Should characters with 1 hit k.o moves be banned

[smashingDoug]

way to random
easy to counter yes but still something what should actually be thought about imo
I don't know how his up smash works is it random or a sweet spot?

I don't Remember off the top of my head of any other characters having a 1 hit K.O move

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A lot of potential 1-hit KO moves tend to be very situational to use. Just because they can KO early, does not mean that you can depend on them.

 

[icecooler]

game and watchs is super inconsistent, little mac has to get his ass beat before he can use his and im not sure what youre talking about with luigi but if its on a smash attack im sure they'll fix it before release. Just dont get hit it doesnt seem like there's any true combos into them

 

[tecmo]

No. this is kinda obvious tbh

game and watchs is super inconsistent, little mac has to get his *** beat before he can use his and im not sure what youre talking about with luigi but if its on a smash attack im sure they'll fix it before release. Just dont get hit it doesnt seem like there's any true combos into them

For what it’s worth, in smash 4 down and up tilt true combo into ko punch at reasonable percents. Same for Downthrow to side b with game and watch. However hit little Mac once and it disappears and game and watch just has to get lucky so I feel it’s balanced

 

[icecooler]

No. this is kinda obvious tbh



For what it’s worth, in smash 4 down and up tilt true combo into ko punch at reasonable percents. Same for Downthrow to side b with game and watch. However hit little Mac once and it disappears and game and watch just has to get lucky so I feel it’s balanced

and they have specific setups, so if little mac has a ko punch ill know to watch out for dtilts. The argument that these setups should be banned is valid (kinda), but not the character entirely

 

[Christian_CAO]

the only ko move luigi has to my knowledge is his goofy down taunt that spikes you if he lands it :T

You're crazy if you think they'd ban a character for having ko moves.
Jigglypuff is practically the poster child of insta kill in melee with rest and it hasn't been brought up (recently) to have Jiggs banned for it (even though the move is stupid, the character is stupid, redesign plox, wtf is wrong with them, going to sleep shouldn't do any of that ****, it's not creative it's nonsensically ridiculous)

 

[Luigifan18]

IIRC, Roy's Flare Blade is a OHKO when fully charged... but if you can actually land a fully-charged Flare Blitz, your opponent is either AFK, jobbing, or a complete moron.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

The randomness means and can't rely on their OHKO moves unless they somehow hacked the TO's console, and if we're going out of our way to ban randomness, why stop at these two? We would also have to ban , , probably , most likely , and more I can't think of right now. In the case of , he has to charge it up to actually get its benefits, and by that time, his opponent is already in kill percents. It really isn't powerful in the slightest and shouldn't even be considered ban worthy, but if you're going to ban the poor guy because of an OHKO move, why stop at him? Why should , , , , , or anyone with a counter or reflector have the right to stay? Yeah, counters and reflectors can OHKO certain fighters.

Banning characters because a move that has the potential to end in an OHKO is just a stupid idea.

 

[Blue Rose]

Do you mean Luigi's up-b? Also no G&W is random and unreliable, Little Mac has no air game and gets gimed early and easily, Luigi's has a small sweetspot and for Little Mac and Luigi's they don't kill at low percents.

 

[smashingDoug]

Yes sorry guys should of went into a little more detail. I was referred to Luigi's up B yes.


Well I guess I have bad luck with going up against game & watch then. Every time he hits me bam 9 on the first try. Hell I was hit with it back to back once.


But wow I forgot Jigglypuff lol

 

[Crystanium]

I think OHKO options should be extremely difficult to land and occur. Their hitboxes should be smaller, and no should be easy to land after a combo set-up.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

IIRC, Roy's Flare Blitz is a OHKO when fully charged... but if you can actually land a fully-charged Flare Blitz, your opponent is either AFK, jobbing, or a complete moron.

Don't you mean Flare Blade? The full charge is not a guaranteed 1-hit KO, unless the target is near the edge of a stage. Despite having higher BKB, the full charge's KBG is lower than that of the weaker charge levels, so you'd actually make the KO much sooner if Flare Blade is nearing its full charge state.

 

[Luigifan18]

Don't you mean Flare Blade? The full charge is not a guaranteed 1-hit KO, unless the target is near the edge of a stage. Despite having higher BKB, the full charge's KBG is lower than that of the weaker charge levels, so you'd actually make the KO much sooner if Flare Blade is nearing its full charge state.

Yes, I meant Flare Blade. From reading Smash Wiki, the fully-charged move does have OHKO power; though a near-fully-charged Flare Blade does indeed have higher knockback growth than a fully-charged Flare Blade, at least in Smash 4, the knockback growth increase of near-fully-charged doesn't fully compensate for the higher base knockback of fully-charged until the target is at around 120% damage.

Also, Ike's Eruption and DK's Giant Punch have devastatingly high knockback (the former being essentially an OHKO) if performed immediately before they're fully charged... and I do mean immediately; the timing window for maximum knockback is 1 frame long! Giant Punch's charge can be stored, making it possible to carry around a near-fully-charged punch and unleash it at the right time, but landing a near-fully-charged Eruption requires a harder-than-diamond read (it only really begins to be feasible when being used for edgeguarding).

 

[Dr. λ]

I consider them anti-competitive but not to the extend to warrant a ban.

Judge is random and randomness is anti-competitive. This is one of the worst. Saying it is inconsistent is no excuse at all because moves are supposed to be consistent. They should consistently succeed when you outplay your opponent and consistently fail when your opponent outplays you. There is no defending Judge.

KO Punch is less obvious but I still think it is anti-competitive. It is extremely high-risk/high-reward. With extreme high-risk/high-reward moves one can win with a spike of luck. With low-risk/low-reward moves a spike of luck is often useless because that spike of luck will not be game changing and thus will probably be compensated for during the rest of the match courtesy of the law of large numbers.

Luigi's ^B (I assume OP meant that) is a bit like KO Punch but less high reward. I have no problem with this move since it is not nearly as easy to hit as KO Punch and unlike the very rare cases that I get hit by KO Punch when I get hit by Luigi's ^B it normally seems deserved.
However Luigi's Green Missle is anti-competitive due to being luck based.

Another almost 1HKO character that I do have problems with is Lucario. He rewards bad play and a large part of his moveset changes into almost 1HKO moves if he has been outplayed often enough. I do not think that characters should be rewarded for getting hit a lot.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

No. Game and Watch is random, situational and inconsistent. Little Mac needs to get beau up before KO punch works, and you're talking about Luigi's up B, which yes, requires a sweetspot, which is super hard to reach. You're talking about banning mid/low tiers, which is ridiculous.

 

[SmashBro99]

- The move is stupid, but the character is a joke so he needs something to try and save him from never being used.
- If you get hit by his Up+B you got outplayed/read, if used at the wrong time you get a free punish.
- Random.
- Rest also relies on a good read and if missed you get anything you want in a punish.

none of these are op and def dont need to be banned.

 

[Yosher]

While I disagree that it should be banned, anything that can combo into a (potential) OHKO move just shouldn't exist IMO, unless it's punishable enough like Jigglypuff's Rest so that there's at least a risk involved. G&W's hammer, while random, is just a bit too easy to hit with and isn't very easily punishable. You could just spam down throw to side B until you get the lucky number and that's incredibly tedious and aggravating when fighting G&W. OHKO's should be high-risk high-reward, not lottery lucky. You could take away G&W's number 9 hammer and he'd still be an excellent character, he does not need a confirm combo into a OHKO move, no matter how random it is to actually hit the 9.

All other OHKO's are fine as they have some kind of gimmick or are very easily punishable, and really they're not even proper OHKO's as characters can still survive at very low percents, at least in Smash 4, as far as I recall (haven't played Smash 4 in a while so I may be wrong).

 

[staindgrey]

No.

I'm only typing this sentence to meet the character requirement to post.

 

[Dr. λ]

G&W's hammer, while random, is just a bit too easy to hit with and isn't very easily punishable.

Actually both 1 and 2 do hardly have knockback and often give chance to get a free hit on G&W if he hits unless he gets 2 and the 20% chance of tripping comes true, in addition 1 does 12% to G&W whether he hits or misses. Judge is easy to punish if you are lucky.

 

[Yosher]

Actually both 1 and 2 do hardly have knockback and often give chance to get a free hit on G&W if he hits unless he gets 2 and the 20% chance of tripping comes true, in addition 1 does 12% to G&W whether he hits or misses. Judge is easy to punish if you are lucky.

Still doesn't seem like quite a balanced payoff IMO. Especially with how common the number 9 seemed to be in Smash 4. I swear it was incredibly common there, at least whenever I played as, or against him. It's just not fun.

 

[SmashBro99]

Get more experience against these moves and how to avoid/punish and they wont seem so op tbh.

G&W's randomness is fine, some of the numbers allow for a punish, pretty sure you cant true combo dthrow to hammer anymore anyway? So if you get hit by a 9, you got read/outplayed and also they were lucky. Not bannable at all ever.

 

[Yosher]

All I'm saying is that, as it is, the 9 hammer is just too easy to hit with and not punishable enough for what it can do, and for how good G&W is even without that move. It's not good enough to be banned, no, but still way better than it should be. It shouldn't be banned, or even just be taken out, but it should be toned down, at least in frequency of getting the 9. I swear each time I played as, or against G&W, and that move was used, the 9 came out at least 1 in 5 times. That is incredibly irritating.

 

[Ultrashroomz]

Pretty much all OHKO moves in Smash are either extremely inconsistent, or very difficult to land in a 1v1 scenario when both players know what they're doing, so no.

 

[SmashBro99]

All I'm saying is that, as it is, the 9 hammer is just too easy to hit with and not punishable enough for what it can do, and for how good G&W is even without that move. It's not good enough to be banned, no, but still way better than it should be. It shouldn't be banned, or even just be taken out, but it should be toned down, at least in frequency of getting the 9. I swear each time I played as, or against G&W, and that move was used, the 9 came out at least 1 in 5 times. That is incredibly irritating.

And all I'm saying is that you are wrong about it...lol

9 is in no way easy to hit, and the move is plenty punishable.

Judge is fine where it is.

 

[Dr. λ]

And all I'm saying is that you are wrong about it...lol

9 is in no way easy to hit, and the move is plenty punishable.

Judge is fine where it is.

Judge is pretty bad and therefore the effect that it's randomness has on the game is too small too warrant a ban. But that does not change the fact that a random reward/punishment for outplaying the opponent is bad for the competitiveness of the game.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Judge is pretty bad and therefore the effect that it's randomness has on the game is too small too warrant a ban. But that does not change the fact that a random reward/punishment for outplaying the opponent is bad for the competitiveness of the game.

The randomness has a 1/9 chance of outputting a massive reward, and an 8/9 chance of outputing a less than desirable reward. Game and Watch players know the risk involved, and the circumstances around the move do not warrant a ban in any way.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Unless those 3 start dominating all tournaments, I say no. Until then keep them unbanned.

 

[Sudz]

way to random
easy to counter yes but still something what should actually be thought about imo
I don't know how his up smash works is it random or a sweet spot?

I don't Remember off the top of my head of any other characters having a 1 hit K.O move

Banning balanced / underpowered characters is big yikes. No thanks. Disagree. 1HKOs are hype and do not contribute to any game breaking strats.

 

[Dr. λ]

The randomness has a 1/9 chance of outputting a massive reward, and an 8/9 chance of outputing a less than desirable reward. Game and Watch players know the risk involved, and the circumstances around the move do not warrant a ban in any way.

Judge is anti-competitive. G&W knowing the risks of Judge does not make it's randomness any less anti-competitive. Randomness is always anti-competitive when it can change the outcome of a match.

But you do not have to tell me that this move does not warrant a ban. We agree on this point. The influence of Judge's randomness is too small to warrant a ban due to Judge being a bad move.

 

[SmashBro99]

So Peach is broken cuz she can spawn the stitch/bomb?/saturn?...haha

Ban her

 

[Mic_128]

So Peach is broken cuz she can spawn the stitch/bomb?/saturn?...haha

Ban her

Peach pulls out items
Items are banned
Therefore, Peach is Banned

 

[Dr. λ]

Peach pulls out items
Items are banned
Therefore, Peach is Banned

Only cheap people main characters who spawn items and frankly those people should all be banned from every tournament from now on.

 

[Manonymous]

Well, OHKOs are rare, and difficult to land or predictable, so it's a big NO. Characters are balanced enough to avoid being broken.

 

[meleebrawler]

Only cheap people main characters who spawn items and frankly those people should all be banned from every tournament from now on.

Better ban all the Links, Megaman, Pac-Man, Bowser Jr. and R.O.B.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The only fighter who actually has a 1 hit KO who isn't mid/low tier is Cloud's limit break. He basically has extra final smashes with them, not to mention it can be charged passively. No, I'm not saying that Cloud should be banned, I'm saying that Cloud mains are ****ing degenerates most fighters with one hit KO moves tent to be lower on the tier list for a reason.

 

[Christian_CAO]

...are you guys serious?

get out of here, you're all too cute.
No really.
Get out of here ಠ_ಠ

Also, anyone who gets caught in roy's fully charged neutral special DESERVES to be instantly ko'ed.

Why is this even a thread? It's not even a debate. Nothing can be gained from this kind of speculation

 

[Mogisthelioma]

...are you guys serious?

View attachment 179139

get out of here, you're all too cute.
No really.
Get out of here ಠ_ಠ

Also, anyone who gets caught in roy's fully charged neutral special DESERVES to be instantly ko'ed.

Why is this even a thread? It's not even a debate. Nothing can be gained from this kind of speculation

shhhHHHHHhhhh
We're trying to meme our way through this, don't kill it.

 

[meleebrawler]

The only fighter who actually has a 1 hit KO who isn't mid/low tier is Cloud's limit break. He basically has extra final smashes with them, not to mention it can be charged passively. No, I'm not saying that Cloud should be banned, I'm saying that Cloud mains are ****ing degenerates most fighters with one hit KO moves tent to be lower on the tier list for a reason.

Finishing Touch is pretty far from a one-hit kill (usually takes around 50%), and has it's own downsides of doing basically nothing if it doesn't kill and being very punishable on shield.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Finishing Touch is pretty far from a one-hit kill (usually takes around 50%), and has it's own downsides of doing basically nothing if it doesn't kill and being very punishable on shield.

That's true, but Cloud has no problem stringing moves into a limit break. The only way his limit brea moves become punishable is if he just runs up to the player and hopes they don't use shield.

 

[Sudz]

Only cheap people main characters who spawn items and frankly those people should all be banned from every tournament from now on.

Biggest yikes. Imagine actually believing this.

Nice meme