Should Cloud be rebalanced?

[Conn1496]

Can people stop mentioning throw combos? Like, seriously... Out of all the things Cloud needs, throw combos are literally the last thing that would be fair or sane to add to Cloud. I know his throws are bad, but literally all his other moves are pretty good or above average.

It's not even like he needs to be attacking shields half the time, his bait game is strong, and his grab still gets them out of shield anyway, that's all that really matters, it's not like everyone else has throw combos, either. IIRC, Fox - arguably a top 5 character - doesn't have any notable ones from my memory...

-also, in relation to F-smash, after a bit of extra time playing, I don't think the move is as janky as I first thought, but it's still pretty damn powerful for it's speed. Probably not enough to be nerfed any considering his options to kill early out of limit basically are "just F-smash", but definitely notable...

Also, my two cents on limit in general is pretty half-half, I kinda get what people mean about limit being a little obnoxious, but from my experience, any good player won't let you get it more than a handful of times in a single stock, and they're only a one-shot thing anyway, so it's not like you're getting a free 20% with each limit or anything. I actually find myself relying on other moves for kills, or just keeping limit charged for the arguably better movement options, which is bothersome since the limit moves are some of his cooler moves, and it basically stops you from spacing with Blade Beam too. -they're powerful, sure, but pretty predictable all things considered. I don't think there's personally a damn thing wrong with limit - even down to the charge rate. If anything I'd say it's a tad underwhelming. I know for definite people are over-valuing it's threat when they're against Cloud. I find myself basically throwing them at people just so I can pressure with blade beam again without worrying about it, or saving them just to recover.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Can people stop mentioning throw combos? Like, seriously... Out of all the things Cloud needs, throw combos are literally the last thing that would be fair or sane to add to Cloud. I know his throws are bad, but literally all his other moves are pretty good or above average.

It's not even like he needs to be attacking shields half the time, his bait game is strong, and his grab still gets them out of shield anyway, that's all that really matters, it's not like everyone else has throw combos, either. IIRC, Fox - arguably a top 5 character - doesn't have any notable ones from my memory...

-also, in relation to F-smash, after a bit of extra time playing, I don't think the move is as janky as I first thought, but it's still pretty damn powerful for it's speed. Probably not enough to be nerfed any considering his options to kill early out of limit basically are "just F-smash", but definitely notable...

Also, my two cents on limit in general is pretty half-half, I kinda get what people mean about limit being a little obnoxious, but from my experience, any good player won't let you get it more than a handful of times in a single stock, and they're only a one-shot thing anyway, so it's not like you're getting a free 20% with each limit or anything. I actually find myself relying on other moves for kills, or just keeping limit charged for the arguably better movement options, which is bothersome since the limit moves are some of his cooler moves, and it basically stops you from spacing with Blade Beam too. -they're powerful, sure, but pretty predictable all things considered. I don't think there's personally a damn thing wrong with limit - even down to the charge rate. If anything I'd say it's a tad underwhelming. I know for definite people are over-valuing it's threat when they're against Cloud. I find myself basically throwing them at people just so I can pressure with blade beam again without worrying about it, or saving them just to recover.

I don't know. I think that his throw game could benefit from the buff because of the fact that he is primarily a stage controlling character. It's not really that his "bait" game is good, its the punish game. A bait game is more of what a player themselves would do to elicit an action to punish, and if cloud is never awarded the opportunity to punish off of a bait, then he seems relatively limited.(In the sense of a grab punish) Being able to at least start a string with a grab isn't that ridiculous sounding when you create a character that is ground based. That's just speaking of a characters design in general. That'd be like saying any other character shouldn't have any good follow ups off a throw period because fox can't do it as you had mentioned.

Also, yes shield grabbing is a completely possible tactic, but also another tactic that goes out for everyone to have across the board. So, anyone can shield grab, but that doesn't mean that it's an exceptional option by any means. What about when you punish with a grab? or grab a person that is whiffing, or anything along those lines? Throwing your opponent away from you, while still being the "stage controlling/bully" type of character is relatively useless if you can't follow up. Sure I agree that its a "get off me" capable move, but in the terms of buffing, or even readjusting then its perfectly normal to want cloud to be capable of follow ups off of a grab. not all of them, but at least one.

The last fair, or sane adjustment to Cloud would be if he could recover consistently from greater distances off stage. But wanting a solid lead into a combo game isn't the worst thing you can do to buff a character. In fact, Im surprised more characters besides the notable top characters in this game are lacking that feature. If you wanted him to be considered unfair, or busted, then it would be if he retained his limit break if he snapped to the ledge. Or if he could "stack" charges of his limit break. But something along the lines of a throw starting a combo, that's not ridiculous. At that point, that's nearly normalizing him.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I don't know. I think that his throw game could benefit from the buff because of the fact that he is primarily a stage controlling character. It's not really that his "bait" game is good, its the punish game. A bait game is more of what a player themselves would do to elicit an action to punish, and if cloud is never awarded the opportunity to punish off of a bait, then he seems relatively limited.(In the sense of a grab punish) Being able to at least start a string with a grab isn't that ridiculous sounding when you create a character that is ground based. That's just speaking of a characters design in general. That'd be like saying any other character shouldn't have any good follow ups off a throw period because fox can't do it as you had mentioned.

Also, yes shield grabbing is a completely possible tactic, but also another tactic that goes out for everyone to have across the board. So, anyone can shield grab, but that doesn't mean that it's an exceptional option by any means. What about when you punish with a grab? or grab a person that is whiffing, or anything along those lines? Throwing your opponent away from you, while still being the "stage controlling/bully" type of character is relatively useless if you can't follow up. Sure I agree that its a "get off me" capable move, but in the terms of buffing, or even readjusting then its perfectly normal to want cloud to be capable of follow ups off of a grab. not all of them, but at least one.

The last fair, or sane adjustment to Cloud would be if he could recover consistently from greater distances off stage. But wanting a solid lead into a combo game isn't the worst thing you can do to buff a character. In fact, Im surprised more characters besides the notable top characters in this game are lacking that feature. If you wanted him to be considered unfair, or busted, then it would be if he retained his limit break if he snapped to the ledge. Or if he could "stack" charges of his limit break. But something along the lines of a throw starting a combo, that's not ridiculous. At that point, that's nearly normalizing him.

Exactly, I mean we don't want to end up with another Marth

 

[Denjinpachi]

Exactly, I mean we don't want to end up with another Marth

Because I mean, people want diversity in character movement and their move lists, but if you try to shut down expansion on the new characters' discussion of potential improvement, then they are only gonna get cut down into pre-set arch types. (FE Characters are the easiest example)

 

[Rubiss]

I don't know. I think that his throw game could benefit from the buff because of the fact that he is primarily a stage controlling character. It's not really that his "bait" game is good, its the punish game. A bait game is more of what a player themselves would do to elicit an action to punish, and if cloud is never awarded the opportunity to punish off of a bait, then he seems relatively limited.(In the sense of a grab punish) Being able to at least start a string with a grab isn't that ridiculous sounding when you create a character that is ground based. That's just speaking of a characters design in general. That'd be like saying any other character shouldn't have any good follow ups off a throw period because fox can't do it as you had mentioned.

Also, yes shield grabbing is a completely possible tactic, but also another tactic that goes out for everyone to have across the board. So, anyone can shield grab, but that doesn't mean that it's an exceptional option by any means. What about when you punish with a grab? or grab a person that is whiffing, or anything along those lines? Throwing your opponent away from you, while still being the "stage controlling/bully" type of character is relatively useless if you can't follow up. Sure I agree that its a "get off me" capable move, but in the terms of buffing, or even readjusting then its perfectly normal to want cloud to be capable of follow ups off of a grab. not all of them, but at least one.

The last fair, or sane adjustment to Cloud would be if he could recover consistently from greater distances off stage. But wanting a solid lead into a combo game isn't the worst thing you can do to buff a character. In fact, Im surprised more characters besides the notable top characters in this game are lacking that feature. If you wanted him to be considered unfair, or busted, then it would be if he retained his limit break if he snapped to the ledge. Or if he could "stack" charges of his limit break. But something along the lines of a throw starting a combo, that's not ridiculous. At that point, that's nearly normalizing him.

You want to buff Cloud's throws and his recovery? Why don't we just buff Little's Mac's recovery too and perhaps give him some aerial spikes? Or perhaps give Sheik much more KO power? Characters have weaknesses, they have things they do not excel in. If we buff Cloud's throws and recovery then what exactly is his weakness? Good spacing, good recovery, good throws, good kill power, limit, fast mobility.

None of what you're suggesting here is fair by any means. Cloud should have a mediocre recovery. Cloud shouldn't have throw combos. His on-stage presence is great. He literally cannot be zoned out due to limit break.This isn't balancing him, this is making him overpowered.

 

[Denjinpachi]

You want to buff Cloud's throws and his recovery? Why don't we just buff Little's Mac's recovery too and perhaps give him some aerial spikes? Or perhaps give Sheik much more KO power? Characters have weaknesses, they have things they do not excel in. If we buff Cloud's throws and recovery then what exactly is his weakness? Good spacing, good recovery, good throws, good kill power, limit, fast mobility.

None of what you're suggesting here is fair by any means. Cloud should have a mediocre recovery. Cloud shouldn't have throw combos. His on-stage presence is great. He literally cannot be zoned out due to limit break.This isn't balancing him, this is making him overpowered.

I think you're considering a good players application to the tools he has, and you're not really seeing what im saying. good "spacing" is another aspect that is subject to a players capability. His mobility is good, on the stage. Which is what I was intent on saying could be normalized by just saying that you shouldn't be relying solely on punish game for a character. I have made a post a little earlier talking about how you could readjust him in different aspects, even pertaining to his kill power. I even touched on drawing back his limit break.

So, with that I think you are misunderstanding in what I mean. I was referring to him as if he were being readjusted or "rebalanced" like the original quote of the thread had intended. I gave my two cents on what that adjustment would've been if you would like to see that one as well. His weaknesses are his aerial mobility, but you simply said he had great "mobility." Ill assume with that you meant on the ground, and also including his jump. His run speed is admittedly good, and his jumps are unarguably well made. But, vertical coverage is pointless if it isn't complemented by horizontal gain as well. No point in jumping high if you cant move forward, which was why I recommended the adjustment to the up-b in the earlier post. That adjustment was made with the thought of reducing his power as a stage controlling character, making him overall a decent character, but not overpowered in the full design of his tool set.

And if you are implying that he cannot be zoned because he has a limited buff that has to be charged by hitting, charging, and getting hit, then you have trouble zoning him. You're implying from personal experience things that you assume other people have trouble with. Play a capable ZSS, pacman, or Villager with Cloud, then let me know how good he is at not being zoned out. I'd be glad to discuss things that could be done for other characters in another thread, or even privately, but as I mentioned my knowledge is limited to what I've gathered recently, and im only able to tell you what I know.

And as a basic observation, sheik doesn't need kill power, Mac doesn't need air spikes. Those are exaggerated comparisons to me simply saying that cloud should have reduced kill power on stage, should be able to survive getting bair'd one time by any character, and should have a reasonable follow up or starter for combos off a grab.

EDIT: I also discussed reducing the uses of his blade beam if you wanna check that out too. That's his only real zoning tool. The rest of it is based on the positioning and timing of his normal, which depends on the player.

 

[Rubiss]

I think you're considering a good players application to the tools he has, and you're not really seeing what im saying. good "spacing" is another aspect that is subject to a players capability. His mobility is good, on the stage. Which is what I was intent on saying could be normalized by just saying that you shouldn't be relying solely on punish game for a character. I have made a post a little earlier talking about how you could readjust him in different aspects, even pertaining to his kill power. I even touched on drawing back his limit break.

So, with that I think you are misunderstanding in what I mean. I was referring to him as if he were being readjusted or "rebalanced" like the original quote of the thread had intended. I gave my two cents on what that adjustment would've been if you would like to see that one as well. His weaknesses are his aerial mobility, but you simply said he had great "mobility." Ill assume with that you meant on the ground, and also including his jump. His run speed is admittedly good, and his jumps are unarguably well made. But, vertical coverage is pointless if it isn't complemented by horizontal gain as well. No point in jumping high if you cant move forward, which was why I recommended the adjustment to the up-b in the earlier post. That adjustment was made with the thought of reducing his power as a stage controlling character, making him overall a decent character, but not overpowered in the full design of his tool set.

And if you are implying that he cannot be zoned because he has a limited buff that has to be charged by hitting, charging, and getting hit, then you have trouble zoning him. You're implying from personal experience things that you assume other people have trouble with. Play a capable ZSS, pacman, or Villager with Cloud, then let me know how good he is at not being zoned out. I'd be glad to discuss things that could be done for other characters in another thread, or even privately, but as I mentioned my knowledge is limited to what I've gathered recently, and im only able to tell you what I know.

And as a basic observation, sheik doesn't need kill power, Mac doesn't need air spikes. Those are exaggerated comparisons to me simply saying that cloud should have reduced kill power on stage, should be able to survive getting bair'd one time by any character, and should have a reasonable follow up or starter for combos off a grab.

EDIT: I also discussed reducing the uses of his blade beam if you wanna check that out too. That's his only real zoning tool. The rest of it is based on the positioning and timing of his normal, which depends on the player.

That's more than re-balancing. That's completely changing the character. Reducing his kill power and increasing his aerial mobility changes him drastically. Cloud's aerials are all disjointed and cover him quite well. Does he really need better aerial movement? His range is quite good. We don't need someone zipping about in the air with a sword that long.

Limit charging forces approaches. It's just how it is. Cloud is very scary with his limit break. Are people going to sit there at let him charge up? No, they are going to approach, whether with a projectile or not. Look at any tournament set involving Cloud. No one simply lets him sit in a corner and charge limit. Here look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Stp-lVuzY&t=6m34s

SSB4 Rain Vs Nairo. At the 6:34 mark, their match starts. Notice throughout the match that Cloud, whenever he charges his limit break, is always approached? Cloud is not one you can easily camp. No one wants Cloud to get his limit break. He's dangerous with it. No one is simply going to sit around and watch him charge it up. They're going to try and force him to stop and move.

 

[Conn1496]

cloud should have reduced kill power on stage, should be able to survive getting bair'd one time by any character, and should have a reasonable follow up or starter for combos off a grab.

EDIT: I also discussed reducing the uses of his blade beam if you wanna check that out too. That's his only real zoning tool. The rest of it is based on the positioning and timing of his normal, which depends on the player.

I just wanted to focus on these points, because I think they're kind of misguided in terms of rebalancing Cloud.

Cloud's hitting power, and by correlation stage kill power, I'd argue, is one of his strongest traits. I wouldn't trade that for anything, for starters. I think this nerf would be a bit much, but even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be in the right direction for Cloud's feel at all. He's a pretty heavy sword user, his whole dynamic is to hit once and hit hard in order to KO or reset to neutral where his game flourishes, from what I gather of using him. Making him need to go offstage, or do air-based stuff will likely make him weaker not only substantially, but also as a playstyle. From what I read, his whole dynamic was planned that his hits were made to have weight to them, and that they certainly do. They hit like a truck TBH, and that's fine as is. (Actually, in general, you can't really cut his onstage KO power without cutting his KO power in general, which is one of his best traits. I just don't feel it.)

-as for the "should be able to survive getting B-air'd" thing, I assume you mean offstage, mid recovery (-and post-jump, most notably), which, is actually a point I disagree with. There's a few characters notably worse than Cloud that can't always deal with this either, and probably a couple who are better, too. If anything, this point is a grey zone because you really shouldn't be getting hit mid-recovery, post-jump anyway. I don't necessarily like bringing up the skill card, but I personally rarely have trouble with this kinda thing too, so more horizontal recovery on his up-B is kind of a no-no IMO, if this is what you were going for... I don't think it'd even do much for his recovery since horizontal recovery would only be useful for the inital up motion because after that, you're basically gonna need to ledge grab, and if you don't, you're going back into the void anyway. (I also think it'd make Climhazzard really awkward to use as an attack too, so...)

As for combos off grab - again, I'm just totally against this... His grabs are bad for a reason, all of his hits aren't exactly weak as I said before, so it's difficult to buff his throws with combo potential without just outright breaking them. Any kind of definate follow-up after a grab would be a massive advantage for Cloud. He already gets a pretty big positioning advantage from his throws (since they're throws), and that does enough for him, since his whole shtick seems to be controlling the stage and position, and throws do that, that's simple as. The closest I could agree to this is to retool D-throw, but a lot of people are finding use for D-throw, so I can't even say that.

I dunno, to me, all your suggestions just kinda stink of "Needs more Sheik." in the sense that they're trying to give him properties of the two most notable top-tiers, or they feel like they're trying to change Cloud's style quite drastically, which I know a lot of people would hate anyway. Plus, even after saying cutting his KO power would cut the character's viability, I think the throw thing would make up for it too much, because it allows damage building at a much faster rate, so there's a good chance he'd be getting kills faster than he was before, and that's a problem...

And if you are implying that he cannot be zoned because he has a limited buff that has to be charged by hitting, charging, and getting hit, then you have trouble zoning him. You're implying from personal experience things that you assume other people have trouble with. Play a capable ZSS, pacman, or Villager with Cloud, then let me know how good he is at not being zoned out.

Actually, any capable Cloud should have no trouble spacing you unless you're a small handful of characters, but they need to know where and how to be doing so.

I think the best example would have easily been Rosaluma (Not the characters you mentioned for several reasons.), since she basically spaces out everyone with Luma and her disjoints, but then again, she outspaces everyone from what I know, so it's kinda moot. I don't know many if any characters Cloud definately loses to in terms of spacing at every distance, but yeah, Cloud will have to approach some characters - it just so happens that he can also outrange and disjoint them when he does that too. -and from there he can keep the pressure up if the player is good.

I mean, I personally have trouble spacing good Cloud players too, even as some of my more projectile intense characters. It's just the nature of swinging a sword the size of a house around while also having a projectile and a threat generator that makes it difficult - not always at huge range, but definitely within certain ranges, and that's how a Cloud player should be, spacing and zoning at it's finest.



[Side-note]: (Also, if I have to see another argument saying "___ is just speaking from personal experience!", I'm going to cry, because 99% of learning how a character works and moves, and what tools are strong is someone's personal experience. Saying this just implies whoever you're talking to is bad, or at the very least you know better than them, whether you meant it or not, so it's pretty damn rude and actually kinda defunct as an argument. Just please use different arguments than this. Use your own experiences to prove them wrong if you have to, just don't discredit theirs as a one off of or due to bad play.)

 

[Denjinpachi]

That's more than re-balancing. That's completely changing the character. Reducing his kill power and increasing his aerial mobility changes him drastically. Cloud's aerials are all disjointed and cover him quite well. Does he really need better aerial movement? His range is quite good. We don't need someone zipping about in the air with a sword that long.

Limit charging forces approaches. It's just how it is. Cloud is very scary with his limit break. Are people going to sit there at let him charge up? No, they are going to approach, whether with a projectile or not. Look at any tournament set involving Cloud. No one simply lets him sit in a corner and charge limit. Here look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Stp-lVuzY&t=6m34s

SSB4 Rain Vs Nairo. At the 6:34 mark, their match starts. Notice throughout the match that Cloud, whenever he charges his limit break, is always approached? Cloud is not one you can easily camp. No one wants Cloud to get his limit break. He's dangerous with it. No one is simply going to sit around and watch him charge it up. They're going to try and force him to stop and move.

So, if I were to be corrected so I can understand the difference, what is the difference in rebalancing and changing a character? They sound the same to me. You change the function, or property of a moveset a character has, what is that called? If im misspeaking for which I'd prefer with the changes/rebalances I've recommended then im sorry for the confusion of my ignorance of the term. Looking at it either way, if it were done thoroughly, or in an impactful way, then cloud would change anyway. Now if it were simply sticking to the subject of just nerfing him, I'd have a list for that. If it were solely for buffs, I'd make one for that too. But I know for sure the point was to change how cloud would function due to taking power from one place, and putting it into another. Which is why I believed it to be "rebalancing." If im still misunderstanding, please correct me, and ill make a better list for what it is that im actually supposed to be talkin about. I've been wrong before.

But either way, any character that charges anything could force an approach. When sheik gets needles, she becomes a threat from a larger portion of the screen. When Cloud gets his limit break, the thing that changes is the damage output and kill power of his moves. Not necessarily him gaining access to a new form of stage control. But, either way, both force an approach because of the threat of the resulting charge. That's a statement that applies to any character that can charge and hold a move that will benefit them in the match period. (Not simply thinking of charging a smash attack of course.)

-as for the "should be able to survive getting B-air'd" thing, I assume you mean offstage, mid recovery (-and post-jump, most notably), which, is actually a point I disagree with. There's a few characters notably worse than Cloud that can't always deal with this either, and probably a couple who are better, too. If anything, this point is a grey zone because you really shouldn't be getting hit mid-recovery, post-jump anyway. I don't necessarily like bringing up the skill card, but I personally rarely have trouble with this kinda thing too, so more horizontal recovery on his up-B is kind of a no-no IMO, if this is what you were going for... I don't think it'd even do much for his recovery since horizontal recovery would only be useful for the inital up motion because after that, you're basically gonna need to ledge grab, and if you don't, you're going back into the void anyway. (I also think it'd make Climhazzard really awkward to use as an attack too, so...)

That was the point of the horizontal angle in-put change. I can understand that the second hit of climhazzard is basically like the second hit of Kirby's up-b, but at the end of the day you can choose to input it if you wanna use it. And as far as its use as a move, that's very situational. The change I recommended was solely intent to be viewed in the aspect of its recovery.

I dunno, to me, all your suggestions just kinda stink of "Needs more Sheik." in the sense that they're trying to give him properties of the two most notable top-tiers, or they feel like they're trying to change Cloud's style quite drastically, which I know a lot of people would hate anyway. Plus, even after saying cutting his KO power would cut the character's viability, I think the throw thing would make up for it too much, because it allows damage building at a much faster rate, so there's a good chance he'd be getting kills faster than he was before, and that's a problem...

If you believe I mean that he should have something that better characters have, then yeah, basically. Like I mentioned, I don't have an extensive set of time with smash 4. I don't know all of who is "top tier" in the game aside from Sheik. I know popular characters ive seen on stream, and ive seen their high level players do well with them, and then there is my experience I was able to draw from playing with a few decent players recently. I only played cloud when I did it, so I only had the opportunity to understand what I could pull from those matches, and what has been displayed. Grabbing in itself is supposed to reward you because you had managed to catch your opponent anyway. I had also mentioned, because I know the charge rate on limit break as it is would be too strong with the buff of grab follow ups, that the amount of charge required for limit break be increased, or the amount you gain be reduced.

I think the best example would have easily been Rosaluma (Not the characters you mentioned for several reasons.), since she basically spaces out everyone with Luma and her disjoints, but then again, she outspaces everyone from what I know, so it's kinda moot. I don't know many if any characters Cloud definately loses to in terms of spacing at every distance, but yeah, Cloud will have to approach some characters - it just so happens that he can also outrange and disjoint them when he does that too. -and from there he can keep the pressure up if the player is good.

I mean, I personally have trouble spacing good Cloud players too, even as some of my more projectile intense characters. It's just the nature of swinging a sword the size of a house around while also having a projectile and a threat generator that makes it difficult - not always at huge range, but definitely within certain ranges, and that's how a Cloud player should be, spacing and zoning at it's finest.

I'd honestly say from when I had watched anyone play rosa, it was that she does space well, but more specifically she threatens space when you attempt to hurt her. That's a little bit reminiscent of what Ice Climbers offered in previous games, but she can fire and control her partner around the screen. And of course, at the mid range he doesn't lose to long range zoning characters in that regard. He's a strong mid range fighter, and close range punisher. But spacing, and zoning are two different things. And to be honest, every player is supposed to be a depiction of zoning at its finest. Period. But, that's not the case.

[Side-note]: (Also, if I have to see another argument saying "___ is just speaking from personal experience!", I'm going to cry, because 99% of learning how a character works and moves, and what tools are strong is someone's personal experience. Saying this just implies whoever you're talking to is bad, or at the very least you know better than them, whether you meant it or not, so it's pretty damn rude and actually kinda defunct as an argument. Just please use different arguments than this. Use your own experiences to prove them wrong if you have to, just don't discredit theirs as a one off of or due to bad play.)

I don't understand how you can say that when you literally used your own personal claim or "card" of skill to justify rebutting my position on horizontal recovery. Seems a little hypocritical. When I say "you" I apologize for it coming across as a personal attack, but I meant it more so as to be taken a general term in the situation I was referring to. This is what I meant btw:

I don't necessarily like bringing up the skill card, but I personally rarely have trouble with this kinda thing too, so more horizontal recovery on his up-B is kind of a no-no IMO, if this is what you were going for...

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

what is the difference in rebalancing and changing a character?

Rebalancing a character, in this context, is changing a few numbers to balance gameplay between that character's matchups.

Changing the character, in this context, implies mostly scrapping the original idea of the character in favor of other strengths and weaknesses, if any. Examples like an aerial Little Mac, the Ganons in Project Ganondorf, a hard hitting Sheik, and so on. Your suggestions for Cloud fits the latter more, imo.

But either way, any character that charges anything could force an approach. When sheik gets needles, she becomes a threat from a larger portion of the screen. When Cloud gets his limit break, the thing that changes is the damage output and kill power of his moves. Not necessarily him gaining access to a new form of stage control. But, either way, both force an approach because of the threat of the resulting charge. That's a statement that applies to any character that can charge and hold a move that will benefit them in the match period. (Not simply thinking of charging a smash attack of course.)

Finally, someone brings this up.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Rebalancing a character, in this context, is changing a few numbers to balance gameplay between that character's matchups.

Changing the character, in this context, implies mostly scrapping the original idea of the character in favor of other strengths and weaknesses, if any. Examples like an aerial Little Mac, the Ganons in Project Ganondorf, a hard hitting Sheik, and so on. Your suggestions for Cloud fits the latter more, imo.



Finally, someone brings this up.

I understand. Ill try to keep my listings for changes to be appropriate for how they are supposed to be in the correct context. i see now why there was confusion in what i was stating and what other people were saying. My bad.

 

[Conn1496]

So, if I were to be corrected so I can understand the difference, what is the difference in rebalancing and changing a character? They sound the same to me. You change the function, or property of a moveset a character has, what is that called? If im misspeaking for which I'd prefer with the changes/rebalances I've recommended then im sorry for the confusion of my ignorance of the term. Looking at it either way, if it were done thoroughly, or in an impactful way, then cloud would change anyway. Now if it were simply sticking to the subject of just nerfing him, I'd have a list for that. If it were solely for buffs, I'd make one for that too. But I know for sure the point was to change how cloud would function due to taking power from one place, and putting it into another. Which is why I believed it to be "rebalancing." If im still misunderstanding, please correct me, and ill make a better list for what it is that im actually supposed to be talkin about. I've been wrong before.

Rebalancing a character, in this context, is changing a few numbers to balance gameplay between that character's matchups.

Changing the character, in this context, implies mostly scrapping the original idea of the character in favor of other strengths and weaknesses, if any. Examples like an aerial Little Mac, the Ganons in Project Ganondorf, a hard hitting Sheik, and so on. Your suggestions for Cloud fits the latter more, imo.

Yeah - this peep pretty much nailed it for me, so thanks to them for beating me to the punch. lol I don't totally blame you for getting this wrong, I suppose changing a character is a way of rebalancing them, but it's a little extreme, and I imagine it would bother a lot of people...

But either way, any character that charges anything could force an approach. When sheik gets needles, she becomes a threat from a larger portion of the screen. When Cloud gets his limit break, the thing that changes is the damage output and kill power of his moves. Not necessarily him gaining access to a new form of stage control. But, either way, both force an approach because of the threat of the resulting charge. That's a statement that applies to any character that can charge and hold a move that will benefit them in the match period. (Not simply thinking of charging a smash attack of course.)

Oh yeah, but Cloud also has a projectile that doesn't necessarily use up his threat. Not only that but again, his moves have huge disjoints, and he's respectably mobile, so forcing an approach isn't the only option he has. He can even force an approach just by getting close enough to pressure you against an edge or just in a poor spot in general. -again, I kinda mentioned it before, but Cloud doesn't just zone you from afar, so his Limit Charge is more of a bait in that sense. That sense of being able to swap between bait and pressure is a scary thing when you know what you're doing. -and that's the key strength of Cloud's Limit. It builds up to a threat more than it causes one. -and you can stop that so there's "an opening" of sorts for Cloud players to control their opponents in a sense.

That was the point of the horizontal angle in-put change. I can understand that the second hit of climhazzard is basically like the second hit of Kirby's up-b, but at the end of the day you can choose to input it if you wanna use it. And as far as its use as a move, that's very situational. The change I recommended was solely intent to be viewed in the aspect of its recovery.

Well, that'd be fair if you changed the move's properties too I guess (I must have missed that point, my bad.), but regardless of that and it's use as a move as a whole, I feel that Cloud's horizontal recovery isn't really part of his issue. Chances are, if you're recovering, you're gonna be doing it close to the stage to be optimal and/or safe anyway - I don't think it'd be particularly safe for Cloud to recover from further out with his recovery. I think it'd be more helpful just to change up his air mobility, but that actually gets buffed if you have limit, and then you have the fact you might even just have limit offstage, yada, yada... There's a lot of factors, and horizontal speed is basically nothing IMO, that's what it really boils down to. I mean, I doubt they'd make it so his speed is faster than normal TBH, so chances are it'd fall flat as a buff anyway.

If you believe I mean that he should have something that better characters have, then yeah, basically. Like I mentioned, I don't have an extensive set of time with smash 4. I don't know all of who is "top tier" in the game aside from Sheik. I know popular characters ive seen on stream, and ive seen their high level players do well with them, and then there is my experience I was able to draw from playing with a few decent players recently. I only played cloud when I did it, so I only had the opportunity to understand what I could pull from those matches, and what has been displayed. Grabbing in itself is supposed to reward you because you had managed to catch your opponent anyway. I had also mentioned, because I know the charge rate on limit break as it is would be too strong with the buff of grab follow ups, that the amount of charge required for limit break be increased, or the amount you gain be reduced.

My issue with this is that a lot of other things are "hit and reward". -not just grabs. Infact, Cloud feels very much based around that, and that alone in all of his hits. -and out of all of them, something unblockable and fast is probably the least fair to put reward on. His grabs just aren't his best options, and that's something you need to just work around, and the same goes for a few other characters. It feels kinda moot as an argument to give one character a buff that changes his playstyle too drastically just because it's the uniform these days.

-also Limit and Grabs are totally different tools, you can't really balance out a character with that compromise IMO, especially since there'd be less use for purposely pressuring with Limit if Cloud's grabs were stronger too. Overall, it would take a lot of personality from the character, and that's the big issue I have with it.

I'd honestly say from when I had watched anyone play rosa, it was that she does space well, but more specifically she threatens space when you attempt to hurt her. That's a little bit reminiscent of what Ice Climbers offered in previous games, but she can fire and control her partner around the screen. And of course, at the mid range he doesn't lose to long range zoning characters in that regard. He's a strong mid range fighter, and close range punisher. But spacing, and zoning are two different things. And to be honest, every player is supposed to be a depiction of zoning at its finest. Period. But, that's not the case.

I dunno, I don't think every character is meant to be naturally good at spacing or zoning... (I think there may have been a small miscommunication in this argument with this bit - but no biggie.) -and that's fine, they tend to make up with it with speed, or combos, etc. Cloud just isn't like that.

-and Cloud arguably threatens space when you try to hurt him too - N-air is pretty gross at covering an area fast, and the disjoint is unreal. His other moves don't quite have the range, but they often have the knockback or speed to compensate, and that's fine.

I do get what you're saying about the difference between spacing and zoning though and I feel that Cloud is flexible in that regard. Against some characters, he can space them out well with Blade Beam and powerful knockbacks, against others he has to zone them out up close and reset to neutral, but he's rarely forced to approach all the way, and that's my point. I'm probably just bad at explaining, or I could just be totally wrong, but it goes without saying regardless that Cloud's ability to keep people away isn't non-existent or bad, but it's not going to beat other spacers any time soon either - but that's where his other options shine.

I don't understand how you can say that when you literally used your own personal claim or "card" of skill to justify rebutting my position on horizontal recovery. Seems a little hypocritical. When I say "you" I apologize for it coming across as a personal attack, but I meant it more so as to be taken a general term in the situation I was referring to. This is what I meant btw:

Actually, I made a point that using your own experiences isn't really a bad thing to do (Which is basically what I tried to do by saying I had no personal issue with Cloud's horizontal recovery.) bringing light to other options and/or your successes is never an inherently bad thing when sharing information, and never once did I discredit you or how you played by pointing out I rarely had a problem with Climhazzard or it's horizontal recovery, I literally just pointed out that I personally had less problems with Climhazzard, and whether or not people interpret that as "Climhazzard has no problems." or "Climhazzard has problems I never encountered." is still down to the reader's own biases. Mine doesn't make a direct contest to yours because the extent of either of our skills is known, for all anyone knows, I could be awful compared to you. lol
I think this is fundamentally just another minor misunderstanding over weird definitions, etc. - my point in my side-note was more that you can't flat-out discredit someone else's experience because it's kinda of like saying "That never could or should have happened." whereas by sharing your own experiences, it's more like saying "This has never or rarely happened to me." which is just a more solid and polite argument overall than... -well, basically calling someone a liar.

I mean, Climhazzard sucks, that's blatant, it causes some problems. lol But I'm just under the impression at this point that those problems aren't an actual issue because it's never an issue for me personally (unless I know I basically deserved it, like if I recovered high against Greninja and get pushed into the void like a moron), and I think that's a fair point to present in this case - whether it has merit or not is a reader's opinon.

Sorry if it seemed like a stab at you at all, that's not what I meant at all.

 

[Top Boss]

Cloud doesn't need/deserve better throws. His grab range would stiiiink regardless.

 

[Sc0urg3]

I notice through most of this discussion that people always bring up Cloud's recovery in some sort of capacity (usually, its a request for a buff with edge sweet-spotting). I was also in the same mindset when I first played cloud online. However, after thinking about this topic for awhile, I have come to the conclusion that Cloud's recovery is actually one of his more interesting mechanics and allows more developed play/mindgames akin to Melee edge guarding. In my mind, his recovery isn't really a weakness as much as it is a small struggle that makes you improve the way you recover and how you approach people in general.

The best evidence I can give to support my idea is with Genesis 3 this past weekend. Cloud is supposedly an easier character to gimp, but the good Clouds (usually those players from Japan, especially Komorikiri) never really had to worry about it. Why? Its because they knew how to mix up their recovery and surprise their opponent. And the times they did not recover? Its because they made poor choices and were punished accordingly for it. Unfortunately, I am waiting for more clips from Showdowngg to illustrate this, but once i find them, I will hopefully be able to explain my thoughts better.

Carrying on though, I think his limit break also supports this idea: for getting a limit break, you are rewarded and punished with the ability to snap to the edge (along with the increased height and burning the charge). This observation forced me into another conclusion. Cloud's recovery itself isn't whats bad with him: its his recovery compared to other recoveries in the game.

Too many characters get back to the stage way too damn easy for such little risk. I admired the development team's idea for introducing edge hogging because it really improved a lot of character ability to get back to the stage, but they didn't compensate for it by making recoveries themselves more exploitable and risky. Instead, the mindset is: "As long as I can snap to the edge, I can't get gimped." The counter play is reduced to either going out far for the gimp (which only a few characters can do), or just waiting at the edge for the opponent's getup option. This is a complaint I hear a lot from Melee fans, and its a fair complaint in my opinion. There's little to no risk in going for the edge snap. Players are conditioned into waiting at the edge, which is why when Cloud decides to recover high, opponents can be surprised by a Climhazzard down spike or aerial. I think more characters recoveries should act like Cloud's since it makes the gameplay more dynamic and rewarding for both the offstage recoverer and the opponent on-stage. Looking like Melee in this case, is an improvement from my perspective.

So Cloud's recovery shouldn't change since its not only his "weakness", but because it does not make his offstage game boring or ridiculously safe. I feel that other character recoveries are the ones that need to change (which probably won't happen, but its nice to think).

With recovery covered, the only other thing I want to discuss is these recent posts about Cloud and Shiek. I mean, its pretty apparent in some posts that the buffs considered are to make Cloud more like Shiek. And my thoughts on that are: Why not? If Sakurai and his team are not going to balance Shiek herself to the rest of the cast, then why not make Cloud and other characters close to her level? The counter-argument to this is that this makes characters brain-dead or very boring to play due to the lack of diversity, but then again, the majority of the time, I see a saturation of Shiek in tournaments, with even great players like Ally feeling forced to play Shiek in order to keep up with the top players.

Variety is awesome, especially with a game like Sm4sh, but only if every character is viable. Its fun playing your favorite Nintendo character, but not if you keep losing, especially to the same characters over and over again. Its why I gave up on Kirby: he's my favorite character, and his play style appeals to me, but I hate losing to Rosalina and Shiek. Its no fun having to put so much work into a character when your opponent can show less effort but perform better than you as a "top-tier character."

Sorry for this long-ass essay. Bibliography will be posted as soon as i care to figure out how to do that without Easybib.

 

[Top Boss]

I notice through most of this discussion that people always bring up Cloud's recovery in some sort of capacity (usually, its a request for a buff with edge sweet-spotting). I was also in the same mindset when I first played cloud online. However, after thinking about this topic for awhile, I have come to the conclusion that Cloud's recovery is actually one of his more interesting mechanics and allows more developed play/mindgames akin to Melee edge guarding. In my mind, his recovery isn't really a weakness as much as it is a small struggle that makes you improve the way you recover and how you approach people in general.

The best evidence I can give to support my idea is with Genesis 3 this past weekend. Cloud is supposedly an easier character to gimp, but the good Clouds (usually those players from Japan, especially Komorikiri) never really had to worry about it. Why? Its because they knew how to mix up their recovery and surprise their opponent. And the times they did not recover? Its because they made poor choices and were punished accordingly for it. Unfortunately, I am waiting for more clips from Showdowngg to illustrate this, but once i find them, I will hopefully be able to explain my thoughts better.

Carrying on though, I think his limit break also supports this idea: for getting a limit break, you are rewarded and punished with the ability to snap to the edge (along with the increased height and burning the charge). This observation forced me into another conclusion. Cloud's recovery itself isn't whats bad with him: its his recovery compared to other recoveries in the game.

Too many characters get back to the stage way too damn easy for such little risk. I admired the development team's idea for introducing edge hogging because it really improved a lot of character ability to get back to the stage, but they didn't compensate for it by making recoveries themselves more exploitable and risky. Instead, the mindset is: "As long as I can snap to the edge, I can't get gimped." The counter play is reduced to either going out far for the gimp (which only a few characters can do), or just waiting at the edge for the opponent's getup option. This is a complaint I hear a lot from Melee fans, and its a fair complaint in my opinion. There's little to no risk in going for the edge snap. Players are conditioned into waiting at the edge, which is why when Cloud decides to recover high, opponents can be surprised by a Climhazzard down spike or aerial. I think more characters recoveries should act like Cloud's since it makes the gameplay more dynamic and rewarding for both the offstage recoverer and the opponent on-stage. Looking like Melee in this case, is an improvement from my perspective.

So Cloud's recovery shouldn't change since its not only his "weakness", but because it does not make his offstage game boring or ridiculously safe. I feel that other character recoveries are the ones that need to change (which probably won't happen, but its nice to think).

With recovery covered, the only other thing I want to discuss is these recent posts about Cloud and Shiek. I mean, its pretty apparent in some posts that the buffs considered are to make Cloud more like Shiek. And my thoughts on that are: Why not? If Sakurai and his team are not going to balance Shiek herself to the rest of the cast, then why not make Cloud and other characters close to her level? The counter-argument to this is that this makes characters brain-dead or very boring to play due to the lack of diversity, but then again, the majority of the time, I see a saturation of Shiek in tournaments, with even great players like Ally feeling forced to play Shiek in order to keep up with the top players.

Variety is awesome, especially with a game like Sm4sh, but only if every character is viable. Its fun playing your favorite Nintendo character, but not if you keep losing, especially to the same characters over and over again. Its why I gave up on Kirby: he's my favorite character, and his play style appeals to me, but I hate losing to Rosalina and Shiek. Its no fun having to put so much work into a character when your opponent can show less effort but perform better than you as a "top-tier character."

Sorry for this long-*** essay. Bibliography will be posted as soon as i care to figure out how to do that without Easybib.

SOMEBODY UNDERSTANDS
never thought I'd see the day.

 

[Rubiss]

I notice through most of this discussion that people always bring up Cloud's recovery in some sort of capacity (usually, its a request for a buff with edge sweet-spotting). I was also in the same mindset when I first played cloud online. However, after thinking about this topic for awhile, I have come to the conclusion that Cloud's recovery is actually one of his more interesting mechanics and allows more developed play/mindgames akin to Melee edge guarding. In my mind, his recovery isn't really a weakness as much as it is a small struggle that makes you improve the way you recover and how you approach people in general.

The best evidence I can give to support my idea is with Genesis 3 this past weekend. Cloud is supposedly an easier character to gimp, but the good Clouds (usually those players from Japan, especially Komorikiri) never really had to worry about it. Why? Its because they knew how to mix up their recovery and surprise their opponent. And the times they did not recover? Its because they made poor choices and were punished accordingly for it. Unfortunately, I am waiting for more clips from Showdowngg to illustrate this, but once i find them, I will hopefully be able to explain my thoughts better.

Carrying on though, I think his limit break also supports this idea: for getting a limit break, you are rewarded and punished with the ability to snap to the edge (along with the increased height and burning the charge). This observation forced me into another conclusion. Cloud's recovery itself isn't whats bad with him: its his recovery compared to other recoveries in the game.

Too many characters get back to the stage way too damn easy for such little risk. I admired the development team's idea for introducing edge hogging because it really improved a lot of character ability to get back to the stage, but they didn't compensate for it by making recoveries themselves more exploitable and risky. Instead, the mindset is: "As long as I can snap to the edge, I can't get gimped." The counter play is reduced to either going out far for the gimp (which only a few characters can do), or just waiting at the edge for the opponent's getup option. This is a complaint I hear a lot from Melee fans, and its a fair complaint in my opinion. There's little to no risk in going for the edge snap. Players are conditioned into waiting at the edge, which is why when Cloud decides to recover high, opponents can be surprised by a Climhazzard down spike or aerial. I think more characters recoveries should act like Cloud's since it makes the gameplay more dynamic and rewarding for both the offstage recoverer and the opponent on-stage. Looking like Melee in this case, is an improvement from my perspective.

So Cloud's recovery shouldn't change since its not only his "weakness", but because it does not make his offstage game boring or ridiculously safe. I feel that other character recoveries are the ones that need to change (which probably won't happen, but its nice to think).

With recovery covered, the only other thing I want to discuss is these recent posts about Cloud and Shiek. I mean, its pretty apparent in some posts that the buffs considered are to make Cloud more like Shiek. And my thoughts on that are: Why not? If Sakurai and his team are not going to balance Shiek herself to the rest of the cast, then why not make Cloud and other characters close to her level? The counter-argument to this is that this makes characters brain-dead or very boring to play due to the lack of diversity, but then again, the majority of the time, I see a saturation of Shiek in tournaments, with even great players like Ally feeling forced to play Shiek in order to keep up with the top players.

Variety is awesome, especially with a game like Sm4sh, but only if every character is viable. Its fun playing your favorite Nintendo character, but not if you keep losing, especially to the same characters over and over again. Its why I gave up on Kirby: he's my favorite character, and his play style appeals to me, but I hate losing to Rosalina and Shiek. Its no fun having to put so much work into a character when your opponent can show less effort but perform better than you as a "top-tier character."

Sorry for this long-*** essay. Bibliography will be posted as soon as i care to figure out how to do that without Easybib.

I think people seriously underrate Cloud's recovery. It does not need a buff. Just mix up how you recovery, maybe save that second jump, throw out an aerial, there are a lot of ways to recover. I don't really agree with the recovery point. There are a lot of interesting recoveries and while some of them are rather excessive and hard to gimp, they often (in most cases, not counting Sheik) have a good aerial game with a slightly weaker ground game. I think it would be rather boring and honestly pretty predictable if everyone has a recovery like say, Captain Falcon. It's all about understanding how far off the stage you can go with the character. Like for example, Villager. His recovery is seen as being pretty good. He can recovery horizontally and vertically quite well, but if he uses the balloons too early? You can gimp him quite easily. His Lloyd rocket can be reflected. There are all sorts of counters and options against a recovering opponent. Waiting on the edge is just one option. Look at Nairo for example. His ZSS is often off-stage trying to gimp because he understands how to recover with ZSS and knows the limits of how far she can pushed. I think rather than dumbing down everyone's recovery to be more like Cloud's, it would be better if players used their great recoveries to go off-stage when appropriate (which I am fairly sure, in competitive play, they already do).

I really don't think Cloud needs to be changed to be more like Sheik. He's supposed to have high power and lots of range. It's what his character is all about. I mean, just look at his sword. If that thing has poor kill power, then what's even the point? From a purely character point of view, Cloud should not be weak. Not to say Smash perfectly translates what Cloud is, but I think it did a pretty decent job. Not to mention, I think a lot of players are seriously overrating Sheik. Do you know why she's so good? There's a lot of people who use her, develop and lab her. Her frame data is good, sure. Her recovery is one of the best, sure, but a lot of what makes her shine is the sheer amount of research and dedication to the character. Sheik is very technical and while she does have some brain-dead kill setups, there is a lot behind the character that people take for granted. It's not as simple as picking up Sheik and winning. There is a lot behind the character and tons of tech that should be used.

The only nerf I think Sheik even needs is vanish's invincibility frames. She needs much less on the startup so that you can actually hit her before it comes out.

 

[FooltheFlames]

His projectile could be faster, and how about reducing the knock back on some of his moves? But... if that happens, it might lead to him having greater combo potential at higher percents. It might be good to leave well enough alone, it's not like he's too op.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Needs more color pallets. Buff the costume meta in this game.

 

[Conn1496]

Needs more color pallets. Buff the costume meta in this game.

Blade Beam, Climhazzard and Cross Slash can be powered up, but we don't even get to see him in a dress. Which of those is canon again?..

I'm ashamed, Nintendo. :v

 

[Denjinpachi]

Release Cloudette with the Bayonettta DLC. Complete the Kreygasm.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Not something entirely necessary, but l'd like to be able to act out of jab 1 faster. l know this could set up for an insane FT set-up, so if they could lower the angle the move sends you enough so that they could shield if you decide to stop at jab 1, but could still link into jab 2 with the angle change, that'd be pretty fun.

Of course, l'm just saying this because l miss lke's jab 1 to Dtilt.

Also, has anyone else seen how easy it is to fox-trot back and forth with Cloud? l swear, every minute, he's looking more and more like Melee Marth.... AND I LOVE IT!!1!

 

[Dividee]

From what I've seen, Cloud has nearly all the tools he needs to keep up with the likes of S tier characters without a reliable throw combo until like mid percents which is fine because imo if cloud gets a throw combo he'd be a little OP. He's a good balance right now

 

[MacSmitty]

Needs more color pallets. Buff the costume meta in this game.

Yeah. I feel so bad for color-blind people when they play Cloud on a stage Like Kongo Jungle, Pyrosphere and the like.

 

[DSKA]

The only thing I would say about Cloud is that I can see his meta involving into a REALLY campy one. At high percents, he already tends to camp his limit, due to his very, very lacking recovery. He dies really easily if put offstage at any percents, and in certain MUs, such as... even the Cloud ditto- Characters can just hold jab at ledge and cloud will die, due to the no ledge snap.

I honestly think they could fix this, toning down the need of limit by a little and possibly tone down his up air... But thats a maybe. Maybe just give him his ledge snap and do nothing else.
It's all opinion, but as seen previously, I don't think complaining about balancing characters will get us that very far.

Just play the game as it is.
Thank you if you read this.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Characters can just hold jab at ledge and cloud will die.

Can't the Cloud just learn to space the recovery? lf you're getting hit by a jab, l'm pretty sure you're recovering too high.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The only thing I would say about Cloud is that I can see his meta involving into a REALLY campy one. At high percents, he already tends to camp his limit, due to his very, very lacking recovery. He dies really easily if put offstage at any percents, and in certain MUs, such as... even the Cloud ditto- Characters can just hold jab at ledge and cloud will die, due to the no ledge snap.

I honestly think they could fix this, toning down the need of limit by a little and possibly tone down his up air... But thats a maybe. Maybe just give him his ledge snap and do nothing else.
It's all opinion, but as seen previously, I don't think complaining about balancing characters will get us that very far.

Just play the game as it is.
Thank you if you read this.

Why nerf Cloud's upair when there are so many better upairs? Take ZSS upair for instance. Combos from a grab, combos from the best nair in the game, combos into itself, kills off top top from 50 - 130 by just streaming them into a boost kick, and does great damage. Why not nerf it instead? Because people know how to deal with it. People need to learn how to deal with Cloud before saying certain things need nerfs. Buffs on the other hand, are definitely coming. He can't punish any move with less than 5 frames of ending lag and he has trouble against shields even though he can consistently keep them at about half full with moves like bair. That's why a lot of Cloud players (like myself) would love it if he were able to get at least something off of grabs other than a neutral reset

 

[Conn1496]

Can't the Cloud just learn to space the recovery? lf you're getting hit by a jab, l'm pretty sure you're recovering too high.

Climhazzard will actually protect him from most stuff like this too, so I dunno... It's not like people can just stand by the ledge and mash an attack, but Climhazzard does blatantly have issues so it doesn't shock me if people have experienced dying to clashing by the ledge to jabs, etc.

Why nerf Cloud's upair when there are so many better upairs? Take ZSS upair for instance. Combos from a grab, combos from the best nair in the game, combos into itself, kills off top top from 50 - 130 by just streaming them into a boost kick, and does great damage. Why not nerf it instead? Because people know how to deal with it. People need to learn how to deal with Cloud before saying certain things need nerfs. Buffs on the other hand, are definitely coming. He can't punish any move with less than 5 frames of ending lag and he has trouble against shields even though he can consistently keep them at about half full with moves like bair. That's why a lot of Cloud players (like myself) would love it if he were able to get at least something off of grabs other than a neutral reset

This is a pretty bad comparison because ZSS's U-air is dependant on her other tools for why it's so good. The move itself is kind of mediocre, but you slap it in the hands of a character with good mobility and a grab combo and... -well, you have ZSS.

The difference between Cloud's and ZSS's is that ZSS's is an enabler while Cloud's is just good. It lasts a long time, does decent damage, can combo in the right circumstances, can kill... It's a very flexible, powerful, strong move, whereas ZSS's feels like almost mandatory utility. I do understand what you mean though, ZSS's U-air is better for her and she's likely a better character, probably brokenly so, but if Cloud and ZSS both had, say Diddy's pre-patch U-air (the 'Hah' of the infamous Hoo-Hah), it'd just be the same case. ZSS would get infinite more use out of it.

-and yeah, Cloud struggles against shields and is pretty bad at punishing (Jab is actually frame 4 though, so it's not totally awful, Cloud's punish options are just lacking.), but I think Cloud's lack of power against shields is literally just down to people not accommodating for them in their play style. His B-air is actually really safe on shield when spaced well, and he tends to keep people at bay anyway so there's rarely any OoS options that are too dangerous to him unless you're in a position where any other character could be punished too.

He's one of few characters who gets his hits by spotting openings or creating them and it's not like he doesn't capitalise on them well either. -all of his attacks are pretty powerful, so you get rewarded for catching people out of shield a fair amount (and you can set up those scenarios with throws well enough (Not guaranteed, I know, but it's a better situation out of throw than in neutral. Don't misquote me on that.) IMO) but he's just more likely to suffer than, say, Fox or Ike for hitting a shield. I think most if not all characters can notoriously suffer somewhat against shields with exception of like... Sonic, who plows right through them 9/10, but those kind of characters tend to feel very vulnerable in and of themselves if you counter their defensive strategies (Like Sonic's "not getting caught" deal.), because they tend to be "squishies".



Overall, I'm starting to see why people think Cloud is fine, but I kinda agree with some of the nerfs/buffs people want. I'm really under the impression that it totally depends on if you want Cloud to stay a niche character or be more accessible at this point, but I think he's just gonna stay a niche character since it's basically in his design philosophy, and I'd rather have it that way personally, too.

 

[DSKA]

Getting hit by jab happens if Cloud is forced to recover high, or there is bad spacing/misinput.

 

[Kuraudo]

I see people in here arguing over giving Cloud throw combos. I for one am okay with how DThrow is now, and do not want throws that combo (Finishing Touch/UAir/FAir/Cross Slash kills much?)

That being said? I want a buff to Cloud's throws. Leave DThrow alone, leave BThrow alone, UThrow and FThrow though? Make them kill throws. Let Cloud kill at the ledge with FThrow between 130% or 150%. Let Cloud's UThrow kill at 140 or 160% instead of at 200+%.

Especially if Cloud's grab range is as terrible as it is.

 

[Dividee]

Why nerf Cloud's upair when there are so many better upairs? Take ZSS upair for instance. Combos from a grab, combos from the best nair in the game, combos into itself, kills off top top from 50 - 130 by just streaming them into a boost kick, and does great damage. Why not nerf it instead? Because people know how to deal with it. People need to learn how to deal with Cloud before saying certain things need nerfs. Buffs on the other hand, are definitely coming. He can't punish any move with less than 5 frames of ending lag and he has trouble against shields even though he can consistently keep them at about half full with moves like bair. That's why a lot of Cloud players (like myself) would love it if he were able to get at least something off of grabs other than a neutral reset

Thats what I'm saying since the only semi-reliable thing cloud can do off throws from lower percents is back throw into an immediate turn around jab or cross slash

 

[Dar4]

I think they should reduce the jank factor. I do think he's balanced overall, but there's too much variance in his play. Nerf his killpower, especially limit down B which kills WAY too early for how fast limit charges but buff his recovery to compensate. If they don't want to do that, they can increase limit charge time.

It urks me as a wario main that finishing touch kills just as early, if not earlier, than fart yet cloud can charge limit in like 10-15 seconds whereas fart takes 110 seconds. I'll admit I'm biased and salty about this. That's super frustrating, I feel like my character has been mostly invalidated by Cloud. Yeah fart has a lot of confirms and FT has only one I know of (FF upair), but that doesn't make up for it charging 10 times slower. Fart is balanced because missing it has consequences since you only get it once every 110 seconds...but missing limit doesn't. Just run away, camp, and get another limit.

But let's reduce the jank, please. Reduce Cloud's extremes.

Cloud is clearly a top 15 character currently. Probably top 10. Absolutely no way should he get buffs, throw combos or a kill throw buff would be way too much.

We're already seeing lots of results. Nairo lost a tourney to Tweek's Cloud. Two clouds won doubles at Genesis. He's gonna be very scary 3-6 months down the line when Cloud mains have had more time to master him.

Oh and I seriously cloud is broken in doubles. All you have to do is throw an opponent to your teammate for a free finishing touch. It's stupid. And if it's a 2v1 situation, it's free limit charge anytime you want it.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Don't get hit.

 

[Conn1496]

Thats what I'm saying since the only semi-reliable thing cloud can do off throws from lower percents is back throw into an immediate turn around jab or cross slash

So?.. I mean, you have seen Fox, right? Or Bowser Jr.? I'm pretty sure their throws are almost as bad, give or take (I may just be bad as Fox, but I'm pretty sure his throws are awful.). Not every character needs confirms off throws - Cloud has more than enough power in other places to make up for it.

All of Cloud's hits are incredibly strong comparative to other characters, for starters, and his pressure game and spacing are incredible, too. I'm under the impression there's no sane way to buff Cloud's throws to be honest, even if it was "Being able to do Cross Slash from D-throw at 30%" or something, that's an extra 26%, a 26% you can get of an initial 26% for a character who with two more well placed hits, can probably kill at that %.

-and then you have to take into consideration what other moves could hit as a result as that kind of buff, and that means D-air could probably hit since it's barely slower than Cross Slash, which means Cloud could combo from a throw right into a spike.

Literally every time I think about Cloud with throw combos, it just never seems fair, right, or sane. Having played plenty of characters from across the tier list, I can tell you right now that throw combos don't stop your character from being viable.

I think they should reduce the jank factor. I do think he's balanced overall, but there's too much variance in his play. Nerf his killpower, especially limit down B which kills WAY too early for how fast limit charges but buff his recovery to compensate. If they don't want to do that, they can increase limit charge time.

It urks me as a wario main that finishing touch kills just as early, if not earlier, than fart yet cloud can charge limit in like 10-15 seconds whereas fart takes 110 seconds. I'll admit I'm biased and salty about this. That's super frustrating, I feel like my character has been mostly invalidated by Cloud. Yeah fart has a lot of confirms and FT has only one I know of (FF upair), but that doesn't make up for it charging 10 times slower. Fart is balanced because missing it has consequences since you only get it once every 110 seconds...but missing limit doesn't. Just run away, camp, and get another limit.

But let's reduce the jank, please. Reduce Cloud's extremes.

Cloud is clearly a top 15 character currently. Probably top 10. Absolutely no way should he get buffs, throw combos or a kill throw buff would be way too much.

We're already seeing lots of results. Nairo lost a tourney to Tweek's Cloud. Two clouds won doubles at Genesis. He's gonna be very scary 3-6 months down the line when Cloud mains have had more time to master him.

Oh and I seriously cloud is broken in doubles. All you have to do is throw an opponent to your teammate for a free finishing touch. It's stupid. And if it's a 2v1 situation, it's free limit charge anytime you want it.

I don't think Limit is actually that broken, but I can see why you'd be bothered in comparison to Wario Waft - but I am inclined to point out that Waft is frame 9 fully charged, with Super Armor, and has an arguably larger hitbox... It's far easier to hit IMO, but overall, yes, the move has "more risk" to it. I'm not sure that's too fair of a trade-off either, but a lot of people would argue that the super armor in and of itself is more than enough.

-and Cloud's extremes, I don't think are too much of an issue. I don't feel like Cloud would be particularly fun or balanced for that matter if he was just turned into a run-of-the-mill swordy. I still think Cloud is incredibly good, I'm not gonna lie, but I can say with confidence, he's not like... -ZSS material... Heck, I don't think he's even Ness material.

Though, I will say, he looks a lot more powerful in doubles than 1v1. He has far more early KO confirms of partner moves than are really necessary, but then again, the same could be said for any character with particularly strong moves, like Dedede or Ike. Me and my friends hit with dumb crap in doubles all the time, Cloud or otherwise, so I don't think Cloud has any particular sway on it. I think a lot of it - relative to a tournament scene - might just be that high-level play is something you can't completely plan for, especially not of a character that only recently just came out. It could also be argued that the Cloud players just did better (Though yeah, it's a little suspect when you say it like that.).

However, in 2v2s, it could be argued that his extremes could make him a liability too. If Cloud's partner isn't on their toes, it only takes a couple of well placed hits to start Cloud on his wonderful journey towards the lower blast zone - which is sometimes problem enough in 1v1s, but in 2v2s where both players can be on you, trying to take a stock?.. All they'd have to do is take your jump or knock you far enough out because you're Cloud, and with 2 players who know what they're doing, I doubt that's particularly hard to orchestrate without constant pressure on you, especially when a few of the better characters have pretty nasty semi-spikes or options that can easily become frame-traps and turn Cloud into air-putty.



I think it just comes down to how you approach the MU. I don't struggle much with Cloud, but I have had the occasional curb-stomp. I don't think that's bad, I just think it's a glaring problem with his albeit cool character design. All of his battles either feel like an uphill battle, or a complete cakewalk IMO. -and that's fine, but unless Cloud has to pull something back, it doesn't make for particularly thrilling gameplay (Luckily, Cloud is a very neutral game heavy character, so in that sense, it's usually an uphill battle... That's just my opinion on it, anyway.).

 

[GHNeko]

>tfw this thread is still alive

 

[SpicyMango]

I think Cloud is perfect the way he is. He has alright frame data, barely any guaranteed follow ups and his recovery is pretty bad and exploitable. I definitely think Cloud is the perfect balance. He been out for 2 months now so it's just based on us learning the match up and such. Cloud is very exploitable so he definitely does not need a nerf.

 

[Dividee]

Also Cloud thrives on reads for the most part, out of my experience playing as him during tournament since it is true he has no guaranteed follow ups to anything. Especially with limit break obviously.

 

[MioTinto]

For all those who would buff Cloud's recovery: just give me a diddly darn minute, are you guys okay? I get how it's linear, but Cloud has a lot of air mobility, which combined with Smash 4's ledge mechanics means his recovery isn't that much of an issue as long as you recover low. It'd be like me saying that Dedede's recovery is gimpable because he has low air mobility and because Super Dedede Jump has a window with no super armor. Cpt. Falcon and Marth have linear recoveries too, but nobody's begging for them getting buffed because of it. And unlike those characters, he can actually make his recovery go higher.
He's a mobile character with huge disjoints and huge kill potential, of course he has a clear advantage over most of the cast. And I'm pretty sure DLC characters don't get nearly the amount of development time that other characters do, which leaves the developers with less time balancing them. I saw somebody claiming that any character with at least a semi-strong bair counters Cloud hard. Look at my mains. Look at how their bairs work. And I'm still getting shrekt by Cloud users like it's no big deal. WHODA THUNK?
You could argue people are just having trouble with him because he was only just released, but it's been a month and a half. Even Ryu took me around two weeks to learn how to counter.

 

[swillo]

Cloud has clear strengths and clear weaknesses, what every character should have. This character should not be touched at all, imo, especially nerfs cause that is just going to make him less fun when he is a really fun and good without being completely over the top. A lot of the cast imo needs to be fixed to match the distinct balance of strengths and weaknesses like Cloud, because he is honestly the ideal balance a character should have, and it really shows that they understood that after seeing how the meta has played out. Definitely the advantage of being a character added much later into the game.

Maybe they want to adjust how quickly he gets his limit at most, but idk, this is the character that makes the game actually fun to me when other characters just feel insanely dull. I like how Cloud has strong rewarding options and how you have to work on overcoming his weaker aspects to get a character that feels very functional without feeling OP in the end.

 

[2thesky]

No. Don't change Cloud in any way. He's perfect the way he is.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Fsmash got nerfed. Time to celebrate!1!11!!!



Oh, and uptilt got a 2% buff. That's nice too, l guess.