Shield stun too low?

[NocriZle]

Is it just me or is melee sorta looking like brawl a little. I feel like it favors defensive play over offensive. Falco and fox could easily play gay and defensive and have an advantage. Most characters don't have an approach in melee because shield stun is not that high. (Don't get me wrong the brawl shield is a joke). I am just saying, 64 is an offensive game in which it rewards the attacker by overwhelming the opponent. If you shield in 64, it is because it is a last resort cuz there is so much shield stun it is hard to grab out of shield. In melee, captain falcon has to wait for his opponent to mess up to start comboing them. If he Nair's into a shield he is toast. (That's nothing compared to Brawls terrible shield but still a downer)

I still love melee and think it has great gameplay mechanics but this is the one thing I kinda don't like about it. It favors defense too much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel the relatively low amount of shield stun is offset by the inability to break grabs.

 

[JKJ]

Melee definitely favors defensive play. Read Hax's great essay :
http://www.smashboards.com/archive/index.php?t-312501.html

 

[NocriZle]

dude that was all true

 

[Kimimaru]

I'd rather it be this way because it makes more sense to me. If the opponent gets shield grabbed, it's his/her fault because you countered the approach option by shielding. In SSB64 there are so few defensive options compared to offensive options, and because of that you get punished 99% of the time for trying to defend an attack, which is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[rjgbadger]

in 64 if you can't figure out how/when to usmash/jump/grab out of stun you probably suck, or your opponent is really good at shieldstun-locking you.

 

[Kimimaru]

64 has far fewer options designed specifically for defense. Melee has spot dodging, smash DI, air dodging, wall/ceiling teching, powershielding, and more. The worse DI in 64 combined with the higher hitstun makes it incredibly easy to pull off combos, thus favoring offense. Also, almost every character can pull off (*insert aerial here* on shield) -> grab, which makes it easy to punish shielding. There's also no real counter to grabs (which have very little lag compared to Melee) or Fox's lasers.

 

[rjgbadger]

i wouldn't say its incredibly easy to pull off combos, especially intuitive ones, but i do understand the point you are making. also you CAN weave around fox lasers in 64 its definitely not uncounterable. simply getting on the top plat of hyrule and double jumping makes you impervious to lasers, as fox cannot reach you from the tent there.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14894909&postcount=74041
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14894990&postcount=74046
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14895019&postcount=74050

 

[Kimimaru]

i wouldn't say its incredibly easy to pull off combos, especially intuitive ones, but i do understand the point you are making. also you CAN weave around fox lasers in 64 its definitely not uncounterable. simply getting on the top plat of hyrule and double jumping makes you impervious to lasers, as fox cannot reach you from the tent there.

You can do that, but if you're on Dreamland you're out of luck. You have to spend time avoiding the lasers and putting yourself in an unfavorable position while he can just shoot them and approach you.

 

[Bones0]

This game is way too complex to be viewed as solely offense vs. defense. Players who rush the whole game are going to do just as bad as people who camp all game. When you watch top players, they're constantly pushing and pulling through each other's space. Most people look at this movement and think it's defensive, but it's also offensive because at any given time, if the spacing suits the player, they will go in for an attack. So yeah, if you view DDWDing as defensive, this game is a campfest. But that's just because you're not seeing the constant manipulation of threats and bluffs and good defensive/offensive calls that are happening every second.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Lol, in 64 you just dont shield. Where do you think "dont get hit" came from? Anyone who is good in 64 will pressure, make idiots shield, and abuse the hell out of it. This is of course offset by 64 being a bit of a slower game than melee. The current sheild stun works because of what was already mentioned, its a different punish game. Comparing 64's shield work and melee's is really a dumb comparison, because its 2 vastly different games when it comes to defense/offense.

When I played 64 for like...the 6-7 years that I did, I was an extremely aggro fox. More aggro than I was smart, but it WORKED. I got by competing and beating some of the best players because of the pressure game, matchup knowledge, and stage knowledge that I had and hell, despite being retired from it STILL have. You cant do this in Melee, you're either smart to compliment your technical side or you eat ****. Not to say you can just go full nova ****** 24/7 in 64 and win thats inaccurate, but im just saying its a illogical comparison.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's probably too little in general, but making it much more would make Peach/Fox/Falco retardedly OP by comparison. That and it's not too hard to space safely around a shield as most characters with its current setting.

 

[Mahie]

That being said, 64 is quite the defensive game as well. Much more so than Melee, I would say.

 

[Beat!]

64 is an offensive game

I've literally never seen anyone say this before. On the other hand, I've seen lots of people claim the opposite.


And people need to stop hating on defensive play.

 

[Armada]

I would say 64 is more deffensive then melee too
And yeah people hate on deffensive way to much

 

[rawrimamonster]

I've literally never seen anyone say this before. On the other hand, I've seen lots of people claim the opposite.


And people need to stop hating on defensive play.

Depends on the person you're playing more than the character as far as I've seen. Even characters like samus and luigi who have slow horizontal movement have decent options and can mount a good offense. As far as hating on defensive play...planky=\=defensive. I think a differentiation needs to be made there despite how difficulty it could be with differing opinions.

defensive being, waiting and baiting out mistakes then going on offensive to keep the pressure going and create more mistakes

planky being, abusing a characters ability to stay out of range indefinitely until someone makes a huge mistake to punish, hit a few times then go back to air camping/platform running usually in a diagonal direction above the ledge, near or on top of the ledge. Usually what everyone calls "playing gay" when in respects to being campy.

 

[S l o X]

naturally because offense is far more fun to watch than a campfest.

also it's harder.

 

[Stevo]

This game is way too complex to be viewed as solely offense vs. defense. Players who rush the whole game are going to do just as bad as people who camp all game. When you watch top players, they're constantly pushing and pulling through each other's space. Most people look at this movement and think it's defensive, but it's also offensive because at any given time, if the spacing suits the player, they will go in for an attack. So yeah, if you view DDWDing as defensive, this game is a campfest. But that's just because you're not seeing the constant manipulation of threats and bluffs and good defensive/offensive calls that are happening every second.

^ this

 

[The Star King]

Every single Smash game is *****ed about being too defensive

Also lol @ the people who don't play 64 saying it's offensive, classic Melee discussion. Like talking about Mewtwo vs Zelda, or other things you don't actually have experience in.

 

[EPsilon933]

Play Peach. You can not get punished for approaching (slowly)

 

[rawrimamonster]

Every single Smash game is *****ed about being too defensive

Also lol @ the people who don't play 64 saying it's offensive, classic Melee discussion. Like talking about Mewtwo vs Zelda, or other things you don't actually have experience in.

before brawl, 64 players were a lot more aggressive, it wasn't until that ****fest game showed that easymode was a quick way out in winning and that planking worked that players became more defensive. I think it was around the time you and a couple other regs started playing that the style shifted, not blaming you at all just saying. There was always campy samus bair/dair spammers, gay **** tent camping kirby players and jiggly platform campers but it was centralized to those specific styles, it wasn't until after brawl that players started to integrate more plankyness into their styles. **** man brawl cant do any ****ing thing right.

 

[Massive]

You can't blame brawl for 64's playstyle.

Punishes are so effective in 64 that you can't afford to get hit at all. Stationary methods of defense (shielding, rolling) are easily punishable, so people don't do that. What happens then? You run away and poke at your opponent until you can start some ridiculous combo to kill them.

If you play melee this way you will look like a campy mother******, in 64 that's just the reality of the game.

This all started when people got serious about 64, it has very little do with brawl. Brawl feels slow and defensive because it was built on character longevity (for the people that melee was "too fast" for) and goes out of its way to enforce rubber-band mechanics (recover from everything!®).

 

[KirbyKaze]

I like how people think defense literally did not exist in Melee and 64 prior to Brawl's release. As if every single player in the universe just rambo'd one another in a glorious bloodbath.

 

[TheManaLord]

every fighting game is heavy on defense

even real fighting is heavily based on defense

 

[rawrimamonster]

Like i said, defensive play did and does exist in 64. Thats a given as you said the nature of the game is such because of the amount of hitstun and shieldstun. But to simply state that brawl wasn't a factor at all in the shift in playstyle? Thats outright wrong. Heck I can give a great example in this case. boomfan was one of the ones that started bringing in planking since he started on brawl back then, i was playing with him when he first started his dreamland mario edgecamp and samus ledge planking.

Furthermore, him being one of the top players that he is definitely has a effect on the community as it filters down to people who want to challenge him..and he is constantly playing people and beggin for p2p, or at least was when I knew him. One thing you cannot forget is that 64 is a tiny and centralized community, shifts can happen easily since the metagame rarely moves unless a game changing new style comes along that guarantees wins. Since the effort to camp and win is proportionally less than playing aggresive to win people adapted to the change quicker. I was on kaillera nearly every day for years until I quit, I think I would notice.

 

[NocriZle]

64 is defensive? watch this video of Isai as captain falcon. He is rewarded every time he was aggressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UokDVGLC48s

 

[Twinkles]

64 is defensive? watch this video of Isai as captain falcon. He is rewarded every time he was aggressive.

watch this video of Isai

Isai

If you're 100x better than your opponent and know many more ways to poke hole in defense than they can defend against, why the **** would you not approach.

 

[Mahie]

How about Isai against someone a bit better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pZOfUNe8w

 

[Bones0]

Why do 64 players call Pikachu "Rat"? >_>

 

[Han Solo]

Because Pikachu is a mouse and rats are like mice. Also, Pikachu is basically the Metaknight of 64. Calling him "rat" gives him a negative connotation.

 

[NocriZle]

How about Isai against someone a bit better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pZOfUNe8w

I saw that video and while it was a bit campy, I did see some moments while Isai just attacked and was rewarded by it. Also Isai destroyed him and Gerson was super defensive and that did not help him beat Isai.

 

[Lovage]

64 is by far the gayest smash game hands down


good game. no stages and no clock. also lots of ppl play like ******s so you can't even rely on that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The OP can't even tell the difference between shield pressuring and approaching. I think we can conclude that he probably doesn't know much about this game (or the other smash games) in general and we can either decide to let this thread die or correct him.

I'm impartial at the moment.

 

[Bones0]

ur mom's impartial

 

[Mahie]

I saw that video and while it was a bit campy, I did see some moments while Isai just attacked and was rewarded by it. Also Isai destroyed him and Gerson was super defensive and that did not help him beat Isai.

What?
> Isai gets 3-4 stocked
> Isai destroyed Gerson.

And yeah obviously even in defensive play there are moments where you throw attacks out because otherwise nothing happens. But overall it's a lot of sake pokes until you get the positional advantage because one mistake is way too costly.

 

[The Star King]

Isai uses "Rat" in his video names because he got some copyright claim from some random company (you know the usual Youtube bull****) on "Pikachu". It's not "64 players".

lol @ Han Solo

I might respond to rawr later, I only skimmed his posts (and I saw something about planking in Smash 64 and I was like "wat")

Mahie, you know Isai won a majority of games against Gerson right? Even in what Gerson specializes in (Pika dittos on Hyrule). Why is Gerson "a bit better"?

 

[Bones0]

Isai uses "Rat" in his video names because he got some copyright claim from some random company (you know the usual Youtube bull****) on "Pikachu". It's just him.

WTF? O_o

 

[Twinkles]

Isai uses "Rat" in his video names because he got some copyright claim from some random company (you know the usual Youtube bull****) on "Pikachu". It's not "64 players".

lol @ Han Solo

I might respond to rawr later, I only skimmed his posts (and I saw something about planking in Smash 64 and I was like "wat")

Mahie, you know Isai won a majority of games against Gerson right? Even in what Gerson specializes in (Pika dittos on Hyrule). Why is Gerson "a bit better"?

I think he just means that Gerson is better than Park lol

 

[Mahie]

I think he just means that Gerson is better than Park lol

Yeah that's what I meant, of course.