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Sheik: The combo queen! (13% Hitstun)

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
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Location
Boston, MA
The following is a video of two matches between a friend and myself. His Snake is really good, and has gotten immensely better as at school he's been playing with the likes of KoreanDJ (KDJ). I don't contribute much to the Sheik forums, but I assume I play her in a similar fashion as you guys, everything I do is just stuff I've figured out, in addition she was my main in Melee so she comes rather natural to me in Brawl. Anyway, with the addition of Hitstun to Brawl+ Sheik is definately top tier. Seriously, she's amazing!

Check out the video!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbdmWvXMY9Y

This video demonstrates the first time I put the combos I've been brewing in training mode to test against a real human being!
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
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Currently Japan
13% more hit stun for sheik would most likely mean of not only having a tilt lock on everyone but it would also mean such things like using marth up B to escape, ZZS down B to jump away, and Snake grenade pull unusable since they would stun

That alone would make a good number of her match up easier also attacks would also much easier combo into DACUS, the chain would be even more broken then before with extra hit stun, and dtilt would be a combo starter.

This is all very pretty and I love winning but hack brawl should never come tournament playable since doing so would almost for sure cut off any kind of new comers into the game.
 

demodemo

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Mrs.sauga, Canada
i watched the first match, and yeah of course sheik would do well, seeing as she has combos in a neaar comboless game without hacks.

the reason why snake did so bad is because snake is already vulnerable to flurries of air attacks (and flurry attacks in general due to his falling speed) without hacks, and adding hacks just amkes it worse. plus, snake is a character that doesn't rely on chains of hits, and relies on single, hard hitting attacks, and set ups created by his projectiles. that is why he does so well in brawl (no hacks) but in a game with combos you are just taking that away from him lol

that being said, sheik would be overpowered, since she has a reliable killer combo in 100%+ percentages on all characters (ftilt > walk a bit> usmash tipper). then again, think about metaknight. i think metaknight would be able to tornado indefinitely -_-;

edit: many of those chains you did, like dtilt to ftilt, or ftilt to utilt already work in hackless brawl

i must admit though, the dair to bair combo made me chuckle :laugh:
 

-Mars-

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I wish people would stop posting things on Brawl hacks.............who cares?
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Hacked Brawl isn't bad, and it's always a nice change of pace. That said, the standard hitstun increase is usually +10%.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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To the naysayers...

I wish people would stop posting things on Brawl hacks.............who cares?
Unfortunately the fact that you say this is rather moot. I would rather not post this here, but where else have I to post it? What would make sense is for Smash Boards to dedicate a section of the forums to Brawl+, as such, these posts would only be seen by those who care to see them, those browsing the section anyway.

So... sorry that Smash Boards hasn't given Brawl+ it's own section..?

It's also rather foolish to say "who cares" because obviously I care, as such you're saying I don't have a worth as a being. What you're saying is you don't care, and that's fine, don't reply, don't partake. Play in Sakurai's rendition of Brawl.

The thing that gets me is in the beginning, many people hated many aspects of Brawl, be it minute or painstaking. They hated how Sakurai limited their options, making the game more "noob" friendly. They hated how the Brawl coders, in a further attempt of minimizing competitive value in the game, added random tripping. Yet finally, when there's a chance for us to "patch" the game as we (the smash community) see fit, some people turn and hide.

They cry that it should go competitive, for reason far beyond my understanding. In doings so the are effectively saying, "no, I like that Sakurai has limited Brawl, taken out ATs, and downgraded so many other competitive aspects of Smash. I like how just now in the series L canceling was removed... making laggy characters unplayable -- even to the best.. etc.."

Brawl is not the first game whose patches (future) has been taken into the hands of its faithful community, and it won't be the last. Think of the RTS series Command and Conquer (C&C). C&C Generals stopped being patched, by EA, and certain strategies arose that were effectively always win win. Said strategies all arose from the same team too, it was broken. Not to mention certain rediculous bugs existed. The game still lives on today, but not thanks to EA... It survives competitively thanks to the community mod derived from the community as a whole. Sure the game may still be played without the mod, but competitively Generals, Tiberium Wars, and a slew of other games base their high level competitive play on patches and mods designed by the community, the community who actually play the games on a level at which they recognize what needs changing.

If you don't think Brawl needs changing, then I don't know what to so. If you like tripping in midst of your battle, then I'm even further in the fray. If you like nonpunishable multi-air dodges good for you. Some people on the other hand like to play something that has a higher level of finesse. A game that is better, more refined, and more enjoyable, a game where one doesn't randomly trip.

Hacked Brawl isn't bad, and it's always a nice change of pace. That said, the standard hitstun increase is usually +10%.
Exactly, and I think I'm going to go back to 10% and conduct more testing. :)
 

Rawr_

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If you don't think Brawl needs changing, then I don't know what to so. If you like tripping in midst of your battle, then I'm even further in the fray. If you like nonpunishable multi-air dodges good for you. Some people on the other hand like to play something that has a higher level of finesse. A game that is better, more refined, and more enjoyable, a game where one doesn't randomly trip.
did you lose your melee disc? lol
 

Dan_X

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Nope, you see, now I play Brawl+ which is Brawl, but with many aspects that made Melee so great-- so, it's truly the best of both worlds. It's so much more enjoyable throughout. In addition, the fighting is much smarter than general Brawl, with comboing and more options at ones disposal.
 

Rawr_

Smash Apprentice
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Brawl+ has meta knight, though, and with hitstun he'd be nothing short of godly. Doesn't sound more fun than melee to me... can you imagine only having one airdodge at a time against an aerial monster like that?
 

D1RE

Smash Cadet
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Call it patched or Brawl+ if you want to, fact remains it's still a hack. I dislike a lot of factors in Brawl, and I think a lot of the changes that are possible with hacking are good. However, Sakurai made Brawl as it is, on purpose. If you don't like that I suggest you go back to melee. Btw, doesn't the melee air dodge render 5 chars unusable since they have lack an animation for it?
 

Dan_X

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Brawl+ has meta knight, though, and with hitstun he'd be nothing short of godly. Doesn't sound more fun than melee to me... can you imagine only having one airdodge at a time against an aerial monster like that?
For one... MK is nearly Broken as it is. It's a controversial topic around here, there are two very distinct sides; one that says he's broken, ban him, and the other pleading not to ban him.

Adding hitstun makes characters better universally, as they can combo when they weren't able to before. This means that they can combo the all might MK. Adding hitstun to the entire cast creates the greater good as there are far more pros than there are cons. Should all of the other characters be denied the opportunity for hitstun, which would give them a fair ground with which to fight, just because MK would also become better? If so, I'd say that's poor logic.

Call it patched or Brawl+ if you want to, fact remains it's still a hack. I dislike a lot of factors in Brawl, and I think a lot of the changes that are possible with hacking are good. However, Sakurai made Brawl as it is, on purpose. If you don't like that I suggest you go back to melee. Btw, doesn't the melee air dodge render 5 chars unusable since they have lack an animation for it?
So you refuse to consider the hacks because of the somewhat negative connotations surrounding the word "hack." That sounds rather unreasonable if you ask me. People who suggest others to go back to Melee FAIL EPICALLY, simply because they fail to see the bigger picture, which is Brawl+. Why would I want Melee if I like the new characters / levels / etc. in Brawl, backed with hacks to make the game better. As I said, your reply is rather idiotic because Brawl+ is better than both Melee and Brawl alone.

Also, to answer your question. No. No characters are effected by the melee air dodge in such a way that they are un playable. After dodging in the air they enter their falling state... nothing is different aside from the fact that they can't do anything until they touch the ground or grab the ledge (like in Melee).

You truly don't know what you're missing out on, be more open minded. You don't have to play it indefinitely, you can go back and forth from Brawl to Brawl+ on a dime. At least check it out...
 

D1RE

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I'm afraid I forgot to add somehting imporant to my post, which is my bad. Competetively, I don't like hacks for the game. As for playing casual it doesn't bother me. I hate tripping, I'd love to see wavedashign and l-canceling in brawl. Still, for a competetive game I don't want it to be "configured". The reason for that is simple. When playing it in tournaments, you play it officially. There are sponsors and stuff like that. While I think that your Brawl+ is way more competetive and set for high lvl games, I think it's wrong to openly support hacking of a game. You could call it moral, pathetic or idiotic, fact remains that I think it's wrong to support and sponse a hacked game.
 

demodemo

Smash Ace
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i guess you can say that, but there is little chance of sakurai picking the game up and endorsing it over nintendo wifi lol

plus, you have to consider consoles. it is easy to distribute mods through pc's, but very difficult(in comparison) and expensive to use codes in wiis
 

legion598

Smash Ace
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Mar 29, 2008
Messages
751
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illinois peoria area
i dont think ppl realize that brawl is already unblanced so when u change core game mechanics all it does is make the differences between characters even larger. So the only way to balance it out is to individually change each character which would take far too much time. I think were better off leaving it as is unless nintendo itself decided to patch it which is unlikely. Also dont u think 13% hit stun is a bit much?
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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Counter-Strike
exactly. You forgot to add Team Fortress. ;)

plus, you have to consider consoles. it is easy to distribute mods through pc's, but very difficult(in comparison) and expensive to use codes in wiis
Perhaps, but it's still far from out of reach. Also, I don't get where the expense comes into this. SD cards cost 10$, and the larger ones (2gigs) are on sale all the time. I got my 2gig one for 15$... and it was a high speed card. Also, the SD card reader was 10$... I spent 25$ to hack my Wii. I didn't even need to buy the SD card as it was, I chose to dedicate a particular larger, and faster card to the Wii.

In addition, there are numerous how tos all over the place. On this forum, on youtube, all over the internet. So there's NO excuse.

i dont think ppl realize that brawl is already unblanced so when u change core game mechanics all it does is make the differences between characters even larger. So the only way to balance it out is to individually change each character which would take far too much time. I think were better off leaving it as is unless nintendo itself decided to patch it which is unlikely. Also dont u think 13% hit stun is a bit much?
the point of hacking was not entirely to balance Brawl but to add to it or take away from it what the community felt necessary. I'm not even going to bother going into a more formal argument... I don't care to bother at this point. I'll say this, the fact that the hacks give more options to each character is a form of balance in and of itself. Like hitstun... each character can combo now, so one can combo MK... and wipe him out..




Also, someone stated that Brawl+ has MK, so... with the changes made to Brawl MK will only become better... Sure this is true, though this is extreme... MK doesn't really have to be in Brawl Plus, which negates your point in another way. Obviously I wouldn't use this as I wouldn't take a character out of the game, I just found it funny.

No MK Roster:
0468310C 48000064
C2683170 00000008
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800020 2C050029
40A10008 38A00029
94A30004 3B7B0001
2C1B002A 4180FFDC
7FC3F378 00000000
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 00000024
00050201 03070811
12090C0E 1A06131B
21260D15 14171F25
200B2729 22241018
0A231929 00000000
 

Rawr_

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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Los Alamitos, CA
I originally thought you were talking about using it competitively, my bad >.>;
1337 h4x are fun for casuals, though. Some on AiB mains longchu lol
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Boston, MA
I originally thought you were talking about using it competitively, my bad >.>;
1337 h4x are fun for casuals, though. Some on AiB mains longchu lol
Wait, where in my response did I let on to the fact that I don't consider hacks for competitive play? I do entirely consider hacks for competitive play. Once you've played Brawl+, Brawl is nothing more than a heap of garbage if you ask me. There are so many great changes at hand, be it no tripping, L-canceling, hitstun, Melee Air Dodging, that there's no way to even consider ever wanting to play regular Brawl again. The contrast between the two is so extreme it's like night and day. I would never consider regular Brawl over Hacked Brawl for competitive matches.

Seriously. If you're defying it saying that hacking is "fun for casuals" guess what? You quite obviously have yet to have the pleasure of playing an utterly better game (Brawl+). You're analyzing something that you think you have the right to for some misplaced reason. Not until you've played Brawl+ do you have the right to truly condemn it.

To the naysayers, I urge you to hack your Wii, as it truly poses no threat to your Wii. As an addendum, it's inexpensive.

EDIT: Rawr, in reading your response again, I've apparently missed something. "Longchu" I can only assume you're referring to Pikachu with a hacked swapped moveset with a taller character... right? If so, it's blatantly apparent that you've been mislead as to what "Brawl+" actually is...

Brawl+ uses no illegitimate hacks, it's called Brawl+, a modified version of the original game name because it's meant to be an entity in and of itself. It's so different that it can be considered a new game entirely. This doesn't mean they've taken things to the extreme and made things rediculous, move swapping, super character hacks, and other such hacks for example. Instead, specific key changes have been implemented to the game to make it better than it previously was.

Here are the general differences... notice that no bizarre character mods exist in Brawl+...

Brawl:
•No hitstun (or VERY little): Very little comboing potential in Brawl, only few characters have "true" combos.
•Random tripping (so that in the midst of a competitive match someone has the potential of tripping and being smashing by the opponent just at that same moment as such the player who has tripped lost). Simply awesome. Also, no other fighter has tripping.
•The only form of aerial lag canceling is auto-canceling, and not all characters have auto-canceled aerials.
•Can recklessly air dodge multiple times in the air. Quite stupid because this lacks strategic purpose, and takes away from the game. For example, one can always air dodge and not get punished for it, it's easy to do.

Brawl+:
•Has hitstun, which ever variable the community decides to be standard will fly. As such, combos are possible for every character, making EVERY character better, even the characters were were not viable in competitive play before.
•No more random tripping. This takes out an element of chance, and we all know that chance is the last thing we need in a competitive match (i.e. that's why the primary competitive community doesn't play with items-- they induce chance)
•L-cancel has been added, this comes in many forms in Brawl+. The newest is auto L-cancel, as such each characters lag frames when landing an aerial attack on the ground has been cut in half. This means that many characters have much more viable approaches and a better aerial game then they had before. For example, Link can down air sword plant and when he touches the ground he'll be free to move twice as quickly, this makes it more difficult to punish characters like this, as it was far to easy before.
•Melee Air Dodge system is PERFECT in Brawl. For one, aside the obvious uses of wavedashing having directional influence on a single air dodge is awesome. The fact that each character can only dodge once in the air before they enter their failing animation is actually great, though if you didn't play Melee perhaps you won't understand. You can now pressure your opponent into using his airdodge when he actually doesn't want to just to then punish him for being in a helpless state after using it. It makes aerial fights much more intense and far more strategic than before.
•Pokemon Trainer: Pokemon can no longer become fatigued, and they no longer auto cycle to the next pokemon upon dieing and respawning. This is immensely helpful in making the Pokemon Trainer a more viable tourney character. He can now play like Zelda/Sheik players, a PT player can start a match as Squirtle and stay him for the entire round, without becoming incredibly weak due to fatigue as would happen in regular Brawl. If the PT player wanted to switch pokemon, he could all the same, whenever he wanted.

These are just a few of the changes in Brawl+... there are many new hacks under way, further bettering the game...

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would not want to play Brawl+ over Brawl.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Money? Only if you don't already have a copy of Twilight Princess and an SD card.
 

Big Red

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Just West of Chicago
Good stuff Orca.

I agree with you, I hate how everyone complains about Brawl's problems and then condone condemn others for trying to fix them.

Unfortunately I have yet to do get any haxs on my wii so I can't give my opinion, but it certainly looks cool. :D

<3 hitstun Sheik

Edit: Big Red phailure
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
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Money? Only if you don't already have a copy of Twilight Princess and an SD card.
Exactly. Most everyone has an SD or card lying around anyway. Expense isn't an issue, it's a poor excuse.

Good stuff Orca.

I agree with you, I hate how everyone complains about Brawl's problems and then condone others for trying to fix them.

Unfortunately I have yet to do get any haxs on my wii so I can't give my opinion, but it certainly looks cool. :D

<3 hitstun Sheik
Thanks man! Need help hacking the Wii?? Why haven't you yet (don't download nintendo update)...


If interested, I know there's a thread in the general forums on how to hack your wii and it tells you everything. Here's the wiki I used to hack mine, www.wiibrew.org

Goodluck with whatever you decide! :)
 

D1RE

Smash Cadet
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Aug 29, 2008
Messages
71
Location
Norway
After seeing your convincing arguing I'll actually give it a try once I get my own Wii. I've been ignorant on the area and I admit my mistake. It's easy to turn off the hacks if you don't like it, right?
 

colored blind

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
398
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Purdue/West Lafayette
The thing about competitive hacks on a console is that unless newcomers to the game are already entrenched in an online community like this, they won't know about it until they enter a tournament that has much different mechanics than the game they've been playing for a while now. In a competitive PC game, you're basically inducted into an online community by virtue of playing the game online. In addition, the ease of download alone makes PC hacks more viable. While it's not hard to hack the Wii, it's definitely a hassle that ultimately leads to competitive console hacks more unwieldy.

This said, though, I'm not against Brawl+. I just don't think it'll happen because it won't likely appeal to a large newcomer base, in addition to the fact that a large amount of the community who know about it already don't like it. It is really interesting to watch, though, and would agree that it makes the game far more technical and strategic, especially with this hitstun code. I think the only other big thing I haven't seen from Brawl+ yet is no auto-sweetspotting the ledge. Another good one would be Melee-style transformation for Sheik/Zelda; where they load both characters at the same time and having a set transformation time instead of loading the other one mid-battle.

It'd be really exciting to see Brawl+ get its own section on the boards. A whole new tier list, combos, strategies, and most importantly, a standard list of hacks. Best of all, you could patch the game easily if one character is seen to be overwhelmingly powerful. It just needs really responsible and thoughtful people working on and testing the hacks, as well as not going power-crazy with control over the standard hacks for Brawl+.

Btw, fun matches to watch. Sheik would surely improve with hitstun like this. All she needs is her old Fair's knockback and she'll be just as scary as in Melee.
 

Redson

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Baton Rouge, Louisiana
The problem I've had with Melee, (Which I loved ever so much, despite the fact that I wasn't very technical) was that looking back on it after playing Brawl, it was very..what's the word...I can't really think of a word, really. The controls were...Blocky? It was still a great game, yes, but Brawl just flows better to me. While I miss the technical moves of Melee, I don't play it aside for anything but friendly matches anymore because Brawl is more comfortable to me.

That being said, I <3 Brawl+. From what I've seen, it brings the technical parts of Melee back and it keeps how Brawl flows (I think? I haven't gotten to try it. Oh well, I'm sure i'll like it anyway.). I'm definately hacking my console when I get TP and an SD card reader, simply for the sake of seeing Dedede sexdashing.

Unfortunately, Brawl+ will never pick up here in LA. Our players have stated that they don't want it to happen, or if they did, the fact that we have a rather large noob base would halt us from making Brawl+ competitive. It would be "On the side" at most.

Shame. I <3 Hitstun Shiek.

Now stop complaining about Brawl+ and go play whichever you like, just leave people who want to play THEIR way alone.
 

colored blind

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No. She. Isn't.

There's even a sticky about it.

Unless Zelda uses her magic to invert her lady parts and sprout testicles, Sheik is a girl.

EDIT: Did not know that the female reproductive organ is censored.
 

*_Toon_Link_*

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
15
Apprently,you dont play LoZ. Becuase im a complete Zeltard (i admit it) and i know that Sheik is Zeldas Cover as a Young Sheikah Male. >.> Check Zeldapedia. I know im right...>.<
 

Redson

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Messages
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Trollin. In Ocarina, Zelda was male. In Melee/Brawl/TP, Shiek is female. Get over it. /r/ing a Gimpyfish F-smash on this derailing.
 
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