Sheik Patch Changes Discussion

[suarsuar]

Having mained Sheik throughout Brawl, the level of complaints there are for Sheik now having a weaker bair given the rest of her character's inherent qualities never stops amusing me. I guess the nerf removes her only really killing aerial that happened to have both immense range and safety, but she still got plenty of reward for making correct reads, none of which have been nerfed (and according to suarsuar, two of which have been buffed a bit).

This.

When I was thinking about the patch I reckoned they'd have to do A LOT to dismantle her from top 3.

We still have:
- the best recovery in game in terms of variation, near impossible to gimp well
- jab resets
- jab to grab
- 6-11 hit guaranteed strings which can carry off stage
- Vanish in general
- Vanish autocancel
- priority with Bouncing Fish
- needle camping
- Camping in general for an a g g r o character
- burst grenade frame traps
- uair resets
- great pivot grab
- platform advantage with utilt and usmash
- stage presence
- barely any bad match ups and even then her primary one, Diddy, was nerfed
- wall jump
- wall c l i n g
- 4th lowest crouch
- crawling enabled
- crawl sliding
- a conversion on every throw under 20%
- the most impressive frame data on every aerial, save for bair, in line with Luigi, Yoshi, and Mario
- the ability to reset the neutral whenever she chooses by being able to stall off stage or ecescape strings with bouncing fish
- not floaty and not light but instead midweight
- intimidating aerial speed

And the list goes on.

They could never ruin her unless they addressed a majority of these points.

I'm not losing sleeping or matches over bair being weak.

We need to be creative.

EDIT: Also, the environment in which Sheik is in is one in which no other character can compare with the amount of options she has.

If everyone else were able to do these things to some degree I would agree that she is lackluster.

 

[Estryark]

That's cool but a part of me will sure miss killing from edge trumping > bair. Granted it was a little broken.

 

[ArikadoSD]

This.

When I was thinking about the patch I reckoned they'd have to do A LOT to dismantle her from top 3.

We still have:
- the best recovery in game in terms of variation, near impossible to gimp well
- jab resets
- jab to grab
- 6-11 hit guaranteed strings which can carry off stage
- Vanish in general
- Vanish autocancel
- priority with Bouncing Fish
- needle camping
- Camping in general for an a g g r o character
- burst grenade frame traps
- uair resets
- great pivot grab
- platform advantage with utilt and usmash
- stage presence
- barely any bad match ups and even then her primary one, Diddy, was nerfed
- wall jump
- wall c l i n g
- 4th lowest crouch
- crawling enabled
- crawl sliding
- a conversion on every throw under 20%
- the most impressive frame data on every aerial, save for bair, in line with Luigi, Yoshi, and Mario
- the ability to reset the neutral whenever she chooses by being able to stall off stage or ecescape strings with bouncing fish
- not floaty and not light but instead midweight
- intimidating aerial speed

And the list goes on.

They could never ruin her unless they addressed a majority of these points.

I'm not losing sleeping or matches over bair being weak.

We need to be creative.

EDIT: Also, the environment in which Sheik is in is one in which no other character can compare with the amount of options she has.

If everyone else were able to do these things to some degree I would agree that she is lackluster.

A lot of that list is too situational to be of any use on-paper. Vanish autocancel isn't exactly big because you still have to drop from a specific distance and that can be punished, or you can land on the stage and that has lag. According to wasserwipf, both of those actions take like 94 frames or something.

Burst grenade is... well its burst grenade, it's the definition of situational.

And about her being midweight, I'd say she's actually light, but I guess that could be a perception or something. On the weight rankings she's the 12th lightest which doesn't seem to be in the middle for me.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't ONLY kill with Bair, but it was my go-to kill move and it was extremely good at that. They removed that, and now I (and many others I'm sure) no longer have a go-to kill move and have to rely on kill setups or gimping, which I relied on before also but in addition to having a kill move.

I hope you can realize why losing Bair as a kill move really sucks.

I know I'll get replies like "adapt" or "do other things" and I WILL, but I'm just saying, because people in this thread seem to be acting like losing it wasn't that much of a big deal when in fact it really is.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I might actually like that bair -> BF is a thing now lol. Especially since after being hit by BF a lot of people try to come right back in which positions yourself for another bair into BF lmao. Also give it time and people will stop airdodging into usmash and up-b. My main issue with the bair nerf is how trumping isn't as worth going for now especially since the trump itself is not even guaranteed. I just have this feeling that with bair being meh and how everything else is situational, not legit, or requiring of a hard read that Sheik is going to be even more of a victim to rage lol.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I might actually like that bair -> BF is a thing now lol. Especially since after being hit by BF a lot of people try to come right back in which positions yourself for another bair into BF lmao. Also give it time and people will stop airdodging into usmash and up-b. My main issue with the bair nerf is how trumping isn't as worth going for now especially since the trump itself is not even guaranteed. I just have this feeling that with bair being meh and how everything else is situational, not legit, or requiring of a hard read that Sheik is going to be even more of a victim to rage lol.

Speaking about trumping, this might sound situational and off-topic especially since I haven't tested it yet but pre-patch I was able to trump and let people grab the ledge again, dtilt from the stage (no invincibility when they re-grab) and then turn around bair. I guess it's possible to use this for positional advantage and to get your opponent off-stage again. And maybe instead of bair we could try fair, nair, or something else I dunno.

 

[suarsuar]

A lot of that list is too situational to be of any use on-paper. Vanish autocancel isn't exactly big because you still have to drop from a specific distance and that can be punished, or you can land on the stage and that has lag. According to wasserwipf, both of those actions take like 94 frames or something.

Burst grenade is... well its burst grenade, it's the definition of situational.

And about her being midweight, I'd say she's actually light, but I guess that could be a perception or something. On the weight rankings she's the 12th lightest which doesn't seem to be in the middle for me.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't ONLY kill with Bair, but it was my go-to kill move and it was extremely good at that. They removed that, and now I (and many others I'm sure) no longer have a go-to kill move and have to rely on kill setups or gimping, which I relied on before also but in addition to having a kill move.

I hope you can realize why losing Bair as a kill move really sucks.

I know I'll get replies like "adapt" or "do other things" and I WILL, but I'm just saying, because people in this thread seem to be acting like losing it wasn't that much of a big deal when in fact it really is.

Sorry if I was unclear but I was agreeing with you and running with your point about Sheik still being filled with tools despite the nerf.

I will miss bair as well but it's not over like you said. :D

 

[iAft3rbang]

Bair being nerfed... does that mean stage spike is gone ?

 

[Superbat]

You guys are still the best. You have all the options but you have to work for it a bit more. Sheik is a pretty solid and balanced best character. Not salty with Sheik being the ssb4 overlord. She bodies most of the cast but she doesn't invalidate like other best smash character.

 

[KingofSarus]

So nothing has really changed then? Phew...

 

[exnecross]

So nothing has really changed then? Phew...

Err, a lot has changed. This bair nerf is actually very significant. It removes her only air kill option. It hurts her ability to edge guard, and get kills from it. It lowers our damage output over all. It brings us down from 3 effective kill moves to 2.

B air was one of Sheik's best moves, and it has received one of the largest nerfs in Sm4sh history. The distance that KB was reduced by is actually kind of insane, I think it was nerfed even more than Diddy's U-air but I can't verify that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread truly amuses me.

Look at the Diddy nerf thread. Sheik players have no right to complain.

 

[KingofSarus]

Err, a lot has changed. This bair nerf is actually very significant. It removes her only air kill option. It hurts her ability to edge guard, and get kills from it. It lowers our damage output over all. It brings us down from 3 effective kill moves to 2.

B air was one of Sheik's best moves, and it has received one of the largest nerfs in Sm4sh history. The distance that KB was reduced by is actually kind of insane, I think it was nerfed even more than Diddy's U-air but I can't verify that.

Damn, I just glanced at the changes. I didn't know the KB was THAT badly nerfed. (I don't own the game to test it out) I'm personally more of a Vanish/Bouncing Fish killer, but now I'm a bit upset, but I'll live.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Tell me they took the windbox off her up-b.

 

[exnecross]

Tell me they took the windbox off her up-b.

I haven't tested it myself, but I haven't seen anyone talking about a vanish nerf.

 

[EpixAura]

People are forgetting how useful Uair is. The Bair nerf is definitely a big hit, though. I can see the Sheik metagame becoming slower and campier in a lot of matchups to compensate for the lack of kill potential. It's very common for things like Sheik dittos to almost go to time, and with even less kill potential, this is probably going to be happening a lot more. May as well take advantage of the clock.

 

[Estryark]

Err, a lot has changed. This bair nerf is actually very significant. It removes her only air kill option. It hurts her ability to edge guard, and get kills from it. It lowers our damage output over all. It brings us down from 3 effective kill moves to 2.

B air was one of Sheik's best moves, and it has received one of the largest nerfs in Sm4sh history. The distance that KB was reduced by is actually kind of insane, I think it was nerfed even more than Diddy's U-air but I can't verify that.

I agree that it sucks losing that kill option in the air, but what about U-air? That's still one, granted I praised the B-Air more...
If we can do new follow-ups from a B-air then it's fine for our damage output. Let's just test it out for a few days and not get on our high horse. On my side, I will miss trumping with it.

 

[Absol]

who cares. just out safe the entire cast, get them to 170% and ftilt to kill them. we still have vanish, and still have bouncing fish, even needles>bouncing fish. or just make fair fresh once you get them into the percent of no return and kill with that when you're edge guarding. We can still kill with fsmash as well. hell tipper dtilt to uair is still a thing, as well as inner ftilt to uair. Just keep that uair fresh and rage will do the rest.

big deal we cant kill as easily, but everyone signed up for that once you decided to play sheik. We got knocback nerfs in the 3ds version, and yet sheik still was top tier. It may be too early to say but I think we got our throne back.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Tell me they took the windbox off her up-b.

nope

 

[exnecross]

get them to 170% and ftilt to kill them.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the advice. I'll just get them to 170% to kill.

 

[HarajukuNinja]

To be honest, I'm just happy they didn't mess with her frame data. Sheik may have an even harder time killing, but kill power was never her forte to begin with. Her combo potential is great, and her off-stage game is still amazing despite the b-air nerf. Plus, none of her techs were removed as far as I know.

I was expecting for her to be nerfed much worse than this, but I'm glad it wasn't the case

 

[DEEK4Y]

This thread truly amuses me.

Look at the Diddy nerf thread. Sheik players have no right to complain.

Pretty unfair statement considering sheik received the Diddy treatment last balance patch. It's really easy to say that if you don't remember BF killing at 85% and uair having 5 hits instead of 4 among several others.

 

[Absol]

Oh, ok. Thanks for the advice. I'll just get them to 170% to kill.

Anytime kid

 

[bastula]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I never used b-air to kill (u-pair, bouncing fish, nair, a mix of some moves up until high percentage honesty) so if this is her only change, I'm totally okay with it.

 

[exnecross]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I never used b-air to kill (u-pair, bouncing fish, nair, a mix of some moves up until high percentage honesty) so if this is her only change, I'm totally okay with it.

What did you stage spike with? F air?

 

[?.?]

Huzzah, this is an amazing balance patch... Subtle change to make people complain less while not really altering the character too much... We just have to play smarter and rely on those kill setups, and now we have another combo tool under our belt in the form of bair. Awesome! Can't wait to play this sheik. :D

 

[exnecross]

Huzzah, this is an amazing balance patch... Subtle change to make people complain less while not really altering the character too much... We just have to play smarter and rely on those kill setups, and now we have another combo tool under our belt in the form of bair. Awesome! Can't wait to play this sheik. :D

This has made Sheik mains complain that they have lost a kill move while killing was already a struggle, and non-Sheiks are still complaining that she is too safe on top of now complaining that she needed to be nerfed more.

If anything, it has increased the complaining.

 

[shadowdude]

I personally think the Nerf wasn't bad at all.sure it did take out a kill move but it also allows even more combo's,so I view it as a win.I actually was afraid it was going to be horrible,i'm glad it wasn't

 

[?.?]

This has made Sheik mains complain that they have lost a kill move while killing was already a struggle, and non-Sheiks are still complaining that she is too safe on top of now complaining that she needed to be nerfed more.

If anything, it has increased the complaining.

Well all those complaints are people just being salty and not good reasons to complain, who cares we lost a kill move? We've always had trouble killing and while this doesn't make it any easier, it doesn't make it much harder considering our ability to setup kills and this will allow us to setup even more. If people complain she needed to be nerfed more I point them to the 1.04 patch and say suck it up. she's quite balanced for a top tier character. Top tiers always exist and people just need to realize sheik is sm4shes. Plus I think most sm4sh sheik mains should go play brawl and try her there to understand just how lucky we are now.

tl;dr: people who complain now are going to get ignored lol.

 

[exnecross]

Well all those complaints are people just being salty and not good reasons to complain, who cares we lost a kill move? We've always had trouble killing and while this doesn't make it any easier, it doesn't make it much harder considering our ability to setup kills and this will allow us to setup even more. If people complain she needed to be nerfed more I point them to the 1.04 patch and say suck it up. she's quite balanced for a top tier character. Top tiers always exist and people just need to realize sheik is sm4shes. Plus I think most sm4sh sheik mains should go play brawl and try her there to understand just how lucky we are now.

tl;dr: people who complain now are going to get ignored lol.

I agree that she could have been nerfed far worse and we pretty much dodged a bullet, so over all I am happy with this patch. I've been playing Sheik since 2001 and I feel like this is the best she's ever been. She's definitely weaker than she was before the patch though, I can't see why anyone would deny that. Although I don't have any real numbers, I'd imagine at least 25% of my kills were from bair, if not more. Those won't be happening any more.

 

[?.?]

@ exnecross yeah the same for me, plus gotta love those random kills you weren't expecting from a bair. :D But still I've always gotten my kills like I did in brawl (setups) and I never really relied on bair unless I REALLY needed it. So this patch was perfect for me, I've always used bair as a combo tool anyways lol. I also don't think anyone is denying she's weaker now, but overall compared to the rest of the cast I don't think it's enough to matter.

 

[exnecross]

The bair nerf is going to have a very real and noticeable effect on my play style. I abused the hell out of it from ledge, went for stage spikes on recovering opponents whenever I had the chance, often ran off ledge when opponent got back up and nailed them with a bair, among other things. Sometimes I just threw them out on the ground just to change things up. It's going to be hard to adapt.

 

[Uncertain Title]

I should be upset about B-Air's KB being nerfed, but I kinda like the challenge it brings.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Sheik is completely fine with this new patch, Bouncing Fish and the Needles are still great tools~
It's really the Needles being left unchanged (so far it seems atleast) which helps; Needles completely cripple some characters going up against her making them one sided matches.

But I dont believe Sheik really needs any significant nerfs, (except maybe Needles) and I didnt think Diddy needed to be nerfed as much as he did either. If good characters keep getting nerfed with future patches, we will all end up with brawl 2.0

What I do believe in is buffing the lower performing characters so everyone comboes well & has good offensive options making for a faster paced game~

 

[?.?]

I got some practice in tonight with the new bair and I absolutely love it, it's a wonderful tool with great range. I can see some amazing potential with this and I can't wait to play around with it more. Just for an example, against one of my more casual friends I pulled off this string left side FD, d-throw (they di'ed towards me)>fh past them bair>fairx3 string>empty sh airdodge bait>BF I started the combo at around 30-40 which is what was so wonderful about that as usually when I bair at that point they get knocked too far away for me to do anything, but now it's almost perfect plus it's so fast an option (assuming still frame 4) that most people won't DI it properly unless they anticipate.

 

[Judo777]

I just find it funny, that Nintendo chose to try to hit our kill power again, instead of addressing the things that makes her strong.

It would be like "little mac is too strong on stage, lets make him even worse offstage." Oh wait they did that last time, nevermind..... lol

 

[hankydysplasia]

From @Thinkaman, the guy who has been testing on 2 consoles all day:
Vanish and Bouncing Fish were NOT buffed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-thread.398902/page-21#post-18998802

 

[Estryark]

you can now RAR soft B-airs into bouncing fish when your F-airs sends them too far. That's kind of neat. It's way more reliable than soft N-air.

 

[Tristan_win]

Fresh Tipper Bair with Sheik at 0% use to kill Diddy kong stand on the edge of FD with no DI at 94% (By kill I mean he would die on the horizontal blast zone and not bottom or diagonal)

Now it's 128%

Fresh Bair (non tipper) with Sheik at 0% use to kill Diddy kong stand on the edge of FD with no DI at 103%

now it's 143%

...That ****ing hurts.

No change in killing % with uair.
no changes in killing % with vanish.


I just realize I had a easier way to test this.

3Ds training mode, results when the kill effect appeared
November 25 2014
April 16th 2015

• Usmash 102% off the top on battle field
• Fsmash 108%
• Vanish 112%
• Tipper Strong Bair 121% 164%
  
• Dsmash 128% (more knock back, worst trajectory then usmash)
• Usmash side hit 130%
• Bouncing fish 131%
• Strong Bair 133% 184%
  
• Side B 136% 131%? ...Once again roughly due to the windbox
• Uair Top of Battlefield platform at 140% 167%?? I must of mess up on this one ....roughly...
• Vanish Center of FD 138%
• Fsmash Center of FD 157%
• Tipper Strong Bair Center of FD 163%
• Bouncing fish Center of FD 174%
• Dsmash Center of FD 174%
• Side hit Usmash Center of FD 175%
• Strong Nair 177%
• Fair 179%
• Uair 184% (tested at the same height as Usmash, on Battlefield)
• Jab finisher 205% ....roughly....
• Tipper Ftilt off the top 209%
• Dair 201% off the top, not spike hitbox.
• Dash 222%
• Utilt 230%
• Tipper Dtilt off the top 264% 278%

That's all the changes I see with knock back.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

oh great even less kill options. i feel so sorry for you guys. finishing with sheik was bad enough when i used to main her before even this option was taken.

 

[suarsuar]

From @Thinkaman, the guy who has been testing on 2 consoles all day:
Vanish and Bouncing Fish were NOT buffed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-thread.398902/page-21#post-18998802

He's right, I'm bad.