WondrousMoose
Mind the antlers
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2014
- Messages
- 834
- Location
- College Station, TX
- NNID
- WondrousMoose
- 3DS FC
- 3024-5909-8345
Holy crap, it's a string of Pokemon avatars. I don't actually have anything to contribute.
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I checked post-patch and the combo started as early as 16%; it all depends on the hit and positioning.So far the change in sheik's fair doesn't seem to have changed much off her combos. Though on Mario, Sheik's fair to bouncing fish connects at 30% and up idk if that worked before, if it did someone let me know so I can avoid looking stupid in the future.
That's great since it deals more than f-throw to bouncing and is slightly easier to land.I checked post-patch and the combo started as early as 16%; it all depends on the hit and positioning.
Her landing lag with Fair is 11 now instead of 10, however you can auto-cancel it so you have no lagDo you mean landing lag, or the fair itself has 11
Of course, Shiek is fine. She's doing GREAT.Sheik is fine. You have to work for your kills and she dies easily. Yeah, you rack up tons of damage, but it takes forever to kill someone when most of the roster has easier kill moves overall.
Hate to burst your bubble but there HAS to be a best character in the game, theres no avoiding it. If they nerf sheik into oblivion then another character will step up into her spot and dominate the rest of the cast. Its just the way things work. Sure it sucks that characters are invalidated because of a certain best character, and it would be great if every character was viable but that is not the case. There will always be characters that arent really usable and thats just how things are :/ What we really need is not nerfs, but buffs to the lower tiers instead. That would help the game much more than just "OmG shEiK is OP nerfffff!!!!!!!!" (and Im not talking about you, im talking about the community in general )Of course, Shiek is fine. She's doing GREAT.
It's the characters she invalidates that aren't doing so hot.
The problem is not that Shiek has to work for kills (though that 50/50 down throw makes it easier). The problem is that EVERYONE ELSE has to work for kills against Shiek. Shiek is both a highly offensive AND defensive character at the same time.
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I'm sorry, but that's just not true.Hate to burst your bubble but there HAS to be a best character in the game, theres no avoiding it. If they nerf sheik into oblivion then another character will step up into her spot and dominate the rest of the cast. Its just the way things work.
I'm unclear: was this aimed at me? I never said anything about bouncing fish so I'm assuming not...Why would you add more lag to bouncing fish when you can easily get a huge punish by spotdodging it.
Oh, I know. As I said, it's not JUST Sheik that's the issue here. Just making a point about how some characters can heavily invalidate large parts of the roster.The thing is, the characters that Sheik 'invalidates' also do terrible against all other top tiers..
@ S_B you mentioned Bowser, but Bowser eats **** against all of: Rosalina, Luigi, ZSS, and probably Pikachu. It just so happens that Sheik is another bad matchup and she's also the #1.. I don't get the point there.
All other heavies are also eaten alive by Luigi and ZSS.
Wellllll..... I wouldn't call this patch minimal.With the minimal changes in this patch (other than Fox's sad nerf) i'm hoping that it indicates it's the last balance patch or one of the last at least.
You say that but it just doesnt make any sense. If sheik is removed from the game, Rosa would be the best character in the game as of now. Then what would low tier players do? They would complain about rosa. "omg nerf rosa shes too strong" Then say you remove rosa. Then you have luigi and pikachu and low tier character players complaing "omg nerf them they are too strong". Its just an endless cycle of complaining and demanding nerfs because that player is too lazy to adapt and git gud to be able to beat that character or just switch to a better character. Again, it would be awesome if every character in the game was viable but thats not the case. Some characters are just inferior to other characters unfortunately and you just have to deal with that.I'm sorry, but that's just not true.
If Shiek were removed from the game, Diddy's frame data isn't going to magically improve itself. Might more players flock to Diddy? Sure, but if he's not the one invalidating a large chunk of the cast, those cast members will become more viable (probably not massively so, but still more viable).
Not saying that Sheik is to blame for everything: many of the lower tiers are there because they need tweaks and buffs of their own and we're slowly seeing them receive those tweaks.
But in the end, it'd be easier to nerf the best characters down to mid tier than it would be to try to bring the 30+ other characters up to high tier, especially when doing so would very likely result in overpowering those characters in casual play.
But truth be told, I'd be surprised if we actually saw any more Sheik nerfs. Sakurai has made it clear that he's balancing the game for group play more than competitive play (even though it IS possible to do both) and the fact that Shiek dominates at the high end probably means very little to him in the long run.
First of all, I'm not actually suggesting the removal of any characters from the game. I feel the need to clarify that.You say that but it just doesnt make any sense. If sheik is removed from the game, Rosa would be the best character in the game as of now.
...Or look forward to balance patches working to change this fact (which they slowly but surely are).Some characters are just inferior to other characters unfortunately and you just have to deal with that.
This talk about "invalidating" characters needs to stop. By virtue of being a high-tier character, Sheik "invalidates" low-tier characters. That's just how it works. To complain about Sheik's lack of bad matchups is irrelevant, as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.Both Rosalina and Shiek invalidate a lot of characters. The big difference is Rosalina has actual bad matchups.
I'm sorry, but "invalidate" is still very much the correct term. You don't need to have a 0-death combo on a character in order to make labbing with that character a general exercise in futility. If the skill gap needed to beat one character with another character is THAT much higher, there's no point to attempting to main that character (at least not with any real expectations of taking tournaments).This talk about "invalidating" characters needs to stop. By virtue of being a high-tier character, Sheik "invalidates" low-tier characters. That's just how it works. To complain about Sheik's lack of bad matchups is irrelevant, as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.
Do you want to beat Sheik? Learn Lucario. Learn Mario. Get good. If you were using a living turd with 300-frame attacks against her and complaining about Sheik, I'd be only slightly more annoyed.
If you want to talk about invalidating characters, look at Melee Sheik, whose chain grab literally made half the cast useless.
This actually isn't strictly true, either.as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.
Nono I think you misunderstood me heh. I was saying "if you remove ___" in theory referring to when you said "if sheik is removed from the game people flock to diddy..etc"First of all, I'm not actually suggesting the removal of any characters from the game. I feel the need to clarify that.
Second, I'm also not saying that there aren't characters that still give lower tiers a whole pile of trouble (I mentioned this earlier, in fact).
What I AM saying is that, if Diddy's matchup with DK is 70:30 and Rosalina's matchup with DK is 60:40, removing Diddy from the game doesn't suddenly make Rosa's matchup with DK 70:30.
Ah, I understand now.Nono I think you misunderstood me heh. I was saying "if you remove ___" in theory referring to when you said "if sheik is removed from the game people flock to diddy..etc"
This is true, and frankly, I once was of the opinion that we had to let the meta have more time to develop, but these days, players are AMAZING at figuring out where the potential a character lies and exploiting it.And also they are getting slightly better with buffing the low tier characters who need buffs which is a good sign. We need more of that and less nerfs. If something is just stupidly broken, then yes nerf it but there arent many, if any at all, stupidly broken things right now and the more low tier buffs we get and people gradually getting better will make people realize that what they previously thought was broken isnt actually broken, they just had to learn how to adapt to it.
@Tristan_win save us plsCan we lock this thread already lol
You're doomed!!!@Tristan_win save us pls
Save you from WHAT, exactly? Discussing Sheik's changes and whether or not Sheik needs further changes, as well as the overall scope of changes to other characters that will directly affect Sheik?@Tristan_win save us pls
I suppose you are correct, the discussion should stay along the lines of patch notes. Any other discussion needs to be taken to the appropriate threads.This thread turned from patch notes and how sheik should adapt to match up/tier speculations and "what ifs"
No!!!! MU thread!!Okay if we really wanna discuss new matchups, how is Robin shaping up?
The mu against robin used to be pretty damn bad for Robin if the Sheik player is smart not to approach in neutral, because otherwise Levin Sword just eats us alive, and now it's probably scarier than ever with the new buffs.
I haven't really looked in-detail at the buffs or played a Robin/seen one play but I've seen a few clips and heard about the buffs and apparently she can do stuff like dthrow uair at kill percents and dthrow jab, and arcthunder > arcfire > uair or usmash is a true combo and it is extremely scary because that racks up a lot of damage AND kills ridiculously early, 80% range.
I'll make one. I'm posting here so that no one else starts one and we end up with two.What needs to be done is that a patch thread needs to be created that catalogues all the patch changes per update. This hypothetical thread would be stickied.
Thank you moose.I'll make one. I'm posting here so that no one else starts one and we end up with two.