Q&A Sheik Q's&A's/Videos/Gen Discussion

[Fortress]

What are good ways to dash cancel with Sheik? I assume like a SH fair, DSmash and USmash are all good options.

Any others though?

U-tilt to suspend opponents (which takes some amount of dexterity) for follow-ups off of d-throw.

Here, give this a watch:

 

[HRR2b23]

I'm having some issues with the Samus matchup, similar to the issues I'm having in Melee. I can handle the super missiles relatively easily, but I've been getting destroyed by the tracking missiles and have been having issues killing. It's a little easier in Melee since you can just dthrow -> fair/uair, but with the followups off of the throw in this game being less consistent it's just making that even more of an issue. Anybody here have some tips on this matchup?

 

[Fortress]

It's not that the throw folloups are inconsistent, it's that your personal mixups between D/B-throw might be. Set up DI traps on Samus to keep her where you want, and ideally get here off of the ceiling. Stages with lower ceilings will be good to you with that U-air and U-Smash OoS. As for missile pressure, just use your shield and spot dodge wisely, and don't forget that your needles are some of your best tools available as a Sheik player. They're weaker against projectiles than they were in Melee, but they still do fantastic work.

Against characters like Samus with stellar recovery games, your goal is going to go from wall kills to ceiling kills pretty quickly. Samus is floaty, butt heavy, meaning she's going to have solid knockback resistance. You'll find that U-air will be faster than F-air to kill with.

 

[HRR2b23]

It's not that the throw folloups are inconsistent, it's that your personal mixups between D/B-throw might be. Set up DI traps on Samus to keep her where you want, and ideally get here off of the ceiling. Stages with lower ceilings will be good to you with that U-air and U-Smash OoS. As for missile pressure, just use your shield and spot dodge wisely, and don't forget that your needles are some of your best tools available as a Sheik player. They're weaker against projectiles than they were in Melee, but they still do fantastic work.

Against characters like Samus with stellar recovery games, your goal is going to go from wall kills to ceiling kills pretty quickly. Samus is floaty, butt heavy, meaning she's going to have solid knockback resistance. You'll find that U-air will be faster than F-air to kill with.

Yeah, I do tend to favor the dthrow a lot more than the bthrow because of Melee, I'll work on that. As far as stages go, how would Story work as a CP against a Samus? Would the lesser ability to camp be worth the trade of having that really low ceiling? Or would Samus be able to kill to early there for it to be worth it?

 

[Fortress]

Yeah, I do tend to favor the dthrow a lot more than the bthrow because of Melee, I'll work on that. As far as stages go, how would Story work as a CP against a Samus? Would the lesser ability to camp be worth the trade of having that really low ceiling? Or would Samus be able to kill to early there for it to be worth it?

The lower platforms can work in your favor for some gimmicky U-Smash setups, as infrequent as they are. Shorter walls means that you can more reliably fall back on standard F-Air setups. With less room to move around, getting out projectiles on you will be difficult for Samus, but it's not impossible by any means, and can become problematic for you once off-stage when she's got total stage control through tight platform formation.

Yoshi's is a solid pick in that you can kill much earlier than other stages with nearly every option you have. Even D-Smash may net you a KO on this stage.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Can someone give me pointers on the mario matchup? I brought Rolex to game 5 on friday, only to have him switch to mario. I brought him to last stock high percent, but he caught me with an fsmash and I died at 60 percent. Any ideas on dealing with fireball pressure, other than just nairing through? Do needles go through them?

 

[DMG]

Needles should eat them up, the problem obv is that Fireballs are expected to fall from above instead of ground level horizontally. Beating it with needles probably dictates that you jump with Mario, possibly even higher up than he is, and then unleash them.

General tips I know are to SDI out of Dair, that neutral DI gets you out of his Dthrow CG a bit sooner (if he's just taking free hits instead, varying degrees of DI behind tend to be the best at lower %. After that, it's a toss up and he usually gets anything pretty freely guaranteed). You can tilt a lot of his approaches, but you lose if your leg is already stuck out instead of swatting him as he arrives near you, Dair in particular will scoop your limbs pretty well. Dealing with Fireballs might be better if you get good at Dash --> PS, or dashing under if he jumps to use it. SH Fireballs are hard to get around, but you can slowly force him to give up space or allow you to encroach on a good fighting range. This MU will get easier with the probable fireball cooldown nerfs. I'd fear the old version of Mario's/Doc's Dthrow a bit more though, gave him even better CG's on people. I'm glad he doesn't have that, along with these buffs.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Where is the shiek metagame currently? I mean, what combos does she have now that her CG has been taken out (or do you just have to tech chase off of dthrow?). From my understanding (playing and reading), she uses her ftilt/dtilt to pop people into fair. Nair for projectiles. Bair for spacing and gimping. Uair for kills and juggling. Dair for contininuing combos. Needles to camp.

What I am missing is where are her combos? Or should I just tech chase/gimp for all my kills and get stray 2 hit combos for everything else?

 

[Deleted member]

current sheik is all about playing around dtilt for kill setups vs players that know how to DI her throws and ftilts correctly, since characters with better recoveries have gotten more popular. usually this means playing around AC aerial frametraps with surprise interrupts on the OOS game, since it's auto-bad DI on the tilt and a frame advantage whether it hits or not provided you're not being exploited for crouching too much.

aka we do needles grab and tilts into fair like we have been since 2001.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd4CnZRP5XA if you see i get bodied by Denti.

Help with this matchup please.
I know i shouldnt use up bs. I should grab the ledge more instead of trying to needle when they tether. ( use nair or fair fastfall when they tether)
But hey i only have like month experience on this game soo not badd

 

[Deleted member]

tbh you're just being outplayed really bad so it's hard to get anything "character specific" out of that match. you should just play more and get better since texas is like the best PM scene by a lot.

 

[DMG]

Ya idk what to help you with either. I mean I could tell you what to look out for vs Denti, but that's from understanding his playstyle very well and isn't necessarily character specific. The two things that stuck out I guess, were not grabbing enough (or choosing a worse option instead of running up and threatening to grab) and weak edgeguards. It's not always easy to deal with tether stuff, but grabbing the edge and drop off/rising aerials tend to pose a bigger threat than *maybe* landing needle as Ivy recovers.

 

[Plum]

Against tethers I grab the ledge and either drop down with a Nair or Bair if they don't try to snap up, and if they do snap up you can just follow that forced hop with a reverse Fair or something.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

K guys sapphire and I are in the process of making a project M file where each character is there best version. What version was sheik's best version?

 

[Fortress]

K guys sapphire and I are in the process of making a project M file where each character is there best version. What version was sheik's best version?

Trick question; all of them.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Trick question; all of them.

ahhh im guessing sheik is basically like jiggz? (where they're both just melee copy's that never really got nerfed or buffed?)

 

[GunBlaze]

ahhh im guessing sheik is basically like jiggz? (where they're both just melee copy's that never really got nerfed or buffed?)

Nope.

 

[Fortress]

ahhh im guessing sheik is basically like jiggz? (where they're both just melee copy's that never really got nerfed or buffed?)

No, her throws changed kind of drastically, and she's had some very minor tweaks as the time's gone by. Not very huge ones, but they're there. I think any iteration of Sheik in PM is fine, to be honest.

 

[cannedbread]

squirtle matchup, thoughts?

i think it's a little worse than your typical sheik matchup. for one he can crouch her standing grab, ftilt, and needles, his upb is difficult to edgeguard, and his combos are pry good on her. it also feels like he lives deceptively long, but maybe that's because it's hard to combo him. bubble is also really good for keeping sheik out, and his cc game in general is good, so you have to be really tricky to approach him safely.

i"ve had some good result with invincible edgehop nair to edgeguard surf, but unless the hitbox is reversed he'll be living a LONG time. nair in general isn't bad against him. d/bthrow rechchases are good when you actually land a grab on him (his techroll is awful), but he's kind of floaty so he can sometimes break out of stun before you can sheik him ad infinitum. sometimes just running up to him and dsmashing right in his face is good for breaking up crawl camping, but i doubt this is could be a thing. as for stages, i don't like anything with walls because it's even harder to hit him out of surf when he's riding the walls. i initially thought dreamland would be great until i realized how long it takes to kill him, and how early he can kill sheik of he gets a good usmash or something. he's deceptively strong and has great knockback on some of his attacks. so i like neutral-ish stages like battlefield, fd, stadium 2, smashville, and maybe stadium 1. but this could change when and if i play against him more.

 

[Arcalyth]

I sucked at the squirtle mu until I started using shffl Nair. The rest of the stuff you said definitely applies though. Squirtle isn't very hard to gimp just use needles then grab the edge. You can chain grab him for days and he's susceptible to star ko. Joe that helps a bit.

 

[TimeSmash]

How viable is the chain jacket glitch in an actual matchup? Also, can someone give a quick tutorial on how to do it? I've forgotten

 

[GunBlaze]

Is it viable in P:M to begin with?

 

[DMG]

I've only heard of a guy or two using it/able to still use it. If someone could get it off reliably in matches, it's pretty strong. Put her Fair on Chain, and it's more than viable for the edgeguard. Or if they have no projectile and you're on a stage like BF, packing a strong hit could make it very hard to get past.

 

[Twin_A]

Hey guys I'm looking to get some ideas on what to do with Sheik vs Squirtle. Any good videos you can link me to or threads where it is discussed?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Hey all you Sheik mains.

I'm wondering, what is the generally agreed upon best version of Sheik? Did she have anything notable in previous versions (i.e. like Charizard's 2.5 infinite glide) that has since been taken out? I'm making a custom version of P:M with the best versions of all characters in it. Thanks again!

 

[Plum]

Pre-Demo 1.0 Sheik
The point at which she had her tether recovery and Melee Dthrow was pretty hilarious to play as.
I'm pretty hazy regarding the changes to Sheik from 1.0-3.0. There was a version in which she had her Melee throws, wasn't there? There are certain matchups in which her current throws are better than her Melee throws but overall having the chaingrab on most of the cast was pretty crazy.

 

[ECHOnce]

Hey guys I'm looking to get some ideas on what to do with Sheik vs Squirtle. Any good videos you can link me to or threads where it is discussed?

Not the best at this MU either, but a few quick tips in case this isn't in the MU thread:

• Get used to SHFFLing N-airs on reaction; they hit Squirtle out if Side-B at any % and are probably your safest counter to one of Squirtles best tools.

• Squirtle's super armor during his Side-B, F-smash, D-smash, N-air, etc. (any attack during which he retreats into his shell) are only in effect up until certain %s, based on the move you hit him with. E.g. at 0%, N-air, F-air, D-smash, F-tilt (I think?) and others hit him out of super-armor. At 16%, maybe one or two more attacks will always hit him out of attacks that normally have super armor. At 43%, some more. Idk what the actual %s are so those are just random, but you can sort of experiment on your own or mid-match if nobody on the boards knows specifically. Usually by 90-110% pretty much all of your moveset should hit him out I think. Know this from Zelda Board discussions on the MU.

• Squirtles recovery is caught under the edge really easily, so go for stages with no walls. Off the top of my head, in order from worst to not too bad, he suffers on Skyworld, Lylat, Skyloft, Smashville, and Battlefield. PS1 and PS2 sometimes mess him up too if he's not careful. Needling them on these stages often earns and easy kill. Dropping into B-airs with ledge-invincibility works too. Also, if you're within distance to aerial him from behind, punish him hard. Without double jump, Up-B is his only recovery option if he's at stage-level or below, and its stall before moving is easy to exploit into stage-spikes. Most Squirtles are rarely put in that position, but if he fails an edge-guard or you jump further out and than him to B-air before/during his Up-B, go for it.

• If he's killing you with U-smash a lot and want to prioritize your survival over his SDing, try out Green Hill Zone or wherever else has high cielings, but normal to short horizontal boundaries; he lives forever on stages as wide as Dreamland, etc.

• If he's approaching with Side-B, SHFFLed N-air, or F-smash/D-smash out of his long slidey Wavedash, try shield-grabbing. It's easier of you turn so that your back is facing him while he approaches; that way, you can grab him after the hitboxes are safely past you (if he chooses to go through the shield). Just watch out for a follow-up attack of he's Side-B'ing or SHFFLing N-air.

• If Squirtle is close and you're recovering, make sure to only be in range of his Bubble (Down-B) after your Up-B invincibility kicks in. Don't go for platforms above him either; his U-smash has ridiculous reach+power, and can easily cover the whole platform to KO you during landing lag. It also has hitboxes below the edge, so be careful to sweetspot if you think he's about to try catch you with it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it already, but with repeated wavebounce needlecharge cancels -> walljump you can recover almost infinitely along walls. Plus you can really charge the needles while dropping down a bit and then get up agains with that trick.
You need to make sure you don't charge needles full way though because then you can't charge anymore.
Basically, you could mix it in between Shino stalls to charge your needles like half way...

 

[KingsGambit27]

Hey everyone, I'm a relatively new sheik player and I wanted to know about grab options on spacies. They seem to fall too fast to get a reliable combo off of throws. Should I just be tech chasing them or are there other options besides grabs that work well?

 

[SoggyEagle]

We have our local Sheik main playing in the Hot Seat today around 1600 EST: twitch.tv/eaglesmash.

If you would like to watch a PM stream or a Sheik and provide some questions/comments/criticisms, I'm sure he would appreciate it. @Lakitwo

 

[Rarik]

Hey everyone, I'm a relatively new sheik player and I wanted to know about grab options on spacies. They seem to fall too fast to get a reliable combo off of throws. Should I just be tech chasing them or are there other options besides grabs that work well?

Sheik's other options kinda get crapped on by crouch cancelling at low % so you generally want to get grabs and tech chase or needles. However, if they approach with a SH aerial or something similar where they can't crouch cancel, then other options like F-tilt become very good. At higher percents you might be able to combo off a grab, but at low% you have to tech chase.

 

[TimeSmash]

Is there a general How-to-Use-Sheik thread somewhere? Or just a thread that has a collection of Sheik specific ATs and how to use other ATs oriented toward Sheik?

 

[ECHOnce]

Is there a general How-to-Use-Sheik thread somewhere? Or just a thread that has a collection of Sheik specific ATs and how to use other ATs oriented toward Sheik?

Tech-wise, PM Sheik doesn't have many new tricks that weren't in Melee; you probably have a better chance learning Sheik stuff on their boards aha. The major diff you should consider, however, is that her meta revolved around her grab game in NTSC Melee. With her PM D-throw taken from her nerfed PAL version, she has to be played pretty differently in neutral/follow-ups/etc. But tech wise, she's essentially still Melee Sheik (as far as I know).

EDIT: Actually that's sort of wrong lol. Just remembered about some PM jank that was added from Brawl physics that is useful for Sheik. RAR B-airs are amazing; B-air has always been one of her best spacing options, so being able to approach more easily with it now is a pretty nice change. RAR WDing to edgehog is a universal tech the while cast benefits from, but it's significant to Sheik since it sort of invalidates RNCs in most situations. "Poof Pressure" (idk if that's the name PM Sheik boards is rolling with aha) refers to Shino Stalls towards the stage to catch opponents off guard. This was impossible to do in Melee without SDing, since you couldn't grab the ledge again once you reappeared facing away from the stage. There may be more PM-specific Sheik tech, but that's all I can think of atm. Check out @ Chesstiger2612 's post a little above this too. I haven't tried it myself (not that good at wavebouncing lol), but it sounds pretty useful if you can do it.

 

[TimeSmash]

Tech-wise, PM Sheik doesn't have many new tricks that weren't in Melee; you probably have a better chance learning Sheik stuff on their boards aha. The major diff you should consider, however, is that her meta revolved around her grab game in NTSC Melee. With her PM D-throw taken from her nerfed PAL version, she has to be played pretty differently in neutral/follow-ups/etc. But tech wise, she's essentially still Melee Sheik (as far as I know).

I just hate visting the Melee boards for PM stuff haha but thank you regardless! She's someone I've been experimenting with lately.

On a side note I would love to see some sort of buff to her recovery.

 

[Plum]

It's important to note that Dthrow isn't exactly PAL Dthrow. It's been made pretty significantly faster which makes DI'ing on reaction pretty difficult especially if Sheik is mixing up between Dthrow and Bthrow.
Bthrow being the other big change from Melee Sheik. Basically, proper DI for Dthrow that prevents most followups is really bad DI for Bthrow, and vice versa. So if they DI expecting a Dthrow (which is very difficult to do on reaction now) and you Bthrow, you basically get to do whatever the hell you want to them for free.

As far as Brawl techs, I find myself most using RAR, turn around grabs, and Brawl's improved B reversal mechanics. Turn around grabs should not be confused with pivot grabs; they were called pivot grabs in Brawl iirc but they differ from the already existing pivot grabs in Melee. In Melee a pivot grab is a standing grab performed on the pivot frame of your dash, whereas a turn around grab is the unique grab from Brawl when you grab and turn around at the same time. Melee has turnaround B moves, an already useful technique for Sheik when used with needles and needle cancels; performed by flicking the analog in the opposite direction before using a special. Brawl adds B reversals when you flick the analog after using a special. A turnaround B preserves whatever momentum you have, but a B reversal switches your momentum in the opposite direction.
For Sheik, there really isn't a case where switching her momentum is useful because her only good special to reverse/turnaround is needles which cancels your momentum on use. However, you can do turnaround needles on the ground which can be done out of a run.
Oh, and crawling is a great movement option for Sheik. You can straight up dodge a lot of cheese with crawling because it's so low. Especially if stages that have slants/slopes are legal (though they are often banned it seems ).
I think that's basically the gist of PM Sheik vs Melee Sheik. Almost everything you'll see about Melee Sheik applies here though, at least as far as generally playing the character is concerned. Obviously a lot of matchup stuff doesn't apply fully anymore because of new characters and massively buffed/changed characters. But for just general Sheik theory and things to practice you really can't go wrong with what already exists for Melee Sheik.
And listen to @Umbreon because that dude understands Smash and Sheik in general better than maybe 99% of people.

 

[Deleted member]

DI down prevents solid followups from both dthrow and bthrow so it's never really a proper 50/50 in your favor. also, most good opponents will be crouching most of the match vs sheik anyway, and de facto buffer down DI on grabs anyway. that's one of many reason i base my throw of choice on stage positioning or the different release points rather than trying to "trick the opponent".

 

[TimeSmash]

Are there and follow-ups to Fthrow? It's a throw that intrigues me haha

 

[Chesstiger2612]

DI down prevents solid followups from both dthrow and bthrow so it's never really a proper 50/50 in your favor. also, most good opponents will be crouching most of the match vs sheik anyway, and de facto buffer down DI on grabs anyway. that's one of many reason i base my throw of choice on stage positioning or the different release points rather than trying to "trick the opponent".

You can still followup with needles if you charged some, can't you?

 

[shairn]

Are there and follow-ups to Fthrow? It's a throw that intrigues me haha

No. Neither fthrow nor uthrow have reliable followups, though at least fthrow can send your opponent a significant distance from the ledge which gives it some marginal use.

 

[Plum]

Eh, if they're at the ledge I think Dthrow is just better than Fthrow anyways. If they DI to stay close to the ledge you get a followup, and if they DI to avoid followups they are putting themselves away from the stage in a similar position to where Fthrow would have put them.
Uthrow has some use when platforms are involved. You can force your opponent onto a platform for an easy tech chase scenario.