by my original post.

A topic like this has its purpose. I just wish it was made further down the line.

 

[Conn1496]

Nah you cool *****.

I do stand by my original post.

A topic like this has its purpose. I just wish it was made further down the line.

Even I got a little skeptical myself when the like... -4th/5th person said it, not gonna lie. lol

-but I do think there's never a time that's "too early" to be thinking about it, and discussing first impressions - especially considering we're closing in on what could be our final chances to get balance patches and move fixes.

 

[GHNeko]

The only reason why I think its too early is because there isnt enough solid data to back a lot of suggestions and thoughts.

The data that we do have can simply be outliers and/or the whole community not adapting enough to the character to come up with appropriate counterplay.

There are still people that think that Cloud is ridiculously easy to gimp; and while that was the case at first; we Clouds are adapting to that and are finding ourselves recovering much more frequently and the counterplay to our adaptation has yet to be found or made consistent yet.

This goes for the whole character.

Thinking about it is fine, but discussion wont lead to much for reasons I just stated. This probably would have been better in the Discord chat imo.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I agree with everyone else about Climhazzard should ledgesnap (It would be very useful for us mains) as for a nerf i think
F-smash should be nerfed imo.

 

[GHNeko]

I really dont get the desire for Climhazzard buffs when the ease of being gimped outside of recovering poorly only matters in a handful of match ups...

 

[Rubiss]

I really dont get the desire for Climhazzard buffs when the ease of being gimped outside of recovering poorly only matters in a handful of match ups...

Me either. It's not like Kirby or Ike need it. Not sure why Cloud is in need of one when those two seem fine without it.

 

[Conn1496]

Me either. It's not like Kirby or Ike need it. Not sure why Cloud is in need of one when those two seem fine without it.

I think it's more down to the fact that Climhazzard is easier to beat than Aether and Final Cutter. -that and Climhazzard doesn't even snap on the downswing unless you're miles up.

I guess it just irritates Cloud players that theirs is the only recovery that doesn't ledge snap (out of limit), so they're vulnerable to a couple of really cheesy strategies.

 

[GHNeko]

cheesy strats are generally gimmicky and you shouldnt be falling them over and over.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Walking forward and just spamming up tilt is not some auto-win button/action for Ryu.

You should try Ryu some time.

 

[Bobert]

F-Smash is strong but it's pretty punishable to be honest. I don't think he has any overwhelming strengths or weaknesses.

 

[Conn1496]

cheesy strats are generally gimmicky and you shouldnt be falling them over and over.

That's true, but some of them are nigh-unavoidable. Most notable in the Greninja or Mario MU where they can just waterpush you clean away from the ledge because you literally can't do **** about it. I think people just want a way to get out of those situations, if anything.

-going back to the Ike and/or Kirby comparison though, I dunno how the other two fair against those moves either, so best case scenario, I don't think Cloud's recovery should be better than either of theirs.

 

[Rubiss]

That's true, but some of them are nigh-unavoidable. Most notable in the Greninja or Mario MU where they can just waterpush you clean away from the ledge because you literally can't do **** about it. I think people just want a way to get out of those situations, if anything.

-going back to the Ike and/or Kirby comparison though, I dunno how the other two fair against those moves either, so best case scenario, I don't think Cloud's recovery should be better than either of theirs.

Any vertical heavy recovery is poor against Hydropump/Fludd. Little Mac, Ike, Kirby, Marth/Lucina (to a degree), Link/Toon Link, Shulk, Captain Falcon, Charizard, etc. Not to say all it takes a single Hydropump/Fludd to beat these characters, but they have to be careful about their recovery against Greninja and Mario. You don't really want to recover high, especially against Greninja.

 

[Conn1496]

Any vertical heavy recovery is poor against Hydropump/Fludd. Little Mac, Ike, Kirby, Marth/Lucina (to a degree), Link/Toon Link, Shulk, Captain Falcon, Charizard, etc. Not to say all it takes a single Hydropump/Fludd to beat these characters, but they have to be careful about their recovery against Greninja and Mario. You don't really want to recover high, especially against Greninja.

Yeah, but the height window Cloud has to safely recover at is kind of ridiculous comparatively to most others. He basically has to always go above the ledge to recover, or go so low he's predictable, and his move isn't particularly quick to snap to the ledge or good at protecting him. Depending on the stage, a lot of those other recoveries can protect you enough that it doesn't feel hopeless recovering, and a few of them have other recovery options. (Depending on the stage, a couple of those recoveries will actually kill you as Cloud if you're trying to recover too, that's worth mentioning.)

I do see why people don't have an issue with Climhazzard, and personally, I don't find issue with having to sweetspot the ledge - what irritates me though is the punish window for it is huge if something goes wrong - even if it goes right, there's still a chance you'll outright just lose, because the move is so poor at protecting you. Mac's recovery probably has less punish options, which is saying something.

I guess whether his other tools make up for it or not is kind of a different discussion though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I literally never said that the move couldn't be beat. I'm just saying it has properties that most F-smashes could only dream of while already being above average. -and that's the problem. Yeah, the shield poking thing is kinda situational, but the fact it even shield pokes as well as it does is kind of a problem for a kill move.

And I literally never said that you said that it couldn't be beat, what I'm saying is that you shouldn't be complaining about the move at all, because there's nothing wrong with it. And FYI, every move shield pokes if your shield is small enough.

Most counter moves will beat out most multi-hit moves since the rehits are often too weak or too slow. Cloud's is a quick, solid 3 hits in succession which deal relatively good amounts of damage. Infact, the they tend to trade with most moves that counter it - most notably if the the third hit is the one trading.

Then don't counter it? This really doesn't seem to be this big of a problem. I see counters get beat all the time.

-and yeah, it's one of his few reliable non-limit KOs, but the issue would be more than fixed if they changed to move to not be so obnoxious against shields and counters.

Right. So let's "fix" Pit and Mii Gunner's forward smash. Oh, and Link's.

 

[Lyled]

I feel that dsmash should be made more consistent. The fact that people fall out of it fairly often is an issue. I think that it is silly when dsmash can be teched also.

 

[GHNeko]

What percents do people start falling out of Dsmash? I've rarely had it happen myself.

 

[Conn1496]

And I literally never said that you said that it couldn't be beat, what I'm saying is that you shouldn't be complaining about the move at all, because there's nothing wrong with it. And FYI, every move shield pokes if your shield is small enough.

Yeah, but Cloud's F-Smash seems far too good at it for a powerful F-Smash, that's my issue with it. -and to be fair, I'm free to complain about any move I like if I don't like it, that's kind of why it's an opinion. You might not agree with it, but I'm more than entitled to say I don't like the way something is.

Then don't counter it? This really doesn't seem to be this big of a problem. I see counters get beat all the time.

-again, I said it before, but you can't just throw out a "Then don't ____." response and expect me to just agree with it, because sometimes it's the best reaction you've got. Not every one has perfect split second decision-making 100% of the time. Sometimes, a "sub-optimal" option is even the better one. It's generally a bad habit to say "Just don't ____." when it comes to an argument IMO because it breeds a kind of mindset that lets the game stay out of balance. If people had said the same about things like Hoo-Hah, we wouldn't be anywhere with the meta. -and I'm not gonna start saying F-Smash is as powerful as Hoo-Hah because I'm not a moron, but I'm still gonna say it's a problem.

Right. So let's "fix" Pit and Mii Gunner's forward smash. Oh, and Link's.

The difference with these is that Pit's F-Smash and Mii Gunner's are much, much weaker there's far less shield-stun and damage. The Mii Gunner's also doesn't give counters an issue from my experience.

Link's is a different issue, mostly because the two hits are basically separate, so there's a whole mindgame around the will-they-won't-they of that. That, I can totally accept. It's also not as good at punishing shields or hitting counters (-as is the same for Pit's actually.).

I don't feel there's anything to fix with these attacks - they're similar, sure, but the properties are different enough that they never feel unfair. Cloud's F-Smash has a very specific way of causing a lot of pretty unfair crap to happen, and I've been on both sides of it.

I don't mind solid evidence, but when we're just banging theory and potential fallacy together like this, I don't feel either of us are getting anywhere with the discussion. lol -trust me, as much as I'd like to lab this kinda stuff and find solid evidence myself, it's hard when you only personally own the 3DS version. I'd be right on comparing Cloud's F-smash to similar moves and if it's got somehow unfair properties, because even if I was wrong, I'd be likely learning ways to get around it in the process.

I feel that dsmash should be made more consistent. The fact that people fall out of it fairly often is an issue. I think that it is silly when dsmash can be teched also.

What percents do people start falling out of Dsmash? I've rarely had it happen myself.

I've never had this one happen to me, it's weird to even think that people are slipping or teching out of it... It sounds like it could be a very situational thing, but an incredibly sucky one at that. Definitely needs looking into.

 

[~Skelly~]

Aside from giving him a ledgesnap, making his DSmash untechable and maaaybe buffing his grabs, I personally don't think Cloud needs to be rebalanced. He has his strengths and his weaknesses.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Something definitely needs to be done with down smash. I've seen it stage spike before. That doesn't even make sense logically (or physically).

Yeah, but Cloud's F-Smash seems far too good at it for a powerful F-Smash, that's my issue with it. -and to be fair, I'm free to complain about any move I like if I don't like it, that's kind of why it's an opinion. You might not agree with it, but I'm more than entitled to say I don't like the way something is.



-again, I said it before, but you can't just throw out a "Then don't ____." response and expect me to just agree with it, because sometimes it's the best reaction you've got. Not every one has perfect split second decision-making 100% of the time. Sometimes, a "sub-optimal" option is even the better one. It's generally a bad habit to say "Just don't ____." when it comes to an argument IMO because it breeds a kind of mindset that lets the game stay out of balance. If people had said the same about things like Hoo-Hah, we wouldn't be anywhere with the meta. -and I'm not gonna start saying F-Smash is as powerful as Hoo-Hah because I'm not a moron, but I'm still gonna say it's a problem.



The difference with these is that Pit's F-Smash and Mii Gunner's are much, much weaker there's far less shield-stun and damage. The Mii Gunner's also doesn't give counters an issue from my experience.

Link's is a different issue, mostly because the two hits are basically separate, so there's a whole mindgame around the will-they-won't-they of that. That, I can totally accept. It's also not as good at punishing shields or hitting counters (-as is the same for Pit's actually.).

I don't feel there's anything to fix with these attacks - they're similar, sure, but the properties are different enough that they never feel unfair. Cloud's F-Smash has a very specific way of causing a lot of pretty unfair crap to happen, and I've been on both sides of it.

I don't mind solid evidence, but when we're just banging theory and potential fallacy together like this, I don't feel either of us are getting anywhere with the discussion. lol -trust me, as much as I'd like to lab this kinda stuff and find solid evidence myself, it's hard when you only personally own the 3DS version. I'd be right on comparing Cloud's F-smash to similar moves and if it's got somehow unfair properties, because even if I was wrong, I'd be likely learning ways to get around it in the process.




I've never had this one happen to me, it's weird to even think that people are slipping or teching out of it... It sounds like it could be a very situational thing, but an incredibly sucky one at that. Definitely needs looking into.

Look, this is ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with Cloud's forward smash. You have almost a quarter of a second to react to it. If you're worried about getting shield poked then watch your shield. This is like complaining that Dedede's forward smash shield pokes too easily.

 

[Conn1496]

Something definitely needs to be done with down smash. I've seen it stage spike before. That doesn't even make sense logically (or physically).

Look, this is ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with Cloud's forward smash. You have almost a quarter of a second to react to it. If you're worried about getting shield poked then watch your shield. This is like complaining that Dedede's forward smash shield pokes too easily.

It's nothing to do with the reaction times, it's the actual hit properties I'm bothered about. The fact I can react to it and still be punished a fair amount of the time is the part that irritates me. Any move that forces me to get used to a very specific one or two reactions or outright be KOd is problematic, IMO, and that's - again - an opinion that not everyone is going to share.

-and while the same could be said for other moves, I think Cloud's F-Smash is big enough and offender that it needs looking into from a balance standpoint.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

. jabs and tilts can beat it out

l've been grabbed out of it once, actually.

Cloud maybe needs some adjustments... just not the kind you're asking for.

He is balanced, his neutral is super solid and limit's are very scary but the lack of ledge snapping and crappy recovery balances it out pretty well imo.

So much yes to these two.

Can we just learn the match-ups and give Cloud some time? Do you really think he'd seem totally balanced without knowing how to fight him? How do you expect to ace a quiz on a subject you've only heard of twice? l feel like Cloud's supposed to be a hybrid of Mac and lke. His best tools are his reach, neutral-game, and the threat of huge changes in momentum. He seems pretty good, but he's really squishy. PERFECT size and weight for combos and kinda easy to edgeguard (not as easy as you'd think, but it's still relevant). More like Mac, actually. Undoubtedly, the safest way to edgeguard them is with some windbox, a disjoint, Mac's dsmash (super salty about that one, actually. lt just feels super disrespectful. More so than wind/waterboxes), or a nice counter. When's the last time you've seen the Mac boards beg for a sweetspot on their up b or complain about a great trait their fsmash has?

Maybe fsmash is supposed to have a boatload of range and priority. Dsmash is obviously flawed in the first hit and has relatively short range compared to the rest of Cloud's attacks, while up smash mainly for juggling and covering ledgehops. Neither his Dsmash or Up smash have a lot of power and you'll rarely be in the position to kill early with them. Sure, Fsmash might seem to be a bit too much compensation, but it's pretty hard to land.

The big problem Cloud has his that he doesn't have safe guaranteed setups into LB specials. Falling nair can lead into almost anything, but only if you read their tech roll or if they don't tech at all (which is a blessing). Even then, the only real way to get the kill from a punish is with a LB special or punish the standard get-up with Fsmash. Cloud gets kills far more out of single hits than kill confirms, which keeps him from being INCREDIBLY OP. Not saying he's not a good character. Hell, he might even be top 10, in my incredibly biased opinion, but l don't really want to see him changed.

*Edit: falling up air will lead into itself, nair, and even FT on tall characters. Come to think of it, the up air has a pretty insane amount of hitstun in a game generally with pretty insignificant hitstun. lf anything, that's what l'd like to see changed. Either it's power or hitstun. Then again, Rosa's is stronger and that probably won't change, so...

 

[Top Boss]

I didn't read everything in this thread, but Cloud isn't broken or underwhelming at all. Here is what I would fix and what I think about other people's ideas:
Climhizzard is fine as is. Cloud needs some flaws for balance and whatnot. What's awesome about this(and Cloud in general) is that Cloud has ways to work around this flaw(you can sweetspot if you start up b right near the ledge, which is good when combined with a wall jump. He can also recover high, stall with blade beam, fend off edgeguarders with limit blade beam, etc).
F smash is fine as is(reasons already specified).
Finishing touch is actually pretty underwhelming imo(hard move to apply, but it can be used to an extent).
I would make it impossible to tech out of down smash, fix the up tilt hitbox, and make jab & cross slash connect better. thats all

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Cloud buff/nerf wishlist:
1: Climhazzard ledge snaps
2: Can't tech out of dsmash
3: Slightly less KO power on fsmash, around dsmash level
4: Better angle and more hitstun on dthrow
5: Hitboxes on certain moves fixed
6: can only use 1 blade beam at a time, like hadoken (did I spell that right?)

 

[TurboLink]

Right. So let's "fix" Pit and Mii Gunner's forward smash. Oh, and Link's.

What's wrong with Link's forward smash?

 

[MarioMeteor]

What's wrong with Link's forward smash?

Notice the " " around "fix."

 

[Denjinpachi]

(Please understand my interaction with smash 4 is limited to only this character, and D3 as a casual contender. But, please feel free to let me know what you think. These opinions of adjustment are from limited to my time with the game.)

Changes:

-Add a more acute angle in which his up-b is able to travel out to in its first part. Like how other blade characters can somewhat change the angle they travel with theirs. (Ike, roy, Marth, etc. can go straight, or mostly up, or also change trajectory by going more so left or right depending on the input. The second part needs to stay the same in that it sends him straight down.

-Change the knock back on down smash so people don't break, or "tech" out of it.

-Increase the speed of neutral B's start up, slightly increase travel speed. (Compensate by making only one projectile available at one time)

-Slightly reduce (VERY SLIGHT) kill power on F-Smash. Like another 5-7% when not at rage percentages. (0-50%)

-Increase active sweetspot window for up air (hard hit) to about 3/4 of the moves duration, but reduce its total active window a few frames. Move lasts really long, and should either be a kill move or a juggle move, not both, at least not at the same time anyway

-Increase amount of damage needed to be dealt, taken, or charged for limit break. The buffed "limit break" state should be accessible, but not spam-able so often in such a short duration in between each charge.

I believe that if you gain access to his limit break, then there shouldn't really be much complaints on either side. If he get it, he has to get in to use it to kill, and if he is off stage, it is burned on recovery, resetting the charge. That in itself is kind of balanced for the limit break state.

 

[Rubiss]

-Add a more acute angle in which his up-b is able to travel out to in its first part. Like how other blade characters can somewhat change the angle they travel with theirs. (Ike, roy, Marth, etc. can go straight, or mostly up, or also change trajectory by going more so left or right depending on the input. The second part needs to stay the same in that it sends him straight down.

I don't really see what this will do to improve Cloud. He already jumps pretty high. I don't think that move needs a buff quite honestly. It comes out on frame seven and is, surprisingly, really good out of shield. If we increase the angle at which he can travel, it makes it an even better option, since he can space the move even more.

-Change the knock back on down smash so people don't break, or "tech" out of it.

I agree with the thought behind this. It is pretty janky right now, but at the same time, you can avoid the second hit of Link's fsmash, Sheik's fsmash, etc. Should we fix it for them as well?

-Increase the speed of neutral B's start up, slightly increase travel speed. (Compensate by making only one projectile available at one time)

Not sure Cloud, who excels at spacing and zoning really needs a buff in this aspect. He can make anyone approach just by charging his limit break. He's a swordsmen character, not a ranged character. I don't think he needs blade beam to be any faster, even if it's at the cost of him only being able to use one at a time.

-Slightly reduce (VERY SLIGHT) kill power on F-Smash. Like another 5-7% when not at rage percentages. (0-50%)

Not really sure this will do anything to the move, but I have nothing really against it. Seems a bit unnecessary maybe.

-Increase active sweetspot window for up air (hard hit) to about 3/4 of the moves duration, but reduce its total active window a few frames. Move lasts really long, and should either be a kill move or a juggle move, not both, at least not at the same time anyway

I kind of agree with this. At the moment it lasts for 18 frames and considering an air dodge is only 25 frames, I really don't think this move should have as much knockback as it does, sweetspotted or not. Personally I would love if the knockback for this move got severally reduced or if the active frames dropped by like half. Greninja's uair lasts for 9 frames and it's a multihit move. Sheik's lasts for 20 (but Sheik is Sheik, so obviously hers will last for more than 2x Greninja's despite it being more or less the same move animation and usage wise). I don't think Cloud's should linger for as long as it does, considering it's not even multihit. It's just overly safe really. I would say Cloud should maybe lose 9 frames on uair. As for how long the sweetspot is on it... I would think it should only be a few frames. It is a sweetspot after all. It should be harder to land than a sourspot. So assuming his uair is 9 frames, I would say the sweetspot should be maybe 2-3 frames.

-Increase amount of damage needed to be dealt, taken, or charged for limit break. The buffed "limit break" state should be accessible, but not spam-able so often in such a short duration in between each charge.

This a thousand times over. The amount of times Cloud can get a limit break in a match is insane. While it is very easy for him to lose it, he gets it far too easily. Considering he can limit break cancel and charge in the air, quite honestly? I don't even think he should build limit from taking damage. That's just me though. Might be a bit too extreme.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I don't really see what this will do to improve Cloud. He already jumps pretty high. I don't think that move needs a buff quite honestly. It comes out on frame seven and is, surprisingly, really good out of shield. If we increase the angle at which he can travel, it makes it an even better option, since he can space the move even more.



I agree with the thought behind this. It is pretty janky right now, but at the same time, you can avoid the second hit of Link's fsmash, Sheik's fsmash, etc. Should we fix it for them as well?



Not sure Cloud, who excels at spacing and zoning really needs a buff in this aspect. He can make anyone approach just by charging his limit break. He's a swordsmen character, not a ranged character. I don't think he needs blade beam to be any faster, even if it's at the cost of him only being able to use one at a time.



Not really sure this will do anything to the move, but I have nothing really against it. Seems a bit unnecessary maybe.



I kind of agree with this. At the moment it lasts for 18 frames and considering an air dodge is only 25 frames, I really don't think this move should have as much knockback as it does, sweetspotted or not. Personally I would love if the knockback for this move got severally reduced or if the active frames dropped by like half. Greninja's uair lasts for 9 frames and it's a multihit move. Sheik's lasts for 20 (but Sheik is Sheik, so obviously hers will last for more than 2x Greninja's despite it being more or less the same move animation and usage wise). I don't think Cloud's should linger for as long as it does, considering it's not even multihit. It's just overly safe really. I would say Cloud should maybe lose 9 frames on uair. As for how long the sweetspot is on it... I would think it should only be a few frames. It is a sweetspot after all. It should be harder to land than a sourspot. So assuming his uair is 9 frames, I would say the sweetspot should be maybe 2-3 frames.




This a thousand times over. The amount of times Cloud can get a limit break in a match is insane. While it is very easy for him to lose it, he gets it far too easily. Considering he can limit break cancel and charge in the air, quite honestly? I don't even think he should build limit from taking damage. That's just me though. Might be a bit too extreme.

I inittially thought about the up-b adjustment more so for recovery more than any other use. it's cool that the move have some other uses, but in the end, as far as a "rebalance" he may as well have the same recovery design as the other sword users, even the two links can control their angles.

We should fix multiple moves with other characters as well, but if you think about it, the two part down smashes are a little more so for covering get up options, or reading rolls. but as far as F-Smashes (second hits), they are a bit more so like baits or punishes depending on the situation. of course, both types are just dependent on percent and DI, but yeah after a certain point everyone should have near guaranteed second hit follow ups to their smashes.

As far as my stance on the blade beam, its more so to normalize his use of good spacing tools. The recovery would be the same, but i noticed it comes out slightly slower than a typical projectile. However, by making it start faster, but he recovers the same, he retains his spacing tool, but loses the capability of spamming it. Now, he has to choose if he wants to occupy space, get damage, or anything along those lines. Not just "OH BOY LEMME USE MY PUURTY BEAM THING" and then just do it to force an approach.

Lastly, for the up air, i think that since he's a swordsman that's based on using critcal art like skills, and using magic to boost himself anyway, his blade retaining a hard-hitting property would make more sense to me. Making it last for like 12 frames, and have the active for like 9 would be even better. You have to time it strictly for the desired effect for a juggle, but now you have to hurry and dedicate to the kill option, but it has to be timed now more so because of the air dodge window. You have to either bait the air dodge, or be completely competent with it as a follow up.

 

[Rubiss]

I inittially thought about the up-b adjustment more so for recovery more than any other use. it's cool that the move have some other uses, but in the end, as far as a "rebalance" he may as well have the same recovery design as the other sword users, even the two links can control their angles.

We should fix multiple moves with other characters as well, but if you think about it, the two part down smashes are a little more so for covering get up options, or reading rolls. but as far as F-Smashes (second hits), they are a bit more so like baits or punishes depending on the situation. of course, both types are just dependent on percent and DI, but yeah after a certain point everyone should have near guaranteed second hit follow ups to their smashes.

As far as my stance on the blade beam, its more so to normalize his use of good spacing tools. The recovery would be the same, but i noticed it comes out slightly slower than a typical projectile. However, by making it start faster, but he recovers the same, he retains his spacing tool, but loses the capability of spamming it. Now, he has to choose if he wants to occupy space, get damage, or anything along those lines. Not just "OH BOY LEMME USE MY PUURTY BEAM THING" and then just do it to force an approach.

Lastly, for the up air, i think that since he's a swordsman that's based on using critcal art like skills, and using magic to boost himself anyway, his blade retaining a hard-hitting property would make more sense to me. Making it last for like 12 frames, and have the active for like 9 would be even better. You have to time it strictly for the desired effect for a juggle, but now you have to hurry and dedicate to the kill option, but it has to be timed now more so because of the air dodge window. You have to either bait the air dodge, or be completely competent with it as a follow up.

I really don't think Cloud's recovery needs a buff. It's his one real weakness and it should be exploited. I don't think any buff of any kind, including ledge snapping is really a good idea. He's already quite good and despite the limited time he has been out, has been doing well in tournaments. Whether the results are biased or not is not really my place to say, but I really don't think he needs a buff to his recovery. It'd be like giving Little Mac a buff to his aerials. It sucks for a reason.

As for blade beam, it comes out on frame 16. I really don't think that needs a buff. PK Fire starts on frame 21, Thunder Jolt on frame 19, and Water Shuriken on frame 20, for reference. Now Cloud's projectile does travel slower, but it starts up faster than Ness', Pikachu's and Greninja's. I honestly does not need to be any faster. Sure, Cloud has more endlag on his blade beam, with his First Active Frame being 61. Compared to Ness at frame 69, Pikachu and frame 58 and Greninja at frame 46 but his startup time is already really good.

 

[KittyKyat]

I think Cloud's fine the way he is. Fsmash is fairly punishable, Climhazzard has tons of ways to work around and it, while Cloud has a wonderful set of jumps and aerial mobility.

Funny enough the only thing people complain to me that's braindead is uair. Its good but not THAT good. Its not guarenteed like pre-patch Diddy lol

 

[Denjinpachi]

I think Cloud's fine the way he is. Fsmash is fairly punishable, Climhazzard has tons of ways to work around and it, while Cloud has a wonderful set of jumps and aerial mobility.

Funny enough the only thing people complain to me that's braindead is uair. Its good but not THAT good. Its not guarenteed like pre-patch Diddy lol

As he is, I think its pretty much fine to say that he is a stage bully. But he's cheeks when it comes to recovery lol. Which I think is pretty balanced, as far as character design goes. I was just noting how I'd like to see him if he underwent a "rebalance"

 

[KittyKyat]

As he is, I think its pretty much fine to say that he is a stage bully. But he's cheeks when it comes to recovery lol. Which I think is pretty balanced, as far as character design goes. I was just noting how I'd like to see him if he underwent a "rebalance"

I was responding to the thread as a whole. Throwing out my own simple stance on the subject, and I can understand your viewpoint

 

[Denjinpachi]

I was responding to the thread as a whole. Throwing out my own simple stance on the subject, and I can understand your viewpoint

Good to know. But if you were to make any kind of changes, hypothetically for the fun of just recommendation, what would they be? As offbeat as this could sound, it'd be cool to actually be able to use summons. But that's just from a fan-based perspective.

 

[KittyKyat]

Good to know. But if you were to make any kind of changes, hypothetically for the fun of just recommendation, what would they be? As offbeat as this could sound, it'd be cool to actually be able to use summons. But that's just from a fan-based perspective.

Meteorain as a special, would be cool if were talking additions. Having all of the limit breaks on Cloud would be great. Going by what you said, Id love to see Knights of the Round as a final smash.

In balance, Its hard to say my opinion on what changes I personally would love, other than maybe guarentee some combos from downthrow but that is all that Id literally want from a balance perspectibe.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Meteorain as a special, would be cool if were talking additions. Having all of the limit breaks on Cloud would be great. Going by what you said, Id love to see Knights of the Round as a final smash.

In balance, Its hard to say my opinion on what changes I personally would love, other than maybe guarentee some combos from downthrow but that is all that Id literally want from a balance perspectibe.

I can agree with that too. It seems like, as far as balance goes, cloud is only really missing combos from a throw is the only thing he is missing from his stage game.