Sheik's moveset

[HRR2b23]

Sheik's D-air did become her quickest option for returning the ground in Brawl, but it also meant sacrificing the great combo/setup potential it had in Melee. For a character whose strategy completely revolves around comboing opponents to wrack up substantial damage, removing any of her options to continue combos - much less her only reliable aerial option - is detrimental to her play. Not only that, but the only benefits she gains from this are negligible. Sheik has (or at least had; I'm not sure how she compared in Brawl) one of the best fast-falling speeds in the game, which alone was enough to ensure her safer return to the ground than most characters (so long as she used aerials, air-dodges, or wavelands effectively). Now she has a stall-then-fall that takes her to the ground faster, but it gives opponents with a lot of time to reach wherever she will (very predictably) land, both during the animation in the air and the landing lag. Brawl D-air also locks her into its defenseless animation, removing any options to protect herself with other aerials, airdodges, or throwing your opponent off with varying (fast-) falling speeds.

Nintendo's means of "balancing" Sheik (Sakurai alone balanced the Melee cast, but each character in Brawl and SSB4 are is balanced by a whole team. It's debatably more/less effective than one person doing it, but the point is that Sakurai isn't solely responsible for any given character's buffs/nerfs anymore) have been to strengthen her weak moves and weaken her strong moves, which essentially strips Sheik of the only things she was good for - comboing easily and get early kills. Weak moves that were good for comboing (e.g. D-air) now hit opponents further away even at low %s, ending combos earlier and before any decent damage is done. Strong moves that were good for early kills (e.g. F-air) now barely send opponents anywhere at high %s. For those that retain their strong/weak knockback, different aspects of them are made less efficient or reliable (U-air). Even her needles are worse if they retained their Brawl input method, which requires more button inputs for what already needed quick inputs and timing to be used at their full potential (gimps, stun for starting/continuing combos). It's as if Sheik's moveset, which was initially exciting with a high contrast of blacks and whites, has slowly been shaded into a dull and boring gray mess.

/rant

Sorz for the pessimism; I want to play Sheik as much as the next person here, but just judging from the few videos we have of SSB4 Sheik, I'm pretty worried about Sheik's viability already. And unfortunately, I'm no longer convinced that a grenade on a string and a janky, unreliable kill move are enough to save her.



This has always been the case. All of her aerials consistently have short landing lag, with the exception of her D-air (both versions of which have long landing lag). Sheik has also been capable of Needle-Cancelling since the start, which is when she throws needles before she reaches the apex of her jump (anytime she's in the air and rising) and receives no significant landing lag if landing midway through the needle throwing animation. The only way this could be an improvement is if she reaches the apex of her jump (anytime she's in the air and falling) and then throws her needles and lands during the animation with minimal landing lag.

As far as the needle inputs go, if I recall correctly they work like in PM, where you can sidestep out but releasing B throws the needles. Also, I know they've always been like that, I was just saying those things have remained.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm from one am not too worried about Sheik viability and for a few reasons.

Ftilt looks unchanged. This is a great thing due to decay is already being speculated(not confirmed yet) to be returning and now with character being less floaty it only mean's greatness. Also SDI has been confirmed to be removed which is also nice...for us...overall I will greatly miss it.

Bouncing fish, it doesn't need to be able to kill or even do much damage as it give Sheik what she absolutely lacked, horizontal air mobility. It's true sheik could reach the ground quickly by fast falling (no one used Dair) but if her opponent was directly below her she struggle greatly, this new option will help her avoid getting juggled so badly. The fact it will help her recover is just icing on the cake.

Needles are looking unchanged so we can still abuse them and abuse them we shall.

Dash attack is looking like it got a buffed. In melee sheik dash attack was very solid but in brawl it was nerfed to the ground become nothing more then a interrupting move/mix up with no follow up. Just from the limited videos I've seen and with the help of smoke trails I believe it's been buffed. Having this option back would be huge for Sheik aggressive defense play style.

Air dodging into the ground has been nerf. Due to Sheik short cool down aerials and tilts she was capable of forcing air dodges. Because reports of air dodging into the ground has become more punishable this in effect has greatly improve Sheik follow up potential.

Last but not least it's looking people are still unable to kill in the early percents like in Melee. This give me hope that this slightly improved Brawl Sheik will be able to be placed higher on the tier list. High tier? As of right now no way in hell. We don't know enough about her yet.

What we should be looking into is her grab game, dash attack, Ftilt, tilts in general and her kill moves for brawl which were usmash, strong nair, up B, bair(kinda). Approach smash4 sheik as if she is still in Brawl not Melee and then we will have a better idea where she might be on the tier list.

 

[RT]

*My post from another thread*

I also played the 3DS version and tested Sheik.

-Dthrow seems almost the same, maybe more hitstun to promote combos. Almost certainly no chaingrab.

-Distance of Burst Grenade can go pretty far and the wind hitbox which brings people towards the nade is pretty big.

-Ftilt almost seems unchanged, you can probably still ftilt lock some characters. Would need more testing for sure.

-Fair seems the same.

-Dair has the same stall then fall property. Did not test thoroughly.

-Fmash seems to set up more into combos if you hit with the second part.

-Dsmash seems to be the same.

-Needles seem unchanged, still auto-store after you max out.

That's all I remember/tested. The local wireless play was pretty terrible/laggy, almost Brawl status...but probably because it is beta/lot of 3DS units present.

 

[Maikou]

How about this; F*** THE TIERS, AS LONG AS THEY ARE FUN TO PLAY AS. I'm SICK of the stupid Tier list being brought up here! I don't know about the rest of you, but being the only Casual player left in existence has got to be the MOST annoying thing EVER, and I'm never going up to Competitive because that's just not me.

I don't CARE about the specifics, if I like a character and find them fun, I play as them. Regardless of Tiers. I don't care if Pichu sucks in everyone's eyes, I'll love and play with the little guy. if he was real, I'd protect him from the abusers. I like Bottom-Tier Yoshi and Bottom-Tier Kirby, I'm not going to change that because of Tier lists telling me what to do.

Worry about your Brawl stats if you want, but regardless of how it plays, I'm buying Smash Bros 4 3DS and I'm going to LOVE IT, even with Pac-Man in and even if certain other characters aren't/are in. Heck, put it out right now and I'd love it just fine.

This is why I'm fine with For Glory mode, but will never play it. Plus Pikachu and Kirby are on For Fun mode and they are cute so there's that to.

 

[Tristan_win]

...Like I'm 25 now, in Japan and loaded with responsibilities. I know there very little chance I could become something great...But even so I would prefer Sheik to be one of the best characters then one of the worst due to I would be able to win more often.

Better character = Easier time winning = more fun.

When the game does come out I'm going to go full scientist on it and extract as much data I can, abuse that data and help others to do the same. That's how I'm going to enjoy this smash. I guess that makes me a hardcore casual? ..... hmm, new title.

 

[ECHOnce]

As far as the needle inputs go, if I recall correctly they work like in PM, where you can sidestep out but releasing B throws the needles. Also, I know they've always been like that, I was just saying those things have remained.

Needle throw on release is back?! -tears of joy- Oh, and sorry about that. I seem to be prone to misunderstanding what people are trying to say online pretty frequently, my b.

How about this; F*** THE TIERS, AS LONG AS THEY ARE FUN TO PLAY AS. I'm SICK of the stupid Tier list being brought up here! I don't know about the rest of you, but being the only Casual player left in existence has got to be the MOST annoying thing EVER, and I'm never going up to Competitive because that's just not me.

I don't CARE about the specifics, if I like a character and find them fun, I play as them. Regardless of Tiers. I don't care if Pichu sucks in everyone's eyes, I'll love and play with the little guy. if he was real, I'd protect him from the abusers. I like Bottom-Tier Yoshi and Bottom-Tier Kirby, I'm not going to change that because of Tier lists telling me what to do.

Worry about your Brawl stats if you want, but regardless of how it plays, I'm buying Smash Bros 4 3DS and I'm going to LOVE IT, even with Pac-Man in and even if certain other characters aren't/are in. Heck, put it out right now and I'd love it just fine.

This is why I'm fine with For Glory mode, but will never play it. Plus Pikachu and Kirby are on For Fun mode and they are cute so there's that to.

Chill, dude. Nobody is forcing you to be a competitive player, or to pay much attention to discussion of Tier lists. Deciding to read into such deeply and/or participate is completely your own decision. But you should understand that SmashBoards is a site made to support the competitive scene, and as such, competitively-minded players - along with discussions of their ideas and interests - will likely always be the majority here. By coming onto SmashBoards, you should realize that when you're coming to our home - one of the web's few homes for competitive smash players - you need to respect our interests and opinions, and keep any offensive thoughts of your own in your head: the entire site isn't going to change just because you don't like the way we think. And If you really can't stand for this type of talk, shouting about how you hate the way all of us feel about Smash isn't going to solve much. Understand that we love the same game just as much as you do, and that we only differ because we have different ways of looking at it. There's absolutely no need to express such anger towards all of us simply for not sharing the same opinion as you, and if you really feel the need to do so, I'd kindly suggest that you stop subjecting yourself to discussions like these further by continuing to participate in them; letting such negative feelings build up isn't healthy for you, and no one wants you to have to experience that. That's not to say that any of us want you to leave - after all, more people means more (and possibly better) ideas, especially when there are varying perspectives - but if you choose to stay, I'm sure we would all appreciate if you consider how offensive and uncalled for everything you just said was to us and change your attitude before you think about saying anything more.

 

[Tristan_win]

OMFG! On the nintendo treehouse the guy just said that Sheik bouncing fish has a spike! Did they really give Sheik a spike!?

edit: This is unrelated to what I posted above but it's a really good read. He says nothing but amazing things about Sheik in smash4

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-analysis-from-a-guy-who-loves-camping.358097/

 

[ECHOnce]

That would be crazy sick. I haven't seen many Sheik vids yet, so if what you're saying is true, judging from the Nintendo Direct clip featuring bouncing fish, it would seem that opponents get launched in the direction Sheik's feet are pointing upon making contact. Not only could that lead to recoveries, spikes, and side-stage kills, but if you're able to activate the kick/attack out of it early enough, couldn't it lead to ceiling kills too? I imagine that, if she can activate it that early, it would be a good combo ender for D-tilt/F-tilts at high %s.

Btw thanks for sharing that thread, it had some pretty interesting + useful stuff to know.

- - -​

EDIT: Although...using for spikes could also require some ridiculous setups/reads, or a really stupid opponent - if it does send people in the direction Sheik's feet/legs/body/whatever is pointing, then the spike or diagonally downwards hit would be towards the end of the animation, which takes a while for Sheik to go through...unless you use it as a stage spike? Now that I just reviewed the article you sent again, I considered the scenario where Sheik is recovering and an edge-guarder opponent is trying to steal the ledge after you. You could go low to bait them a bit further down, and then use Bouncing Fish into the kick to stage spike them. I believe she flips forwards, right? That'd also mean she has another option from the ledge - with the kind of power it packs, "ledge drop --> Bouncing Fish --> Kick out of Bouncing fish would be such a nearly horizontally --> landing on stage" could bare resemblance to Melee F-air from ledge, except with even further reach and being safer.

 

[B!ggad]

Okay so some people vaguely claim that Sheik has no lag when using needles from the air.

Can I needle > grab/mixup now or not.

 

[Tristan_win]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp6KkHoQG6I
@1:30
Sheik vanish looks to have a real hit box once she reappears. We might not be able to see the damage but villager is clearly set on fire. This is a great change as the wind hit box in Brawl wasn't exactly the best thing ever...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbUXSUIkv-c
@0:23
Sheik is clearly able to move before marth after hitting him with a dash attack. I still see a lot of promise here
@1:56
I would just like to point out Sheik did almost 2 ftilts before Villager was able to move again. That's like a solid second of advantage, **** be broken. Sheik Ftilt is confirmed to be buffed, why did they buff Sheik best option?

 

[-dMT-]

Oh, didn't think to check for character specific forums.. derp. I posted this in an impressions thread, but seeing as it is entirely Sheik related I'll put it here as well:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went in to the Nintendo World Store to play today. I haven't seen too much Sheik info out yet, so after trying her out on the 3DS I thought I'd share some things, because I really liked what I saw.

First off - the 3DS demo was a single player experience where I got 5 minutes to go through Smash Run (essentially running around killing monsters and gaining buffs) and at the end of it I was put up against 3 other CPUs. This was the only way to demo the 3DS version, and Sheik is only available in the 3DS version.

Naturally, the whole premise of the demo to me was "I have 5 minutes to mess around with Sheik without 3 other players probably trying to kill me on a small platform." So I tested a few things in isolated sectors before receiving any movement buffs, and then went on to test attacks on enemies.

Let me first say, it's hard to get a grasp on how strong her attacks are when hitting monsters and not smash characters. They behave differently. The only real opportunity I had to test Sheik's power was during the FFA at the end, and in this case all CPUs and myself had various degrees of power, defense, speed, jump, etc buffs. I can say she felt much stronger than Brawl, but it doesn't mean much when buffs are involved.

So let's get to the juicy stuff. Her mobility is fantastic. Overall, save for the lack of dash-dancing and wavedashing, Sheik feels much closer to her Melee self than her Brawl self. All of my aerials short hopped landed with virtually no lag, save for dair. Dair still has that straight-down effect as it did in Brawl but has a much shorter start-up animation and also falls significantly faster than in Brawl. Furthermore, the landing lag of dair, even when initiated rather close to the stage, is shorter.

Her side-B is completely out of player control as far as I could tell. I tried aiming it, I tried holding B to time explosions. I tried anything I could think of. It simply flies in it's set path, lands, then flies up and blows up. When I did it in the air, it would blow up after a set amount of time in the air if it didn't land soon enough. The range on the explosion seems more than reasonable, and more than what one would expect.

Her down-B is essentially ZSS' down-B, but it always has a hitbox at the end. You don't input any attack button. It's direction can be controlled right/left regardless of where Sheik is facing or moving, but the path seems more or less set. The hitbox is further different from ZSS in that if it connects with a target, shield or not, it will bounce off after delivering the hit - essentially making it relatively safe on shield as a first impression. It also has decent knockback. I think it was mentioned before, but the down-B will grab the ledge if being used to recover.

Her up-B seemed more or less the same as Brawl. I wasn't able to test the strength of the explosion.

Needles can be stored by shielding, like usual. They function like they did in Brawl, where you tap to begin charging and tap again to fire. Needle Canceling is back! Landing while shooting needles resulted in no noticeable lag, both isolated and when hitting a target. I was able to land whilst shooting needles and go right into a grab.


In general, her ftilt is still amazing, her smashes are the same, and she functions as one would expect. As with the rest of the cast, her fall speed is significantly faster. Her animations for the fair, nair, bair, uair all seemed polished with more details although they are functionally the same.

Hope that helps. I have to say though, the 3DS version definitely feels more polished than the WiiU version in terms of character movement, attack/special landing lag, expected knockback. I had no trouble comboing the CPUs from dthrow to a cocktail of ftilts and aerials (this WITH the buffs). Considering the 3DS version is the more complete product (and feels like it) I think it's safe to say we have a solid Smash game ahead of us.

 

[Maikou]

So we can finally get the message through that the 3DS in not in fact inferior to the Wii U, or will hold it back in any way, shape, or form? Seriously, the "3DS is inferior" thing going on is probably the most annoying and pointless thing people have complained about with Smash 4 by now.

 

[-dMT-]

It's not a matter of inferiority. We already knew that the game itself was going to be identical on both platforms in terms of mechanics and build. Just some stage differences, etc. It runs in flawless 60 fps on the 3DS, and graphically it's very, very good.

My primary point was that, people are going around confirming things like lack of SDI, high landing lag on air dodges and aerial specials, etc, whereas they easily forget this is an early build of the game - 6 months early. There is no way the game isn't bug ridden in at least a handful of systems. What do developers do when they need to have a playable demo when the game isn't ready yet? They cut out the systems of the game that are buggy, and present the fully working bits. This can be entire characters, Like Lucario, or entire gameplay mechanic checks like SDI or landing cooldown checks.

The builds on the 3DS and WiiU expectedly felt different. Not too much, but for someone who is looking there is plenty to notice. The 3DS version will launch in early October, whereas the WiiU version likely not until like 2 days before 2015. As one can expect, the 3DS version is further along the development pipeline.

 

[Tristan_win]

It's good to see you dmt and have your insight. I'm now official very excited for Sheik and for the next smash.

Sheik gimping game is looking to be going from scary good to pure awesome between needles no longer having landing lag which if you ask me is too good, a fast horizontal moving attack that may or may not spike/semi spike, a projectile that can displace people and then there's always going balls deep down after them. I just wish we had more options against people who recover high.... Bouncing fish may help as we could full hop off stage, bounce toward them and then jump again or wait a bit then bounce toward their position if they just go over us.

I kind of wish I ask this earlier but does anyone know if Sheik new side B hit box is long lasting? It would be nice if it could become a sort of wall against recovering opponents.

Oh so writing bouncing fish is lame and it's name isn't the best. Can we just agree to call it BF for short? After all it's going to be our new best friend.

 

[-dMT-]

It's good to see you dmt and have your insight. I'm now official very excited for Sheik and for the next smash.

Sheik gimping game is looking to be going from scary good to pure awesome between needles no longer having landing lag which if you ask me is too good, a fast horizontal moving attack that may or may not spike/semi spike, a projectile that can displace people and then there's always going balls deep down after them. I just wish we had more options against people who recover high.... Bouncing fish may help as we could full hop off stage, bounce toward them and then jump again or wait a bit then bounce toward their position if they just go over us.

I kind of wish I ask this earlier but does anyone know if Sheik new side B hit box is long lasting? It would be nice if it could become a sort of wall against recovering opponents.

Oh so writing bouncing fish is lame and it's name isn't the best. Can we just agree to call it BF for short? After all it's going to be our new best friend.

Hey Tristan - been a while . Honestly, after my long hiatus I'm surprised to be remembered at all.

The side-B has an instance or 2 where it is very explicitly visible in the videos linked a few posts above us. It basically functions exactly the same each time since we have essentially no control over it. The area of effect is quite substantial, and it does seem to stay out about a second long before the explosion.

One thing I forgot to mention - doing the down-B on the ground still has Sheik lunge forward the same distance, but it is so very close to the ground. Feels almost like she went in a straight line. After connecting, she bounces right back. Seems like a solid option for safe mixups, coupled with needle cancels.

I'm super excited for Sheik in Smash4.

 

[B!ggad]

Landing while shooting needles resulted in no noticeable lag, both isolated and when hitting a target. I was able to land whilst shooting needles and go right into a grab.

I didn't even read anything yet, just skimmed through this post to find this exact information. I have no words (:

 

[Tristan_win]

Hey Tristan - been a while . Honestly, after my long hiatus I'm surprised to be remembered at all.

The side-B has an instance or 2 where it is very explicitly visible in the videos linked a few posts above us. It basically functions exactly the same each time since we have essentially no control over it. The area of effect is quite substantial, and it does seem to stay out about a second long before the explosion.

One thing I forgot to mention - doing the down-B on the ground still has Sheik lunge forward the same distance, but it is so very close to the ground. Feels almost like she went in a straight line. After connecting, she bounces right back. Seems like a solid option for safe mixups, coupled with needle cancels.

I'm super excited for Sheik in Smash4.

Your name is easy to remember and your avatar hasn't changed >.< . No but I tend to remember most people who post a few times in the sheik forum especially people who are intelligent. Anyways I've also been in a on/off hiatus for like forever now until Sheik was confirmed and since then I've been coming to smashboards multiple times everyday.

It's really disappointing we have no control. I guess after programing the elaborate chain with it's own unique physics a few times they didn't want to put in the extra effort ~shrugs~ I can't blame them. I really do hope we can use it as a wall. The move has a lot of potential as a offensive tool against shields and zoning but being able to throw it out in front of those annoying to punish recoveries like falco side B would be very nice.

Hmmm, there's some clear positive and negatives to this. By going in a straight line that means the attack will reach the opponent quicker which means doing this out of a Ftilt or dtilt and maybe even utilt might be really possible and also epic. The move as quick as it is also has a active hit box so we could use it to punish landings when someone tries to air dodge into the ground....Hmm, we might also be able to string it in after a completed jab combo. I imagine in the very low percents the finishing blow doesn't send people that far, we might not be able to combo into it but because it's so safe we might once in a while still catch someone. On the negative side it also means though that we wont be able to use this like zero suits down B or little mack side B which would of really helped our rush in game. Although with that said maybe just doing a short hop into BF would still allow it to still work like this for us. I find it very interesting though that it will bounce off shields not only does this make it that much harder to punish but it also means we have a nice disengage option. Depending on how good needle storm is doing something like BF onto their shield into needle storm could be a very safe and rewarding option. (I just reread your post and notice you mention that. I'm going to leave it because we came to the same conclusion.)

Question were you able to jump again before landing once you did hit your opponent or his shield? If you could that means we could also up B which could be a sort of part 2 to our disengage options/mindgames to counter punishment.

 

[Maikou]

Thing is, I've seen way too many people complaining about the 3DS holding back the Wii U. Most people refer the 3DS version as "inferior" or as "just a demo".
While I'm typing this, I'd like to just request that some of you at least try to consider that not every last one of you on here is a Competitive player. I'll do my best to respect everyone's opinions, but I can't say I won't be frustrated with certain things, because no matter how much I have to respect, that doesn't keep me from feeling a natural emotion. I won't explode about it like before, but I will still be noticibly showing negative emotions.
I apoligize for my earlier outburst, but I have dealt with Tiers a little to much and I tend to take things personally when a character I like, such as Yoshi, is automatically assumed to be a bad character just because the Tiers say so. With me, Tiers feel like they're trying to tell me who I should and shouldn't play as, which I don't really think anyone likes, really. I play Pichu in Melee and can actually do pretty well against my older brother with him. in our most recent matches, Pichu vs Young Link, I've managed to put up a pretty good and fun fight with the little mouse, recently even getting him down to 5 out of 10 stocks. When I hear about Melee's tiers and have people constantly telling me that Pichu sucks and can't win without items, I can't stand it; it feels like they worship the blasted things. I love the little mouse because he fits my play style: I like speed and mobility, and having a ranged attack or two as well helps greatly. Pichu fits this category: I don't care if my character can be smashed into oblivion in just a few strikes when I know how to dodge, and use my speed to counter that. plus, What does it matter if I win when I just have fun in the match?
I certainly can't beat Hard Mode on Adventure Mode/Classic Mode in Melee, even with Pichu and Pikachu, (my mains in Melee; and yes I play both the Clones and the Originals) but I certainly have fun playing on Normal Mode and such.
I know competitive matches are definitely more exciting, but I can't play on that level. I prefer a slightly slower pace anyway; too much speed and I can't keep up.
If we can all forgive and forget, I'll be better in the future.
Just a note, I do have certain characters I prefer playing over others, hence my usage of the word "main".
If I ever become a competitive Smash player, I'll probably understand better why you people are the way you are, but I'm a casual right now. However, I do enjoy discussing things with people online, especially about Smash.
And blame Pokemon and Power Rangers if I'm asking the impossible right now with forgiveness and all that.

 

[-dMT-]

Your name is easy to remember and your avatar hasn't changed >.< . No but I tend to remember most people who post a few times in the sheik forum especially people who are intelligent. Anyways I've also been in a on/off hiatus for like forever now until Sheik was confirmed and since then I've been coming to smashboards multiple times everyday.

It's really disappointing we have no control. I guess after programing the elaborate chain with it's own unique physics a few times they didn't want to put in the extra effort ~shrugs~ I can't blame them. I really do hope we can use it as a wall. The move has a lot of potential as a offensive tool against shields and zoning but being able to throw it out in front of those annoying to punish recoveries like falco side B would be very nice.

Hmmm, there's some clear positive and negatives to this. By going in a straight line that means the attack will reach the opponent quicker which means doing this out of a Ftilt or dtilt and maybe even utilt might be really possible and also epic. The move as quick as it is also has a active hit box so we could use it to punish landings when someone tries to air dodge into the ground....Hmm, we might also be able to string it in after a completed jab combo. I imagine in the very low percents the finishing blow doesn't send people that far, we might not be able to combo into it but because it's so safe we might once in a while still catch someone. On the negative side it also means though that we wont be able to use this like zero suits down B or little mack side B which would of really helped our rush in game. Although with that said maybe just doing a short hop into BF would still allow it to still work like this for us. I find it very interesting though that it will bounce off shields not only does this make it that much harder to punish but it also means we have a nice disengage option. Depending on how good needle storm is doing something like BF onto their shield into needle storm could be a very safe and rewarding option. (I just reread your post and notice you mention that. I'm going to leave it because we came to the same conclusion.)

Question were you able to jump again before landing once you did hit your opponent or his shield? If you could that means we could also up B which could be a sort of part 2 to our disengage options/mindgames to counter punishment.

Unfortunately, I didn't get many trials in with BF follow ups. I distinctly remember it sending me back the direction I bounced from, but not nearly as far as the BF itself. In hindsight, I was also wondering if I regained control early enough that I could perhaps DJ before landing and continue with shield pressure / combo. It's now on my list of things to check if I have another opportunity.

I'll be heading to Best Buy on Saturday to try it out again - so it all depends on the setups. Unfortunate that Sheik is 3DS only for the demos.

Feel free to post any specifics you would like me to check.

 

[thesage]

I also played at the nintendo world store and will go again in a few hours to try out shiek again. Her movements felt pretty similar to melee, but I felt that her up-b distance got buffed.

Her up-b reappear hitbox definitely has a damage component now. I was using it to ko cpus haha. Might be her strongest ko move now (at least with the smash run buffs).

Walljumping is way easier. I kept doing it by accident a bunch of times. I'm mainly a melee player, so I'm unsure how different it was from brawl's input. I noticed that jumping inbetween two walls (like in fourside) does stale the walljump. I tried wall riding (where you just stand on the wall or w/e) but I couldn't do it. I'm not sure what the input is for that anyways

I forgot she had new specials so I didn't test them out. Years of conditioning made me not use them lol.

I didn't have any problems landing all of uairs hits on cpus. F-tilt and u-tilt are nice combo moves now. I really like running around jc-ing u-smash. Now that I know how the 3ds demo works I'll try her out a bit more extensively and not worry about collecting stat boosts.

 

[ECHOnce]

With all of the recent news of Sheik buffs, I'm way more excited for this game now. (albeit guiltily; that my-character-actually-seems-super-viable-again guilt?) In hindsight - after gaining a better understanding of how well she plays in SSB4 - the removal of her broken-easy chain throws and F-air kills from Brawl was definitely necessary, but should've been substituted with other viable combo/kill options. Now that she's gotten this whole new arsenal of tilt-locks, shortened endlag on moves, and a fabulous new kill move (jaaank~), we'll hopefully be seeing her move back up and reclaim a decent spot in the tiers. :D

And the best part is, her BF isn't too broken, right? It may work on shields and throw people off if used in moderation, but can't it just as easily be air-dodged or spot-dodged and then punished? I imagine such an otherwise great move would be appropriately balanced with something like long landing lag or something (in which case even quick panic dodge-rolls could probably punish it). Are her legs disjointed like with her B-airs in previous games, or can she get hit out of it easily? Is it slow enough for people to react to easily if they get used to it? Of course, I'm just theorizing as usual, since I haven't gotten to play or properly study any vids yet...I just love how my college finals happened to end up on one of the most important weeks for Smash ever. LOVE.

I also played at the nintendo world store and will go again in a few hours to try out shiek again. Her movements felt pretty similar to melee, but I felt that her up-b distance got buffed.

Her up-b reappear hitbox definitely has a damage component now. I was using it to ko cpus haha. Might be her strongest ko move now (at least with the smash run buffs).

Walljumping is way easier. I kept doing it by accident a bunch of times. I'm mainly a melee player, so I'm unsure how different it was from brawl's input. I noticed that jumping inbetween two walls (like in fourside) does stale the walljump. I tried wall riding (where you just stand on the wall or w/e) but I couldn't do it. I'm not sure what the input is for that anyways

I forgot she had new specials so I didn't test them out. Years of conditioning made me not use them lol.

I didn't have any problems landing all of uairs hits on cpus. F-tilt and u-tilt are nice combo moves now. I really like running around jc-ing u-smash. Now that I know how the 3ds demo works I'll try her out a bit more extensively and not worry about collecting stat boosts.

Waht. They give access to SSB4 continuously at the Nintendo World Store? Can I be you please?

Anyhow lol...concerning the Up-B distance, do you mean before and/or after she vanishes? Would you say that the movement before the vanish it feels more free like in Melee, or is it fairly short and limited like Brawl?

Easier wall-jumps sounds good to me; there's definitely not enough people that make use of it for recovery. That might add some interesting mix-ups to the new recovery/edge-guarding game.

I'm taking a guess that you were just messing around with the boosts and silly CPU AI lol, but did you actually mean JC U-smash was effective because of any buffs? Does it slide any further/faster, or have stronger/more tangible hitboxes? Speaking of which, I think i read somewhere that DACUS is either extremely difficult or non-existent in SSB4. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Maikou]

Can one of you who can access Smash 3DS possibly give some slightly more Casual info, mostly how fun it is to just play around with the character? or if Sheik's Dodges have changed in any way? I know Link's back roll was changed to his epic back-flip.....

Also, wall jumping was so hilariously easy in Brawl. Seriously, I do it all the time, 99% of the time I'm not even trying. Wall Jumping too much in Brawl also begins to "stale" as you call it (unless I didn't get the meaning of the word right; You do mean that wall jumping multiple times in a row results in less height each time, eventually just slowing your fall, right? Sorry if I misunderstand, there are some Competitive things I know for sure, but others I'm not completely surer about). In fact, the best place to check if this is true is one of the earlier stages of Subspace Emissary; where you go from above ground, through a sort-of tunnel after breaking some blocks and come upon a hole in the ceiling that requires all of Mario's jumping skill just to get to, or all of Pit's jumps. (Again, I might not be understanding, but from the context I'm seeing "stale" used in by most of you, I'm taking an educated guess. please correct me if I use a Competitive word wrong.)

Can I just ask what "DACUS" is?

 

[-dMT-]

From what I could tell, DACUS (Dash-Attack Canceled Up Smash @ Maikou ) is gone.

Nintendo World Store is giving demo access from 9am to 8pm every day June 11th - 15th I believe. It gets crowded, so they use a sort of ticket and wristband system with a time slot and limit you to 2 play sessions a day. The issues are the games are heavily monitored by the staff, and the area where the setups are is separated from the rest of the demo floor, so getting recordings and such is basically impossible - nobody is in there that isn't playing.

Sheik's dodges seemed unremarkable in terms of change. I'm hearing here and there that dodge rolls have been buffed. Not sure, really. Difficult to properly test when up against random mobs in Smash Run who behave differently. The FFA match at the end was short. I should say I made short work of the CPUs. Sheik just felt... super smooth and right to me. I had been playing her a lot in Project M these last few months, and when I tried her in SSB4 yesterday, I felt right at home. I think that speaks volumes. She really is closer to her melee self.

Smash Run seems really fun btw - and actually challenging, too. So many of the enemies have super armor and massive hitboxes. Nothing like being chased by a Bullet Bill that just won't stop while you are fighting waves of classic Nintendo enemies. It's actually a series of time-limited challenges, be it a boss-type or waves of enemies. Eventually time runs out and you see what kind of buffs you collected. Even though I went in with the full intention of ignoring buffs and testing Sheik's feel and new skills, etc, I still had a blast with Smash Run.

 

[thesage]

I didn't really like smash run that much, but I wasn't a big fan of subspace emissary either. Too many places require you to use your double jump to reach slowing down the pace by a lot.

I'd just like to reiterate (and get back onto topic) that Sheik felt smooth but I can't tell if she's viable until the actual game is out.

If you are interested in casual stuff all I know regarding that is that I'm still able to just spam f-smash with Marth and beat people with one move lol. Basic spacing ftw haha.

 

[Maikou]

Thank you @ -dMT- Like I said, I might decide to go Competitive level in the future, but in the meantime I'd mostly like to understand the Competitive playstyle 100% before I even truly think about it. For now I'm still gonna be a casual player, but I still enjoy discussing with other people, even if most of the time they confuse the heck out of me with complicated things. Though I won't ever really pick up Project M. I know that they're all for Competitive play, but I just think they're a little assuming. I've played Melee casually all my life and to be honest, Project M just doesn't look like Melee to me. it seems more like a fangame based off Melee's speed and physics with Brawl's graphics, and while saying it's like Melee might be mostly true, I think they should call themselves something more along the lines of "Project Competitve" or something. calling themselves Project Melee is honestly false advertising; Melee would never have had Lucario become basically a Street Fighter character made to work in Smash. I also don't think Lucas would've had such a moveset change. I don't mean any offense to Project M or anyone related to it, I just don't think the name they've given their project is accurate to it's goal.

For Sheik, the main thing I'm hoping for is to just have fun and find a use for all her available moves. Luckily with Burst Grenades the Side-B finally has a proper use (I'm pretty sure Sheik's chain in Brawl as a tether didn't go much farther than her Vanish move) and Bouncing Fish just looks cool.

Smash Run seems like the 3DS' new Adventure Mode, and that's fine by me. from what I know now, and -dMT-'s word, I'm going to love playing through it.

 

[Tristan_win]

A thread was made claiming to have aMSa insights of the game and thankfully he talk about sheik <3
http://smashboards.com/threads/vgbc-amsas-thoughts-on-smash-4-from-the-invitational.358281/

Notes on Sheik (1)
* Forward-Tilt does 4%, combo's
* Up-tilt does 5~6%
* Hatchet (Forward-air?) does 4%
* Side-B's bomb has a long recovery but deals 1% initially and 13% for the explosion. It will also explode if used in the air. Because you can start to move around the moment the explosion happens, you should be able to combo with it.
8:30
Sheik continued
* I think Side-B could be strong depending on how you use it.
* Down-B isn't very fast, and deals 9%. It's difficult to use.
* Her Forward-Air has been changed from a kill move to a combo move, and has almost zero landing lag.
* Her up-air is now a drill much like Samus' from Melee
* Back-air has high kill potential.

 

[-dMT-]

A thread was made claiming to have aMSa insights of the game and thankfully he talk about sheik <3
http://smashboards.com/threads/vgbc-amsas-thoughts-on-smash-4-from-the-invitational.358281/

Notes on Sheik (1)
* Forward-Tilt does 4%, combo's
* Up-tilt does 5~6%
* Hatchet (Forward-air?) does 4%
* Side-B's bomb has a long recovery but deals 1% initially and 13% for the explosion. It will also explode if used in the air. Because you can start to move around the moment the explosion happens, you should be able to combo with it.
8:30
Sheik continued
* I think Side-B could be strong depending on how you use it.
* Down-B isn't very fast, and deals 9%. It's difficult to use.
* Her Forward-Air has been changed from a kill move to a combo move, and has almost zero landing lag.
* Her up-air is now a drill much like Samus' from Melee
* Back-air has high kill potential.

Sounds like they've made quite a strong character here, without treading into the OP territory of SSBM Sheik.

I'm really excited about Smash 4 because of Sheik and Greninja. I suppose I have a thing for ninjas. I just like swift characters, really.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sounds like they've made quite a strong character here, without treading into the OP territory of SSBM Sheik.

I'm really excited about Smash 4 because of Sheik and Greninja. I suppose I have a thing for ninjas. I just like swift characters, really.

I know right? It sounds like they made her do less damage overall but increase her combo potential. Honestly fair in Brawl was in a really odd place, couldn't kill and you really couldn't combo with it. I'm glad they made it more into a combo move now.

 

[-dMT-]

Yeah, it was bad at both. I'm happy if it combos well if it won't kill. My favorite thing about the move has always been the angle of the knockback. I've killed plenty of times in Brawl with fair offstage due to that delicious angle it sends the target.

I can already see it. Offstage to intercept. Fair > DJ Fair > BF spike.

The new Ken combo.

 

[Tristan_win]

Yeah, it was bad at both. I'm happy if it combos well if it won't kill. My favorite thing about the move has always been the angle of the knockback. I've killed plenty of times in Brawl with fair offstage due to that delicious angle it sends the target.

I can already see it. Offstage to intercept. Fair > DJ Fair > BF spike.

The new Ken combo.

The first time I see that combo I'm going to lose bladder control.

... I like this. Speculating how great Sheik will be, being able to talking to people again about how Sheik can be really good.... I haven't felt this since like 2010.

edit: HMMM, more like 09 really.

 

[-dMT-]

The first time I see that combo I'm going to lose bladder control.

... I like this. Speculating how great Sheik will be, being able to talking to people again about how Sheik can be really good.... I haven't felt this since like 2010.

edit: HMMM, more like 09 really.

I might not have been a great Sheik player, but I've always been great at hyping myself over combos based on pure speculation!

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Bouncing Fish is the move that caught my eye. It seems to be one of those moves that looks to be high risk/high reward.

 

[Chaos Archangel]

VGBootcamp spent some time with Shiek to document her moves on the 3DS. Here's the vid:

Sheik

 

[Tristan_win]

Sorry Chaos but someone has already link that video in the Sheik thread.

 

[Hong]

In any event, I've merged the thread here as opposed to closing it. If the Sheik GD even goes on another subject, people can come back to this thread in the future if they are merely interested in her moves.

I must say she is looking very nice.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Sheik is broken.

Dope F-tilt (can now pivot with like a pseudo wavedash)

Melee Needle cancel

Crazy long bair

Burst Grenade that can **** with tech chases.

Bouncing Fish spike

Can still jab into whatever

Jab finisher

Auto-cancelable aerials.

GG

 

[-dMT-]

Much too early to call any character broken.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Much too early to call any character broken.

That's what they said about Meta Knight.

 

[Tristan_win]

That's what they said about Meta Knight.

To my knowledge no one said Meta knight was broken before the game came out. Also what you listed didn't have a single kill option. Sheik not going to be 'broken' if they haven't fixed her lack of kill power.

Oh also..

Burst grenades wind effect wont be that good against non sandbags, the start up of the move doesn't make it ideal for tech chasing and since Sheik doesn't seem to have a reliable means to start a tech chase like in melee it be hard to abuse it like that.

We can't jab into whatever, in Brawl studies on the Jab were inconclusive about any true combo potential and Sheik clearly doesn't have Melee's godly jab.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

To my knowledge no one said Meta knight was broken before the game came out. Also what you listed didn't have a single kill option. Sheik not going to be 'broken' if they haven't fixed her lack of kill power.

Oh also..

Burst grenades wind effect wont be that good against non sandbags, the start up of the move doesn't make it ideal for tech chasing and since Sheik doesn't seem to have a reliable means to start a tech chase like in melee it be hard to abuse it like that.

We can't jab into whatever, in Brawl studies on the Jab were inconclusive about any true combo potential and Sheik clearly doesn't have Melee's godly jab.

I'm fairly sure that people were apprehensive about Meta Knight as a character before Brawl's release, considering that he is a character with multiple jumps and disjointed hit boxes it's hard not to see that he would be a very good character at the least based on his design.

Perhaps tech chase wasn't the right word, what I meant was wake up. The vacuum effect won't be incredibly good, but it can mess with recovery and spacing. It may not be the best option considering the cool down, but the fact that it is a delay-able large hitbox means it is a decent move.

All things considered her jab is still good. I mean a level 9 Luigi can just Nair you in Brawl obviously, but it's still a solid reset tool, especially for people who mash out aerials since you can buffer a shield grab.

Sheik has options in this game as it stands, more so than Brawl. And with the current pivoting mechanic that allows characters to dash into smashes, tilts and jabs makes her a strong contender in my opinion.