Sheik's moveset

[Maikou]

(This is my first thread post ever, so if I mess up, please forgive me and help me correct my mistakes)
In Sakurai's Super Smash Brothers Direct, Sheik was seperated from Zelda and has been given two new special moves, the Burst Grenade for her Side-B, and the Bouncing Fish (Technique) as her Down-B. I want to know people's thoughts and possibilities for Sheik getting some more new moves. (and possibly actually using that blade on her hip)

 

[EddyBearr]

I've got a lot of optimism regarding Sheik's new moves, but I can't say I like them just yet. If they end up being atrocious, then I'll obviously not be too pleased with them.

She should definitely use the blade more.

 

[Critzilean]

I just hope she has better killing power considering before it was gimped because of the idea that she would switch to Zelda to get kills, which was BS.

Also, she better use the blade.

 

[Heefe]

I hope her Down Air is not as broken as it was in Brawl. Please let it be like Melee's Down Air.

 

[BJN39]

I hope her Down Air is not as broken as it was in Brawl. Please let it be like Melee's Down Air.

Huh? ...What?

Her DAir was Crap in Brawl. No real power until 200%, and the fact it propelled downwards was even worse. > , >

I honestly hope it DOES become more like Melee's if the move stays.

 

[Tristan_win]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48280274@N02/13729860404/in/set-72157643678092364/
Fair confirmed?

 

[BJN39]

Speak of the devil, I was just mentioning how I wanted Sheik's DAir not to propel down anymore and...

Poof! One of Sheik's new images.

They have already developed Sheik's hair properties, and her hair is pointed down. Woo.

EDIT; @ Tristan_win

^ Hmm, here we go.

 

[Tristan_win]

Speak of the devil, I was just mentioning how I wanted Sheik's DAir not to propel down anymore and...


Poof! One of Sheik's new images.

They have already developed Sheik's hair properties, and her hair is pointed down. Woo.

EDIT; @ Tristan_win

^ Hmm, here we go.

Yay, now everyone we must pray to god and or science that they will change her Fsmash into something actually good.

 

[B!ggad]

Speak of the devil, I was just mentioning how I wanted Sheik's DAir not to propel down anymore and...

Where is that from? I don't remember seeing that in that flickr folder.

Edit: Oh okay there's 200 new flickr pictures. Getting exhausted just thinking about it.

 

[Heefe]

Huh? ...What?

Her DAir was Crap in Brawl. No real power until 200%, and the fact it propelled downwards was even worse. > , >

I honestly hope it DOES become more like Melee's if the move stays.

That's actually what I meant. Maybe I misused the word "broken".

 

[BJN39]

That's actually what I meant. Maybe I misused the word "broken".

XD

Well then, I guess we're in agreement.

 

[Maikou]

I, personally, just wish she actually used that blasted blade. seriously it's like Ganondorf all over again: perfect chance for something unique with that there sword and them there magics, but noooo.........have to keep him as a freaking Captain Falcon clone.

Though I must say, I might actually use Sheik more often now with those new moves. Burst Grenades are certainly better than the Chain she used to have. quite an upgrade there, and I don't care how wierd the name is, Bouncing Fish (Technique) looks epic. plus better recovery always helps.

 

[Sonicguy726]

I've got a lot of optimism regarding Sheik's new moves, but I can't say I like them just yet. If they end up being atrocious, then I'll obviously not be too pleased with them.

She should definitely use the blade more.

Anything is better than that damn whip

 

[HRR2b23]

Well from the small amount of gameplay we saw in the trailer, it looks like her dtilt/ftilt have trajectories closer to their melee counterparts, but overall I just hope they restore some of the kill power of the slap and her uair, since Shielda is no longer a way to kill people, and fsmash is just terrible. It looks like bouncing fish may be a good horizontal kill move, but we have no idea what % the character she hit with it was at in the trailer.

 

[Maikou]

If I had to guess, I'd say Pit was at around 30% or so damage. and for the record, it's KNOCKING OUT, not killing. people in Smash don't die, as evidenced by Brawl and the SSE.

Just Saying, Smash Brothers is E-Rated, just like all Nintendo's other games. I keep getting annoyed at the constant use of the word "kill" when it's "K.O." which means Knock Out. Again, just saying. I don't want a fight on here.

 

[Sonicguy726]

If I had to guess, I'd say Pit was at around 30% or so damage. and for the record, it's KNOCKING OUT, not killing. people in Smash don't die, as evidenced by Brawl and the SSE.

Just Saying, Smash Brothers is E-Rated, just like all Nintendo's other games. I keep getting annoyed at the constant use of the word "kill" when it's "K.O." which means Knock Out. Again, just saying. I don't want a fight on here.

Isn't smash T rated like since melee

 

[Maikou]

Ugh! Don't even get me started on that! Like I've said about literally ten times by now, Melee was only T rated for two things!
One: It's a fighting game, and it has explosions as well as cartoon/fantasy violence. (By the way, Shadow the Hedgehog is an E10+ rated game with far more violence than Melee, and it was obviously intended for an older audiance, while Melee was intended for younger players and just happened to end up the most competitive Smash to date)
Two, and this is the main reason Melee was T rated: the E10+ rating didn't exist at the time. I've been playing Super Smash Brothers Melee since I was FOUR, and I've NEVER seen ANYTHING in it that would make it T rated if the E10+ rating existed back then. I was enraged when I found the T-Rating on the cover one day.

for Brawl being T-rated.....well that's rather obvious. They went for a realistic look in Brawl, as well as focusing on detail and for some reason making the Zero Suit look like a second skin, not to mention Wario's crude humor, and Master Hand's real injury against Tabuu (That he only received for not being a Trophy like the Smashers). I also feel inclined to mentioned the planned "Battle Damage" that was in the game's coding (look up Super Smash Bros Did You Know Gaming)

For the NEW Smash Brothers, It's very likely the game will get the E10+ Rating, for it's more colorful, Melee-styled looks, as well as the absence of anything relatively realistic in the game concerning actual fighting. plus I will mention Yoshi's cartoony look, as well as the Pokemon's, and the fact that Toon Link actually looks relatively fitting now.

Plus we can't forget the ORIGINAL Smash for the 64, which was E-Rated. besides, in Melee they censored the word "hell" in the DK Rap on the DK Waterfall stage. (the name of which I forget at the moment) I'm pretty Sakurai wanted Melee to get the E-Rating. why would a T-game censor a cussword?

And we shouldn't be discussing this on the Sheik forum. if we want to discuss this, we'll have a private conversation.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Ugh! Don't even get me started on that! Like I've said about literally ten times by now, Melee was only T rated for two things!
One: It's a fighting game, and it has explosions as well as cartoon/fantasy violence. (By the way, Shadow the Hedgehog is an E10+ rated game with far more violence than Melee, and it was obviously intended for an older audiance, while Melee was intended for younger players and just happened to end up the most competitive Smash to date)
Two, and this is the main reason Melee was T rated: the E10+ rating didn't exist at the time. I've been playing Super Smash Brothers Melee since I was FOUR, and I've NEVER seen ANYTHING in it that would make it T rated if the E10+ rating existed back then. I was enraged when I found the T-Rating on the cover one day.

for Brawl being T-rated.....well that's rather obvious. They went for a realistic look in Brawl, as well as focusing on detail and for some reason making the Zero Suit look like a second skin, not to mention Wario's crude humor, and Master Hand's real injury against Tabuu (That he only received for not being a Trophy like the Smashers). I also feel inclined to mentioned the planned "Battle Damage" that was in the game's coding (look up Super Smash Bros Did You Know Gaming)

For the NEW Smash Brothers, It's very likely the game will get the E10+ Rating, for it's more colorful, Melee-styled looks, as well as the absence of anything relatively realistic in the game concerning actual fighting. plus I will mention Yoshi's cartoony look, as well as the Pokemon's, and the fact that Toon Link actually looks relatively fitting now.

Plus we can't forget the ORIGINAL Smash for the 64, which was E-Rated. besides, in Melee they censored the word "hell" in the DK Rap on the DK Waterfall stage. (the name of which I forget at the moment) I'm pretty Sakurai wanted Melee to get the E-Rating. why would a T-game censor a cussword?

And we shouldn't be discussing this on the Sheik forum. if we want to discuss this, we'll have a private conversation.

I think there are a few things that could get it above E like sheik's chain taunt which is a little dark, just zero suit samus in general and if snake comes back

 

[Maikou]

Snake will not return, that is just all there is to it: Snake is gone and he is not coming back to Smash.
Zero Suit Samus didn't effect the rating on Metroid Zero Mission, why should the more clothing-like Zero Suit from Other M effect the rating on Smash 4?

Sheik's chain? please. You know how many times I see things like that on a normal basis? it's not like it's anything much anyway. yeah it looks threatening, but to me it looks like she poses while the chain shines. plus it looks more like string now.

and again, PM me if you want to discuss this.

 

[BJN39]

Well from the small amount of gameplay we saw in the trailer, it looks like her dtilt/ftilt have trajectories closer to their melee counterparts, but overall I just hope they restore some of the kill power of the slap and her uair, since Shielda is no longer a way to kill people, and fsmash is just terrible. It looks like bouncing fish may be a good horizontal kill move, but we have no idea what % the character she hit with it was at in the trailer.

Actually, (fun fact) on lots of attacks, one of the "on hit" animations that appears (For a split second) can tell the angle of the move, and these DO appear on sheik's attacks in the clip. (This animation I speak of is the jagged purple/yellow or lines that appear slightly away from the point of hit on lots of arm and leg moves. Don't take them as 100% fact though, as a straight sideways one of these on a hit animation could in fact indicate a Sakurai angle, not a 0/180 degree angle.)

And with that, Sheik's Ftilt is shown hitting at the same Brawl-esqe inward upward angle, and Dtilt's looked the same as Brawl. (Same as Melee too?)

 

[HRR2b23]

Actually, (fun fact) on lots of attacks, one of the "on hit" animations that appears (For a split second) can tell the angle of the move, and these DO appear on sheik's attacks in the clip. (This animation I speak of is the jagged purple/yellow or lines that appear slightly away from the point of hit on lots of arm and leg moves. Don't take them as 100% fact though, as a straight sideways one of these on a hit animation could in fact indicate a Sakurai angle, not a 0/180 degree angle.)

And with that, Sheik's Ftilt is shown hitting at the same Brawl-esqe inward upward angle, and Dtilt's looked the same as Brawl. (Same as Melee too?)

Hmm, interesting. I must have missed something then, I thought the ftilt hit straight up in the direct, though I could definitely be wrong.

 

[BJN39]

Hmm, interesting. I must have missed something then, I thought the ftilt hit straight up in the direct, though I could definitely be wrong.

There's a good explanation for that; Directional Influence.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Totally not going to miss the option to transform into Zelda. Actually I am, a little. But not that much. Also not going to miss the chain as much either. It was so much fun to use when not fighting...but I never found much of a use for it when I was actually trying to win.

 

[Yams]

I'm a bit confused about her new side-special. Sakurai says the grenade explodes when she pulls the pin, so does she just throw a grenade or is it like a grenade tacked on to her old side smash, and it explodes when you pull the string?

 

[B!ggad]

I'm a bit confused about her new side-special. Sakurai says the grenade explodes when she pulls the pin, so does she just throw a grenade or is it like a grenade tacked on to her old side smash, and it explodes when you pull the string?

Wow I've been having the same questions and I was wondering what other people even think how this move is going to work at all.

The consensus seemed to be "new projectile, inherently can't be opposed to that", which makes sense, but by how Sakurai worded it, this explanation might be spot on.

Not what I'd have expected but it just makes way too much sense now. I feel enlightened. (Maybe that was obvious to everyone else though already )

 

[ToothiestAura]

Has her grab been shown in any of those press pics? If not I think Sakurai should change the chain to a grab, though that may not be needed honestly.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Has her grab been shown in any of those press pics? If not I think Sakurai should change the chain to a grab, though that may not be needed honestly.

If by 'chain' you mean her pre-Smash 4 side B, it has been changed to the Burst Grenade

 

[ToothiestAura]

If by 'chain' you mean her pre-Smash 4 side B, it has been changed to the Burst Grenade

Yeah, I mean since the chain has been replaced it could be now made into her grab.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I wouldn't count on it being her grab, but now that you mention it I could kinda see it happening. It'd give her good range for sure and she'd keep her tether recovery.

She'd have to whip that thing out fast though, I hate slow grabs *cough* Zero Suit Samus* cough*.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Yeah, I mean since the chain has been replaced it could be now made into her grab.

Oh, don't know how I misread that; my bad.

 

[Maikou]

I would HATE for Sheik to lose her Tether Recovery! especially now that they ACTUALLY WORK! One of the previous pics of the day has Sakurai stating (and showing) the Clawshot and Grapple Beam having extended range so that they can actually be used for horizontal recovery! I'd love to see the chain in Sheik's grab, though I'd guess the animation for it would be the same as it was when it was her Side-B. Funny thing in Brawl though: if your tether is done right you'll instantly latch on instead of waiting through the animation like you did in Melee.

 

[Maikou]

I just remembered something I made up a while ago. And I feel I should mention it, especially after playing with Sheik for a while (I CAN PLAY BRAWL AGAIN! but I will never be online so even if you see a Lucario from a casual player, it's definitely not me). Each character has 3 taunts, and I've come up with a special meaning for each of them. Each taunt has a different meaning, and here are what I feel they are:
"Challenge" taunt.
"One down, -- more to go" taunt
"I win, you lose" taunt.

Best example is with Link and Pit. Link has his old n64 taunt, (Challenge) Bringing out Navi and letting her fly around a bit, (One down, -- more to go) and his special sheathing animation he did in TP whenever he defeated a boss, or if someone held the A button long enough after defeating certain enemies (I win, you lose)

Pit has "the fight is on!" (obviously challenge), "You're not ready, yet!" (one down, -- more to go), and the weird angel pose (I win, you lose).

For Sheik, she has the chain taunt, (Challenge) the one-hand stand, (One down, -- more to go) and her Melee taunt. (I win, you lose).

Chain justified!

plus it looks like a string now, as I said, so there's that. a string is definitely less threatening. (I mean, considering these guys, a chain is no real threat anyway. they'd all be able to just break it/escape some other way.)

 

[SmashShadow]

Sheik's up air is now multihit. 0:24

 

[Maikou]

I thought it was always a multi-hit? it's a drill move....

 

[ECHOnce]

Sheik's up air is now multihit. 0:24

Is that you playing? D-air looks like a stall-then-fall again, and judging from the lack of many F-airs (if any...?) I'm guessing we can assume the player had previously tried her out and realized they have retained their Brawl uselessness...but do correct me if I'm wrong in saying so. Please correct me. (crying inside)

I thought it was always a multi-hit? it's a drill move....

Regardless of whether or not it did, the knockback was strong enough to send them away before several other hitboxes in later frames connected. It was probably her second-best aerial killing option in Melee, depending on the situation, and (iirc) kept much more of its killing potential than her F-air in Brawl. What SmashShadow means by a multi-hit move is one that has multiple hitboxes that have inwards knockback at first (so that the opponent is caught and trapped there for a longer duration of the attack), before a final hit with outwards kockback sends them away. The fact that it's multi-hit now can be good since it probably does more damage, but once people get used to it, they'll be able to SDI out of it pretty easily...which is sort of a bummer. .___.

 

[SmashShadow]

It's not me playing and no it was always a single hit move.

 

[HRR2b23]

From playing at the demo today, I can confirm up air is a multi hit move with decent knockback at the end. Also, after using bouncing fish you are able to act out of it, making it very useful for recovery. However, Sheik still has severe issues killing, even fsmash didn't do the job as well as in Brawl (though hitting it wasn't reliable then.) Down air is still a stall then fall, and the grenade on side b IS attached to the chain.

 

[Maikou]

Why would Sakurai nerf Sheik even more? There's no way all that's gonna stay the same. Though to be honest, I liked Sheik's Dair in Brawl: Getting the ground faster is one of the key aspects of my play style, which is ironic since I play as Pichu and Lucario in Melee and Brawl respectively.

 

[HRR2b23]

Why would Sakurai nerf Sheik even more? There's no way all that's gonna stay the same. Though to be honest, I liked Sheik's Dair in Brawl: Getting the ground faster is one of the key aspects of my play style, which is ironic since I play as Pichu and Lucario in Melee and Brawl respectively.

It is probably that bouncing fish is supposed to be a kill move, but I had a hard time using it for that purpose. I believe up smash can kill on a sweetspot as well, but honestly I was just not very impressed with her showing. Hopefully she's changed for the better.

Edit: Oh, another positive is very little landing lag on the aerials other than down air. Also, needles thrown in the air have essentially no lag on landing.

 

[ECHOnce]

Why would Sakurai nerf Sheik even more? There's no way all that's gonna stay the same. Though to be honest, I liked Sheik's Dair in Brawl: Getting the ground faster is one of the key aspects of my play style,

It is probably that bouncing fish is supposed to be a kill move, but I had a hard time using it for that purpose. I believe up smash can kill on a sweetspot as well, but honestly I was just not very impressed with her showing. Hopefully she's changed for the better.

Sheik's D-air did become her quickest option for returning the ground in Brawl, but it also meant sacrificing the great combo/setup potential it had in Melee. For a character whose strategy completely revolves around comboing opponents to wrack up substantial damage, removing any of her options to continue combos - much less her only reliable aerial option - is detrimental to her play. Not only that, but the only benefits she gains from this are negligible. Sheik has (or at least had; I'm not sure how she compared in Brawl) one of the best fast-falling speeds in the game, which alone was enough to ensure her safer return to the ground than most characters (so long as she used aerials, air-dodges, or wavelands effectively). Now she has a stall-then-fall that takes her to the ground faster, but it gives opponents with a lot of time to reach wherever she will (very predictably) land, both during the animation in the air and the landing lag. Brawl D-air also locks her into its defenseless animation, removing any options to protect herself with other aerials, airdodges, or throwing your opponent off with varying (fast-) falling speeds.

Nintendo's means of "balancing" Sheik (Sakurai alone balanced the Melee cast, but each character in Brawl and SSB4 are is balanced by a whole team. It's debatably more/less effective than one person doing it, but the point is that Sakurai isn't solely responsible for any given character's buffs/nerfs anymore) have been to strengthen her weak moves and weaken her strong moves, which essentially strips Sheik of the only things she was good for - comboing easily and get early kills. Weak moves that were good for comboing (e.g. D-air) now hit opponents further away even at low %s, ending combos earlier and before any decent damage is done. Strong moves that were good for early kills (e.g. F-air) now barely send opponents anywhere at high %s. For those that retain their strong/weak knockback, different aspects of them are made less efficient or reliable (U-air). Even her needles are worse if they retained their Brawl input method, which requires more button inputs for what already needed quick inputs and timing to be used at their full potential (gimps, stun for starting/continuing combos). It's as if Sheik's moveset, which was initially exciting with a high contrast of blacks and whites, has slowly been shaded into a dull and boring gray mess.

/rant

Sorz for the pessimism; I want to play Sheik as much as the next person here, but just judging from the few videos we have of SSB4 Sheik, I'm pretty worried about Sheik's viability already. And unfortunately, I'm no longer convinced that a grenade on a string and a janky, unreliable kill move are enough to save her.

Edit: Oh, another positive is very little landing lag on the aerials other than down air. Also, needles thrown in the air have essentially no lag on landing.

This has always been the case. All of her aerials consistently have short landing lag, with the exception of her D-air (both versions of which have long landing lag). Sheik has also been capable of Needle-Cancelling since the start, which is when she throws needles before she reaches the apex of her jump (anytime she's in the air and rising) and receives no significant landing lag if landing midway through the needle throwing animation. The only way this could be an improvement is if she reaches the apex of her jump (anytime she's in the air and falling) and then throws her needles and lands during the animation with minimal landing lag.