Should "Clones" Return? Thread.

[MeloDeath]

whoa Oystermeister. I said mild luigification. I didn;t mean the actual reference to the diference between Mario and Luigi, i meant a slight alteration. I does show that there are seperate opinions as to what a clone is.
Is it a character with almost equal appearance and moveset, where the diference lies in altered jumps, hangtime, knockbacks, range (especially B-moves) ?
With all clones this is definition is correct.
So what makes aclone diferent from a new character?
Lets pick the mario-Luigi example.
Clearly diferent, right ?
Nair's---a bit diferent, but same style sex-kick
fair---- very diferent... like Ganon and capt's ?
Dair ---- Drill / asswhoopkick, very differnt, like Fox and Falco's ?

You get the point. there's not really much diferent about the movesets.
Weight and floatiness however are quite diferent.

i guess runningspeed doesnt make a character new, cos Ganon and Capt are two extremes.
Only floatiness seems to pass the test as a characteristic that really makes a character new or clone.

 

[smash~bomber]

First, melee sucked compared to the original. It's too fast and hopefully Brawl will be more like the 64 version, so therefore, no clones. If the characters are going to return, their moves need to change. Roy or Marth, we don't need both of those douches. Mario or Dr. Mario, also supid, and the same. Falco, Gannondorf, Young Link and Pichu.... stupid. We don't need the same characters twice. Luigi and Jiggly were the limit for clones. The characters are supposed to be unique, if they were supposed to have more power, thats the way the geniuses who created smash would have had it. That is the beauth of this game, well the first one, the second one still sucks in my mind.

MARTH?! what the f*** s so cloney about marth? roy is his clone, marth is no-one's clone, marth is unlocked first, and HIS fire emblem came out first, he's his own unique character with his own unique moves, get your fizzacts straight bizzitch. and wtf is wrong with melee? its considered the perfect ssb, not like ssb 64 which was super limited and clunky, not bad graphics though, pssh, there werent even many side+b's in ssb64 (that i remember, if any) so nyah.
and don't take this too personally.....

 

[OysterMeister]

whoa Oystermeister. I said mild luigification. I didn;t mean the actual reference to the diference between Mario and Luigi, i meant a slight alteration. I does show that there are seperate opinions as to what a clone is.
Is it a character with almost equal appearance and moveset, where the diference lies in altered jumps, hangtime, knockbacks, range (especially B-moves) ?
With all clones this is definition is correct.
So what makes aclone diferent from a new character?
Lets pick the mario-Luigi example.
Clearly diferent, right ?
Nair's---a bit diferent, but same style sex-kick
fair---- very diferent... like Ganon and capt's ?
Dair ---- Drill / asswhoopkick, very differnt, like Fox and Falco's ?

You get the point. there's not really much diferent about the movesets.
Weight and floatiness however are quite diferent.

i guess runningspeed doesnt make a character new, cos Ganon and Capt are two extremes.
Only floatiness seems to pass the test as a characteristic that really makes a character new or clone.

Um, no. Floatiness has nothing to do with it. A new character is one built from scratch, a clone is a character built useing a finished character as a starting point. That's the difference. For example:
All of Luigi's attack animations are different from Mario's. Look at their fireballs, or up B, or down B moves. There's no reason for Luigi to pose differently when shooting a fireball, or when he spins. The fact that Luigi moves differently during these and all other similar attacks is proof that he isn't a clone, because if he was a clone he would have been built off of Mario, and thus could have just re-used the already existing fire ball, jumping, and spinning animations. But he was built from scratch, and thus didn't have access to Mario's animation when he was being created.
Its origins as another character is what makes a clone a clone, because starting from an existing character is easier and quicker than creating a new one from scratch. Saving time is why clones are made. A luigi-style character, on the other hand, takes as much time to make as any other new character.
That's why I'm saying you can't replace clone characters with luigified characters. Because luigified characters don't save enough time. Clone characters save time, that's why they were cloned in the first place.

 

[GameFreaking]

The fact that there were clones didnt bother me. By all means I believe the characters of Pichu, Roy, Gannondorf, and Falco should be kept in Brawl simply because they are there own characters, despite the fact that they have the similar move sets as the characters they are cloned from.

I didnt like the characters of Dr. Mario and Young Link because they were the same character as Mario and Link, with twists.

I feel the movesets should be similar, while the characters should be different.

 

[matthewmilad]

Roy's up B is more horizontal than Marths. The forward B's carry them the same amount if not slightly less for Roy.

 

[matthewmilad]

Clones for the most part are fine. Fox and Falco play completely differently. Link and Young Linkare understandable as to why they play similarly. Doc is kinda unnecessary though different enough. I love Pichu. Pikachu is horrible in Melee, he used to be my main in 64. Kirby is awful too. Pichu would be good with some minor changes.
1) An un-DI-able forward smash.
2) A wider hit-box on up smash.
3) A more consecutively hitting forward air.

With those slight improvements, Pichu becomes great!!

I think the only reason anyone has to complain about clones is Ganon Falcon.
It makes no sense with them, lol.

But with a slightly altered Up B, a new neutral B, and a new Up Tilt, Ganon can become better and more distinguished at the same time.

Yes to clones for me, because sometimes it's good to have similar moves on different characters. I want Waluigi to come out playing similarly to Mario and Luigi, and Wolf similar to Fox and Falco.

Brawl is gonna be great!!!

 

[petre]

link and young link are understandable, doc is different enough, but ganondorf makes no sense??? hahaha, have you played ganon and captian falcon? theyre entirely different. falcons all about speed and comboing, and ganon is about landing a single hit, that may either lead to another hit or knock the opponent off for edgeguarding, since each hit is so strong. i think they are fine.

 

[the grim lizard]

I feel in a rejuvenation mood today...

First, they are clones, not exact copies. And before I continue, Jigglypuff is not a clone. That's the dumbest thing ever. Even that dumb kid who first brought it up was talking about how 64 was better. Well, in Polygon team, Jigglypuff was a round ball, and kirby was a little stack of...donuts...or something... And only 6 characters out of 20 original movesets had clones. Get it right.

Also, as I once said, "A luigified clone is scarcely a clone at all."

Doc easily the closest (duh), but his pills had different effects, his fair was better, and his ^B went a little higher and jerked him a little bit closer to the edge. Young Link played almost entirely different from Link. His arrows were actually useful, and all of his items had completely different effects (i.e., they were better). He was faster, and some of his moves were stronger, etc. Just different effects...anyone who's played him knows that.

Roy had fire damage to his attacks, and his strong part of the sword was in th middle rather than at the tip like Marth's (if it was the other way around, there'd be a crap-load more Roy players). Pichu was just lighter all around and had different effects. Ganondorf was different from Falcon in a lot of ways. Falco, too.

We understand how they're alike and how they're different; that's what makes them clones. Their moves are (essentially) the same, but they have different effects and different stats. The character has a different feel and is a different type. I understand wanting a lot of new movesets, but it should be accepted as an inevitability and applied to the characters where it is most appropriate (so as to avoid, as someone said, something like Ganondorf being a Falcon clone).

They are useful. I would venture to guess that there were more clones players than original players...that probably gets a little iffy with Marth upsetting the balance so much and maybe with Link's popularity.But in any case, people liked them. People played them. People played around with both Fox and Falco and chose Falco. People played around with both Link and Y. Link and chose Y. Link. People like the variety. It shouldn't be overdone, but it should be implemented where appropriate.

They have their place. It is beneficial to two characters with similar movesets and different stats. So, I say, hats off to the new clones and welcome.

 

[Darkfur]

Clones = More character added during crunch time.

More characters IMO = Awesome

Therefore Clones = Awesome.

Thats how I look at it.

 

[TDub301]

Hm, you make a good point, grim lizard. For the purposes of having more options, it's good to have clones. I guess since there's only a certain number of characters in the game, I suppose the choice really boils down to, would you like to have a space taken up by a clone? or a completely new moveset? I don't mind clones, as long as they feel a lot different than their counterparts. But I'd rather a space be used for a completely original character than a clone, since it's so limited. But having clones wouldn't make me like the game any less, maybe I'd wish there were some changes, but it wouldn't break my love for Brawl if it had clones.

 

[stranga]

I don't mind clones if their are only a few like in melee but if for every character their is a clone then thats when I am against it.

 

[NukeA6]

I remember the last time I posted in this type of thread, I said HELL NO!!

But now, I'm ok with them but in one condition.

I don't want clones that are almost exactly like some character or a baby version of them.

That means no Pichu, Dr. Mario, Metal Mario, Baby Mario, Blood Falcon, etc.

Also no clones of third party characters.

Here's some examples of acceptable clones:

Dixie (clone of Diddy)
Ayra (clone of Lyn)
Roy (clone of Ike)
Twili Midna (clone of Zelda)
Infernape (clone of Lucario)

 

[the grim lizard]

That means no Pichu, Dr. Mario, Metal Mario, Baby Mario, Blood Falcon, etc.

Blood Falcon is already in ...

 

[dynamic_entry]

i had a clone once.....

 

[mukoe890]

itd be cool if they had a clone of someone in the idea of zero suit samus. taking away a characters main abilities and giving them something else making them quicker

 

[Gea]

Blood Falcon is already in ...

By that standard Wario is too.

At any rate I don't see the issue of keeping all of the characters they already have and doing minor tweaks. Honestly only graphics would need updating as well as minor debugging and if they really wanted to, fixing the movesets a smidge. I'd rather have Doc with updated graphics but the same as melee than no Doc at all.

 

[Aki-toriko]

It depends what kind of clones you are talking about. Characters like Luigi are fine because he has enough moves of his own to make him unique, but characters like Dr Mario, Pichu and Young Link, who are exactly the same as the characters they we're cloned from, are not.
Clones generally however are lazy and I hope there aren't any in Brawl. If they are, please keep them to a minimum Sakurai

 

[NukeA6]

Blood Falcon is already in ...

As a pallette he is but not as a seperate character. Daisy is too and should remain that way.

 

[Copperpot]

Clones are okay as long as they are, like others have said, altered enough so that they feel like a unique character. Gannondorf was different enough from Falcon to the point where he takes on his own entity (and that I actually enjoy playing as him despite disliking Falcon). Dr. Mario, in my eyes, displays a few minor changes that aren't pivotal to the character nor should they constitute anything above a costume change. Pichu, Falco, Roy, Young Link (to a lesser extent), and above all Pichu all follow this same relative principle. Before you say anything, yes, I listed Pichu twice (for effect).

Ideally, no, there shouldn't be any clones. The whole concept behind them screams incompletion, and I don't think that fans expecting a full, finished game should have to settle for even a couple characters that aren't brought up to par with the rest.

 

[Gea]

Assuming they are just tweaking melee balance, why should they leave out characters already made that just need an updating? I mean if Doc came back exactly the same but with smoother graphics, you're making more people happy.

If you don't want to play as Doc, don't. :O But why limit yourself when the resources are already there and the time "Luigi-fying" said clones could be spent making new characters, but updating is effectively giving you more characters overall than you would have otherwise.

They are in Melee and we're all playing Melee... so seriously, why not? If we did it by character popularity many clones wouldn't be gone... but bowser sure would be, yet the argument is not to take bowser out despite the fact that his userbase is one of the smallest.

Interestingly enough I think by saying "IT LOOKS UNFINISHED," you are missing the point entirely. You either have more options (and many are popular), more characters, and more appeal to entire audiences, or you just have less characters overall.

I am not saying they should make more clones, however, why take any out? Honestly. They all have fanbases and all "clones" in Melee are drastically different in high level play. Does melee really look shoddy? Considering its release date, it looks, feels, and plays **** good. It doesn't look rushed at all.

Basically you're saying cosmetics are more important to you all than content. As it was brought up before (and time again) all "clones" were given different move mechanics, frame data... its actually impressive how different they are while being so aestically similar.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

*Laughs at RADskater00's posts...*

more clones = more characters

so, yes.

I agree with this post. We may not nessicarily like the idea of our favorite characters being turned into copies, clones and more characters > not clones and fewer characters.

 

[theygotleader]

I'd rather have 4 clones for 25 characters than 1 for 12. Other than the clones, Melee was a huge improvement over the clunky and limited SSB64.

I completly agree

clones are usefull yet pointless by that I meen marth and roy compared to fox falco

there needs to be more clones like falco and less like roy

 

[CartooN]

I dont think they should get rid of any. All Melee characters should be converted over to brawl, just dont add any new ones to the list.

 

[MeloDeath]

Gea, you rock.

You are right in many ways.
Only thing is that the makers of brawl only have an amount of focus they can spend. A graphically enhanced clone from melee takes minor effort to create and thus leaves room for other improvements.

But... i would not be satisfied if brawl becomes a "melee patch", and i think neither one of us is looking forward to such a game. So basically my point is that ferrying clones over from melee is a good thing under one condition: they have to keep their focus total fixed on innovation and not re-novation (masterful word-play )

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I remember the last time I posted in this type of thread, I said HELL NO!!

But now, I'm ok with them but in one condition.

I don't want clones that are almost exactly like some character or a baby version of them.

That means no Pichu, Dr. Mario, Metal Mario, Baby Mario, Blood Falcon, etc.

Also no clones of third party characters.

Here's some examples of acceptable clones:

Dixie (clone of Diddy)
Lyn (clone of Ayra)
Roy (clone of Ike)
Twili Midna (clone of Zelda)
Infernape (clone of Lucario)

Fixed.

I wouldn't mind seeing some clones.As long as they have enough unique characters to fill the gap,I would be happy if they added alot of clones.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Like I said in another thread...like months ago, I guess. I'd rather have my favorite characters in the game as clones than not at all. Also, is it really necessary for Sakurai to come up with 30+ entirely different characters? Could he even balance that many different fighting styles and movesets with less than a year of playtesting?

 

[Viroxor]

I don't like the clones concept, as much sense as it SOMETIMES makes. For example, I could see Fox and Falco using almost the same fighting style, but Ganondorf and Captain Falcon? No way. I'm personally writing a petition to get Falco his own moveset. I don't like the whole clones concept, but, as you said, I'd rather them be there as clones than not at all. It's just I'd rather them be there independently than as clones.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

I don't like the clones concept, as much sense as it SOMETIMES makes. For example, I could see Fox and Falco using almost the same fighting style, but Ganondorf and Captain Falcon? No way. I'm personally writing a petition to get Falco his own moveset. I don't like the whole clones concept, but, as you said, I'd rather them be there as clones than not at all. It's just I'd rather them be there independently than as clones.

Yeah. While Ganondorf made some sense logically (he's a big, strong dude. Just change the fire to EEEEVIL-NESS,) the actual act of cloning him from Captain Falcon just wasn't all that cool. But then I kind of do like clones that make sense, in generalities. I honestly am not entirely sure if I want to see a game with more than 30 entirely different characters as it would generally be impossible to balance. But 25-30 originals and 15 clones? As long as they make sense, hell yeah, sign me up!

 

[Blackadder]

Well, luigified clones arent to bad.
From there its kick-them out for me.
I dislike clones...I would prefer every character to be unique.
Yes, EVEN pichu.
*shock*

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Well, luigified clones arent to bad.
From there its kick-them out for me.
I dislike clones...I would prefer every character to be unique.
Yes, EVEN pichu.
*shock*

As long as you're fine with the game either taking another year to make or having half the characters it could.

 

[Copperpot]

Interestingly enough I think by saying "IT LOOKS UNFINISHED," you are missing the point entirely. You either have more options (and many are popular), more characters, and more appeal to entire audiences, or you just have less characters overall.

I'm not missing the point and its entirety. I said it doesn't feel complete. That's what I meant. Having Doc and company in the game is fine by me, but they should only warrant a costume change, nothing else. Leaving them on the main roster only shows me that a third of the characters were half-*****. Again, give them their own moveset, or make them a costume change (along with their respective abilities). Everyone is happy either way.

I am not saying they should make more clones, however, why take any out? Honestly. They all have fanbases and all "clones" in Melee are drastically different in high level play. Does melee really look shoddy? Considering its release date, it looks, feels, and plays **** good. It doesn't look rushed at all.

It doesn't "look" rushed, but every time I play as Ganondorf, I'm wondering to myself why I'm playing as a Captain Falcon clone. Some of these characters have way more potential than being carbon-copies of (in some cases) lesser characters.

Basically you're saying cosmetics are more important to you all than content. As it was brought up before (and time again) all "clones" were given different move mechanics, frame data... its actually impressive how different they are while being so aestically similar.

It has nothing to do with cosmetics, and more to do with shoddy content. I understand why Sakurai had to do it the first time, but why blindly walk into the same situation again? Know what you need to get in the game, and get it done.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Shoddy? Dude, no offense meant, but how many games have you been involved in making?

Sakurai, or any smart game designer that efficiently recycles content, isn't trying to 'trick' people into thinking his team did more work than they did. They're trying to give people the most fun possible with a limited amount of time and money. I think it's safe to assume the majority of Smash sales are just regular gamers who want to play as their favorite Nintendo characters. Honestly, I'd much rather be playing Lucario as a Fox clone this time next year and be happy with it instead of playing an entirely original character that I...just don't care that much about.

...Ganondorf didn't really make much sense, though.


I had a local game designer visit our program recently, actually, and he said some pretty interesting things. The best quote, though, was along the lines of, 'The thing about making a game is that you're never done with it. You're never really done with it. It just gets to a point where you're out of time and/or money and you give up on it. You give up on it because you know it's good enough and you've gone as far as you can with it.'

I think the only designers that can take as much time as they want to make games are the really big names that aren't tied to any one console, (so there's not as much rush to make a 'system selling game' like Smash,) and Miyamoto. ...And the guy behind Duke Nukem Forever, apparently.

So, it comes down to what will help the majority of players have more fun; fewer characters, all original, or a larger roster with a handful of clones at the end. We all might have our own opinions on this, but in the end we'll have to see what Sakurai says.

 

[Onifrio]

Sakurai already said somewhere that all the clones were being redone or done with.
Clones screwed over alot of characters.

Doc>Mario and they are almost exactly the same so nobody uses mario (i dont mean literally nobody)

Pikachu > Pichu so pichu is just there.

Falco is the only clone i like.

Ganondorf just got screwed out of a moveset.

 

[Gea]

Shoddy? Dude, no offense meant, but how many games have you been involved in making?

Sakurai, or any smart game designer that efficiently recycles content, isn't trying to 'trick' people into thinking his team did more work than they did. They're trying to give people the most fun possible with a limited amount of time and money. I think it's safe to assume the majority of Smash sales are just regular gamers who want to play as their favorite Nintendo characters. Honestly, I'd much rather be playing Lucario as a Fox clone this time next year and be happy with it instead of playing an entirely original character that I...just don't care that much about.

...Ganondorf didn't really make much sense, though.


I had a local game designer visit our program recently, actually, and he said some pretty interesting things. The best quote, though, was along the lines of, 'The thing about making a game is that you're never done with it. You're never really done with it. It just gets to a point where you're out of time and/or money and you give up on it. You give up on it because you know it's good enough and you've gone as far as you can with it.'

I think the only designers that can take as much time as they want to make games are the really big names that aren't tied to any one console, (so there's not as much rush to make a 'system selling game' like Smash,) and Miyamoto. ...And the guy behind Duke Nukem Forever, apparently.

So, it comes down to what will help the majority of players have more fun; fewer characters, all original, or a larger roster with a handful of clones at the end. We all might have our own opinions on this, but in the end we'll have to see what Sakurai says.

Quoted for the truth.

 

[K Balls]

all i have to say is clones r a waste and if they put those clones characters back in there you guys know what i am talking about, they should have there own DIFFERENT move sets. if they dont then dont bring them back, add new different character in the mix

 

[Sraigux]

I think clones deserve to return but they shouldn't make clones of any new characters, the old clones had some unique moves that were oodles of fun to play with (a.k.a jigglypuff's neutral B attack) others were just plain powerful (a.k.a gannondorf's and falco's dairs) I say the more the merrier, plus it would be a shame lose ssb characters

 

[Ferret]

I hope no more clones will be added.
The only clone who's ok IMO is Falco.
Dr. Mario and Pichu don't make any sense to me and Ganondorf.....well....when I saw him I didn't expect him to be a **** clone
I was really disappointed back then -.-

 

[DonkeySmasher]

clones can be good if they are luigified

i don't have an opinion but would you have

35 characters 0 clones

40 characters 7 luigi clones

45 characters 7 luigi clones and 3 clones

 

[PrinnyFlute]

clones can be good if they are luigified

i don't have an opinion but would you have

35 characters 0 clones

40 characters 7 luigi clones

45 characters 7 luigi clones and 3 clones

Shouldn't the number of characters go down as the number of clones go up?

Like...

40 Originals (like that'd happen)

vs

35 Originals and 15 Clones?

 

[DonkeySmasher]

the number of characters is the total amount