Should "Clones" Return? Thread.

[~Tac~]

In 1999, we witnessed the glory of SSB for the N64. One of the few games with unlockable characters, raising the bar to four with Captain Falcon, Luigi, Jigglupuff, and Ness.

2 years later, soon after the sexy yet simple GCN's release, SSBM shows its freshly powdered face worldwide (Mostly). With all default and unlockable characters from the N64, 3 1P modes, event matches, 11 unlockable characters, and SO much more..this never left the tray of the little box for a while.

In SSBM, after unlocking all the characters..you realized something (or looked at a cheap guide). All of the characters with the exception of Mewtwo and G&W have a "clone" next to them. (Kirby/Jigglypuff is in the middle) HOPEFULLY you know who they are by now...if not, search around SWF, 99.9998% chance its here.

With SSBB right around the ol' gamer's corner, we get a glimpse of our next-gen beauty on the Wii. Teasing us all with the "Newcomer" video sharing Wario, Pit, Snake and MetaKnight.

That being said, do YOU think that "clones" should return to SSBB? Even if they are/aren't the same. This isn't a debate, it's a simple opinionated question so don't spam this thread saying "I NO <Whoever> IS COMING BACK AND HE IZ NAWT A CLON3.

Do you think they should or should not return? Give an answer and state why you think so. Discuss.

For me...I think it was a great addition seeing what its like if "Falcon had MORE power" and "Link was faster and more nimble". The possibilities go on, so I think they should.

*Note* This thread is not meant to be a side-thread/ripoff of McFox's thread "Official "Who is going to return?" thread". This is solely the group known as the clones of SSBM. But if its too closely associated with it, its not intentional.

 

[El HP]

In some cases clones make sense and offer a different way to play certain charaters but some others are a waste of time like pichu and roy mainly because this guys are inferior versions of their counterparts in basically every possible way.

But if there are going to be clones in Brawl I would prefer there were a few of them and not as many as there were in melee.

 

[GenG]

Just as a last resort. For example, a certain character that couldn't get its own moveset because others had more priority than him.

 

[Zarasai]

i really dont 'want' to see them come back, but i find it likely that there will be atleast some clones. just because there always has been i cant see them making a really major change in that department

 

[Red Exodus]

If the strengths are different then clones [in general] should return. Pichu and Roy don't have any advantages that their counterparts don't have, and if they do it's not enough to make them much better. Doc and Mario, Fox and Falco, C.Falcon and Ganon had major differences and strengths so they didn't feel like clones at all.

 

[~Tac~]

If the strengths are different then clones [in general] should return. Pichu and Roy don't have any advantages that their counterparts don't have, and if they do it's not enough to make them much better. Doc and Mario, Fox and Falco, C.Falcon and Ganon had major differences and strengths so they didn't feel like clones at all.

Good point. Although Roy may be "mostly" worse than Marth in overall, Roy's knockbacks are constant. And his power rivals...DK's almost. But other then that, he drops like a rock, is slow and his horizontal recovery is horrid.

 

[H@wK]

They are taking a lot of time to release the Game. There shouldn't be too many clones now.

But Falco have to stay the way it is >_>

 

[NeoFalconHavok]

Jigglypuff is not a **** clone.

 

[GenG]

They are taking a lot of time to release the Game. There shouldn't be too many clones now.

But Falco have to stay the way it is >_>

Why? I mean... Falco is the pillar combo. They just have to pick a different animations for his moves while retaining the launcher-spike-launcher-spike basis.

 

[GreenMamba]

They are taking a lot of time to release the Game. There shouldn't be too many clones now.

But Falco have to stay the way it is >_>

What do you mean "taking a lot of time?"

Melee was in development for two and a half years, and there are six clones in that game.

If Brawl is released this year, it will have been in development for around a year and a half to about two years. That's less time than Melee. Chances are, Brawl will have a few clones too.

 

[oxyborb]

more clones = more characters

so, yes.

 

[GenG]

What do you mean "taking a lot of time?"

Melee was in development for two and a half years, and there are six clones in that game.

If Brawl is released this year, it will have been in development for around a year and a half to about two years. That's less time than Melee. Chances are, Brawl will have a few clones too.

The difference here is that GC was a completely new system and they had to make a completely new engine even rework the returning characters from scratch. Changing from N64 to GC could have been hard or difficult and time consuming.
This time, they have the engine already made, and they just have to make some tune up for the Wii hardware. So they can focus on the game itself.

 

[Caael]

Tbh, the clones didnt affect me that much. I never really used Ganondorf, Young Link or Falco. I wont be throwing tantrums, have Brawl clones. Hopefully at least Ganondorf has a sword this time.

 

[RADskater00]

No

First, melee sucked compared to the original. It's too fast and hopefully Brawl will be more like the 64 version, so therefore, no clones. If the characters are going to return, their moves need to change. Roy or Marth, we don't need both of those douches. Mario or Dr. Mario, also supid, and the same. Falco, Gannondorf, Young Link and Pichu.... stupid. We don't need the same characters twice. Luigi and Jiggly were the limit for clones. The characters are supposed to be unique, if they were supposed to have more power, thats the way the geniuses who created smash would have had it. That is the beauth of this game, well the first one, the second one still sucks in my mind.

 

[GenG]

First, melee sucked compared to the original.

I'd rather have 4 clones for 25 characters than 1 for 12. Other than the clones, Melee was a huge improvement over the clunky and limited SSB64.

 

[RADskater00]

no. melee just showed them what not to do for the third one. the first one wasn't perfect but it was way better than gay melee. if they are just going to through a bunch of clones in at the end than fine, but i don't want some half-*** characters in my game taking up the real creators time. whoever did melee didn't know what he or she or them were doing. yeah 4 clones for 25 crappy characters. way to make kirby, ness, luigi and jiggly puff suck completely in melee, and than theres mr game and watch and ice climbers, which were a good idea, but just not popular. i would rather have 12 great characters, than 25 second rate characters

 

[GenG]

Opinions, opinions. 25 second rate? Except the clones, these are the top Nintendo characters (although many ones were left out, like Wario, Pit, Metaknight, Dedede...), and many classics returned. And if you aren't a tourneytard, then the tiers aren't so clear. It's easier to balance 12 characters than 25, that's common sense. Even companies like SNK or Capcom have problems with a 50 character roster.

Melee was the way to go, was better received than SSB64, and that's why they won't change the game too much. The nerfs in Melee were a pity, but the game isn't as broken like having instant meteors or 0% to death combos.

 

[phate]

I think that it would be nice to have more characters, and cloning isnt really bad; but I dont want the game makers to rely too heavily on it, because it does make the game seem disappointing when they only added half the characters you thought they did.

 

[RADskater00]

sorry dude, i f you were getting owned at 0% on 64 thats not my problem. but the 12 characters in 64 were better than any 12 in melee, in cluding the same characters. if you have trouble balancing 25 then don't make 25 until you can balance them. and the characters personas weren't second-rate, the moves and everything were second rate. true i dont really know roy, marth, gannondorf, mr. game and watch, pichu or anything, because i just dont play that many games but i would have loved to see the ice climbers or bowser or any of those characters to have original/good moves.

 

[Numa Dude]

I don't really care if clones get in if they are different enough like Falcon and Ganondorf but I highly doubt we will see clones in brawl.

 

[i8waffles612]

yea some should but with different moves

 

[GreenMamba]

The difference here is that GC was a completely new system and they had to make a completely new engine even rework the returning characters from scratch. Changing from N64 to GC could have been hard or difficult and time consuming.
This time, they have the engine already made, and they just have to make some tune up for the Wii hardware. So they can focus on the game itself.

Implementing online isn't nearly as easy and quick as you may think.

 

[NeoFalconHavok]

Will everyone stop saying Jigglypuff is a clone!? Do you see kirby with singing moves or a rollout attack? Or jigglypuff turning to stone or using hammers or knives? She has her own moveset thats way different from kirby, THATS a fact!

 

[Paranoid_Android]

For: Clones allow more characters to be in the game, and also allow for a little bit of variety upon the same moveset (Mario vs Dr. Mario comes to mind).

Against: Clones take resources away from more original characters, and keep the developers from making different characters entirely (quantity != quality).


... I'm against.

 

[FSLMJM]

No...just no. Falco, Ganondorf, and Luigi (kind of) are the only clones that should come back. They could be revamped with new moves so they're not clones any more. As for Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Roy, I see their chances coming back very slim as the order I put them in. I don't know why Pichu was put in Melee in the first place, what a waste of time. Dr. Mario is just Mario in a doctor uniform, nuff said. Young Link will probably be replaced by WW Link or Wolf Link. I don't know why people want them in either. Roy, I just put him in there because I heard that other FE characters are nominees for Brawl and Marth is better than him IMO.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Young Link could easily return with a wind waker moveset, but that's not what this thread is for.

 

[Zarasai]

ive nothing against clones (yeah id rather be all original) but if they are in, which they probably some are, as long as it isnt a ridiculous number of em (try and keep it at maybe 1 clone per 3-4-5 chars)

 

[SilintNinjya]

i think they should add unlockable color skins that arent just colors, but whole new models. like if you beat adventure on normal with 3 lives, you unlock a roy skin. then you just go to marth and change colors till you get to roy. however, he would not play differently at all. id rather they not fill up spaces with clones. the only clones that dont bother me are fox/falco and falcon/ganon. all the others are too similar in my opinion. at least with those 2 sets, almost everything is reversed.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Send in the clones, as far as I'm concerned. I hadn't been aware, but if it's true that Melee was in dev for two and a half years (!) then we can definitely expect some clones in Brawl.

Clones aren't a result of laziness, they're a result of time restraints. Games have to be made in a certain time span. Even when a publisher is going to be relatively lax about it, it's still a business and there's still going to be pressure. Despite what folks think, clones (and other last-minute decisions,) aren't a result of Sakurai twisting his evil handlebar mustache and wondering, "How can I get the most people to buy my game with the least work," but instead the designer honestly asking himself, "I've only got three months left before I need to finish this thing. What choices will make this the best game it can be in that time? What will make the players the happiest?"

Despite what a lot of hardcore Smashers might think, the majority of Smash players out there won't start up the game and go "LAME! There's like 6 characters that have the same movesets as these other guys!" The majority of normal Smash players are much more likely to say, "SWEET! I can play as Geno, omfg!" (Random example.)

(Honestly the only clone I've ever heard any of my friends complain about is Gannondorf, mostly because Captain Falcon and Ganny are completely different character types. Racing game protagonist versus adventure/RPG antagonist? What?)

It isn't unreasonable, though, to prefer 1 wholly new character over (say) 5-7 clones. As long as you understand that that choice will have to be made, it's all a matter of opinion.

 

[Elec Man EXE]

Jiggly isn't a clone in any way. In fact, if you look at the characters... Kirby and Fox are as similar as or more similar than Kirby/Jiggly. Jiggly and Kirby share floatiness and jumps, but otherwise they only share about 5-6 attacks. Dair, FSmash, and 3 tilts, Dsmash. Kirby and Fox share extremely similar Uair, Fair, Dair, A (both rapid infinite, though one kick and one punch), Utilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash.

But back to topic... depends on the clone. Doc, Roy, possibly Y. Link, and Pichu should go. Falco and Ganondorf should stay.

Doc is just Mario in a doctor getup. He is Mario. The end resault of his attacks may be different (arguably the most different from his clone other than Falco and Ganon), but that doesn't give any reason for them to keep Mario in a costume as a seperate character altogether. Plenty of better Mario characters to use over him, and if we must have a clone of Mario, at least make it Paper Mario, he has enough seperating him from Mario to be somewhat worthy, as well as being a current character instead of a character that had 1 single appearence years ago.

Roy... he's not very well-liked on the whole, he's inferior to Marth in almost every way, and he was only added in the first place for the sake of advertising FE6. The game wasn't well-recieved, either. He could get a new moveset, but more likely he goes in exchange for a more popular FE character.

Pichu is just a smaller version of Pikachu. Almost as bad as the Mario->Doc thing. Not to mention he's a horrible character, and really brings nothing to the table that Pikachu doesn't. And with the immense amount of pokemon that are possible canidates for Smash, keeping in a poor clone of Pikachu would be rediculous.

Young Link will likely either become WW Link and stay, or go entirely. The LoZ series has plenty of potential non-clone reps, so its certainly a good possibilty that he could be removed. But I think WW style Link and TP style Link have branched off enough that he still has some viability, and both "branches" are going strong.

Falco is well-liked, and easily the most popular Star Fox character, maybe even more than Fox himself. No doubt he should stay as the most logical secondary SF rep. Since he and Fox are on the same team, it's perfectly logical for them to remain similar, but still have noticable differences, not just in end effects but attack animations themselves. Very much like Luigi to Mario. Give him a unique special attack or two, and change a few of his other attacks, and he'll be good.

Ganondorf is the main LoZ villain, he definately needs to stay. But he also definately deserves his own, completely unique moveset. He and C. Falcon aren't even from the same universe, it makes 0 sense for them to share a moveset. He could become a heavy swordsman, which would keep him somewhat seperate from other sword users, or stay a powerful fist fighter as he is now (but with all new moves).

 

[Tiamat]

if we must have a clone of Mario, at least make it Paper Mario.

Would Paper Mario even be doable as a clone? The animation style and the model itself would have to be completely different from the normal Mario model for it to be Paper Mario, and a different animation style with a different model doesn't seem like it'd be an actual clone to me...

 

[Blazin_Bird]

I love how people say "The reason there are clones is cause the developers got lazy el oh el! Clones are stoopid, I mean Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf? L4ME!1!11one11eleven"

Till you take some animation and design classes and see how much clones are different then their counter parts you need to... shut up. You know how much thought was put into each of the clones moves? "None tehy are da same you n00b el oh el!" Ya, till you look at how EACH freaking move each clone does compared to the original. Take Falco compared to Fox or even Dr. Mario to Mario if you want to talk about a close resemblence. Each and Im literally mean EACH attack move they do has different strength, knockback, and a different angle in which the oppenent is lauched compared to the original, allowing for WAY different gameplay compared to their counter part. Even Pichu's moves have more knockback then Pikachu's (though the fact that almost every move it does hurts itself and the fact that its the lightest char in the game and short range make it a not-so-hot choice as a character) The thing is the developers were really thinking "how can I make this character LOOK the same but act completely different?" And litterly every thought on how the charcter jumps, lands, attacks, smashes, knockbacks, the weight, and all the stuff you take for granted is different on every clone character, which takes alot of thought all together counting in every character. Clones are added cause the developers got lazy? Cause they ran out of ideas? HA! Only if you dont take pride in your game, or if your are just ignorent.

I say if they play completly differernt from the person they are cloned from and allow a WHOLE new style to play keep them in

 

[Elec Man EXE]

Would Paper Mario even be doable as a clone? The animation style and the model itself would have to be completely different from the normal Mario model for it to be Paper Mario, and a different animation style with a different model doesn't seem like it'd be an actual clone to me...

Thats kind of the point... but they are still clones in the sense that they are both Mario. Mario from different worlds, which is leaps better than Mario wearing a doctor smock instead of his normal overalls.

I love how people say "The reason there are clones is cause the developers got lazy el oh el! Clones are stoopid, I mean Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf? L4ME!1!11one11eleven"

Till you take some animation and design classes and see how much clones are different then their counter parts you need to... shut up. You know how much thought was put into each of the clones moves? "None tehy are da same you n00b el oh el!" Ya, till you look at how EACH freaking move each clone does compared to the original. Take Falco compared to Fox or even Dr. Mario to Mario if you want to talk about a close resemblence. Each and Im literally mean EACH attack move they do has different strength, knockback, and a different angle in which the oppenent is lauched compared to the original, allowing for WAY different gameplay compared to their counter part. Even Pichu's moves have more knockback then Pikachu's (though the fact that almost every move it does hurts itself and the fact that its the lightest char in the game and short range make it a not-so-hot choice as a character) The thing is the developers were really thinking "how can I make this character LOOK the same but act completely different?" And litterly every thought on how the charcter jumps, lands, attacks, smashes, knockbacks, the weight, and all the stuff you take for granted is different on every clone character, which takes alot of thought all together counting in every character. Clones are added cause the developers got lazy? Cause they ran out of ideas? HA! Only if you dont take pride in your game, or if your are just ignorent.

I say if they play completly differernt from the person they are cloned from and allow a WHOLE new style to play keep them in

But it IS lazy in some way. Not as lazy as many make it out to be, maybe, because you're right, they do for the most part change something about each and every move, though some are much more apparent than others. But they're still reusing a model and animation of an existing character. Which is still a pretty good indicator that they ran out of time and went the easy route. Especially since a few of the clone characters are just lame. I mean, consider Pichu. Lets say they didn't have a Pikachu model that they could use and change slightly to add Pichu easily. Would they have even considered adding him? Probably not. Same with Doc and maybe for Young Link. The other 3 seem like good enough choices (even if Roy was just for advertisement), and its better having them in as clones than not having them at all. But it still would have been leaps better to have them unique characters, especially Ganondorf. Fox and Falco are on the same team, so its logical for them to be similar (as its logical for Mario and Luigi to be similar). But Ganondorf and Falcon aren't even from the same universe, and that just screams lazy or running out of time.

 

[Red Exodus]

Thats kind of the point... but they are still clones in the sense that they are both Mario. Mario from different worlds, which is leaps better than Mario wearing a doctor smock instead of his normal overalls.



But it IS lazy in some way. Not as lazy as many make it out to be, maybe, because you're right, they do for the most part change something about each and every move, though some are much more apparent than others. But they're still reusing a model and animation of an existing character. Which is still a pretty good indicator that they ran out of time and went the easy route. Especially since a few of the clone characters are just lame. I mean, consider Pichu. Lets say they didn't have a Pikachu model that they could use and change slightly to add Pichu easily. Would they have even considered adding him? Probably not. Same with Doc and maybe for Young Link. The other 3 seem like good enough choices (even if Roy was just for advertisement), and its better having them in as clones than not having them at all. But it still would have been leaps better to have them unique characters, especially Ganondorf. Fox and Falco are on the same team, so its logical for them to be similar (as its logical for Mario and Luigi to be similar). But Ganondorf and Falcon aren't even from the same universe, and that just screams lazy or running out of time.

It isn't the least bit lazy, you are just ungrateful. Sakurai could have easily said, "Dam, we're out of time, we could add 5-6 clones, give people a little variety or we could just ship the game with 20 characters and stop working right now." But he didn't say that did he? He put in clones and each clone has a fanbase, the most respected clone Falco would not be in the game if they thought like you.

You comment marked in bold is probably one of the ignorant comments I've seen in a while. Do you know why Ganon was added? Sakurai wanted him in but they started to run out of time, so they added him instead of just sending the game along without him.

I'd rather see more 20 clones than 5 more original characters. Some original characters and complete crap, like kirby.

 

[Tiamat]

Thats kind of the point... but they are still clones in the sense that they are both Mario. Mario from different worlds, which is leaps better than Mario wearing a doctor smock instead of his normal overalls..

But that's a completely different type of clone than the type of clone everyone else is clearly talking about, here.

Ganondorf and Falcon are clearly two different people but were clones in Smash.

Ditto for Falco and Fox.

And sorta ditto for Pichu and Pikachu.


Ergo, in this definition of "clone", Paper Mario likely could not be a clone of Mario.


...although he'd be a funny reversal of the clone idea. Now instead of a character who clones another character's moves, we have a character who is a clone of another character but with completely different moves and animations despite looking similar but far from exact (which is why Paper Mario couldn't be a classical clone of Mario in the first place)

.................eh, I think there are better choices Sakurai could have for Brawl first. SInce I'm sure Paper Mario, not feasibly being a clone like melee Falco or Pichu, would take just as long to program as an all new character.

 

[Elec Man EXE]

But that's a completely different type of clone than the type of clone everyone else is clearly talking about, here.

Ganondorf and Falcon are clearly two different people but were clones in Smash.

Ditto for Falco and Fox.

And sorta ditto for Pichu and Pikachu.


Ergo, in this definition of "clone", Paper Mario likely could not be a clone of Mario.


...although he'd be a funny reversal of the clone idea. Now instead of a character who clones another character's moves, we have a character who is a clone of another character but with completely different moves and animations despite looking similar but far from exact (which is why Paper Mario couldn't be a classical clone of Mario in the first place)

.................eh, I think there are better choices Sakurai could have for Brawl first. SInce I'm sure Paper Mario, not feasibly being a clone like melee Falco or Pichu, would take just as long to program as an all new character.

I define clone as either of the two, moveset or character. I know a lot of people are going purely on moveset, but I look at both. Neither is ideal, much better to have a character be unique on both fronts. Horrible if they're clones in both aspects. I do agree, there are definately better canidates, in general and from the Mario universe. I only threw in the comment about Paper Mario because it is a somewhat popular series, and with Mario being Nintendo's mascot he seems more likely to have a clone. More an "If we HAVE to get a clone, then make it Paper Mario..." sort of deal than a suggestion toward him.

It isn't the least bit lazy, you are just ungrateful. Sakurai could have easily said, "Dam, we're out of time, we could add 5-6 clones, give people a little variety or we could just ship the game with 20 characters and stop working right now." But he didn't say that did he? He put in clones and each clone has a fanbase, the most respected clone Falco would not be in the game if they thought like you.

You comment marked in bold is probably one of the ignorant comments I've seen in a while. Do you know why Ganon was added? Sakurai wanted him in but they started to run out of time, so they added him instead of just sending the game along without him.

I'd rather see more 20 clones than 5 more original characters. Some original characters and complete crap, like kirby.

The term lazy gets thrown around far too easily these days, and admittedly I use it too often as well. You can't do much when you run out of time, and true laziness would have been, like you said, just not adding any at all. I'm well aware that clones are better than the characters not being there at all. Except maybe Doc and Pichu, since I still don't see any merit to them other than the fact that they were relatively easy to add. I even said something to that effect somewhere in my original post, I believe.

And actually, I have nothing against clones, as long as the fact that they are clones makes sense, and as long as they have their own individual merit as characters. I'd be satisfied if they left Falco exactly as he is now. Not happy, but satisfied. And I don't really expect them to change too much about him, just a "Luigification" deal. Like I said, it makes sense. Ganon-C.Falcon doesn't. Now, is it better that they added Ganondorf as a rediculous clone rather than not at all? Absolutely, the more the merrier and he certainly deserves his spot. Was it laziness making him a clone? No, more an issue of a time limit. I probably shouldn't have used the term lazy at all in that post, truthfully. Even Doc and Pichu are only just bordering on laziness, because while they were just easy adds, it still took some effort to tweak the models and attacks.

Can't agree with your last line, though. Clone characters can just as easily be crap, as Pichu demonstrates quite well. Thats an issue of balance, not an issue of whether the character is unique or a clone.

 

[DainBramaged]

Clones = NO!!!!!!!!!
Alternate Costumes on the other hand.....

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm not even going to try -.0

 

[Sculelos]

I really don't care if clones are in or not, but I am hoping for my favorites to make it, if they make it as a clone so be it.

 

[OysterMeister]

I'm all for clones. They help to add both tactical and visual diversity to the game. It's a safe bet that if Falco wasn't in the melee, we'd all be seeing a lot more Fox players. And that wouldn't be anywhere near as fun.
And even if the clones turn out to be crappy characters, well, I'd much rather have an extra character in the game to fight against and not use than NOT have a character at all.

Besides, clones are added after the point of no return, when the creation of a fully unique character is no longer a possibility. So we can all rest assured than any clones we see in Brawl won't have taken away precious development time from the unique characters.

Also: We know from the move swap videos that Mr. G&W is a fully 3D character with some kinda crazy real-time flatening affect placed on him to make him 2D. With a little ingenuity, it's not to far fetch to imagine the same thing being done to Mario for the creation of a Paper Mario clone.