Shinegrabs! How good is it?

[ConnorTheKid]

I think Shine grabs ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcqJXDzqlmU&feature=channel_page


0:25, 0:51, 1:20 - 1:26, 1:37, 1:43, 2:17, 2:49, 2:58.

Shinegrabs on shield = guranteed grab unless they buffer roll.
Shinegrabs as a combo = adds little damage but looks sexy.
Shinegrabs on DK/Bowser shield = cancels their up+b OoS and you grab them

I think shinegrabs could really take the metagame somewhere. What do you guys think?

 

[Tero.]

What do you guys think?

I thought I was the only Fox using this.

Edit:
**** you and your topic. =P

 

[ZoSo]

It's pretty good. Good players won't usually let themselves get stuck in their shield. If you pressure somebody to the point where they shield out of intimidation, you can pretty much always forego the shine and grab them. Also, if they try to shieldgrab the aerial they just take a few percent, get pushed away, and the whole situation resets.

You just have to be completely fluent with it and know when to incorporate it into other forms of shield pressure.

The main use for it that I've found is punishing spotdodges (the shine misses then you grab them).

 

[joeplicate]

shinegrabs **** unconditionally

if you want to catch your opponent super off-guard and **** their brain, do them

 

[ArcNatural]

It's pretty good. Good players won't usually let themselves get stuck in their shield. If you pressure somebody to the point where they shield out of intimidation, you can pretty much always forego the shine and grab them. Also, if they try to shieldgrab the aerial they just take a few percent, get pushed away, and the whole situation resets.

You just have to be completely fluent with it and know when to incorporate it into other forms of shield pressure.

The main use for it that I've found is punishing spotdodges (the shine misses then you grab them).

My main uses are for shine grabbing Zoso. But I'm extremely random with it (I don't think I've missed grabbing him once :D).

 

[`DNS`]

I did this a long time ago, but i never thought it was useful.. you can even get luigi with a grab after the shine hits.

 

[TresChikon]

They can still nail you while you're in the aerial. Like Samus :/

 

[RaynEX]

C0nn0r did some good **** by making ths thread. Fox's shinegrab really is underused.

I suggest you use it much differently than C0nn0r uses it in his matches against Mexican, though. When you spam it every 10 or so seconds like that, it loses almost all its utility - and looks really silly. You landed the shine so many times, but because you were only going for the shinegrab you got no follow-up on those shinesd AND missed your grabs as well. Its best used as an alternative way to shield pressure your opponent.

I can't lie, the upb clinks to grab were super fluke. Good luck adding a technique that requires 1 frame timing into your game. Its only real use is on people who sit in shield, and I agree with you on that front.

 

[TresChikon]

Hah I thought those parries were on purpose, I'm such a newb

 

[RaynEX]

Well to be fair, he probably knew the upBs were coming. But shine-grab traps DK and he can't do anything faster oos.This is the way it works.

(remember that Fox's shine is 1 frame with complete invincibility on that single frame)



Firstly:

It is impossible to shine grab Bowser if they upB out of shield properly. The first 4 frames of Bowser's upB offer him complete body invincibility until frame 5. At this point the move continues on without its invulnerability effects. If you aerial Bowser's shield, he Upbs frame 1, you go through each other because you are both invincible...but then he keeps spinning on frames 2-4 with invincibility and you get hit. It is important to note that Bowser's upb has no "hitbox" to clink with while invincible. It is just pure invulnerability that either outprioritizes moves, or goes through other invincible ones. This is why the shine doesn't clink; it simply goes through and Fox gets hit afterwards. This is what would happen if Fox and Bowser were to start their moves at the same time.

BUT...

the problem with all this frame data, is that it really depends on where you hit your opponent with your aerial.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Fox lands a mid level hit on Bowser's shield, upb beats shine. The time it takes for Fox to fall and lcancel gives Bowser enough time to get his hitbox out. Because he has to jump out of his shield to perform his upb, his jump requires 1 "jump" frame. Fox has virtually no start-up on his shine, and the moves would probably start simultaneously - in which case, my above frame analysis would hold true.

Assuming Fox hit Bowser's shield any higher, Bowser would have frame advantage and upb oos before Fox can protect himself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Fox lands a low nair on Bowser's shield, he is in the air for less time (giving him roughly 4-5 more frames to do something), and so he wins. Either Bowser tries to Upb and gets shined, or sits in his shield and gets grabbed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly:

Dk's upB invincibility and hitbox both begin on frame 3. His invincibility lasts until frame 5 (this gives him 3 full frames of **** mode), then his hitbox continues on without invulnerabililty until his rotations cease on frame 84. When DK upbs out of shield, he also takes 1 frame to jump. He has to jump on frame 1, then cancel that jump into a grounded up B. This means that his move really begins on frame 4.

For example:

-Fox nairs DK's shield mid height (Fox has hitlag and Dk has shield stun for 7 frames)

-Fox falls and lcancels for 12 frames

-DK jumps and initiates his upB; the hitbox comes out on frame 4.

-DK has frame advantage and hits Fox

The only way Fox can avoid this is if he low nairs DKs shield and shines before DK can do anything about it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whats happening in the C0nn0r vs. Mexican match-up is a different story entirely. First off, Mexican isn't doing perfect upbs oos. Second, C0nn0r isn't doing perfectly timed lcancel shines on shield. Because of this, they are starting at the same time and Fox wins.

Unlike Bowsers upb, DK has invincibility everywhere except his arms. He actually has a hitbox out that isn't invincibile. Because C0nn0r is starting his shines slow, his frame 1 meets with Dks frame 4 and both moves clink, cancelling out DK's move completely and leaving him helpless to the grab.

Smart DKs and Bowsers would wait until after the shine hits their shield, instead of going up against such a fast move and risk getting hit. But this again is another story if we look at frame data.

 

[Signia]

I can't see why this wouldn't be a great addition to fox's already insane nitaku. Aren't they going to want to keep shielding in fear of Dair-Shine-risingNair? As soon as I figure out how to organize it I'm going to start a new thread to map out the shinedgames if you will so I can get a better understanding of what beats what starting when fox lands a SHFFL'd aerial on top of you. This should probably be done for every high tier character. Or maybe it's me and stuff like this is just common sense.

It doesn't seem like it is, because it seems decisions made by some players I see in videos don't show evidence of any consideration of risk and reward. Wouldn't you ALWAYS want to choose the option that doesn't get you thrown? Or sent off stage?

Game theory tells us that you should always play pessimistically at Nash Equilibriums, if there are any. Nash Equilibriums are strategies (which are sets of options in this context) in which the enemy player cannot improve their payoffs no matter what they do even if they know what you will do.

An example of this is Shining after landing on the opponent with a late aerial. There's barely any reason not to do it and you don't even have to hit confirm your aerial. A better example would be L-canceling. You risk nothing by doing it, unless you do it wrong (fully depressing the L button) and waste your tech cooldown.

So, back to the topic. Yes, there's so many options out of the shine that you can catch your opponent off guard with the shinegrab or multishine or whatever. But why risk getting grabbed and combo'd to death? If you simply shinedash toward centerstage you eliminate any possibility of getting grabbed or sent off stage while still being able to combo them if the shine hit. The best they get if they predict you is a close reset. It's a Nash Equilibrium. (Or maybe it isn't, I still need to analyze this ****. I mean you can't just keep getting close resets.)

Unless of course I'm a ****ing scrub (which I am) who doesn't understand a god**** thing about this subject, and yes, I am new to these game theory terms myself so I'm really not sure if I know what I'm talking about anyway. If this is the case, please clarify my utter misunderstanding. More coming in my thread.

 

[`DNS`]

I was just messing around before and I think this would be great against ICs.. obviously don't spam it against any char, but you can mindgame a shine approach and jc a grab after; one of the climbers slides away and you have the other with you. uthrow uair? Or throw popo away and kill nana who will be on the other end of the stage by then :D

 

[soap]

i use it more with falco than fox.

i like how with falco if the shine hits and u went for the shine grab, u can still follow up the combo alot of the time.

with fox. depends. nair shine grab is pretty broken though

 

[RaynEX]

I can't see why this wouldn't be a great addition to fox's already insane nitaku. Aren't they going to want to keep shielding in fear of Dair-Shine-risingNair? As soon as I figure out how to organize it I'm going to start a new thread to map out the shinedgames if you will so I can get a better understanding of what beats what starting when fox lands a SHFFL'd aerial on top of you. This should probably be done for every high tier character. Or maybe it's me and stuff like this is just common sense.

It doesn't seem like it is, because it seems decisions made by some players I see in videos don't show evidence of any consideration of risk and reward. Wouldn't you ALWAYS want to choose the option that doesn't get you thrown? Or sent off stage?

Game theory tells us that you should always play pessimistically at Nash Equilibriums, if there are any. Nash Equilibriums are strategies (which are sets of options in this context) in which the enemy player cannot improve their payoffs no matter what they do even if they know what you will do.

An example of this is Shining after landing on the opponent with a late aerial. There's barely any reason not to do it and you don't even have to hit confirm your aerial. A better example would be L-canceling. You risk nothing by doing it, unless you do it wrong (fully depressing the L button) and waste your tech cooldown.

So, back to the topic. Yes, there's so many options out of the shine that you can catch your opponent off guard with the shinegrab or multishine or whatever. But why risk getting grabbed and combo'd to death? If you simply shinedash toward centerstage you eliminate any possibility of getting grabbed or sent off stage while still being able to combo them if the shine hit. The best they get if they predict you is a close reset. It's a Nash Equilibrium. (Or maybe it isn't, I still need to analyze this ****. I mean you can't just keep getting close resets.)

Unless of course I'm a ****ing scrub (which I am) who doesn't understand a god**** thing about this subject, and yes, I am new to these game theory terms myself so I'm really not sure if I know what I'm talking about anyway. If this is the case, please clarify my utter misunderstanding. More coming in my thread.

I have this strange feeling you came from the SF community. You really know your Nash theory; talking about payoffs and risk/reward scenarios . Its rare to hear a new player bringing up those kind of subjects.

I will say this; after having read a few articles on strat profiles and payoff matrixes, I feel that Nash Equilibrium and its collective of formal, micromanaged principles doesn't mesh well with SSBM. Equations to stabilize a simple game, and more equations to justify the equations and why they are valid in a competitive gaming context...its all just too much. Thats my opinion on it anyways. haha


But before we get into strategic interaction between players and whatnot, I need to understand what you're trying to say.

Shinedash towards centerstage? I also think that you're underestimating ssbm players' consideration of r/r scenarios. You need to be playing a long time before you make a nice, fat claim like that. Simplify your post and questions maybe?

I was just messing around before and I think this would be great against ICs.. obviously don't spam it against any char, but you can mindgame a shine approach and jc a grab after; one of the climbers slides away and you have the other with you. uthrow uair? Or throw popo away and kill nana who will be on the other end of the stage by then :D

Good idea, but if you whiff you die vs. IC players. This is, however, assuming that your shine hits their body/shield and your grab misses. (The IC player will then proceed to dsmash/grab or something)

There are barely any more IC users around because of their learning curve; so you can bet that if you run into one in tourny the player will know what they are doing. Last thing you want to do is get experimental and lose. Just get in and get out when it comes to ICs; don't be in their space any longer than you have to.

 

[`DNS`]

There are barely any more IC users around because of their learning curve; so you can bet that if you run into one in tourny the player will know what they are doing. Last thing you want to do is get experimental and lose. Just get in and get out when it comes to ICs; don't be in their space any longer than you have to.

Yeah, I guess you're right there.. if I ever came across an IC player I'd probably lose no matter what I did; I have 0 IC experience

 

[PsychoMidget]

well yeah, I was just spamming it because Mexican was really confused and commented on it during our friendlies. I think it's a nice mix up instead of trying to shield pressure with nair shines or drill shines.


-Connor

 

[Brookman]

well yeah, I was just spamming it because Mexican was really confused and commented on it during our friendlies. I think it's a nice mix up instead of trying to shield pressure with nair shines or drill shines.


-Connor

He's right.

/close the thread.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like the shinegrab for its psychological merit. After someone gets nair shined in their shield several times, they tend to hold their shield at least until the occurrence of the shine. Assuming they don't start buffering rolls after the shine, then, this is the point where you start throwing in shinegrabs.

1. Often they miss the DI on the uthrow.
2. Whenever you get that grab, the novelty of your attack can take them off guard and throw them off for the next couple of seconds psychologically.
3. You risk ... what? Grabbing thin air because your shine hit them?

 

[soap]

3. You risk ... what? Grabbing thin air because your shine hit them?

falco buffers sidestep on your predictable grab

shine ***** your stock

 

[Signia]

Shinedash towards centerstage? I also think that you're underestimating ssbm players' consideration of r/r scenarios. You need to be playing a long time before you make a nice, fat claim like that. Simplify your post and questions maybe?

Yeah I meant it to be more of a "it looks like this strategy is best all the time but I must be wrong because top players don't do this all the time, or I'm right and they aren't considering r/r" (which I should have thought is highly unlikely at the time I wrote the post). If I'm wrong then that means I really don't understand Fox's options, and I'd kinda like to so I can play fox or against fox. That's why I'm here looking to see which defensive options beat fox's various options and find the optimal strategy.

However, I'm not about to solve it using a matrix or something. While it's possible to weigh options by expected damage value, that doesn't factor in positional advantage or psycological factors. I know you can't really theory fight your way to being a top player, especially in a game like this, where situations are so varied. But I think the fox/falco-just-shined-your-shield situation happens often enough that it can be and should be discussed in-depth. In an accidentally competitive game like this it's highly likely that optimal strategies exist, and so many have already been discovered over the 8 or so years.

In fact, the game has been played competitively long enough that top players already understand that scenario just fine, and there's possibly nothing new to find. Mid-level players probably don't, though. The goal here really is to end my own discouragement and other's discouragement when something like this happens:
Fox player dominates Sheik player with shine mixups that are entirely incomprehensible to Sheik player, then ends it with a shine-grab upthrow uair.
Sheik Player: "What am I supposed to do about that?
Fox Player: jokingly "****'s broke isn't hehehe"
Sheik Player: "No really, I knew you going to do that again, I just don't know.. what.. the ****.. to do.. you know?"
Fox Player: "I don't know ... ... don't get hit?"

This really warrants another thread but I'm too busy right now :/

Came from Soul Calibur IV community btw.

 

[Brookman]

I don't know if anyone posted frame data but I'm positive it takes longer for your grab to come out than it takes your opponents. Just wanted to put that out there.

 

[RaynEX]

Yeah I meant it to be more of a "it looks like this strategy is best all the time but I must be wrong because top players don't do this all the time, or I'm right and they aren't considering r/r" (which I should have thought is highly unlikely at the time I wrote the post). If I'm wrong then that means I really don't understand Fox's options, and I'd kinda like to so I can play fox or against fox. That's why I'm here looking to see which defensive options beat fox's various options and find the optimal strategy.

However, I'm not about to solve it using a matrix or something. While it's possible to weigh options by expected damage value, that doesn't factor in positional advantage or psycological factors. I know you can't really theory fight your way to being a top player, especially in a game like this, where situations are so varied. But I think the fox/falco-just-shined-your-shield situation happens often enough that it can be and should be discussed in-depth. In an accidentally competitive game like this it's highly likely that optimal strategies exist, and so many have already been discovered over the 8 or so years.

In fact, the game has been played competitively long enough that top players already understand that scenario just fine, and there's possibly nothing new to find. Mid-level players probably don't, though. The goal here really is to end my own discouragement and other's discouragement when something like this happens:
Fox player dominates Sheik player with shine mixups that are entirely incomprehensible to Sheik player, then ends it with a shine-grab upthrow uair.
Sheik Player: "What am I supposed to do about that?
Fox Player: jokingly "****'s broke isn't hehehe"
Sheik Player: "No really, I knew you going to do that again, I just don't know.. what.. the ****.. to do.. you know?"
Fox Player: "I don't know ... ... don't get hit?"

This really warrants another thread but I'm too busy right now :/

Came from Soul Calibur IV community btw.

This is the most important thing you said.

"I know you can't really theory fight your way to being a top player, especially in a game like this, where situations are so varied. But I think the fox/falco-just-shined-your-shield situation happens often enough that it can be and should be discussed in-depth."

Shine hitting shield is a simple enough scenario to deconstruct. There aren't that many "mix ups" you can do to land a shine. Besides running in blatantly and shining, comboing it off an aerial, or DDing around their shield and throwing it out (this still counts as running in blatantly), there aren't many other ways to land it. If the Sheik keeps getting hit by shines that aren't being comboed into, they need to space better. Shine has no range, and unless they are really close to Fox, trying to hit him with tilts or a grab - the shine shouldn't bug her that much.

If she gets hit by an aerial on her shield, all she has to do is wait for Fox's shine to come out before she attempts anything. Buffering a roll and sidestep with almost every character will give you invincibility before Fox's grab can come out. WDing backwards out of shield to spaced tilts or dsmash is also a viable option if you aren't too close when the Fox hits your shield. Characters with frame 1-4 options out of shield can usually do something about shine grab.

The main problem is that shine in and of itself offers you +5 frame advantage on shield. Fox can't jump frame 1 (when his shine hitbox and invincibility is out), so he has to on frame 2. This means he can do whatever he wants with a true +3 frame headstart. His grab is 7 frames. Sheik has to wait 3 frames, plus another 7 or 8 to get her w/e out. If she tries to jump and aerial, Fox will grab her out of the air. Roll has invulnerability on frame 3 and sidestep on frame 2. If the Fox hits your shield with an aerial at mid height (and all Foxes do), then defensive buffering saves you everytime.

(This is vs. Sheik though. Each character has their own roll/sidestep speed and options oos)

I don't know if anyone posted frame data but I'm positive it takes longer for your grab to come out than it takes your opponents. Just wanted to put that out there.

I made a huge post on frame data near the top of the page.

 

[Brookman]

...

you know i do that **** to you all the time dave

I made a huge post on frame data near the top of the page.

this does not answer the question.

As for the topic, i think the whole discussion is moot since it's based off of someone ****** a clearly bad DK player.

p.s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4KyO00p-xo&NR=1

 

[JPOBS]

did he just call mexican a "clearly bad DK player" ? :ouch:

 

[Brookman]

did he just call mexican a "clearly bad DK player" ? :ouch:

Yes, and I'd like to see proof of the contrary

 

[JPOBS]

Yes, and I'd like to see proof of the contrary

mexican is considered the best DK since the Bum/Captian Jack era

 

[Brookman]

Oh really? That's kinda sad.

 

[JPOBS]

granted its DK but yea, mexican is legit.

 

[Brookman]

this video compliments his style better, but I think it has a lot to do with the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDncftmKj2M&NR=1

 

[JPOBS]

fd compliments any dk's style better lmfao

he beat ss in that set btw (both times on fd). but i like the way he plays on dreamland by jumpin up onto the platforms then using cargo through so they cant tech the platforms to escape.

im going to look up the genesis bracket now and see how he did

edit: 65th overall.
lost to darkrain first round lul

 

[joeplicate]

mexican's legit